The end of the spanish miracle

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This topic contains 34 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 8 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #54157
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    Anonymous
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  • #85072
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    Anonymous
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    Jose Maria Fidalgo: “….a veces, lo que es bueno para el corazón, es malo para el hígado”

    “….sometimes what is good for the heart, is bad for your liver”

    Something the Spanish government would do well to remember next time round, when it comes to turning a blind eye to property-related corruption just because of the enormous tax revenues it brought in.

    It should be on a plaque in every government office and every town hall – just to remind them……. “lest they forget”.

  • #85075
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    Anonymous
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    charlie

    hard to see a ‘next time round’ at the moment. Untill the Spanish government really comes to terms with how much crap there is, in the way of unwanted buildings, ruined landscape, demolitions, corruption and huge compensation claims stretching out years, it’s hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel? It’s hard to see the costas being anything but a mess even at the of a world recession, without a massive change in attitude and a real acceptance of the current situation.

    I still get the feeling they are just making small gestures towards doing the right thing, and still just hope it will sort itself out?

  • #85078
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    Anonymous
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    Its not Spanish psyche to learn from such matters. The mentality of living for today and not worry about tomorrow.

    If and when the next turn comes there will be a completely new generation in charge of things.

  • #85082
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    Anonymous
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    I agree ! what I think though that there will be a new generation but what Values will they have is the question? If they are moral decent people who are honourable and thrustworthy then they will be on the right path and there will be hope for the future.
    On the other hand if they are anything like their predecessors and are motivated by greed and have no concience or no concept of right or wrong then it will continue to be a downward spiral for Spain and the Spanish economy and people. Lets just hope that it is the former.

  • #85084
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    Anonymous
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    “what I think though that there will be a new generation but what Values will they have is the question?”

    I know many from the current generation & also know very well that they were given the right up bringing, with high morals, integrity etc, as in most cases I know their parents & families and they would not have brought up their families any other way.

    “If they are moral decent people who are honourable and trustworthy then they will be on the right path and there will be hope for the future.”

    The problem is that like everywhere, they see things which they know are wrong. If they cant beat the system then they join it. Morals don’t pay mortgages, keeping up with the Jones, computer games for children etc. Society/laws manage & control this.
    If the legal system does not work. Where does the fair society go ???

    “On the other hand if they are anything like their predecessors and are motivated by greed”

    I believe greed is good it keeps people motivated, again like everything in life greed has to be managed.

    ” and have no conscience or no concept of right or wrong”
    In today’s time, who can say what is right or wrong. conscience is a flickering candle it has to be revived by society from time to time.

    then it will continue to be a downward spiral for Spain and the Spanish economy and people. Lets just hope that it is the former.

  • #85100
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    Anonymous
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    shakeel said

    ”In today’s time, who can say what is right or wrong”

    thanks heavens (some) judges don’t think like you! For heavens sake, in most cases reported on this forum, there is a very clear line between right and wrong!

    Those who can’t tell the difference are the main reason that many people and a large part of Spain is in the current mess!!

  • #85107
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    Anonymous
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    I totally agree with goodstitch.
    it is the total disregard for right and wrong that has mostly caused this
    meltdown in the first place.
    It is WRONG …to take someones deposit while knowing all along that the property is not going to be built.
    It is WRONG…. to keep stringing people along month afterr month , year after year saying, Manana your property will be ready.
    It is WRONG…to look people in the eye and continue to lie to them.
    When we enter into a contract to buy a property from someone we do not think to ourselves “Oh I hope he is honest and knows right from wrong”…No we expect them to be honest and thrustworthy and know right from wrong. It is not a perfect world I agree and there will always be unthrustworthy people out there but in the case of Spain it appears that all of us on this forum have encountered people who obviousley do not know right from wrong and I believe they are all motivated by greed. They could build/sell the properties the legal way , it may not be as fast in moving but they would do everything the legal way and we would all be happy but no! they want a quick buck and don’t care who gets hurt in the process.

  • #85109
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    bettyboo

    well said. It’s a close call to know who is the most guilty? the greedy liars and cheats, or those in a position of power to stop them, doing almost nothing to disuade them, and sometimes not serving justice to those clearly wronged.

  • #85110
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
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    @bettyboo wrote:

    When we enter into a contract to buy a property from someone we do not think to ourselves “Oh I hope he is honest and knows right from wrong”…No we expect them to be honest and thrustworthy and know right from wrong.

    ???
    I’m sorry bettyboo, maybe i misunderstand what your trying to say here. You enter into a contract because you can’t trust people. Because if they were honest and know right from wrong, then a verbal agreement would be enough.
    A contract is there to make sure both parties live up to the agreement and what penalties are in place if not.

  • #85111
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    Anonymous
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    Fuengi

    but there still has to be an element of trust. Look at the priors case, they followed the rules, was told by the council their house was legal, now it’s a pile of rubble!

    We had to trust our agent and our first lawyer when they both said there was a building license, it was lies. We believed our second lawyer when he said he had obtained a BG. That was also a lie, we never had one. He also advised us to complete with no LFO. Bad advice, but left to me to query and find a third lawyer!

  • #85172
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    katy
    Spectator
  • #85176
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    Anonymous
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    ” thanks heavens (some) judges don’t think like you! For heavens sake, in most cases reported on this forum, there is a very clear line between right and wrong”

    Goodstich44, what is right or wrong is very subjective and varies according to Country, culture, business practises, laws etc. Its not for any of us to establish what is right or wrong according to our teachings or brought up, irrespective of what people express on the forum.

    If, I was a judge for a day. I know exactly what I would do and at the end of the day have a plastic surgery, obtain a new identity & live some where like Brazil, Panama etc.

  • #85179
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    Anonymous
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    As far as I am concerned ….It does not matter what country in the world , what culture you belong to …It is WRONG to take money from people under false pretence ie…taking our money for a property when they know it will never be legal and in most cases never be built to begin with. There is no grey area here…that is just wrong!

  • #85183
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    shakeel

    liars and cheats are wrong. honest and trustworthy is right!

    bettyboo

    seems like some really don’t know right from wrong.

  • #85186
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    Anonymous
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    Well, the ‘miracle’ of Spain remaining the no. 1 holiday destination for the British may be waning:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/2283550/Credit-crunch-Turkey-overtakes-Spain-as-most-popular-holiday-destination.html

  • #85187
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    angie
    Spectator

    Goodstich, Bettyboo and others have said it correctly, basically it is completely wrong, immoral, illegal, fraudulent etc etc for estate agents, developers, lawyers, notaries, town halls, Banks, individuals and others involved in selling Spanish property to lie through their teeth as they have done for years to trusting purchasers.

    The Spanish Gov’t are just as guilty even corrupt IMO for allowing this to go on for so long, at the same time not punishing those committing the deception, and even now they are doing almost nothing in real terms to make matters better quickly. The Court procedure is a joke and nightmare for people to go that route maybe 7 years plus up front costs.

    The bodies set up like AIPP, FOPDAC are jokes too since they welcome Agents with open arms even those who commit the crimes. Motor Manufacturer awards for best agent, developer, development and the rest are also complete jokes as these awards are bought too.

    The Spanish Gov’t is head in the sand and doesn’t admit it’s economy is in crisis.

    Spain’s property reputation has been harmed beyond belief and may not recover, and it is doubtful if the 2 mill. unsold properties will ever sell.

    As Mark recently wrote, many of these ugly developments will stand empty and could become ghost towns.

    Spain deserves what it’s going to get, it’s no longer a good place to buy on the main Costas, do not be duped by agents saying it’s a buyer’s market, it will fall for ages.

    There that’s better!

  • #85189
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    Inez
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    There is another reason why other destinations take no1 at times – when I was in rentals a few years ago, many of the clients were people who had bought off plan and were out for a holiday to see how their place was coming along, or to complete. Of course once they had, then their property added to the list of rental units which diluted the market.

    Hence you will see other countries having holidaymakers go en masse to see their other bought properties

    It may even be Bulgarias turn soon!!!!

  • #85190
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    angie
    Spectator

    You’re probably right there Inez about Bulgaria and other countries even Turkey, Cyprus etc the main difference though is the scale in Spain is much larger than those, but it’s bound to happen there.

    Unfortunately some agents who are genuinely trying to run honest businesses in Spain are to some extent being tarred with the same brush as the crooked agents and it must make things very difficult for them.

  • #85191
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    Well said Angie,you obviously feel a lot better getting that of your chest, if I may be so bold.

    I agree with everything you say, where a lot of people make a mistake is in thinking this corruption, deceit is a new phenomenon. In about 1987 Thames Television did a programme about property in Spain, the title was something like Sun, Sea and Swindle. The programme was made up of three themes, (1)introducing the area showing the life style ,(2)people who had been swindled, in those days it was a different type of swindle, houses were sold twice or more times to unsuspecting buyers this was possible as the lawyers did little or no checking, the Land Registry worked very slowly so it was quite easy to sell a property umpteen times. The other con at the time was for a developer to sell properites to unsuspecting buyers then before completion take out a large mortgage which would only `show up on the title deeds later, thousands mainly Brits found when they wanted to sell their property there was a mortgage on it , which the developer had taken out . The developer was no where to be found or had bancrupted the company and was now trading as as XYZ S.L and denied any liability for the activities of ABC S.L. Who ended up discharging the mortgage, right it was n´t the developer or the agent.

    Thirdly the tv crew followed around a load of mugs,sorry I mean property purchasers during a three day inspection flight,I am sorry to call them mugs but anyone who buys a property abroad on a 72 hour or less inspection flight deserves everything they get. The agent disappeared about a year after the programme was made and then came back 5 years later , using the same company name.. He was n´t worried ,the press were saying Spain offered wonderful opportunities, so he could perform all his tricks again to a new set of mugs.

    Things became difficult again up to 1997 , then the mugs started coming again. Large agencies opened luxury offices all along the coasts , young bucks were recruited who knew nothing about bad times, they were fed info that property is the only investment that ALWAYS goes up. Later interest rates became so low that the true rate became a negative figure.
    punters were told their mortgage was only costing 500 euros a month, rents were 700 a month,plus all that lovely price inflation. “Do n´t buy one property buy two or three this is a licence to print money”.became the mantra of these agents?, I place the ? ,as con men would be a more accurate description. Now it is all tears, negative interest has been replaced by negative equity, developers are going bust faster than most people can say Zapatero.

    Will we ever see the likes of Ocean Estates and others again? Not for many a year , but they will come back like the proverbial bad penny. People have short memories , money will be cheap again, fast talking spivs wearing red jackets will be back again saying how cheap property is in Spain. We must be vigilant keep this forum active , tell everyone about it.
    We should always remember hundreds of thousands of people have bought a property in Spain without a problem, they have lived and continue to live very well. That still does n´t mean they should sit back and knock back their g+t without a care for the people who have been caught up in these criminal activities. This forum must certainly shame the miscreants , advise people of possible pitfalls in buying in Spain or elsewhere.

    Spain will never clear up its act, all these arrests look good in the papers but how many of the offenders are banged up to rights. As we saw with Sr Gil, a good plea bargain lawyer can do wonders.

    Money is the new god , what worries me however is where all the bankcrupt Town Halls are going to find the money to pay all their idle staff that have been taken on during the boom and pay for all the grandiose schemes they embarked on : now that the building licences boom is over.

    However always look on the bright side and to quote the Master, Noel Coward,”Good times are just around the corner.” I for one am not sure how long the corner will be.

  • #85192
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    angie
    Spectator

    It’s great that at last many of us are singingfrom the same Hymn book and telling it as it is, and it’s not just sour grapes either, we haven’t all lost a packet but have had bad experiences to outline to others who may make mistakes.

    Can’t better your comments 135years etc, but certainly agree that it is unlikely that Spain will ever clean it’s act up, and yes sometime somewhere the spivs will be back duping more and more people.

    Some of Ocean’s people started another company caled Hestiun, many went to Livingstone Estates, many to H2O, and even some went to the Irish Company(we don’t mention), and those who started Ocean formed Polar GMD.(beware!)

    Zapatero is in denial about the economy, Spain is in crisis big time, most of the Coastal property developments have ceased, new golf courses are grinding to a halt, bankruptcies abound, tourists are staying away, golfers are now deserting the Costa courses due to the Costa golf greed, property taxes are drying up as is the water, crime will likely rise due to unemployment in above industries, it all looks pretty bleak.

    Now to top it all, because of less property development tax and stamp duties, town halls are trying to increase council taxes and the like to compensate, thereby further rubbing salt into the wound.

    Still Spain has the weather, a good football team and the Wimbledon men’s champion, so not all bad.

  • #85194
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    Anonymous
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    Only difference from the UK is the water is not drying up!!!

  • #85198
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    Anonymous
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    “Goodstich, Bettyboo and others have said it correctly, basically it is completely wrong, immoral, illegal, fraudulent etc etc for estate agents, developers, lawyers, notaries, town halls, Banks, individuals and others involved in selling Spanish property to lie through their teeth as they have done for years to trusting purchasers”

    Yes, we all know that’s wrong. In Spain they don’t think its wrong. This is the point that I had been trying to make. So by posting here or other forum and finding oneself in the predicament does not change things.

    One either takes action as the situation demands or vote with ones feet.

  • #85200
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    shakeel

    i’m not so sure about that? As you say, change wont come if people dont think it’s wrong, but i think forums like this really do make a difference. I think the majority of potential buyers (however few?) will google the Spanish property situation, and will very soon find all the negative reports, and realise something is very wrong!! Also, as the gain in property value is in reverse, and the other destinations available, this looks a hopeless combination for the Spaninish property market.

    People are indeed voting with their feet, hence the massive over supply of unwanted property, and building grinding to a halt, with many financial and job losses.

    I think if Spains costas are to recover, they must face this head on, admit the disaster it’s become and act very quickly to try and find a solution. If they don’t, it’s hard to know when the corner will even be in sight, that alone turning it?

    In the long term i think due to Spains location, weather, size etc, it’s bound to be popular again with northern europeans, but not until big change has taken place. When will that happen?

  • #85201
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    Anonymous
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    It’ll happen when the Spanish stop blaming the Brits for the illegal build situation and accept responsibility for the corruption in their society – plus do something about it!

    Unfortunately, I think it has become a way of life for them. The attitude seems to be (much like the Euro MPs and their expenses debacle) “well everyone else does it so why shouldn’t I”.

  • #85204
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    mike
    Participant

    @fran wrote:

    Unfortunately, I think it has become a way of life for them. The attitude seems to be (much like the Euro MPs and their expenses debacle) “well everyone else does it so why shouldn’t I”.

    So true. It’s moral hazard, a term I have only recently been acquainted with and I was scared that it might maintain the world wide property boom until I realised that it had already happened. We’ve been living with the consequences of moral hazard as governments around the world have done what was necessary to keep the populace (voters) solvent.

    And it has led to this. A whole population which knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

  • #85206
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    Anonymous
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    ” A whole population which knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.”
    Mike very profund statement.

  • #85210
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    Anonymous
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    ………i think in todays changing market, we often dont even know the right price, that alone the value?

  • #85213
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well said 135yearswaiting! The difference this time from the ’80s and ’90s I believe is the overhang of units. Anywhere from 150,000 – 1 million or more?? Who knows? Will they ever take up the slack – could they be demolished?

    One developer thinks we have it all wrong though and launched on Saturday (12th July) a new golf project called Playa Macenas Beach & Golf Resort in Mojacar, a 140 hectare golf course with 1,395 units!

    Now either, this is genius or madness – answers on a post card / email!!

    AP 😆

  • #85218
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    katy
    Spectator

    This is one thing I cannot understand, why are new developments still being started 😕 The only conclusion I can come up with is there must be an element of money laundering taking place.

  • #85220
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    Anonymous
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    katy

    yes, you really wonder who’s money this is, and who will lose if (when?) it goes wrong.

  • #85228
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    In the Costa Almeria news, it says that the Junta has authorised a billion worth of investment to bring 5 hotels and some golf courses to the Levante area, plus other things, so some proportion of the money must be going back to the Junta!
    They think it will increase high quality tourism!

  • #85229
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    katy
    Spectator

    Do they not think of the water situation! (most courses on the CDS are not using re-cycled water which they should be doing) Also many of the present golf courses are suffering from falling numbers. Golfing parties do not want to stay at a golf course in the middle on no-where.

  • #85237
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    Anonymous
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    It always amuses me when developers talk about golf projects attracting golfers who will rent apartments for big bucks. Anyone who has spent time in the autumn in Puerto Banus will tell you – the last place a golfer will be on an evening is on some Polarist hell hole in the middle of nowhere!

    AP

  • #85258
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @APotter wrote:

    It always amuses me when developers talk about golf projects attracting golfers who will rent apartments for big bucks. Anyone who has spent time in the autumn in Puerto Banus will tell you – the last place a golfer will be on an evening is on some Polarist hell hole in the middle of nowhere!

    AP

    Strange, we’ve had 3 re bookings this year, some golfers, some none golfers. Theres was a big article in the local paper about Polaris, it was very very positive, practically raving about the place (Mar Menor, La Torre and El Valle), and it wasn’t sponsored. The services on La Torre are improving every minute.

    I don’t think you’ll ever be talking big bucks and there is too much going up, but except on here, people who go, appear to like it, and many are re booking.

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