The Problems Caused By Under-Declaration

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This topic contains 70 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 3 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #57284
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    We heard of a couple who moved to Spain some years ago, they wanted the CDS, but found it too expensive so opted for the Costa Blanca.

    They saw one of many look-a-like houses on a huge estate for 250k being sold by a developer, who, agreed to sell for 240k provided they pay 25% ‘B’ money. Who had the best deal, the Developer who saved tax on 60k, or the naive purchaser who saved a bit of IVA.? So the couple felt they’d had a deal, but their official purchase price (without costs) was now 180k.

    Then the market crashed, by 50% or so up there, but let’s say their property only fell 40%.

    At the correct price that would have been approx.40% of 240k roughly dropped to 140k now.

    At the under-declared price 40% of 180k now worth 108k roughly, but they know they really paid 240k, so the drop in value is magnified, instead of 100k drop, it’s now 132k. They can’t cook the books with this, their only hope they think is that one day in 10 years time or so, someone else will give them ‘B’ money when they try the same move. However the authorities are not daft and the true price might be assumed, and a bigger tax bill possibly โ—

    It’s not worth the risk ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #115398
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s not worth the risk but hundreds, probably thousands did it as ‘the norm’…..

    My husband saved up cash from his wages (under his bed when he lived with his parents, as is the norm).

    Banesto took that cash to let him (how kind) have a 100% mortgage. It should have been a deposit!

    The owner of the flat declared 55,000 euros on the first set of deeds (95,000 euro sale price) the rest the bank sorted out…and the estate agent got 5k.

    An old cortijo and land bought for 30,000 euros but only 15,000 euros declared. Now it’s worth 7000 isn’t it. Not a good feeling!

    It’s not worth it for future purchases but I am guessing that a lot of people are paying ‘cash’ for the really cheap properties as the banks are so desperate for cash?

    I would suggest that people don’t do it, as it’s just not worth it. It’s too risky with your well earn’t (hopefully ๐Ÿ˜‰ cash

  • #115411
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Another problem arises even if say you manage to sell for the same price you paid, but the buyer refuses to pay black money: you end up paying tax on the “profit” you made in the eyes of the tax man.

  • #115418
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    That is exactly what has caught people out with chopera, paying more tax because the tax man sees it a different way, something that a lot of naive purchasers didn’t think about when they did the vendor a big favour, pay more tax when they sell than they should or get stuck with the property for years ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115548
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    However the authorities are not daft and the true price might be assumed, and a bigger tax bill possibly

    What utter rubbish. Where do you get this garbage from?

    First of all, all your figures are plucked out of thin air and make huge assumptions, most of which are wrong. Your first incorrect assumption is that the price these people ultimately sell for has anything at all to do with what price they paid – wrong.

    Given the market has fallen significantly from the height, they’re likely running at a loss as whatever they sell for – that price is not fixed or related to what they actually paid. If their house is only worth say โ‚ฌ120k now, or at least that’s what someone’s prepared to buy if for, what difference does the official figure make? โ‚ฌ240k – โ‚ฌ120k = a loss of half, โ‚ฌ180 is entirely irrelevant. Wrong again.

    And, what tax? Hello???

    You only pay capital gains tax on profits! That’s why it’s called gains! โ‚ฌ180k official declared buy value – โ‚ฌ120k sell value = โ‚ฌ0 gains! โ‚ฌ240k unofficial buy value – โ‚ฌ120k = โ‚ฌ0 gains! Wrong again!

    The only time property bought with part cash and registered with a lower value makes any difference is when you make a profit on it, which then means you pay a higher amount in capital gains tax. Eg Same couple buy their house for โ‚ฌ240k and put an official value down at โ‚ฌ180k. They now sell in a rising market for โ‚ฌ350k. The capital gains exposure is now โ‚ฌ180k – โ‚ฌ350k = โ‚ฌ170k as opposed to โ‚ฌ350k – โ‚ฌ240k = โ‚ฌ110k. So they expose themselves to an additional โ‚ฌ60k of capital gains tax.

    This stuff really isn’t that hard to understand! ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115549
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    You are wrong. hacienda has a price for a property and they won’t budge. You can sell at 200,000 but if the authorities say it is worth 240,000 then they will come back to the buyer for the 8% of the assumed figure. Likewise the seller for CGT.

  • #115559
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    And I thought that they had redone all the catastral values recently as well? Isn’t that really the ‘official’ value of a property?

  • #115563
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I’m glad you can see the obvious katy and mg, and not that weird view of previous poster ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115573
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    You are wrong. hacienda has a price for a property and they won’t budge. You can sell at 200,000 but if the authorities say it is worth 240,000 then they will come back to the buyer for the 8% of the assumed figure. Likewise the seller for CGT.

    No, you are wrong.

    You’re getting utterly confused by all the various terms and taxes that have to be paid when a property is sold – because you clearly don’t understand any of them. Incredible for someone posting on a forum about Spanish property!

    In my post I referred specifically to capital gains tax, because that is the only tax that could or would be affected by under-stating a property purchase price by paying part of it in cash when the property is resold, and it has no effect whatsoever when the property has decreased in value. For the simple reason, you only pay capital gains tax on the profits made by the difference of purchase price and resale price. If no profit has been made, you are not liable to capital gains tax. End of.

    What you’re now referring to here, which is completely separate and entirely different to capital gains tax, is the plusvalia property tax. This is based on the valor catastral, which is a value assigned to the land the property is located on by the municipal province the property is located in. The valor catastral is an assessment of the value of the land and has nothing whatsoever to do with the price of the property that happens to sit on the land either in terms of purchase price, resale price, market price or what anyone might think it’s worth. Plusvalia is paid to the municipal province, capital gains is paid to the hacienda. Valor catastral is assessed and set by by the municipal province and it is not a reflection of the value of the current market price of the property.

    The valor catastral is the virtual equivalent of the old rateable value of a house in the UK and is used as a basis for calculating the local IBI Provincial tax and municipal rubbish collection fees.

    The plusvalia is a provincial tax collected and paid to the Province the land is located in and has nothing to do with hacienda. This tax assumes a notional increase in the value of the land the property sits on and is calculated on the current valor catastral and number of years the property has been held. Hence the assumed increase in land value over the years the property has been held in ownership.

    As you can see (hopefully, but I won’t hold my breath) the purchase price paid for a property and registered at the notary and sale price paid for a property and registered at the notary have nothing whatsoever to do with the local provincial plusvalia tax or the valor catastral.

    Yet I’m the one here with a half a brain right? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115574
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @mgspain wrote:

    The Plusvalia is set by the ayuntamiento and is detached from the sale price.

    At what point in my post did I say anything at all about plusvalia? I think you’ll find I referred specifically to capital gains tax which has nothing whatsoever to do with plusvalia or the valor catastral the plusvalia is based on, as well as being paid to a completely different tax authority.

    Neither do any of these things have anything whatsoever to do with the purchase price of a property or the resale price of a property which the original poster here referred to.

    @mgspain wrote:

    As Katy points out, it’s what the authorities say it’s worth that matters.

    Katy doesn’t have the slightest clue what she is talking about and doesn’t understand the difference between capital gains tax paid to hacienda on the difference between bought and sold price, valor catastral set by the province and plusvalia paid to the province on the land value increase.

    @mgspain wrote:

    You still get a bill if you bought and sold at the same price provided more than one year has passed. Their calculations always assume an increase in value, even in a falling market..

    On the plusvalia yes, because it assumes the land the property sits on increases in value as the roads and infrastructure around it are maintained and improved by the local authority. But as I’ve now pointed out several times, the buying, selling and assumed market price of a property bears no relation whatsoever to the the valor catastral and plusvalia that’s based on it.

    Plusvalia is a land tax not a property tax and doesn’t take buying and selling prices into account. Which I’d like to remind you was the point the original poster in this thread was making.

  • #115575
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    I’m glad you can see the obvious katy and mg, and not that weird view of previous poster ๐Ÿ˜†

    And now read where they’re just as ignorant and misinformed as you are. ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115576
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @itsme wrote:

    And I thought that they had redone all the catastral values recently as well? Isn’t that really the ‘official’ value of a property?

    They’re in the process of revaluing the valor catastral, some have been done and some are yet to be done.

    The valor catastral is the rateable value of a property and land it sits on and is not a reflection on any assumed market value. It’s used to calculate IBI, rubbish collection, plusvalia and non-resident taxes. It is not used for capital gains tax calculations!

    I repeat it is not a assessment of the ‘offficial’ or market value of a property.

  • #115577
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    You are an arrogant and rude pillock. I wasn’t actually on about plus valia. At which point did I say anything about plus valia. Bought and sold about 5 times. I do know he concept of it, infact I am bi-lingual having spanish family! on our last sale we paid a little under 7000โ‚ฌ plus valia. However I mentioned CGT

    If I bought at 160,000 an sold at 200,000 (fat chance!) then capital gains is payable on 40,000 (less selling fees etc.). However hacienda decides that their present value figure is 240,000 they assume under declaration and officially declare CGT on a profit of 80,000 on which CGT is payable. It does happen frequently now.

    Anyway if you want to justify tax fiddling ok. Just do it ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

    Have I got it right…all your superior knowledge and you bought in….Almeria ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115578
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Zenkarma, thanks for the info. You haven’t made many posts here or maybe haven’t been lurking to read all the posts for much time. We jump around a bit you see….a post can merge with other things and completely change course with only a few words. Being sarky with us all will mean that we’ll start to be sarky back to you ๐Ÿ˜‰

    We obviously all know the basics of what Capital Gains Tax means, the gains you’ve made if you buy and then sell at a profit.

    The trouble is that so many properties had lower declared amounts before or during boom time so that local sellers paid much less capital gains. I guess it works out well if people are selling now as with this crisis they are selling at a loss but not actually paying capital gains since they on paper haven’t made any gains. Obviously in real life cash wise they’ve lost out big time.

    Again, thanks for your informative post. Just don’t sound like a cross teacher towards a naughty student and we’ll all be happy.

  • #115580
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    hey hey hey Katy, Almeria isn’t all bad…. (please be nice about it…) ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #115581
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @mgspain wrote:

    oh sorry, I must have skimmed through your post and not taken it so seriously as came across as being from someone with “issues” my bad.

    The only issues I have is with people spouting ignorant misinformed rubbish on a forum dedicated to buying and selling property in Spain. And in doing so completely misleading anyone who might happen to come here looking for factual information to base decisions on.

    Your puerile reaction and ad hominem attack on me personally and what property I happen to own is absolutely typical of someone whose been shown up to be ignorant and misinformed about the issues that are being discussed and now has nowhere to hide.

    If you had any balls at all you’d admit where you were wrong and say so. Clearly you prefer to attack the person rather than debate and discuss the issues.

    Pathetic.

  • #115584
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @itsme wrote:

    hey hey hey Katy, Almeria isn’t all bad…. (please be nice about it…) ๐Ÿ™‚

    sorry ๐Ÿ˜ณ The bit he lives in would be a bit iffy wouldn’t it :mrgreen:

  • #115585
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    You are wrong. hacienda has a price for a property and they won’t budge. You can sell at 200,000 but if the authorities say it is worth 240,000 then they will come back to the buyer for the 8% of the assumed figure. Likewise the seller for CGT.

    Are you saying that the authorities use their property valuation for calculating CGT as well as the transfer tax?

  • #115586
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes, it happens at the same time buyers are charged extra for under declaring. Not to us as we were residents but a friend who paid the 3% retention found out it had been calculated that he owed more than the 3%. Even though he took a hit and made a loss ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #115587
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @zenkarma wrote:

    They’re in the process of revaluing the valor catastral, some have been done and some are yet to be done.

    The valor catastral is the rateable value of a property and land it sits on and is not a reflection on any assumed market value. It’s used to calculate IBI, rubbish collection, plusvalia and non-resident taxes. It is not used for capital gains tax calculations!

    I repeat it is not a assessment of the ‘offficial’ or market value of a property.

    Although not used to calculate a market price, for tax purposes the valor catastral is used to calculate an official price in Andalucia (and I assume all regions) called ‘valor fiscal’. Although it does not affect the seller it can lead to higher costs for the buyer., as if they buy below this amount, they do have to pay the transfer tax/IVA on the difference.

  • #115588
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Yes, it happens at the same time buyers are charged extra for under declaring. Not to us as we were residents but a friend who paid the 3% retention found out it had been calculated that he owed more than the 3%. Even though he took a hit and made a loss ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    Katy, are you sure he simply did not owe taxes (wealth tax/non-resident)?

  • #115594
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    You are an arrogant and rude pillock.

    Is that the thanks I get for explaining just how confused and bewildered you are with the property taxation systems currently in place on Spanish property?

    @katy wrote:

    If I bought at 160,000 an sold at 200,000 (fat chance!) then capital gains is payable on 40,000 (less selling fees etc.).

    Correct, we agree on something.

    @katy wrote:

    However hacienda decides that their present value figure is 240,000 they assume under declaration and officially declare CGT on a profit of 80,000 on which CGT is payable. It does happen frequently now.

    Hacienda doesn’t decide anything of the sort. Hacienda is the Spanish governments version of the UK’s Inland Revenue, they do not decide the values that houses sell for, they merely calculate the capital gains tax liable based on the difference between purchase price and sale price minus allowances. The only authority decided figure on any property is the valor catastral, which is set by the Provincial Municipality.

    To show you how stupid you’re being here by continuing to repeat the same wrong information, let’s go back to the scenario as painted by the original poster and you’ll see not only how wrong you are, but how daft you are.

    The original price of the house as set by the developers is โ‚ฌ250k. However, the developers agree to sell the house for โ‚ฌ240k on the basis that 25% of that price is paid in cash. We now assume that the developers pocket that โ‚ฌ60k cash and set the notary price at the lowered figure of โ‚ฌ180k that the developers declare as being the price the house sold for. That โ‚ฌ180k now becomes the official sold figure for that house.

    Now let’s assume the reverse happens to the OP’s scenario and the house increases significantly in value as happened in the boom years prior to the bust. The owners of that house now sell at โ‚ฌ350k. The capital gains tax liability is now the sold price minus the bought price: โ‚ฌ180k – โ‚ฌ350k = โ‚ฌ170k profit rather than the actual bought price of โ‚ฌ240k – โ‚ฌ350k = โ‚ฌ110k profit.

    Please explain to me in the simplest terms exactly how the hacienda is being diddled out of capital gains tax in that scenario and how, in your repeated words, the hacienda ignores the price and sets its own selling price? The reality of course is that the hacienda are actually getting far more capital gains tax than they should be getting. I don’t think the hacienda would mind owners ‘fiddling’ their taxes in this way.

    In the OP’s original scenario, the price of the house has collapsed by half. It doesn’t make the slightest difference whether the official bought price was set at โ‚ฌ180k or โ‚ฌ240k if you’re selling at โ‚ฌ120k – no capital gains tax is due, because no profit has been made using either of the two figures, the official figure or the unofficial figure.

    The actual scenario you and I think the original poster are actually referring to but has never been made clear because of your muddled thinking (and extremely poor and irrelevant example given by the OP) is the follows:

    In a small community of similar type houses you buy a house (without any cash payments to the original seller) at โ‚ฌ250k which is declared to the notary at the price of โ‚ฌ250k. You stay there 5 years and all the house values in the community for similar type houses increases to โ‚ฌ350k. That is the accepted current market price of those houses – โ‚ฌ350k. You now agree to sell that house to a buyer at โ‚ฌ325k on the condition they pay you โ‚ฌ50k cash. The seller then doesn’t declare that โ‚ฌ50k cash payment and registers the sale of the house at the notary at โ‚ฌ325k – โ‚ฌ50k = โ‚ฌ275k, thus decreasing their capital gains exposure to the hacienda of only โ‚ฌ25k (โ‚ฌ250k – โ‚ฌ275k).

    The hacienda looks at the registered price of โ‚ฌ275k and looks at the current market value of those houses at โ‚ฌ350k and would well be in their rights to demand an explanation of why the registered value is โ‚ฌ75k less than the current market prices. They would indeed be highly suspicious that someone was fiddling the figures to reduce their capital gains exposure.

    That of course is a completely different scenario to the one painted by the OP in their post and of course simply doesn’t apply in a market where prices have fallen so much that no profits are actually being made.

    @katy wrote:

    Anyway if you want to justify tax fiddling ok. Just do it

    I’m not justifying tax fiddling, I’m merely pointing out several things. 1/ Just how poor and irrelevant the original post was in demonstrating and showing an example of property price under declaration and 2/ Just how misinformed, ignorant and muddled some of the thinking and opinions are on this subject.

    @katy wrote:

    Have I got it right…all your superior knowledge and you bought in….Almeria

    I never claimed to have superior knowledge, merely knowledge and understanding of the facts pertaining to property tax in Spain as opposed to a general ignorance and misunderstanding of those facts.

    I’ll simply ignore the jibe at where my own personal flat is located as being irrelevant to the discussion. Would having a flat in a more desirable (according to you) location make me more knowledgeable about these issues? Because it clearly hasn’t with you. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115597
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Yes, it happens at the same time buyers are charged extra for under declaring. Not to us as we were residents but a friend who paid the 3% retention found out it had been calculated that he owed more than the 3%. Even though he took a hit and made a loss ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    You’re still spouting misinformed information. Don’t you ever stop?

    How do you know the 3% retention wasn’t used to pay back non-resident property taxes that so many non-resident Spanish property owners either have no clue about let alone pay every year? They’re yearly and based on the valor cadastral, yearly means they get paid every year!

    You assume (probably wrongly) that the 3% was used for under-declaring (whatever that is supposed to mean) when in all probability it was the non payment of those non resident taxes.

    If this person made a loss then the only taxes he would have paid would have been the plusvalia and any other annual taxes that hadn’t been paid annually – the IBI, non-resident income tax. NO capital gains tax would have been payable.

  • #115598
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    Although not used to calculate a market price, for tax purposes the valor catastral is used to calculate an official price in Andalucia (and I assume all regions) called ‘valor fiscal’. Although it does not affect the seller it can lead to higher costs for the buyer., as if they buy below this amount, they do have to pay the transfer tax/IVA on the difference.

    That’s useful to know, thanks for pointing this out. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #115599
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    Katy, are you sure he simply did not owe taxes (wealth tax/non-resident)?

    Exactly.

    It’s highly likely that if this person made a loss, it would be non-resident back taxes that hadn’t been paid that would have accounted for the 3% retention.

    It’s staggering just how many non resident property owners are completely oblivious to these, probably because you are responsible for declaring and paying them yourself. Ignorance is no excuse.

  • #115600
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Listen tosser, I will say this once more You are wrong…did you used to be on here before…familiar style. ๐Ÿ˜›

    I lived there almost 15 years and I know what is happening. hacienda are a law to themselves. I know people who have been affected. I didn’t say hacienda set the price, i just said they took the assumed price and wouldn’t budge.

    Now let’s assume the reverse happens to the OP’s scenario and the house increases significantly in value as happened in the boom years prior to the bust. The owners of that house now sell at โ‚ฌ350k. The capital gains tax liability is now the sold price minus the bought price: โ‚ฌ180k – โ‚ฌ350k = โ‚ฌ170k profit rather than the actual bought price of โ‚ฌ240k – โ‚ฌ350k = โ‚ฌ110k profit.

    Agree, never said I didn’t! I never said hacienda was being diddled out of tax, quite the opposite. Why not read the posts properly ๐Ÿ™„

    As for my friend…because I KNOW why they did not get any retention. Wasn’t listening to some rude barsteward on a forum.

  • #115601
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @mgspain wrote:

    As a stand alone subject the plus valia is very relevant and could be helpful to anyone thinking of buying/selling at this moment in time. The information on CGT is hardly breaking news.

    Yes the plus valia is useful to know about but I’ll say again, not relevant to what the original poster was referring to which was capital gains tax. My whole purpose of posting the information I did was to clarify the situation with facts. This of course was then exacerbated by the original posters mates climbing in and trying to support and justify her nonsense, of which you unfortunately were one of, although in no way as bad at the muddle katy has got herself into. She I’m afraid is a classic example of someone who knows a little information and who is extremely dangerous with it.

    @mgspain wrote:

    As for a rational debate, I don’t think we’ll be having one.

    That of course is entirely your prerogative, but I usually find that with people who realise I cannot be brow beaten by irrelevant and misinformed fluff. I like deal in facts, not suppositions, assumptions or opinions.

  • #115602
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Perhaps you could read this instead of putting out misinformation…I said they are a law unto themselves

    http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/property-tax-probe.aspx

  • #115603
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Listen tosser, I will say this once more You are wrong

    This discussion is now over.

    I’m not prepared to be insulted by someone who is quite obviously as stupid and clueless as you are.

    I couldn’t care less how long you’ve lived in Spain, I couldn’t care less whether you speak Spanish or not and I couldn’t care less how many houses you’ve bought and sold.

    The information you’re posting here is wrong. End of, as far as I’m concerned.

  • #115605
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Not read the link then, proved you wrong didn’t it, and I am correct
    This discussion is now over. Thank god for that, now piss off :mrgreen:

  • #115606
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Perhaps you could read this instead of putting out misinformation…I said they are a law unto themselves

    So the Province of Valencia region are corrupt and trying to extort more tax money from unsuspecting buyers. Why are you surprised that Spanish officials are corrupt?

    Does this happen all cross Spain in all regions? No. Is it standard procedure? No. Is it being done by hacienda (the Spanish Tax man?) No.

    Keeping believing and re-spouting the rubbish you read. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115607
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Listen tosser, I will say this once more You are wrong…did you used to be on here before…familiar style. ๐Ÿ˜›

    I lived there almost 15 years and I know what is happening. hacienda are a law to themselves. I know people who have been affected. I didn’t say hacienda set the price, i just said they took the assumed price and wouldn’t budge.

    Now let’s assume the reverse happens to the OP’s scenario and the house increases significantly in value as happened in the boom years prior to the bust. The owners of that house now sell at โ‚ฌ350k. The capital gains tax liability is now the sold price minus the bought price: โ‚ฌ180k – โ‚ฌ350k = โ‚ฌ170k profit rather than the actual bought price of โ‚ฌ240k – โ‚ฌ350k = โ‚ฌ110k profit.

    Agree, never said I didn’t! I never said hacienda was being diddled out of tax, quite the opposite. Why not read the posts properly ๐Ÿ™„

    That’s one of the funniest posts I’ve read for a long time, and for once I’m not at the receiving end of it. ‘Listen tosser!’ Hilarious.

    Zenkarma may have a terse writing style, but he knows his stuff. He sounds man enough to handle insults, even being called a tosser and barsteward in the same post.

    As for my friend…because I KNOW why they did not get any retention. Wasn’t listening to some rude barsteward on a forum.

  • #115608
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I don’t know what happened there, my copying and pasting skills are as bad as my googling ones.

  • #115609
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    He doesn’t know his stuff at all. The link I put on proves I was right. He was rude first, what do you expect me to say ๐Ÿ˜•

  • #115610
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Katy – if I was you, I’d give it a rest. This poster obviously knows his stuff, and you’re spitting insults because you know he’s knowledgeable on the subject to a degree you (and the rest of us) can only dream of.

    We’re privileged to have him on the boards – but I won’t be the one who tries to put him right on a subject.

  • #115611
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    The link I put on proves I was right.

    The link you posted proves that Spanish officials are corrupt and try it on – this site is littered with examples of Spanish corruption. That’s an exception, it is not the general rule of the whole country, nor the taxes that the majority of the population have to pay. That’s something you appear entirely unable to understand. You’re using the exceptions as a general rule when they’re clearly not, because you just don’t understand what the taxation rules actually are.

    Now stop screeching like a petulant harpie and listen to people who know what they’re talking about. ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #115612
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:

    Katy – if I was you, I’d give it a rest. This poster obviously knows his stuff, and you’re spitting insults because you know he’s knowledgeable on the subject to a degree you (and the rest of us) can only dream of.

    We’re privileged to have him on the boards – but I won’t be the one who tries to put him right on a subject.

    He isn’t right, the link from the costa blanca news proves it. Not that you aren’t biased. What would you know anyway…on all the property sites and never owned one ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115614
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @zenkarma wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    The link I put on proves I was right.

    The link you posted proves that Spanish officials are corrupt and try it on – this site is littered with examples of Spanish corruption. That’s an exception, it is not the general rule of the whole country, nor the taxes that the majority of the population have to pay. That’s something you appear entirely unable to understand. You’re using the exceptions as a general rule when they’re clearly not, because you just don’t understand what the taxation rules actually are.

    Now stop screeching like a petulant harpie and listen to people who know what they’re talking about. ๐Ÿ˜€

    An exception…what an excuse you are wrong, it’s happening all over. Does owning a holiday flat in Almeria make you an expert. You have nothing to back up your statement. Fuengi had to put you right too. Shown up for what you are ….a thinks they know it all idiot who read it in a a book. I am corect when I say it happens, the Costa blanca news says it does….all exceptions. I say your stuff is an exception…you were wrong and I have proved it…you only have marcarse to back you up and he would back anyone even Jake against me ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115616
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @zenkarma wrote:
    @katy wrote:
    The link I put on proves I was right.

    The link you posted proves that Spanish officials are corrupt and try it on – this site is littered with examples of Spanish corruption. That’s an exception, it is not the general rule of the whole country, nor the taxes that the majority of the population have to pay. That’s something you appear entirely unable to understand. You’re using the exceptions as a general rule when they’re clearly not, because you just don’t understand what the taxation rules actually are.

    Now stop screeching like a petulant harpie and listen to people who know what they’re talking about. ๐Ÿ˜€

    An exception…what an excuse you are wrong, it’s happening all over. Does owning a holiday flat in Almeria make you an expert. You have nothing to back up your statement. Fuengi had to put you right too. Shown up for what you are ….a thinks they know it all idiot who read it in a a book. I am corect when I say it happens, the Costa blanca news says it does….all exceptions. I say your stuff is an exception…you were wrong and I have proved it…you only have marcarse to back you up and he would back anyone even Jake against me ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    I’d listen to your views on Marbella maybe, but I’ve heard enough rubbish you’ve spouted over the years (coffee is generally 2 euros a cup, all the Spanish hate the British, it’s always cold in Valencia in the winter) to know you and the acuality are often miles apart. I’m still trying to work out whether you believe your own stuff, or if you’re working to an agenda.

  • #115617
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Same ole stuff marcarse. I proved you wrong there too. Getting to be your party piece…are you suffering from early dementia :mrgreen:

  • #115618
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    An exception…what an excuse you are wrong, it’s happening all over.

    Only by corrupt Spanish Regional Governments. You still don’t seem to understand (despite referring to hacienda several times) that this is a regional thing, nothing to do with hacienda who, as you also probably don’t understand are the ones that calculate capital gains tax. Which I’d like to remind you once again, was what the original post referred to.

    @katy wrote:

    Does owning a holiday flat in Almeria make you an expert. You have nothing to back up your statement.

    At no point have I ever tried to portray myself as an expert in Spanish property tax matters. Even having a basic knowledge and understanding of what taxes are levied and by whom and how they’re calculated seems way beyond your capabilities here. That still doesn’t make me an expert, it simply makes you someone who is utterly clueless.

    @katy wrote:

    Fuengi had to put you right too. Shown up for what you are ….a thinks they know it all idiot who read it in a a book.

    Fuengi added some useful information I wasn’t aware of, for which I was grateful for. Which merely goes to show I am not and don’t assume myself to be an expert on all Spanish tax matters.

    @katy wrote:

    I am corect when I say it happens, the Costa blanca news says it does….

    Oh yes, I forgot, just because the Costa Blanca News say it does makes it fact. Didn’t anyone ever tell you not to believe everything you read in the newspapers? Anyway, keep stomping your petulant harpie foot up and down and perhaps one day the rubbish you spew might become true.

    In the meantime anyone with half a brain-cell will continue to defer to the relevant Spanish tax offices for the factual information on exactly what taxes they charge on Spanish property and what they’re based on.

  • #115619
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:

    I’d listen to your views on Marbella maybe…

    She comes from (or lives in/owns property in) Marbella? That tells me all I need to know really. Dreadful place, full of Brits! Ugh!

  • #115621
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Green eyed as well. Another thing you don’t know Marbella is 70% spanish ๐Ÿ˜† So you expect everyone on the forum to believe you but not the Costa Blanca news.

    BTW all spanish regional governments are corrupt.

    OK getting bored Yawn yawn now you are a bullshitter and I have proved it ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #115622
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Green eyed as well. Another thing you don’t know Marbella is 70% spanish

    Not green eyed at all, I’m more than happy where my flat is located, and was bought specifically because it was a Spanish village. And for your information, where I’m located is 99.9% Spanish. So 30% British is full of brits as far as I’m concerned.

    @katy wrote:

    BTW all spanish regional governments are corrupt.

    Undoubtedly so, but not all of them are stupid enough to try and extort higher taxes from British property owners.

  • #115623
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Have visited Almeria several times but heard about some cheapish flats (they look a bit bland though) in a place called Garrucha, is it a sleepy fishing village or town, that might be bargains, anyone know it, and is it good value? ๐Ÿ™„ What’s the dust problem like there, I remember around Almerimar lots of pretty awful plastic and dust, but some years ago ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115625
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @mgspain wrote:

    @zenkarma wrote:
    @dbmarcos99 wrote:
    I’d listen to your views on Marbella maybe…

    She comes from (or lives in/owns property in) Marbella? That tells me all I need to know really. Dreadful place, full of Brits! Ugh!

    I don’t think anyone on here would argue that Marbella is a bit cheezy. Actually, the whole country is a bit cheezy, it was always where the rabble went, those who thought they were more sophisticated went to France, those who were sophisticated went to Italy. The artistic rich went to Monaco, the business oriented rich went to Switzerland. Claiming superiority in Spain is futile. (which is a mistake I made earlier today)

    Agree, but who is caliming superiority, I certainly wasn’tnever mentioned it ๐Ÿ˜ฎ we went to marbella by default as grandad bought us a casita fo a wedding present. Do/did like it though, the proper marbella not the Banus part.

    As for that zenkarma (all that mediation not done you much good has it) well just because marbella is 30% foreigners it doesn’t mean they are all Brits. think the largest group are moroccans followed by Latin Americans..you are really quite thick aren’t you ๐Ÿ™„ Why would you think there weren’t any other nationalities ๐Ÿ˜• Can’t prove your point so you resort to pulling down the place I lived and so do others…petty

  • #115626
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Yes, it happens at the same time buyers are charged extra for under declaring. Not to us as we were residents but a friend who paid the 3% retention found out it had been calculated that he owed more than the 3%. Even though he took a hit and made a loss ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    So if the authorities use their property valuation for calculating CGT then it makes no difference what you declare the price you paid/sold the property for. In which case when it comes to CGT it doesn’t matter if you use black money to buy a property, the price you (under) declare you paid for the property doesn’t come into the CGT calculation. In fact it doesn’t come into any of the tax calculations as far as I can tell.

  • #115627
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Have visited Almeria several times but heard about some cheapish flats (they look a bit bland though) in a place called Garrucha, is it a sleepy fishing village or town, that might be bargains, anyone know it, and is it good value

    Yeah, it’s a really cheap and nasty place I wouldn’t go anywhere near it, specially as it’s full of Spanish without a Brit in sight. If you can’t speak Spanish I’d definitely stay away as no-one will understand you.

  • #115628
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @angie wrote:

    Have visited Almeria several times but heard about some cheapish flats (they look a bit bland though) in a place called Garrucha, is it a sleepy fishing village or town, that might be bargains, anyone know it, and is it good value? ๐Ÿ™„ What’s the dust problem like there, I remember around Almerimar lots of pretty awful plastic and dust, but some years ago ๐Ÿ™„

    Almerimar ๐Ÿ˜ฏ we had a golfing holiday there. I remember the plastic. More outstanding were the flies..drove us crazy. Even Africa and the jungle has less ๐Ÿ˜†

    I went to garrucha once, plenty of Brits there then…maybe most of them left ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115629
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    So if the authorities use their property valuation for calculating CGT then it makes no difference what you declare the price you paid/sold the property for. In which case when it comes to CGT it doesn’t matter if you use black money to buy a property, the price you (under) declare you paid for the property doesn’t come into the CGT calculation. In fact it doesn’t come into any of the tax calculations as far as I can tell.

    Exactly.

    But you can’t convince these numpties of anything, because they know better and call you a pillock for correcting them. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115630
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    About time you did a bit of your mediating. Thought that sort of crap was supposed to make people nicer ๐Ÿ˜•

  • #115631
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Agree, but who is caliming superiority, I certainly wasn’tnever mentioned it

    I think you’ll find you did, by deriding Almeria where my flat is located, yet when it’s flicked back at you suddenly you have memory loss? A theme that one of your buddies now appears to have picked up on. ๐Ÿ™„

    That’s three people in here that have found it perfectly acceptable to deride Almeria, just because that’s where my flat is located. One was courteous enough to apologise, the other two harpies merely harp on about it.

    Yet you feign innocence and surprise with some of the muck you throw comes back at you?

    @katy wrote:

    … just because marbella is 30% foreigners it doesn’t mean they are all Brits

    There’s far too many Brits living in Marbella for me and it’s not just the fact they’re Brits it’s the type of Brits they are. I’d rather not be anywhere near them thanks very much and I don’t care what percentage of Marbella are Brits and what percentage other nationalities. I find the vast majority of Brits in Spain to be an embarrassment and I’d rather not be associated with them. But that’s just me.

    I’m sure you like it there for all the reasons I disike it. And that’s why I said it explains all I need to know.

  • #115632
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Inverted snobs who don’t want to be near Brits but buy in Andalucรญa. Seen those types, the spanish hate them :mrgreen:

  • #115634
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Seen those types, the spanish hate them

    There appears no end to your obvious ignorance, no wonder you live in Marbella. ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #115635
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Costa del Polythene. Where non British immigrants work for 4 euro per hour in unhealty conditions. The worse view of it all is when it tears, goes brown and flaps in the wind. I almost feel sorry for you mediator ๐Ÿ˜† no I don’t you are a spiteful nasty barsteward. ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://geographyfieldwork.com/CostadelPolythene.htm

  • #115637
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Costa del Polythene. Where non British immigrants work for 4 euro per hour in unhealty conditions. The worse view of it all is when it tears, goes brown and flaps in the wind. I almost feel sorry for you mediator ๐Ÿ˜† no I don’t you are a spiteful nasty barsteward

    My flat isn’t located anywhere near any of that, it overlooks the sea and there’s plenty of cheap, fresh vegetables in the markets as well as fresh seafood. I’m happy ๐Ÿ˜€

    Have another go!

  • #115638
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I must admit I’m enjoying this thread. At least all of us have some knowledge of this lovely country.

    @katy. Be proud of your 15 years in Spain. You post some nasty stuff, repeatedly, but I sit up and listen when you post. I strongly suspect there is a personal reason for your nastiness which is unfortunate but understandable.

    We are what we are, fallible human beings; we fall in love with the wrong people, make terrible business decisions, and forget that you get skin cancer from lying in the hot Spanish sun.

    And Almeria? It’s not any different to the rest of Spain and comes under the jurisdiction of the old boys in Sevilla, a queer brand of Spanish socialists which is hard for Brits to understand. I liked Felipe, the first Spanish leader after Franco, I think.

    He was a lovable rogue, the current lot are rogues too, but unlovable.

  • #115640
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ps, Garrucha is a nice fishing port. Very Spanish but just down the road from Mojacar which is more of a Brit area. It used to be famous for artists and actor types. They are working hard to clean up the image. They have a big Moors & Christians festival there as well.

    Garrucha has some fantastic fish restaurants, have spent a good afternoon eating prawns there.

    More Brit is Palomares but Villaricos is very mixed but probably more Spanish from my husbands town who have had holiday homes there since the 1960’s. San Juan de los Terreros is another closeby little beach town which I do really like. The beach is fantastic, white and has wooden walkways all along with chiringuitos.

    Each to there own I guess.

  • #115641
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    pps, San Juan is very French and Dutch rather than Brits.

  • #115642
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @itsme wrote:

    Garrucha has some fantastic fish restaurants, have spent a good afternoon eating prawns there.

    Las gambas rojas de Garrucha. The place is famous for them, all caught round the coast of Garrucha. And they are delicious.

    You certainly know your places ๐Ÿ™‚

    Vera is pretty ‘Brit’ on the other side too.

  • #115643
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I know that area as we have a flat in Cuevas del Almanzora. A lot of my husbands family live in Vera and between the town and the playa it is a bit of a mix I would say. A lot of very wealthy Spanish have property there as well. Antas is a tiny town but lots of fruit production money there as well.

    Yum, making me think of those enormous prawns, they really are lovely.

  • #115644
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @itsme wrote:

    I know that area as we have a flat in Cuevas del Almanzora. A lot of my husbands family live in Vera and between the town and the playa it is a bit of a mix I would say. A lot of very wealthy Spanish have property there as well. Antas is a tiny town but lots of fruit production money there as well.

    Yes, there’s some lovely properties around there. A lot of Spanish have holiday homes in Garrucha too in fact it’s predominantly wealthy Spanish who have holiday homes there. Have you been to Carboneras? As I think that’s lovely.

    But please don’t talk the area up too much, I have an arrogant pillock reputation to maintain. ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #115645
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have a confessions to make. I have good expat friends in Playa Mojacar, Playa Vera, and other Playas.

    I live five miles from a Playa now. I visit as often as I can. There’s a Spanish ‘buffet libre’ overlooking the beach, selling mind-blowing stuff that makes you fat.

    I guess I’m a Playa person, one beach that we go to, a Spanish beach, has hundreds of Madrilenos standing shoulder to shoulder well out into the sea.

    I must admit I’ve seen the same thing at Southend on a bank holiday. Well, it they send me back, I’ll be back there with the jellied eels and mash.

    I think I can handle it.

  • #115646
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Pon my soul, now Zen, now Zen, you’re doing a good job, you are a funny guy ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115647
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    You do realise that most spanish prawns are imported now…google it ๐Ÿ˜€ The Med is almost dead thanks to Spanish fishing methods ๐Ÿ™

  • #115649
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @mgspain wrote:

    So you recruited your friend to help you out on this forum. Rocker, I thought you had more dignity and self confidence than that.

    Yes, shame on you Rocker that someone else might just happen to agree with you.

    You’re just a playa. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #115650
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    You do realise that most spanish prawns are imported now…google it ๐Ÿ˜€ The Med is almost dead thanks to Spanish fishing methods ๐Ÿ™

    Of course. Garrucha must import all their gambas rojas as they have far too many of them to have caught them all in the overfished med ๐Ÿ˜€

    Shame on them.

  • #115651
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mgspain wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    I have a confessions to make. I have good expat friends in Playa Mojacar, Playa Vera, and other Playas.

    So you recruited your friend to help you out on this forum. Rocker, I thought you had more dignity and self confidence than that.

    Can I just say with as much dignity as I can muster that I don’t know the geezer from Adam. To be honest, having read his increasingly silly posts, I think he’s just another arsehole.

  • #115654
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You’re a nutter.

  • #115658
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    How did all that happen? Not to worry, I’m me, Rocker, my only name on this forum.

    I have a tale to tell about disappointments in life. Being sociable people who try to help others, we sometimes meet in some out-of-the-way finca to let off steam and get pissed under a burning sky. One of our close friends lost his wife a couple of years ago and we tried to support him through his grief. He was a steadfast and solid guy who deserved it.

    Steadfast and solid? He has now grown a pony tail and is getting married to a Russian woman half his age. Disappointed? Gutted, more like. You can easily lose faith in your fellow human beings and it turns you a tad cynical.

  • #115661
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

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