The Spanish property market in 2010

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  • #55619
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    Anonymous
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    This thread is for discussing the Spanish property market in general terms this year. For specific regional discussions see the regional forums.

  • #98642
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    Anonymous
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    To my surprise I have learnt that the property glut in and around Madrid, where there was a lot of new build in recent years, is being mopped up by demand, slowly but surely. Big discounts are playing their part, of course, but it suggest the domestic market isn’t as bad as previously thought.

  • #98841
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    Anonymous
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    Had lunch with a Catalan developer today. Builds middle class or cheaper property in Catalonia, nothing to do with holiday homes.

    Last sale he made was in 2006. He says he is typical of the sector.

    Now he has put all his stock on the market at mortgage cost. Not even a bite.

    He has a plot of land with a mortgage for 700k. He’d happily sell for 500k, and give 200k of his own money to the bank to cover the negative equity. He thinks the value of the land will go to close to zero. He was offered 3 million for the land at the top of the market.

    Interesting times.

  • #98874
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    Anonymous
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    I regularly check the local on-line agents & sites like fotocasa, idealista & segundamano.

    I’m getting the feeling that asking prices are falling more quickly recently. Even week on week it looks like there is capitulation with more sellers. I wonder how sensitive this market is to events such as Spain’s credit rating, I always assumed that sellers were not following this stuff too closely, now I’m not so sure.

    Of course my searches are a small sample.

    Is there any empirical evidence to support this view?

  • #98876
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    Anonymous
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    Anciano, any chance you can keep us updated here with some of your findings in future? For example changing numbers of listings, or examples of prices falling?

  • #98878
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    Anonymous
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    I’m not normally that organised 🙂 , but I will try and keep a few records & see if we can track what is happening.

  • #99557
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    Anonymous
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    Hi,

    As a Spanish builder, I would like to share some “insight” (there ain’t no better place than here I suppose). We have felt a very big dip in sales this year, more than last year. We have been able to make up lost ground with VPO (subsidised apartments) which has done fairly well with young local people.
    What we have seen is a total absence of UK buyers in the 200 + Euro properties on the Costa Blanca. We can’t find them anywhere, not at exhibitions, on the web, through agents…etc, so we don’t really expect to have UK clients in the near future as our starting price is 250,000 €.
    Let me know if you would like to know more about what I think about the spanish market.

  • #99559
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    Anonymous
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    Interesting comments Marjal. Good ‘insight’. Professionals at the coal face who tell it like it is are always welcome in here.

    What you say makes sense and confirms what I have heard from other sources (about the Costa Blanca). However, I also hear that British buyers are active below €100k in places like Torrevieja.

    In some other regions and segments, I hear things are picking up a little bit.

    Mark

  • #99562
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    Anonymous
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    Yes Mark, I agree absolutely about the low price bracket demand. I am in Guardamar (not La Marina), which although close to Torrevieja, is a different ball game all together. We seem unable to attract the mid-high buyer from the UK market, these prefering to go to Altea, Calpe or Costa del Sol or Mallorca. I would understand due to location but we don’t have the same attitude with Dutch, Russians or Belgian clients which seems strange.
    CAM banks repos and Bancaja have made huge efforts to off load (what I consider) below standard resales which has a market certain markets.
    People are still getting old in the UK and the weather is still good in Spain, so there is a type of buyer that will move out at all costs no matter where they have to live as long as they can afford it and their pension allows them to get by.

  • #99566
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    Anonymous
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    @marjal wrote:

    We seem unable to attract the mid-high buyer from the UK market, these prefering to go to Altea, Calpe

    But, when given a choice, the mid-high buyer tends to gravitate toward the Northern CB, and always has done.

    Certainly from my experience, they have.

  • #99568
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    Anonymous
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    @marjal wrote:

    Yes Mark, I agree absolutely about the low price bracket demand. I am in Guardamar (not La Marina), which although close to Torrevieja, is a different ball game all together. We seem unable to attract the mid-high buyer from the UK market, these prefering to go to Altea, Calpe or Costa del Sol or Mallorca. I would understand due to location but we don’t have the same attitude with Dutch, Russians or Belgian clients which seems strange.
    CAM banks repos and Bancaja have made huge efforts to off load (what I consider) below standard resales which has a market certain markets.
    People are still getting old in the UK and the weather is still good in Spain, so there is a type of buyer that will move out at all costs no matter where they have to live as long as they can afford it and their pension allows them to get by.

    this has been one of the problems people moving out at all costs,now pensions don’t go as far, so they need to keep some of the capital they have to live on.So they go to the cheaper areas.The ones who can afford it go to the nicer areas (although i would not now class calpe as one of these,my in laws had a place in appollo 5 and from their balcony you could see the rock,salt flats flamingos etc now all you can see is villas and tower blocks)

  • #99570
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    Anonymous
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    The only way is down and that’s also for 2011 I’d say.

    Examples here in Sanlucar de Barrameda, mainly Spanish town, the locals won’t reduce prices.

    UK seller – Town house 4bed 120m2 with communal pool, private terrace, underground parking, storage room. Now available at 180k. Owner did accept 174k but buyers own sale fell through, bank won’t give mortgage…! Seven years same properties available at 140k, in 2008 sold two for 240k. In the same development a Spanish seller with a 3 bed apartment 85m2 and the same facilities apart from a shared terrace wants 240k.

    Villas on golf course, purchase price 3 years ago 500k, sold one this year for 300k UK seller, have others on sale at 350k negotiable no takers, Developers sold their remaining ones at around 250k early this year.

    Ian

  • #99571
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    Anonymous
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    The Spanish property market is dogged by repossessions, a collapse of the construction industry, 22% unemployment and enough bad publicity to last for another generation. A lot of fuss is made on this forum about the misfortunes of UK buyers in recent years, but most of it is irrelevant to the larger picture.

    The simple basics apply, land has got too expensive along with building costs, while salaries remain proportionally lower.

    From a Spanish point of view, a retreat to family values is appropriate, back to the old ways, children stay at home for longer and no longer hanker to buy unaffordable city apartments.

    The foreigners will still come over to buy at the cheaper end, but Marbella and places like it will die.

  • #99574
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    Actually, I wanted to make the point that UK buyers have never really been interested in the type of properties I build when they spend a lot more in areas such as Calpe, Altea..etc, for something which is smaller and with no innovation in design and quality (not bad just run of the mill). Like I said, I find it strange that I am able to sell to Dutch, Russians, Belgians and Scandinavians yet to the brits it is no go. I am not sure if the proximity of Torrevieja and its 15% commission rates and my refusal to pay these demands to agents, has just put off the Torrevieja and surrounding area agents. I am not pointing the finger, just questioning why brits don’t buy from me.

  • #99576
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    angie
    Spectator

    Marjal, it’s quite likely that the Brits are not buying because of the poor exchange rate, whereas a lot of your clients are in the Euro.

    Maybe Brits are more aware now of possible pitfalls and rogues too, ( A lot of bad Press and exposes) and no longer have the confidence to buy as they once did in numbers.

  • #99577
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    Hi Angie,

    The problem with that idea is that poor exchange rates has not stopped brits buying in other areas. Even with good exchange rates, brits have never been an important market for me and I have been brought up in the UK so I would have thought I had some kind of insight into their preferences. The Netherlands and Belgium have had their fair share of recession as well and although their numbers have dropped, they still demand a property well over the average any brit will enquire about. Even if we go to the GdP of each country, there are no huge differences. My theory is that the majority of UK agents got into offering south CB (Torrevieja, Orihuela Costa and some parts of Murcia and Almeria) solely for the commission rate, preferring to offer cheaper properties to the general UK public and forgetting altogether about niche clients, the result being that in the UK the south CB is considered as “naf” and the north CB as a class product. I am not criticising what has happened, just trying to understand why mid-higher end properties are impossible to sell to the brits in the south CB.

  • #99575
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    @marjal wrote:

    ….My theory is that the majority of UK agents got into offering south CB (Torrevieja, Orihuela Costa and some parts of Murcia and Almeria) solely for the commission rate, preferring to offer cheaper properties to the general UK public and forgetting altogether about niche clients, the result being that in the UK the south CB is considered as “naf” and the north CB as a class product. I am not criticising what has happened, just trying to understand why mid-higher end properties are impossible to sell to the brits in the south CB.

    You’ve hit the nail on the head. The SCB is generally seen as down-market by the British. That perception is delivered by lots of little signs that only the British really pick up on. Of course, it then becomes self-fulfilling. Once an area gets a reputation as down-market, it sure as hell becomes down-market. People and groups are self-selecting.

    Also, the British agents working in the SCB can’t deliver the type of clients you are after.

    But let’s face it: most of the SCB – places like Torry – is down-market. Why would you buy there if you could afford not to? I’m not trying to be rude about the area, just pointing out market realities.

    That said, I’m sure your enclave and product is great. Sounds like I need to come and take a look.

  • #99581
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    Hi Mark,

    A little bit of history, hope you don’t mind, just to explain certain things are and the reason for them.
    I’ve lived in Torrevieja since 86, I got there when I was 16 and there was around 12000 inhabitants of this popular town. It was about 2-3 years that a guy called Justo Quesada (the builder of Ciudad Quesada) decided th
    at was money to be made in selling to foreign clients villas in cheaper areas, near to the coast but more than walking distance. He realized that people seemed to like a model of home that he had seen on a trip to California (what today we call your typical Spanish villa with balaustrades, arches and coloured roof tiles. He also realised that the only way he could sell them, competing with frontline and beach homes, was by selling at a considerably cheaper price and with a high commission. Its a bit like the supermarket chains that will not be able to make a lot of money on Coca Cola (frontline property) but can do so on Pepsi (second line property).
    Anyway, I still think it strange that the SCB gets such a bad rap; Guardamar is a great place, we have 15.000 inhabitants, Mercadona, Lidl, 2 parks with squirrels and ducks, schools, a house of culture and some of the most well looked after beaches in Spain. Yes, I am pushing Guardamar! But I really think people should visit this town 25 km south of Alicante and 10km north of Torrevieja where even the Pheonicians thought it was a great place to set up shop and trade.
    By the way, since this forum is of a social media nature, I have been trying to find out if anyone is talking about my firm: MARJAL INTERNATIONAL. I would like to know, good or bad.

    thanks

  • #99582
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    katy
    Spectator

    I hope this is a genuine request for feedback and doesn’t end in a sales pitch!

  • #99585
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    Anonymous
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    No, I gave up on the UK market a long time ago. When brits decide to buy in Spain again, I am sure that me and my company will still be around. No, no sales pitch, its just all I can find about Marjal is the campsite, which gets pretty good reviews…but thats not my dept!
    What I am not looking for is lets tar and feather the Spanish builder! lol
    Just some feedback, thanks

  • #99589
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    petej
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    As Mark said you have hit the nail on the head, we did look at the southern Costa Blanca and I would agree that Guardamar del Segura is not a bad place and has a lovely big beach but the CB area below and including Alicante is classed by a lot of British buyers as naff.

    Having a few friends with places in the North CB and knowing a friend of a friend who sold properties on the southern CB they all said “don’t go down there” with the ex agent saying “you will never sell it “ with two of my friends running the hole area down and when questioned have never been there. 😯

    The northern CB also has IMO fair nicer and greener countryside quite simmalier to the Costa Brava, which I also like with the north CB a bit warmer in winter

  • #99590
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    Marjal described the growth of Torrevieja and the surrounding area perfectly, and Jose Quesada was indeed one of the original entrepreneurs, but he started building long before 1986. He died recently.

    He realised what the majority of British people wanted, smallish, easily maintained houses, within striking distance of the sea; you can easily walk to it from his earlier developments on the Torretas, although you need to use the bus from La Siesta.

    He got the land for next to nothing and the town hall issued the necessary licences by the thousand, and the infrastructure was put into place very quickly.

    In the eighties, you could buy one of his houses for the price of a car back in the UK, and if you sold a normal semi detached back home, you could pay cash for your home in the sun and live on the residue for many years, if not for the rest of your life.

    The earlier developments around the Torretas were all cheap and cheerfulll, but La Siesta, El Chaparal and San Luis had the perfect mix, cheap and cheerful mixed with detached villas on 1,000 metre plots, which are even now still selling at 400K. The small terraced houses can now be bought for around 70K.

    Quesada’s idea was later copied by the big developers, but they picked the wrong time and place and are now mostly in administration, leaving behind them an unseemly mess, mostly at Orihuela Costa.

    The northern Costa Blanca has never had developments on the scale of the south, for one thing the terrain doesn’t allow it, and the area to the north has attracted the people from the UK who sold detached houses back home, different people, generally. I don’t know, it’s so hard to be subjective, and you can’t really compare Basingstoke with Barking.

    But the end result is that some 100,000 expats live to the south of Alicante, in communities they want to live in and they’re happy to live that way, among their own.

    The Brits are still coming over, but in smaller numbers; the retired bank managers are sill buying villas on the slopes of Montgo to the north, and the retired bus drivers are sill buying the quads to the south.

  • #99591
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    katy
    Spectator

    Good post Rocker, excellent summary. The same on the CDS as to good and bad areas too.

    Your point about people moving out years ago and having a surplus to live on is so true. When we moved out spanish interest rates were 15% and property cheap, you could really retire early and live the good life.

    Right now an average retiree would find it difficult to buy anything except a 2 bed apartment in an iffy development where 15 years ago they could have bought a villa with pool and had a nest egg!

    Years ago in my student days I used to visit friends in Elche and they had a weekend place in La marina. Decent beach but even then with scarcely any building I didn’t find the area very attractive. There was a lot of pine forest right onto the beach, suppose they have all gone now 🙁

  • #99593
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    Hi Rocker,

    It is Justo, not Jose Quesada. I met the guy a couple of times. Nice guy, had his ideas very well defined. His idea was that (quote) “German street sweepers can buy one of my homes…”.
    Also, I did say he began earlier than 86 but the initial Torretas (his first project for foreigners) was not sold through agents but was more orientated towards Madrid holiday makers. Ciudad Quesada was a little later on the project targeted at foreign buyers.

    There is also another point that I would look into: Is all the SCB that bad? Many parts of Santa Pola, La Marina, El Altet are lovely areas. The urbanisation La Marina is in San Fulgencio, and has little or nothing to do with La Marina town. El Altet is in the same place as the airport and is also a lovely place. La Marina and Guardamar share an enormous pinetree forest (it’s still there). Now I have mentioned 4 towns which I think are great but all the negative comes just from Torrevieja and Orihuela Costa (Orihuela town itself is a historical and well looked after place). Why are we judged on these two towns?
    Is it down to the agents, permissive townhalls or the lack of objective information about the Costa Blanca?

  • #99594
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    Anonymous
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    On other point, I think that many of the problems that we find and the reason why many companies have gone bust is the very reason Katy pointed out; retirees can’t come out to live cheap on their pension anymore. True, but how far has Spain come in 15 years? Is it the same country as it was 15 years ago? I think that it was too easy for someone to come to Spain for peanuts when a second property in another country is a Luxury Item, and that’s something we tend to forget. How much does a detached bungalow with 5000 sq ft plot go for in the UK? It ain’t cheap.
    I am not comparing just putting things into perspective. Where can retirees buy a villa in Europe similar to those in Spain cheaper…Turkey? Bulgaria..?
    You see, I don’t think that sales have gone down due to high prices or scandals, I think that the market was always much smaller than we were prepared to accept but the surplus offer artificially created a huge demand which is what we now know as the bubble.

  • #99595
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    petej
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    There is also another point that I would look into: Is all the SCB that bad? Many parts of Santa Pola, La Marina, El Altet are lovely areas. The urbanisation La Marina is in San Fulgencio, and has little or nothing to do with La Marina town. El Altet is in the same place as the airport and is also a lovely place. La Marina and Guardamar share an enormous pinetree forest (it’s still there). Now I have mentioned 4 towns which I think are great but all the negative comes just from Torrevieja and Orihuela Costa (Orihuela town itself is a historical and well looked after place). Why are we judged on these two towns?
    Is it down to the agents, permissive townhalls or the lack of objective information about the Costa Blanca?

    No, all the SCB is not that bad, Ciudad Quesada is for me a little too closely packed but if you were to stay/buy there I am sure you will enjoy your time with Guardamar being the nearest beach just a short bus trip away.

    Many of the places you mention are also nice, there can be no denying that the area is heavily built up which is not for me but some will like that as some will like Benidorm in the north.

    The problem IMO is the perception/rumours that its all bad, as I said in my earlier post the hole area was being rubbished to me by some people that had never been there, its fine to say you don’t like somewhere if you have seen it and given it a chance but not if you haven’t been there 🙁

    Fortunately I have been up/down/round Spain many times so can make my own mind up but there are many UK buyers that wont/don’t so will exclude it from there viewing lists without seeing if its right for them

  • #99601
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    OK, so probably this isn’t the best place to say it but:

    ESPAÑA CAMPEÓN!!! VIVA ESPAÑA!

    And I will say nothing more on the subject.

  • #99604
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    Anonymous
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    @marjal wrote:

    OK, so probably this isn’t the best place to say it but:

    ESPAÑA CAMPEÓN!!! VIVA ESPAÑA!

    And I will say nothing more on the subject.

    may not be the right place but was well deserved and i don’t think anyone would begrudge them the win

  • #99605
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I just found the thread on this subject. Sorry…

  • #99606
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    Anonymous
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    @marjal wrote:

    You see, I don’t think that sales have gone down due to high prices or scandals, I think that the market was always much smaller than we were prepared to accept but the surplus offer artificially created a huge demand which is what we now know as the bubble.

    Marjal,

    You are right that the speculative bubble created an illusion of demand. The chickens have come home to roost, as they always do in the end, and it turns out the market isn’t as big as it looked. But don’t under-estimate the damage done by scandals, and the impact of the weak pound. These factors have also taken their toll on British demand.

    You asked for feedback on Marjal International. This thread isn’t really the place for that kind of a discussion. Feel free to start a new thread asking for feedback on your company in the Costa Blanca section. I’ll send you a PM with my feedback when I get a moment.

  • #99611
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    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    The foreigners will still come over to buy at the cheaper end, but Marbella and places like it will die.

    Oh dear, this from the person who erroneously states that there are “tens of thousands of illegal properties in Marbella” when it is the one place in Spain that has had its entire illegal problem, entirely resolved. (Well save for literally a couple of projects, sorry). And who could never come back with a statement to dispute the actual facts.

    And when it is the Costa Blanca and Murcia where all the truly awful and tragic build has happened, where all the really cheap and nasty properties are.

    Oh dear, you are so wrong Rocker, it is hard to credit really, you really are so wrong, Marbella will actually thrive, as before, because everywhere else is so cheap and nasty by comparison. People go for quality and thankfully Marbella does have that in abundance, along with the odd naff project that was misguidedly built.

  • #99613
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    Anonymous
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    I wouldn’t write off Marbella either. It will always have its up and downs, but it will always be one of the most sought after locations on the Spanish coast.

    Marbella’s property market may still be in bad shape, but more businesses are starting to relocate there, new businesses are opening, and things are starting to pick up.

  • #99616
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    Anonymous
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    Personally, I think Marbella has a lot going for it once Gil and the likes finally left (ok, Gil died, I mean those that followed in his footsteps).
    Marbella has a lot of marketing done to it and brand isn’t cheap and once you have it its’ a pretty powerful tool to count on.

  • #99637
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m not going back to Marbella, it’s such a one-off place within the Spanish property market and not really indicative of anything. The disturbing news reports I read this morning in my usual travels through the financial and property press seem to suggest that the English property market is in trouble too and heading for a five-year downturn. The Spanish downturn seems to be set in stone already.

    I have properties in both countries and was thinking of a move in one of them, but with all the uncertainties have now decided to stay put and take it on the chin. I considered the US, briefly and foolishly, but escaped that folly just in time.

    From where I’m sitting, sweating in this ridiculous heat, I don’t see any green shoots anywhere. I watched a Spanish programme about rural life in Majorca earlier and it encouraged me to have a quick look at the property market there.

    I needn’t have bothered.

    (There was some encouraging news about the German property market, but that scares me),

  • #99805
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    Anonymous
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    I’m not going back to Marbella, it’s such a one-off place within the Spanish property market and not really indicative of anything. The disturbing news reports I read this morning in my usual travels through the financial and property press seem to suggest that the English property market is in trouble too and heading for a five-year downturn. The Spanish downturn seems to be set in stone already.

    I have properties in both countries and was thinking of a move in one of them, but with all the uncertainties have now decided to stay put and take it on the chin. I considered the US, briefly and foolishly, but escaped that folly just in time.

    From where I’m sitting, sweating in this ridiculous heat, I don’t see any green shoots anywhere. I watched a Spanish programme about rural life in Majorca earlier and it encouraged me to have a quick look at the property market there.

    I needn’t have bothered.

    (There was some encouraging news about the German property market, but that scares me),

  • #99638
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    katy
    Spectator

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    The foreigners will still come over to buy at the cheaper end, but Marbella and places like it will die.

    And when it is the Costa Blanca and Murcia where all the truly awful and tragic build has happened, where all the really cheap and nasty properties are.

    Oh dear, you are so wrong Rocker, it is hard to credit really, you really are so wrong, Marbella will actually thrive, as before, because everywhere else is so cheap and nasty by comparison. People go for quality and thankfully Marbella does have that in abundance, along with the odd naff project that was misguidedly built.

    I agree with Chris here. Marbella is not my scene anymore but we looked around various places with a view to moving and still prefered it to anywhere else on the Costas. It also has a huge attraction for many other nationalities plus many Northern spaniards have 2nd homes there. The centre still remains very spanish and it is a lovely place to wander around. I have been visiting marbella since before I can remember as Grandfather had a place there, later on my parents. It has had it’s ups and downs before and come out winning. I don’t want to go back there (too many changes for me 🙁 but it still has much more going for it than a few urbanisations around a purpose built golf course in the middle of nowhere.

  • #99807
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    katy
    Spectator

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    The foreigners will still come over to buy at the cheaper end, but Marbella and places like it will die.

    And when it is the Costa Blanca and Murcia where all the truly awful and tragic build has happened, where all the really cheap and nasty properties are.

    Oh dear, you are so wrong Rocker, it is hard to credit really, you really are so wrong, Marbella will actually thrive, as before, because everywhere else is so cheap and nasty by comparison. People go for quality and thankfully Marbella does have that in abundance, along with the odd naff project that was misguidedly built.

    I agree with Chris here. Marbella is not my scene anymore but we looked around various places with a view to moving and still prefered it to anywhere else on the Costas. It also has a huge attraction for many other nationalities plus many Northern spaniards have 2nd homes there. The centre still remains very spanish and it is a lovely place to wander around. I have been visiting marbella since before I can remember as Grandfather had a place there, later on my parents. It has had it’s ups and downs before and come out winning. I don’t want to go back there (too many changes for me 🙁 but it still has much more going for it than a few urbanisations around a purpose built golf course in the middle of nowhere.

  • #99884
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Marjal described ……….
    The northern Costa Blanca has never had developments on the scale of the south, for one thing the terrain doesn’t allow it, and the area to the north has attracted the people from the UK who sold detached houses back home, different people, generally. I don’t know, it’s so hard to be subjective, and you can’t really compare Basingstoke with Barking.

    ……………………..

    Sorry Rocker, but they have found the terrain 🙁 look at this “Residencia”

    and I think it´s bought 90% by Brits

    In general we prefer the Northern CBL – looking to buy there for more than 2 years now…. and prices are still decreasing. 😉

  • #99684
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Marjal described ……….
    The northern Costa Blanca has never had developments on the scale of the south, for one thing the terrain doesn’t allow it, and the area to the north has attracted the people from the UK who sold detached houses back home, different people, generally. I don’t know, it’s so hard to be subjective, and you can’t really compare Basingstoke with Barking.

    ……………………..

    Sorry Rocker, but they have found the terrain 🙁 look at this “Residencia”

    and I think it´s bought 90% by Brits

    In general we prefer the Northern CBL – looking to buy there for more than 2 years now…. and prices are still decreasing. 😉

  • #99886
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    How luvverly…..not. The Architect and the Planning Dept. need shooting. Bet the neighbours are pleased, enhancing their views like that. If you linked all the pools with a diving board, it would be a novel way to get down the hill.

    And Mark, quick, look – all those houses on the bottom left with round towers. One house even has twins. 😯

  • #99686
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    How luvverly…..not. The Architect and the Planning Dept. need shooting. Bet the neighbours are pleased, enhancing their views like that. If you linked all the pools with a diving board, it would be a novel way to get down the hill.

    And Mark, quick, look – all those houses on the bottom left with round towers. One house even has twins. 😯

  • #99890
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good God, Sunwin, where is it?

  • #99690
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good God, Sunwin, where is it?

  • #99891
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Ugh! Another typical ugly Spanish urbanization, you’d think the Brits would clear their heads and wake up. I bet they’d never re-sell there at a profit having been duped by some glossy brochure and fast talking sales person to buy there! 🙂

  • #99691
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Ugh! Another typical ugly Spanish urbanization, you’d think the Brits would clear their heads and wake up. I bet they’d never re-sell there at a profit having been duped by some glossy brochure and fast talking sales person to buy there! 🙂

  • #99893
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Good God, Sunwin, where is it?

    This is the famous “Gata Residential” at Gata de Gorgos at the south side of “Monte Pedreguer”

    The “Villas” are offered at a asking Price starting 120K (no Pool 3 Beds) now.

    But there are other examples: Next one “Monte Solana” – look at this poor villa behind the “Town Houses”
    The owner tries now to sell his wonderfull property – asking Price 525K 😳

    This is how it looked before they started to build this ugly houses

    I wonder who is buying such property – which kind of clients are they looking for ??

  • #99693
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Good God, Sunwin, where is it?

    This is the famous “Gata Residential” at Gata de Gorgos at the south side of “Monte Pedreguer”

    The “Villas” are offered at a asking Price starting 120K (no Pool 3 Beds) now.

    But there are other examples: Next one “Monte Solana” – look at this poor villa behind the “Town Houses”
    The owner tries now to sell his wonderfull property – asking Price 525K 😳

    This is how it looked before they started to build this ugly houses

    I wonder who is buying such property – which kind of clients are they looking for ??

  • #99894
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Five more towers in Sunwind’s new photo – it’s a blimmin’ epidemic Mark!

    Thank goodness ugly overdevelopment like this is simply not allowed in Greece, at least as far as I know – too many restrictions on build allowance per sqm of land. There’s talk of even raising the minimum land for a 200sqm house from 4,000 to 10,000 sqm’s outside the village boundaries.

    I am astounded that anybody actually buys or would want this stuff. As I replied to UBEDA on the other thread, there is Spain and there is spain. 🙁

  • #99694
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Five more towers in Sunwind’s new photo – it’s a blimmin’ epidemic Mark!

    Thank goodness ugly overdevelopment like this is simply not allowed in Greece, at least as far as I know – too many restrictions on build allowance per sqm of land. There’s talk of even raising the minimum land for a 200sqm house from 4,000 to 10,000 sqm’s outside the village boundaries.

    I am astounded that anybody actually buys or would want this stuff. As I replied to UBEDA on the other thread, there is Spain and there is spain. 🙁

  • #99896
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I know both Gata and Pedreguer, both about 15 miles inland from Denia and Javea, but it didn’t look like that when I lived up that way. How on earth did those houses get planning permission?

    They’re not even anywhere near the sea, not served by public transport, and the A7 motorway has got to be only a few yards away. On top of that the surrounding countryside is not particularly attractive.

    The development looks like a tower block laid on its side. They’ll never sell those ‘houses’, surely?

  • #99696
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I know both Gata and Pedreguer, both about 15 miles inland from Denia and Javea, but it didn’t look like that when I lived up that way. How on earth did those houses get planning permission?

    They’re not even anywhere near the sea, not served by public transport, and the A7 motorway has got to be only a few yards away. On top of that the surrounding countryside is not particularly attractive.

    The development looks like a tower block laid on its side. They’ll never sell those ‘houses’, surely?

  • #99899
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Beggars belief that anyone would buy them. There are about 500 like that on the road into La Linea. One of the things I found scary about where we lived in Marbella. We were overlooking an area of protected pine,cork and eucalyptus but in the new town plan it was a bit “airy-fairy”. How much do you think a development like that would knock down the price of those villas…30%?

  • #99699
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Beggars belief that anyone would buy them. There are about 500 like that on the road into La Linea. One of the things I found scary about where we lived in Marbella. We were overlooking an area of protected pine,cork and eucalyptus but in the new town plan it was a bit “airy-fairy”. How much do you think a development like that would knock down the price of those villas…30%?

  • #99900
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Beggars belief that anyone would buy them. There are about 500 like that on the road into La Linea. One of the things I found scary about where we lived in Marbella. We were overlooking an area of protected pine,cork and eucalyptus but in the new town plan it was a bit “airy-fairy”. How much do you think a development like that would knock down the price of those villas…30%?

    Could you even sell them at all? I have an area of protected land in front of my house, but it doesn’t make me too confident, a couple of miles away a similar plot of protected land had its status changed and they built a small office block on it, still unlet and unsold after five years.

    And from the look of those ‘houses’, they haven’t taken up that much space. I suppose the marketing agents will stress the proximity to Javea and Denia, upmarket coastal resorts on this part of the Costa Blanca, but the proximity as the crow flies would bear no resemblance to the reality, an awkward half-hour drive, at least.

  • #99700
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Beggars belief that anyone would buy them. There are about 500 like that on the road into La Linea. One of the things I found scary about where we lived in Marbella. We were overlooking an area of protected pine,cork and eucalyptus but in the new town plan it was a bit “airy-fairy”. How much do you think a development like that would knock down the price of those villas…30%?

    Could you even sell them at all? I have an area of protected land in front of my house, but it doesn’t make me too confident, a couple of miles away a similar plot of protected land had its status changed and they built a small office block on it, still unlet and unsold after five years.

    And from the look of those ‘houses’, they haven’t taken up that much space. I suppose the marketing agents will stress the proximity to Javea and Denia, upmarket coastal resorts on this part of the Costa Blanca, but the proximity as the crow flies would bear no resemblance to the reality, an awkward half-hour drive, at least.

  • #99908
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It’s been said many times before, but why does Spain continually allow lovely hillsides to be carved up for ugly development?

    I’t’s not because people need to live somewhere, because they could take up the slack of the alleged 1.5 million unsold new builds first.( and the rest )

    Once these are bought there’s little possibility of ever re-selling at a profit so they are loss making once the costs are added in.

    Spain, the expert in mass destruction of coastal areas but they still don’t learn from their mistakes!

  • #99708
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It’s been said many times before, but why does Spain continually allow lovely hillsides to be carved up for ugly development?

    I’t’s not because people need to live somewhere, because they could take up the slack of the alleged 1.5 million unsold new builds first.( and the rest )

    Once these are bought there’s little possibility of ever re-selling at a profit so they are loss making once the costs are added in.

    Spain, the expert in mass destruction of coastal areas but they still don’t learn from their mistakes!

  • #99910
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I can only think that they’ve given up on the coast, it’s too late to save it. Or, they’ve realised that Benidorm, the daddy of them all, has proved such a commercial success and they are trying to replicate the site elsewhere.

    Or, it’s such a vast country that they can do without a small coastal stretch peopled by foreigners.

  • #99710
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I can only think that they’ve given up on the coast, it’s too late to save it. Or, they’ve realised that Benidorm, the daddy of them all, has proved such a commercial success and they are trying to replicate the site elsewhere.

    Or, it’s such a vast country that they can do without a small coastal stretch peopled by foreigners.

  • #99912
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    It’s been said many times before, but why does Spain continually allow lovely hillsides to be carved up for ugly development?

    Angie – this is something that’s mystified me eversince I’ve known Spain. It’s not rocket science for an Architect to come up with something that’s aesthetically appealing to the eye yet they come up with developments like Gata de Gorgos. I could design something better while watching a movie at the same time. The only remit an Architect can have for developments like that is “maximum build for maximum profit” and perhaps…..”keep them all the same so the engineer’s fees will be cheap and the workers don’t get confused”.

    I’ve just finished designing the house I’m about to build – compared to that lot, Prince Charles would give me the Golden Globe Award for design and we know how fussy he is.

    (I spelt aesthetically correctly after 3 glasses of wine – not bad!) 🙂

    Spain – you should hold your head in shame:
    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_26741.shtml

  • #99712
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    It’s been said many times before, but why does Spain continually allow lovely hillsides to be carved up for ugly development?

    Angie – this is something that’s mystified me eversince I’ve known Spain. It’s not rocket science for an Architect to come up with something that’s aesthetically appealing to the eye yet they come up with developments like Gata de Gorgos. I could design something better while watching a movie at the same time. The only remit an Architect can have for developments like that is “maximum build for maximum profit” and perhaps…..”keep them all the same so the engineer’s fees will be cheap and the workers don’t get confused”.

    I’ve just finished designing the house I’m about to build – compared to that lot, Prince Charles would give me the Golden Globe Award for design and we know how fussy he is.

    (I spelt aesthetically correctly after 3 glasses of wine – not bad!) 🙂

    Spain – you should hold your head in shame:
    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_26741.shtml

  • #99916
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Unfortunately whats ugly for you is the next persons cup of tea. We build a modern style villa, a minimalist design…but guess what everybody still wants?
    Balaustrades, round towers and arches!

    Most builders cater for the demand we have and thats the truth!

  • #99716
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Unfortunately whats ugly for you is the next persons cup of tea. We build a modern style villa, a minimalist design…but guess what everybody still wants?
    Balaustrades, round towers and arches!

    Most builders cater for the demand we have and thats the truth!

  • #99919
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    charlie, is the house you’re talking about in Crete? I’m sure it is ‘Es Thet Ic Al Lee’ far better, yes you did spell it correctly even after that wine 😉

    Marjal, It’s hard to believe that this kind of development is another person’s ‘cup of tea’, I think it’s more like ‘all about price’, I don’t think many would buy these if they could afford to live somewhere nice.

    This sort of coastal destruction could only happen on such a large scale in Spain, I don’t know anywhere else where so much ugly new build has occurred. Cyprus is similar but on a smaller scale. Both countries suffer from the same awful cracked render and rust stained paintwork on their blocks.

    As charlie also wonders, why does Spain continually build such cr-p whilst destroying so many hillsides? They can never re-instate such a long coastline aesthetically again! 😡

  • #99719
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    charlie, is the house you’re talking about in Crete? I’m sure it is ‘Es Thet Ic Al Lee’ far better, yes you did spell it correctly even after that wine 😉

    Marjal, It’s hard to believe that this kind of development is another person’s ‘cup of tea’, I think it’s more like ‘all about price’, I don’t think many would buy these if they could afford to live somewhere nice.

    This sort of coastal destruction could only happen on such a large scale in Spain, I don’t know anywhere else where so much ugly new build has occurred. Cyprus is similar but on a smaller scale. Both countries suffer from the same awful cracked render and rust stained paintwork on their blocks.

    As charlie also wonders, why does Spain continually build such cr-p whilst destroying so many hillsides? They can never re-instate such a long coastline aesthetically again! 😡

  • #99925
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    Unfortunately whats ugly for you is the next persons cup of tea. We build a modern style villa, a minimalist design…but guess what everybody still wants?
    Balaustrades, round towers and arches!

    That´s exactly what we are looking for (No Towers,etc.) – but at least at Northern CBL you can hardly find any resale without a “Tower”.

  • #99725
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    Unfortunately whats ugly for you is the next persons cup of tea. We build a modern style villa, a minimalist design…but guess what everybody still wants?
    Balaustrades, round towers and arches!

    That´s exactly what we are looking for (No Towers,etc.) – but at least at Northern CBL you can hardly find any resale without a “Tower”.

  • #99930
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maybe the one you show has not sold, but shall I send you pictures of the stuff that has sold? Its a damn site uglier believe me…

  • #99730
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maybe the one you show has not sold, but shall I send you pictures of the stuff that has sold? Its a damn site uglier believe me…

  • #100122
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    These are the appalling houses that you are talking about at Gata, as you can clearly see who would in their right mind buy a property like this. As commented in an earlier post you can clearly see from the second picture that the surrounding countryside is not pleasant.

    The picture shown is the smaller type sold as semi detached however there are no party walls with a 1 metre covered passageway between them, they have a habitable covered roof space of 95sm2 the larger houses are on minimum 600sm2 plots with 150sm2 built.

    All properties enjoy main water, gas, and electricity, all properties have full GCH, and alarm systems, all properties have a garden water supply

    The urbanisation has 2 large public park areas, there is a full road drainage system, below ground rubbish bins.

    Far from being 15 miles and a difficult drive to Javea & Denia it is about 10k six miles about 10-15 mins easy drive, it is equidistant to Valencia and Alicante Airport with easy access to the N332 and the A7. From the Local town of Gata you can get the train to Alicante or Valencia via connections at Denia.

    The urbanisation is one of the best kept and cleanest I have seen with residents holding regular clean up days to ensure it stays that way. There is a high proportion of permanent resident of many nationals including a growing Spanish Contingent, because of this it does not become a ghost town like many urbanisations in the winter.

    I have stayed in many development throughout Spain before during and since living in Spain, and still maintain that Gata Residencial is far superior to most of them.

    And yes I do own a property there

  • #100186
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Petej posted this in the Regional forum. I think it’s important enough to be highlighted in this thread.

    Until Spain addresses this disgusting and criminal-type behaviour, the Spanish property market doesn’t deserve to have a single penny more of people’s hard-earned money invested there. And it certainly doesn’t deserve to EVER recover.

    Where is the so-called Spanish pride, knowing this goes on? Why are they so mute?
    Am getting a bit tired of reading how much Spain has achieved a la marjal. This is nothing short of legalised crime that should only be expected in countries like Zimbabwe.

    And please, no lectures about Franco’s era and how Spain is “only a young democracy”…..the usual excuses. 🙄

    Personally, I would tell Breviator SL to get stuffed – there must be a good similar equivalent in Spanish.
    And buyers beware, by a developer being able to “cherry-pick the best of the old LRAU and the replacement LUV laws in asking for an outrageous amount of money”, know this can happen to anyone, anywhere.

    Well done petej for highlighting this, the sordier side of owning a property in Spain. Sunshine and Sangria is no compensation for this.
    viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5182

  • #100188
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Until Spain addresses this disgusting and criminal-type behaviour, the Spanish property market doesn’t deserve to have a single penny more of people’s hard-earned money invested there. And it certainly doesn’t deserve to EVER recover.

    Where is the so-called Spanish pride, knowing this goes on? Why are they so mute?
    Am getting a bit tired of reading how much Spain has achieved a la marjal. This is nothing short of legalised crime that should only be expected in countries like Zimbabwe.

    Hi, just a quick one: When I talk about Spanish pride or how far the country has come, I do not endorse how many town halls, town planners and corrupt politians/ builders, etc, have lined their pockets with peoples’ hard earned money. I don’t try to justify what is wrong in Spain; as far as I’m concerned all the above should be locked up for good and the key thrown away. Everything we are talking about in this forum boils down to corruption on a massive scale, I’m not blind to the situation and I am equally disgusted because NOT EVERYBODY IS THE SAME.
    I have worked in the sector for 12 years and seen firms come and go, especially real estate agents who’s questionable sales tactics never get talked about here. I know for than one brit who has opened and closed agencies time and time again in the UK and still taking peoples’ money, on the other hand I know several agencies with impeccable reputations, the same goes for Spanish companies. Its the bad apples that spoil the rest.

  • #100190
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    Everything we are talking about in this forum boils down to corruption on a massive scale….

    I think you’ve missed the point here. We are not talking about the corruption of individuals this time. We are talking about Spanish laws and what they allow people to do, which actually makes it all the more disgraceful.

    @marjal wrote:

    ……especially real estate agents who’s questionable sales tactics never get talked about here.

    Actually there have been real estate agents who have given up being a member of SPI and left in the past because of us discussing their sales tactics. 😆 Try searching a few of the earlier threads.

  • #100192
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    Its the bad apples that spoil the rest.

    Regarding individuals, I agree. But what a lot of rotten apples have been growing on Spanish trees.
    Pity, they really did a good job of killing the golden goose and all because of greed. And they’re still doing it, aided by the law.

  • #100196
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I totally agree that the Spanish Gov’t were, and still are at fault with the whole Spanish property debacle. Until they take serious and firm measures including punitive regulation of the ‘bad’ agents, developers and lawyers, create more transparency, rid themselves of Land Grab and illegal builds, get rid of time-share scammers, B Money etc, whilst speeding up their dreadfullly slow legal system, I’m afraid it will be ages for buoyancy to return to the market in numbers. 🙄

    There are some agents thankfully who are trying to address some of our issues mentioned on this forum over the years so good on them at last. 😉

  • #101914
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Some market data:

    • Banks have accepted 100,000 debt-for-property (residential) swaps since 2008
    • There will be around 180,000 foreclosure proceedings started this year (forecast from the consejo general del poder judicial)
    • There will be around 84,000 repossessions this year (forecast from the consejo general del poder judicial)
  • #101917
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Barclays capital say Spanish banks need another 46 billion Euros of capital to cope with losses on real estate loans, mainly to developers.

    Bad-debt ratio on loans to developers is an eye-watering 12pc, compared to just 2pc on residential mortgages.

    61pc of private sector borrowing is property-related, €445 billion to developers and constructors (>40pc of Spanish GDP 😯 ).

  • #101975
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    Some market data:

    • Banks have accepted 100,000 debt-for-property (residential) swaps since 2008
    • There will be around 180,000 foreclosure proceedings started this year (forecast from the consejo general del poder judicial)
    • There will be around 84,000 repossessions this year (forecast from the consejo general del poder judicial)

    That’s really very sad. So many people caught up in the madness of the moment.

    But hark, the banks appear to have hundreds of thousands of empty properties and are about to need a bailout from the Spanish government, perhaps a social housing deal can be done?

  • #102005
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rental prices down 0.8pc in November according to property portal fotocasa.es. Over 12 months rental prices down an average of 5pc they say.

  • #102202
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    Rental prices down 0.8pc in November according to property portal fotocasa.es. Over 12 months rental prices down an average of 5pc they say.

    that must just be on long term rentals i haven’t seen any movement in holiday rental prices

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