The 10 best places to buy abroad in 2011

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This topic contains 65 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 5 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #56045
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Despite all, Spain is still top of the list! 😉
    This has been pasted from : “A place in the sun” magazine January 2011 issue,

    At last, the definitive guide to the ten best places to buy a holiday home in 2011 has arrived. We’ve scoured the planet, researching standards of living and property options to give you the information you need to make your decision. The usual favourites are still there, but are this year complimentent by a couple of surprise new entries to the list too – will your dream destination measure up?

    Once again, Spain tops the list with hundreds of our readers and exhibition visitors telling us why they choose the land of sunshine and siestas to buy their hoiday homes. We look at the property options available right now and suggest some new locations you may not have considered. We learn what you can buy on a budget and find out the cost of buying and owning a detached four-bedroom villa in the mountains near Javea. We meet Kevin and Shirley Armitt who have bought a villa in Murcia after missing out on one after the infamous 2010 ash cloud.

    Unsurprisingly France came a close second with Brits still flocking across the channel to buy their second homes. We look at some different options and learn what mortgage options are currently available.

    Followed up by Portugal, Italy, Florida, Turkey, Greece and Cyprus, the top ten appears to be the usual line up of old favourites, but this year new entries Malta and Egypt completed the line up of top destinations

    http://www.aplaceinthesun.com/news/feature/tabid/131/EntryId/584/The-ten-best-places-to-buy-abroad-in-2011.aspx

  • #102192
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It doesn’t surprise me. For all its problems Spain is still a great place to live or go on holiday. if you avoid the pitfalls when buying – which you can do – then a property in Spain can bring you years of happiness, so long as you don’t look at it like a speculative investment.

    The other day I was talking to some strangers in the Ryanair queue at Liverpool airport. They were itching to get back to their house in Spain. They said many of their friends would love to get out of the UK and live in a place like Spain, at least part of the year. There are several good reasons why Brits are not buying in great numbers at the moment, but the dream of Spain persists, and I have no doubt there will be better years ahead.

  • #102195
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    agreed Mark ….

  • #102196
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    So we are to take as credible a commercial property exhibition organiser 😆 I know someone from the USA who used to pay for space at these events. They stopped attending the level of potential punters were so thin on the ground last year. They may be right, they maybe wrong but their bumff is done to publicise their next venue and attract more agents to rent out space.eems most people are at the stage where anything positive. however vague is clung on as gospel.

    I would say if you asked 5000 working class people where they would buy abroad about 4800 would say Spain but most of them will never aspire to own anything.

  • #102197
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I would say if you asked 5000 working class people where they would buy abroad about 4800 would say Spain but most of them will never aspire to own anything.

    Exactly. The dream of Spain persists, even if it is now slightly damaged goods. Some of theose dreams will be realised.

  • #102199
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    So we are to take as credible a commercial property exhibition organiser 😆 I know someone from the USA who used to pay for space at these events. They stopped attending the level of potential punters were so thin on the ground last year. They may be right, they maybe wrong but their bumff is done to publicise their next venue and attract more agents to rent out space.eems most people are at the stage where anything positive. however vague is clung on as gospel.

    I would say if you asked 5000 working class people where they would buy abroad about 4800 would say Spain but most of them will never aspire to own anything.

    Surprise surprise….I didn’t expect anything other than negative comments to be honest…
    At least Mark is seeing this as a positive thing.
    Whatever or whovever does the surveys or publicity, it is still good advertisement for Spain.
    It is the 2011 catalogue for property abroad which a LOT of people read and base their decisions on, so saying Spain is the No.1 place to buy is great news for Spain. And I am sure Spain will love the article! It’s too late for your opinion on this one anyway, it is published now and will be on the shelves for 2011 😀

  • #102205
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    So we are to take as credible a commercial property exhibition organiser 😆 I know someone from the USA who used to pay for space at these events. They stopped attending the level of potential punters were so thin on the ground last year. They may be right, they maybe wrong but their bumff is done to publicise their next venue and attract more agents to rent out space.eems most people are at the stage where anything positive. however vague is clung on as gospel.

    I would say if you asked 5000 working class people where they would buy abroad about 4800 would say Spain but most of them will never aspire to own anything.

    Surprise surprise….I didn’t expect anything other than negative comments to be honest…
    At least Mark is seeing this as a positive thing.
    Whatever or whovever does the surveys or publicity, it is still good advertisement for Spain.
    It is the 2011 catalogue for property abroad which a LOT of people read and base their decisions on, so saying Spain is the No.1 place to buy is great news for Spain. And I am sure Spain will love the article! It’s too late for your opinion on this one anyway, it is published now and will be on the shelves for 2011 😀

    Uhmm, didn’t this particular publication also trumpet Spain as the number 1 location for prospective buyers in 2010, 2009 and so on. I’m not sure that it has the influence on the market that has been ascribed to it, but I don’t suppose it can do any harm… oh, unless this is a previously unnoticed cause and effect situation… that’s a scary thought. 🙂

  • #102209
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I wouldn’t put much credence into anything ‘A Place in the Sun’ touts, it’s purely commercially led anyway, after all presenters like Amanda Lamb duped many Brits who had the dream of Spain etc into buying crap properties in crap locations, then came out with a follow up programme, ‘House Trapped in the Sun’. Dodgy build, illegal properties, high costs and all the scams to boot. Spain, Bulgaria, Turkey, Cape Verde, Cyprus etc etc – All of their markets have since ‘bombed’ since the original tv progs were aired.

    Yes the dream exists for many Brits often in less well-off areas of the UK, in a UK Winter, but what’s your best advice Mark for them to really avoid the scams and crooks? Who can they trust with confidence, naive people still get caught out? 👿

  • #102210
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    ‘Spain is slightly damaged goods’ Mark????? Are you serious?

    Spain is seriously damaged goods as your site has shown for years now, until they seriously address the common issues so often mentioned, the country will never be taken seriously again, and some mugs will still be caught out. 😥

  • #102211
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You would be surprised how much impact an article like that has on your “average joe” I would say a good 80% of people don’t even bother looking at forums like this when they buy a property. So it certainly won’t do Spain any harm.

  • #102218
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Thats what the organisers of the event hope will be the reaction and they will get feet through the door. Heard their last exhibition was almost deserted. Similar to agents who come on here claiming that properties are getting snapped up. I am sure some will believe it but not many. There have been some very negative TV programmes about Spanish property problems over the last 2 years.

  • #102220
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Selling or reinforcing ‘dreams’ to gullible people seems to me a poor way to make a living.
    Holiday homes in Spain are a financial disaster and that’s not being negative, just a statement of economic realism.
    There is a continual conflict on this forum between those who have an interest in talking up the Spanish property market and the rest who have a good understanding of the serious problems that exists in Spain.
    Any serious buyer should listen to both sides and keep their cash firmly in the bank.

  • #102224
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Selling or reinforcing ‘dreams’ to gullible people seems to me a poor way to make a living.
    Holiday homes in Spain are a financial disaster and that’s not being negative, just a statement of economic realism.
    There is a continual conflict on this forum between those who have an interest in talking up the Spanish property market and the rest who have a good understanding of the serious problems that exists in Spain.
    Any serious buyer should listen to both sides and keep their cash firmly in the bank.

    Why do you assume people are all gullible? Normal people do their homework prior to buying and make up thier own minds.
    Everywhere is in chaos right now but people are still buying property all over the world.
    I for one have just posted a link with some positive news, it’s not like I made it up. It is there in black and white. Are we never allowed to bring up any positives about Spain ever? I do wonder why you are SO against even a glimmer of hope. You have either been badly hurt by Spain in the past or you are after the dream property for a 2000 price.
    We are completely entitled to post good reviews or posts as you buyers are completely entitled to constantly post negative ones.
    Lets try to at least give Spain a CHANCE to recover and feel happy that things may start improving.
    As I say to anyone posting negatives who is looking to buy on here, if it is that bad, just go and buy somewhere else, why are you even bothering to wait for Spain to recover????

  • #102225
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    If people were not gullible, or easily led then so many would not now be facing financial ruin. They had misguided trust in property professionals and con artists.
    I agree you are entitled and should post positive news about Spain if it’s genuine. However there is precious little of that around.
    Spain is still for some a great place for a holiday but not property investment.

  • #102226
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan, that throw away comment could come back to haunt you: by the way there are hundreds of buyers snapping up bargains (sorry guys only great locations) right at this moment) ……… remember what Warren Buffet said – “be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy!”

    this is no different now !!!!!!!!!! sorry to be optimistic but frankly its true – the masses will be out with their cheque books in a year or two!!!!!!!!

  • #102228
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    Logan, that throw away comment could come back to haunt you: by the way there are hundreds of buyers snapping up bargains (sorry guys only great locations) right at this moment) ……… remember what Warren Buffet said – “be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy!”

    this is no different now !!!!!!!!!! sorry to be optimistic but frankly its true – the masses will be out with their cheque books in a year or two!!!!!!!!

    There is absolutely no evidence to back up your statements. Sales have never been lower in Spain, that a fact, and even the Spanish PM thinks things are going to get much worse.

    Spain and France have geography on their side, for the British and Irish its the obvious choice. The downside is that those countries economies and banking systems are fucked for many years to come. Keeping your home is far more urgent than speculating in unnecessary property abroad. So geography is also again Spain; the imaginary Baltic States buyers do have the luxury of many direct flights ( there are a total three from all three countries).

    UK retirees don’t want to move abroad anymore, healthcare is now a bigger issue and the economic and political situation is not attractive.

    UBEDA, I’m glad you are having such a busy time, surprising you have to to post about it here.

  • #102229
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The masses won’t be back UBEDA, they’ve not got the money nor borrowing power anymore, the Banks are too nervous to lend, then there’s Spain/Portugal Sovereign Debt, poor exchange rate for Brits, ridiculously high completion and re-selling costs, million plus over-supply of property in Spain, and dodgy dealers still to contend with.

    Logan summed it up in a nutshell. 🙄

  • #102230
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    by the way there are hundreds of buyers snapping up bargains (sorry guys only great locations) right at this moment) ………

    In your dreams perhaps 😕 . Where is the evidence?

  • #102231
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    …more positive news on the “news and Views” page on this website ❗
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2011/01/07/upscale-holiday-home-market-review-by-agents-engel-volkers/
    say what you like, but its all positive news coming up…lets hope 2011 is the year it all starts happening…. 🙂

  • #102234
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    If as an asset manager you listened to sales organisations for your information and investment decisions your fund would soon be bust.
    There needs to be a counter balance on here to the suggestion the market is turning. It is not. The current crisis in EU credit markets are enough indication that recovery in EZ peripheral states is a long way off.
    You need hard data to convince sceptics such as I that the Spanish property market has bottomed out.

  • #102235
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    If as an asset manager you listened to sales organisations for your information and investment decisions your fund would soon be bust.
    There needs to be a counter balance on here to the suggestion the market is turning. It is not. The current crisis in EU credit markets are enough indication that recovery in EZ peripheral states is a long way off.
    You need hard data to convince sceptics such as I that the Spanish property market has bottomed out.

    I completely agree with your argument, I am not disputing that. But not everyone is a data analyst/sceptic like yourself. This is why so many did purchase in the boom as there is not a great percentage of humans that sit in front a computer all day analysing the market. They listen to headlines and basically buy a property when they feel the need to or want to…..
    People who can not really afford to buy a second home or holiday home, will be waiting, and for a long time, if they are waiting for someone to say that the market has bottomed out. The prices will very gradually go down….
    All I will insist on is that there are buyers starting to look at the bargains creeping on to the market. For their main home really. I know first hand that in the costa dorada area, for example, estate agents have had sales of good properties in the best locations, these have been reduced in price already, but they have sold and they did not wait for the market to bottom out! People who do have the money spare, which is far and few between admitedly, are starting to look and will be doing so more and more now into 2011 to grab the good deals in good areas. Those who have recently purchased (in 2010) have not waited for the market to bottom out, and there are more like them around. It is the ones on the tight budget that will have a long wait to get that bargain, which is fair enough…but people with the money will buy if they think it is a good deal, they will not hang around, just like the ones who have purchased this past year have not hung around…properties did sell in 2010, so what about those?

  • #102237
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I know nothing about the costa dorada but the property market is still in the doldrums on the CDS. Russians, scandinavians, chinese( 😆 ) are not buying in significant numbers. The Russians have been “coming” to the CDS since about 2002 but they have not made a dent in the surplus.

    As for Engel and Volkers they have been churning out similar press releases for the last few years, perhaps they will be able to open a few of those offices they closed 🙄 All these agents keep doing a relaunch, tell the date by them the next round will be in March.

  • #102239
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    You have either been badly hurt by Spain in the past or you are after the dream property for a 2000 price.

    The reality is, people need homes at affordable prices. Unfortunatly, houses have been turned into investments, causing house price inflation which was fuelled by greedy bankers wanting to have every last one of us in debt up to our eyeballs, of course those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

    So, yes, many of us will take homes at 2000 prices, even less.

    Perhaps you like the idea of being massively in debt for a gnats knacker of land and few bricks, however its never been my idea of a good time.

  • #102240
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    this is no different now !!!!!!!!!! sorry to be optimistic but frankly its true – the masses will be out with their cheque books in a year or two!!!!!!!!

    You really dont get it.

    Let me try to explain… Quite simply, banks are not and will not be lending in the way they were previously, not for 10 years at least. It might have slipped your attention, but the entire worlds banking system nearly collapsed because of the housing bubble and the irresponsible lending that pumped the bubble. New regulations are being drafted that will actually prevent banks from overleveraging their customers with debt. The result being, people cant borrow 10x salary, they cant release equity from their first home, they cant get 110% mortgages and they now cant afford 200k+ for 2 bedroom apartments (which exist in the hundreds of thousands) in Spain.

    In this game of musical chairs, those without a chair when the music stopped turned out to be the winners, because property prices are going to fall dramatically, like it or not…

  • #102241
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, Spanish property values are falling. Yes, the Spanish economy is in trouble.

    For Brits, what a better time to come to Spain? All you need is a suitcase full of dreams and a desire to live in paradise. Leave the moaners behind, stretch out on the beach and enjoy the sunsets with a glass of Spanish wine.

    The world will keep on turning, the moaners will keep on moaning, leave them behind in their cold places.

  • #102242
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    @ethnatkev wrote:
    You have either been badly hurt by Spain in the past or you are after the dream property for a 2000 price.

    The reality is, people need homes at affordable prices. Unfortunatly, houses have been turned into investments, causing house price inflation which was fuelled by greedy bankers wanting to have every last one of us in debt up to our eyeballs, of course those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

    So, yes, many of us will take homes at 2000 prices, even less.

    Perhaps you like the idea of being massively in debt for a gnats knacker of land and few bricks, however its never been my idea of a good time.

    You are obviously looking at this as an investment yourself so you can make money from it. If you just wanted a home you would not be following the market with such scrutiny.
    Not everyone who purchased in the bubble was a greedy investor, you seem to have a hang up about peope who purchased in the bubble…
    When you buy a home you look at the prices of other properties when you purchase a house and you go for the one that fits your budget.

    There were probably a small percentage of people who purchased to make a lot of money, but they were doing what you are trying to do now. You know that if you end up purchasing a property at a 2000 price that will rise in value in time, so you are just as greedy as they were. Sorry to be so blunt. but I know a lot of people who purchased back then and I don’t like the way that you imply that we were all out to make a buck, because that is just not true.

    The banks were offering loans left right and centre and people purchased the house they always wanted. It is called human nature and a very common reaction if you have not been offered a mortgage in the past. Some people had just started a family, new job, so just wanted a home…You paid the price because those were the prices in those days end of. And yes, ultimately those people were ripped off. You can’t blame your average Joe for buying a house, or that second home in the sun, if you like. After all, that is what your intentions are also…

    No one in any market expects to buy a property and for it to be worth over 50% under what they purchased it for, how you can actually “blame” the people who purchased in the boom is out of order really.

  • #102245
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    You are obviously looking at this as an investment yourself so you can make money from it. If you just wanted a home you would not be following the market with such scrutiny.

    Youre very quick to tell people what they are, first Logan and now me. Please stop, it detract from your otherwise readable posts.

  • #102247
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    @ethnatkev wrote:
    You are obviously looking at this as an investment yourself so you can make money from it. If you just wanted a home you would not be following the market with such scrutiny.

    Youre very quick to tell people what they are, first Logan and now me. Please stop, it detract from your otherwise readable posts.

    I only say this as Logan has said he is looking to purchase and I thought you had also in a previous post, but I apologise if this is not so. Most people on here are either selling or buying and I thought you were one who was looking to buy.

    In another breath though, you can sit there and call all investors greedy….so you are also very quick to tell people what they are without knowing them….

  • #102251
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    In another breath though, you can sit there and call all investors greedy….so you are also very quick to tell people what they are without knowing them….

    I don’t want to get into verbal conflicts on here over what he or she said. It’s such a waste of time. However I would like to know why some posters think investors or speculators are ‘greedy’.
    Investors take high risks with their capital to make a return. Most relatively small investors such as I make a living in that way. I agree we try to maximise profit as and when possible but so does any other business. It’s their raison d’etre.
    It’s simply silly to label speculators as ‘greedy’. You might as well say all capitalism is greed and be done with it.
    I have in the past had successful property investments in Spain over a 30 year period. Those investments provided homes for Spanish as well as the extranjero. Yes my company made profits over the years but also some losses. That’s business not greed. Anyone who thinks otherwise does simply not understand how capitalism works.
    Without investment and the hope of decent returns society will stagnate and collapse. In Spain right now any investment is fraught with difficulties especially in the property sector. You would hardly expect anyone to risk their own money in this current environment without the expectation of rewards.

  • #102252
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    Unfortunatly, houses have been turned into investments, those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

    Logan I couldn’t agree more.

    I do hope that highlighting my last quote is not implying that I am calling anyone greedy, I meant “you (adiep) can sit there and call all investors greedy…
    I think you have misread what I said… I have always said that anyone buying a property obviously is not in it to lose money. It would be madness to say otherwise.

  • #102253
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    In another breath though, you can sit there and call all investors greedy….so you are also very quick to tell people what they are without knowing them….

    Gordon Bennett ! You do have a knack of missing the point doncha.

    From my previous post…

    @adiep wrote:

    those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

    Can you see how that is not the same as saying all investors are greedy, or that investing is itself greedy??

    Im referring to those who took leave of their senses, allowing greed to cloud their judgement because they thought prices would just keep rising. As someone who invests a fair amount myself, I know greed can be my worse enemy, it causes irrational thinking and dubious logic.

    EDIT: And I just noticed you edited what I wrote and then quoted me as writing your edited version. Very lame.

  • #102254
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Those who lost their senses in the boom were amateurs playing a professional game. They were not really greedy, just foolish or misguided, led by unscrupulous commission driven sales people.
    They have paid a huge price and are long gone.

  • #102255
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @ethnatkev wrote:
    In another breath though, you can sit there and call all investors greedy….so you are also very quick to tell people what they are without knowing them….

    I don’t want to get into verbal conflicts on here over what he or she said. It’s such a waste of time. However I would like to know why some posters think investors or speculators are ‘greedy’.
    Investors take high risks with their capital to make a return. Most relatively small investors such as I make a living in that way. I agree we try to maximise profit as and when possible but so does any other business. It’s their raison d’etre.
    It’s simply silly to label speculators as ‘greedy’. You might as well say all capitalism is greed and be done with it.
    I have in the past had successful property investments in Spain over a 30 year period. Those investments provided homes for Spanish as well as the extranjero. Yes my company made profits over the years but also some losses. That’s business not greed. Anyone who thinks otherwise does simply not understand how capitalism works.
    Without investment and the hope of decent returns society will stagnate and collapse. In Spain right now any investment is fraught with difficulties especially in the property sector. You would hardly expect anyone to risk their own money in this current environment without the expectation of rewards.

    Logan, he’s trying to drag you into a fictitious argument that he thinks im making – that all investing is greedy. Its not the point Im making.

  • #102256
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    Im referring to those who took leave of their senses, allowing greed to cloud their judgement because they thought prices would just keep rising. As someone who invests a fair amount myself, I know greed can be my worse enemy, it causes irrational thinking and dubious logic.

    You are still calling those investors greedy though!!! How do you know what they were thinking back then?
    Investing is a business, it was then and it is now. The only difference is those who invested in the boom paid a rip off price as opposed to the investors who are looking to purchase in Spain now. They were not being greedy they were paying the prices that were normal in those days. If they were lucky enough in those days to be able to afford to invest then good on them! They could not predict a crash like this. And you cannot blame them partly for the crash either. They certainly will think twice before investing again as they have now learnt their lesson. But you learn through years of experience, and this is a learning curve for all those who did invest in the boom years. Maybe they weren’t around in the 1990’s recession to know what impact a recession can have. They were probably doing what they thought at the time was a good investment. This is why I don’t agree with blaming any investors in those days. The only ones who see them as greedy are people who couldnt afford to jump on the band wagon themselves because of lack of funds in those days and are now rubbing their hands in glee seeing the failure of all of those who were doing well.

  • #102257
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    EDIT: And I just noticed you edited what I wrote and then quoted me as writing your edited version. Very lame.

    Oh grow up, what are you going on about me editing something you have said, where have I done this???!!!!

  • #102258
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Those who lost their senses in the boom were amateurs playing a professional game. They were not really greedy, just foolish or misguided, led by unscrupulous commission driven sales people.
    They have paid a huge price and are long gone.

    Not only those. The developers who took massive loans to keep building thousands properties when hundreds of thousands already existed. The banks that fed loans to those developers and didnt care so long as they could keep pushing loans at buyers to pump up the market. The whole operation stunk of greed and stupidity.

  • #102259
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    @adiep wrote:
    EDIT: And I just noticed you edited what I wrote and then quoted me as writing your edited version. Very lame.

    Oh grow up, what are you going on about me editing something you have said, where have I done this???!!!!

    this is what I wrote

    Unfortunatly, houses have been turned into investments, causing house price inflation which was fuelled by greedy bankers wanting to have every last one of us in debt up to our eyeballs, of course those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

    this is what you quoted me as writing

    Unfortunatly, houses have been turned into investments, those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

  • #102260
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    @ethnatkev wrote:
    @adiep wrote:
    EDIT: And I just noticed you edited what I wrote and then quoted me as writing your edited version. Very lame.

    Oh grow up, what are you going on about me editing something you have said, where have I done this???!!!!

    this is what I wrote

    Unfortunatly, houses have been turned into investments, causing house price inflation which was fuelled by greedy bankers wanting to have every last one of us in debt up to our eyeballs, of course those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

    this is what you quoted me as writing

    Unfortunatly, houses have been turned into investments, those greedy investors who thought that house prices only ever go upwards also have their share of the blame.

    😛 Yes, that is what YOU said, I just missed out the middle bit of your sentence (…causing house price inflation which was fuelled by greedy bankers wanting to have every last one of us in debt up to our eyeballs, of course…) and then I continued with what you said to get to the point. You said all those words not me!

  • #102261
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    Logan, he’s trying to drag you into a fictitious argument that he thinks im making – that all investing is greedy. Its not the point Im making.

    no one is trying to drag anyone into a fictitious argument, you wrote your posts no one else, they are there for all to read…
    anyway, I give up, it is like banging your head against a brick wall with you lot sometimes… I wish I’d never posted the positve post on here, I can now understand why no one bothers being positive on this site, cause you just get shot down every time….

  • #102262
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    😛 Yes, that is what YOU said, I just missed out the middle bit of your sentence (…causing house price inflation which was fuelled by greedy bankers wanting to have every last one of us in debt up to our eyeballs, of course…) and then I continued with what you said to get to the point. You said all those words not me!

    Again, proving that if there’s a point to be missed, you’ll miss it. I didnt deny writing those words. I accused you of editing what I wrote and then attributing your edit to me. The definition of the word editing includes chopping sentences and a rejoining them.

  • #102263
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    @adiep wrote:
    Logan, he’s trying to drag you into a fictitious argument that he thinks im making – that all investing is greedy. Its not the point Im making.

    no one is trying to drag anyone into a fictitious argument, you wrote your posts no one else, they are there for all to read…
    anyway, I give up, it is like banging your head against a brick wall with you lot sometimes… I wish I’d never posted the positve post on here, I can now understand why no one bothers being positive on this site, cause you just get shot down every time….

    You are trying to attribute an argument to me that states all investing is greedy. An argument I havent made and one therefore that is fictitious.

  • #102264
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    😛 Yes, that is what YOU said, I just missed out the middle bit of your sentence (…causing house price inflation which was fuelled by greedy bankers wanting to have every last one of us in debt up to our eyeballs, of course…) and then I continued with what you said to get to the point. You said all those words not me!

    Again, proving that if there’s a point to be missed, you’ll miss it. I didnt deny writing those words. I accused you of editing what I wrote and then attributing your edit to me. The definition of the word editing includes chopping sentences and a rejoining them.

    yes, but it does not change the meaning of what you wrote so therefore you have no need to bring it up, I was just trying to highlight certain words of what you said. Your sentence still has the same meaning edited or not.

  • #102265
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Methinks you both should take a deep breath, stand back for a while and ask yourself why you take part on this forum.
    My motive is simply intelligence. I am not interested in arguments or reinforcing any self image or ego.
    Some posts are useful, most are not and this thread has disintegrated into the latter.

  • #102266
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    You are trying to attribute an argument to me that states all investing is greedy. An argument I havent made and one therefore that is fictitious.

    You are the one who is twisting things now, I have never said you have said “all investing is greedy” On numerous occasions on this forum you have said you have no sympathy for those greedy investors in the boom years. So just read your previous posts and stop twisting what I am saying to make your argument look more credible, as I say everyone can read for themselves what has and hasn’t been said….

  • #102267
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    @adiep wrote:
    You are trying to attribute an argument to me that states all investing is greedy. An argument I havent made and one therefore that is fictitious.

    You are the one who is twisting things now, I have never said you have said “all investing is greedy” On numerous occasions on this forum you have said you have no sympathy for those greedy investors in the boom years. So just read your previous posts and stop twisting what I am saying to make your argument look more credible, as I say everyone can read for themselves what has and hasn’t been said….

    Ahem…

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    I only say this as Logan has said he is looking to purchase and I thought you had also in a previous post, but I apologise if this is not so. Most people on here are either selling or buying and I thought you were one who was looking to buy.

    In another breath though, you can sit there and call all investors greedy….so you are also very quick to tell people what they are without knowing them….

  • #102269
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    @ethnatkev wrote:
    @adiep wrote:
    You are trying to attribute an argument to me that states all investing is greedy. An argument I havent made and one therefore that is fictitious.

    You are the one who is twisting things now, I have never said you have said “all investing is greedy” On numerous occasions on this forum you have said you have no sympathy for those greedy investors in the boom years. So just read your previous posts and stop twisting what I am saying to make your argument look more credible, as I say everyone can read for themselves what has and hasn’t been said….

    Ahem…

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    I only say this as Logan has said he is looking to purchase and I thought you had also in a previous post, but I apologise if this is not so. Most people on here are either selling or buying and I thought you were one who was looking to buy.

    In another breath though, you can sit there and call all investors greedy….so you are also very quick to tell people what they are without knowing them….

    Still trying to twist what I am saying to make your argument look credible. That sentence clearly means: “you, adiep can sit there and call all investors in the boom years greedy”…THAT is exactly what you have been quoting on previous posts. THAT has a different meaning to me acusing you of saying “all investing is greedy” All I have ever been accusing you of is calling investors “in the boom years” as being greedy. Stop twisting what I say, it is getting rather boring now…

    I could also sit here picking up on your numerous posts quoting your accusations towards greedy investors, but I don’t think I need bother, others can have a read through them and see for themselves.
    Nuff said 😉

  • #102270
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    Still trying to twist what I am saying to make your argument look credible. That sentence clearly means: “you, adiep can sit there and call all investors in the boom years greedy”…THAT is exactly what you have been quoting on previous posts. THAT has a different meaning to me acusing you of saying “all investing is greedy” All I have ever been accusing you of is calling investors “in the boom years” as being greedy. Stop twisting what I say, it is getting rather boring now…

    I could also sit here picking up on your numerous posts quoting your accusations towards greedy investors, but I don’t think I need bother, others can have a read through them and see for themselves.
    Nuff said 😉

    I feel like im in the land of the strange 😯 Senor, Im not denying ive stated greedy investor have landed the Spanish property market and themselves in the sh*t. Why have you now started to make a point of that? Im not denying it !! 🙄

    Quite bizarre

  • #102271
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    …. However I would like to know why some posters think investors or speculators are ‘greedy’.
    Investors take high risks with their capital to make a return. Most relatively small investors such as I make a living in that way. I agree we try to maximise profit as and when possible but so does any other business. It’s their raison d’etre.
    It’s simply silly to label speculators as ‘greedy’. You might as well say all capitalism is greed and be done with it.
    I have in the past had successful property investments in Spain over a 30 year period. Those investments provided homes for Spanish as well as the extranjero. Yes my company made profits over the years but also some losses. That’s business not greed. Anyone who thinks otherwise does simply not understand how capitalism works.
    Without investment and the hope of decent returns society will stagnate and collapse. In Spain right now any investment is fraught with difficulties especially in the property sector. You would hardly expect anyone to risk their own money in this current environment without the expectation of rewards.

    I think Logan has hit the nail on the head….at least I am not the only one who disagrees with your views Adiep.
    And as I don’t want this to continue as we appear to be going around in circles this is the last I will say on the matter and you may have your last word as I am sure you will.

  • #102272
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    angie wrote:
    I wouldn’t put much credence into anything ‘A Place in the Sun’ touts, it’s purely commercially led anyway…quote]
    …well that doesn’t say much for this site then does it!

    http://www.aplaceinthesun.com/news/feature/tabid/131/EntryId/603/Even-cheaper-Spain-property-prices.aspx

    …just making a point….

  • #102273
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    @logan wrote:
    …. However I would like to know why some posters think investors or speculators are ‘greedy’.
    Investors take high risks with their capital to make a return. Most relatively small investors such as I make a living in that way. I agree we try to maximise profit as and when possible but so does any other business. It’s their raison d’etre.
    It’s simply silly to label speculators as ‘greedy’. You might as well say all capitalism is greed and be done with it.
    I have in the past had successful property investments in Spain over a 30 year period. Those investments provided homes for Spanish as well as the extranjero. Yes my company made profits over the years but also some losses. That’s business not greed. Anyone who thinks otherwise does simply not understand how capitalism works.
    Without investment and the hope of decent returns society will stagnate and collapse. In Spain right now any investment is fraught with difficulties especially in the property sector. You would hardly expect anyone to risk their own money in this current environment without the expectation of rewards.

    I think Logan has hit the nail on the head….at least I am not the only one who disagrees with your views Adiep.
    And as I don’t want this to continue as we appear to be going around in circles this is the last I will say on the matter and you may have your last word as I am sure you will.

    ethnatkev, you cant say who agrees and disagrees with me, as you clearly dont know what my views are anyway, youve spent the last 10 posts proving that by arguing that my views are: all investors are greedy. 🙄

    Or are you perhaps saying that investors cannot be greedy? The two words are mutually exclusive?

  • #102274
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    and the winner is …………………

    ………

    For what it’s worth, and returning to topic, my contribution to this fascinating discussion (I’ve lost track who’s side I’m on) I think Greece should have made it higher up the list. At least beating Turkey. 😯

    I think the PITS will always trumpet Spain knowing it appeals to the masses (purely because it’s where the Brits first kicked off to their package holidays/first steps abroad back in the sexties) and will therefore sell more of their boring, repetitive magazine.

  • #102276
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    There is a different way of looking at British people’s favourite places, with Spain heading the list every year, and I’m not talking about investors and speculators, they left years ago. Katy referred to it when mentioning the working classes.

    The UK is now a fairly wealthy nation, wealthier than Spain. The average working man reaching retirement age in the UK will probably have an average house without a mortgage valued at something like £180.000, and an average pension of more than £12,000 per annum.

    He is highly likely to be a socialist and will have had several recent holidays in Spain. He will have relatives, friends or former neighbours already living in Spain (a million expats are already here).

    He is unlikely to be reading forums such as this and will prefer the Sun to the Telegraph. The negative points about Spain, regularly trumpeted here and elsewhere, will pass him by.

    He will be able to sell his house in the UK and buy a similarly sized property here, with £60,000 left in the bank. His pension income will sustain him easily and he will be living among fellow expats in an area long developed to cater for pensioner expats, with an excellent free health service and unbeatable weather.

    And whether house prices in Spain fall over the short term will be of no interest to him. He’s coming here to spend his retirement in an ideal country, a strongly socialist one at that.

  • #102279
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    Rocker

    Rosie scenario, but why have the British all but stopped buying? Well, things have changed..

    The average home in the UK is now valued at £162K (Halifax) having fallen by £27K from peak . Sun readers are below average earners and therefore likely to own significantly less valuable property, they are also likely to have to get less that the average £12k annual pension. UK pensions are likely to keep falling as the final pension schemes get rarer and stingier.

    The fall in the pound adds another 25% income/cost shock to the situation, currency risk isn’t going away.

    Faced with the choice between investing in Spain, with the irretrievable buying costs, risks, depreciating asset value and unknown/know tax bills a pension could decide to invest their savings in more liquid assets and get a healthy appreciating return that exceeds the low rental costs of Spain. Result! Complete flexibility to live in Spain, Greece, Italy, Morocco etc, go on a cruise or return for a medical spell in the UK if needed. Cheaper than buying and peace of mind; assets increasing in value, property values falling.

    As for Sun readers being ‘socialist’. Ha ha.

  • #102283
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    There’s a misconception here because most commentators on this forum, myself included, tend to speculate on financial data, often plucked from obscure sources, to forward theories which are often quite unrealistic.

    My example of the average British pensioner wishing to retire to Spain and sell his UK house to buy one in Spain, for himself to live in, is not affected by our theorising in cyber space.

    The financial example I quoted, in a worst case scenario, is based on parity with the Euro, and none of data available points to anything like that. It would effectively be such a devaluation of the pound Sterling that the UK government could not allow to happen.

    What we also tend to forget is that the great majority of British expats in Spain are pensioners living in ordinary areas, in ordinary houses; it’s where they want to be and where they can afford to live.

    They couldn’t care less if the stock markets caught fire and government bonds were given away for free if you spend over a tenner at Tescos. Neither event would even get on to the front page of the Sun.

  • #102284
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rocker, I appreciate your desire to be positive but I’m afraid to my mind your rose tinted glasses are clouding your vision somewhat.

    – The western world is going through its biggest downturn since the 30’s. Yes the main trauma was probably two to three years ago but given the severity of the problems still faced recovery will probably take the best part of a decade. I live in one of those European economies (NL) that has come out of this relatively unscathed. Even here people are still cautious.

    – Be people Sun readers or not. Be they interested in the markets or economics or not. They are still driven by sentiment. By how wealthy they feel. For all the reasons outlined by Logan, Charlie, Adiep and others most people now feel poorer and less secure in their employment than they did some five years ago.

    – The ECB is leaning on European banks to recapitalize. This is going to take many years. Only once they complete this process will they start lending in any normal way. Even then it will be 80-90% LTV. The days of 100% 5x earnings mortgages are well and truly over.

    – Justified or not, Spain has allowed its reputation as a place to buy property to be badly damaged. This applies not just in the UK but throughout Europe. It cannot simply rebrand itself in the same way as Ratners or Amstrad did, it needs to rebuild its reputation. This will be a long, difficult process and IMO it hasn’t even been started yet. Witness the Prior’s plight.

    I have no doubt that Spain will eventually recover. That said I see no sign of any green shoots, or indeed an environment that might foster them.

  • #102285
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    They couldn’t care less if the stock markets caught fire and government bonds were given away for free if you spend over a tenner at Tescos. Neither event would even get on to the front page of the Sun.

    They why would they want to spend hundreds of thousands of Euro’s investing in Spain when they could simply rent or go on holiday there for a few hundred?

    Buying property is an investment, not a lifestyle choice, becuase you do not need to buy to live in Spain. ‘Sun readers’, especially, can figure that one out, hence there are virtually no British buying in Spain.

  • #102287
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    Buying property is an investment, not a lifestyle choice, becuase you do not need to buy to live in Spain. ‘Sun readers’, especially, can figure that one out, hence there are virtually no British buying in Spain.

    Usual common sense from Peter. Most Brits have figured out that buying a holiday home is a really poor idea, especially in Spain. However retirement is perhaps another matter.
    I think the reason why that market has also dried up is because most retiree’s realise if they invest in Spain in the current climate they will be well and truly stuck. Not able to sell and move back is a powerful negative.
    Most older people move back to their origins anyway at some point. Not being able to that at a time of their own choosing is a huge deterrent.
    So in truth the Spanish property market will continue to stagnate and decline for many years to come.
    What may create a slow recovery is a return to substantial economic growth in EU states whose populations traditionally come to Spain. How long that will take is anyone’s guess.

  • #102289
    Profile photo of ozmunky
    ozmunky
    Participant

    @brianc_li wrote:

    Rocker, I appreciate your desire to be positive but I’m afraid to my mind your rose tinted glasses are clouding your vision somewhat.

    – The western world is going through its biggest downturn since the 30’s. Yes the main trauma was probably two to three years ago but given the severity of the problems still faced recovery will probably take the best part of a decade. I live in one of those European economies (NL) that has come out of this relatively unscathed. Even here people are still cautious.

    – Be people Sun readers or not. Be they interested in the markets or economics or not. They are still driven by sentiment. By how wealthy they feel. For all the reasons outlined by Logan, Charlie, Adiep and others most people now feel poorer and less secure in their employment than they did some five years ago.

    – The ECB is leaning on European banks to recapitalize. This is going to take many years. Only once they complete this process will they start lending in any normal way. Even then it will be 80-90% LTV. The days of 100% 5x earnings mortgages are well and truly over.

    – Justified or not, Spain has allowed its reputation as a place to buy property to be badly damaged. This applies not just in the UK but throughout Europe. It cannot simply rebrand itself in the same way as Ratners or Amstrad did, it needs to rebuild its reputation. This will be a long, difficult process and IMO it hasn’t even been started yet. Witness the Prior’s plight.

    I have no doubt that Spain will eventually recover. That said I see no sign of any green shoots, or indeed an environment that might foster them.

    An excellent post that succinctly explains the points.

    That said, I would add 2 more I posted previously about Spain — (i) If you are perceived to have money you are made a target by the dodgy behaviour of the authorities and (ii) the rule of law does not apply and is seen internationally not to apply in Spain.

  • #102290
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I take on board the preceding posts, but still maintain that we’re discussing different scenarios, we’re still concentrating on buying as an investment. Here’s a live example of why the working classes still come to Spain.

    He’s a retired bus driver, his wife worked as a supermarket cashier before they came to Spain to spend their retirement here, ten years ago now. Their children are independent adults with children of their own.

    The couple sold up in the UK and bought a semi-detached house in an expat area which cost less than half of the money they realized from the sale of their semi-detached in the UK, leaving them with a tidy sum in the bank. They bought a Spanish car, furnished their house in style, took Spanish lessons and joined in everything their expat community has to offer, from the British Legion, ball room dancing, slimming clubs, bingo, etc etc.

    They’ve joined the excellent Spanish health service, have at least one decent holiday a year, usually in the US, and are in their communal swimming pool every day in the summer. Their children from the UK visit regularly.

    The last time I spoke to them, I happened to ask what they thought their house was worth. They didn’t have a clue, because they’re here to stay.

  • #102293
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ……they came to Spain to spend their retirement here, ten years ago now……

    The couple sold up in the UK and bought a semi-detached house in an expat area which cost less than half of the money they realized from the sale of their semi-detached in the UK, leaving them with a tidy sum in the bank.

    Rocker, such conditions simply don’t exist any more. Ten years ago this was the case. Nowadays, even after the price falls that have been seen, they’d be lucky to release any money from their UK property after buying in Spain. This is but one of the reasons that the steady flow of such migrants that was common then has now come to be a trickle.

  • #102294
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Brian, on a like for like basis has anything changed over the past ten years? I don’t know the figures, but percentage-wise the average house price in the UK and Spain, compared to the average UK pension must be about the same. Wouldn’t the current UK pensioner be even better off if Spanish property prices have fallen more than those from the UK since 2007? I strongly suspect that they have.

    I acknowledge the fall of the pound’s value against the Euro, but my earlier example was based on parity, an unlikely event in any case. The pound stood at 1.20 euros yesterday and the average over the past ten years must lie above that figure.

    Getting back to my specific example, the bus driver; they sold their semi ten years ago for around £150K and bought in Spain for £70K. I believe they still have the equity in their UK bank and are able to live in Spain quite comfortably on their pensions.

    I can only guess at the value of their semi in Spain, but estimate its value around £100K, a few like it have been sold recently for that sum, around 120,000 Euros.

  • #102295
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rocker,

    Yes, if you look at the Tinsa index you can see that prices in Spain, although they have fallen, are still double what they were ten years ago.

    http://www.tinsa.es/down/IMIE/2010/IMIE_12_2010.pdf

    The bottom line here is that, despite the recent falls, Spain is now expensive compared to what it once was thus a much less attractive destination.

  • #102296
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @brianc_li wrote:

    The bottom line here is that, despite the recent falls, Spain is now expensive compared to what it once was thus a much less attractive destination.

    Which is a pointer to the fact that property prices need to fall much further in order to simulate demand. Add to that the grotesque over supply problems in the market, any economist would predict a coming serious collapse of values.

  • #102297
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The tinsa figures seem to roughly agree with the example I quoted, although I don’t have much faith in them. I daresay UK prices have also doubled in the last ten years.

    And as Logan said, a further serious decline in Spanish prices is forecast, increasing a future UK pensioner’s ability to buy something much cheaper after selling his UK house, which is not as likely to fall in price.

    And the pensioner’s spending power will be increased even more, and I believe that the pound Sterling is seriously undervalued and that a correction is long overdue. If Mervyn King hits the interest button, expats in Spain will be even better off.

  • #102300
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    The tinsa figures seem to roughly agree with the example I quoted, although I don’t have much faith in them. I daresay UK prices have also doubled in the last ten years.

    And as Logan said, a further serious decline in Spanish prices is forecast, increasing a future UK pensioner’s ability to buy something much cheaper after selling his UK house, which is not as likely to fall in price.

    And the pensioner’s spending power will be increased even more, and I believe that the pound Sterling is seriously undervalued and that a correction is long overdue. If Mervyn King hits the interest button, expats in Spain will be even better off.

    UK house price have fallen more than Spain and will continue to fall, in real terms, for several years. I’d argue that Sterling was overvalued for many years and its upside is limited due to the 5 trillion pound debt, spending cuts and job losses that are to come. A Lost Decade for the UK is probable.

    Your sunny disposition doesn’t seem to match sentiment in the UK, which is gloom and doom. Prices rocketing (20% inflation on food), increasing taxes and falling house prices don’t make for a population willing to spalash out on falling house prices in Spain.
    Cheap holiday might be nice.

    (BTW, if any Central/Eastern European country is going to be a potential market for Spanish property it could be Poland, five years hence. Ryanair have laid on direct flights to Spain).

  • #102311
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I disagree with your contention that UK house prices have fallen more than Spain’s and I’m sorry to further disagree with you that the pound is overvalued, especially against the Euro.

    I don’t know about doom and gloom in the UK, but if it were true, the retiring pensioners would surely be pleased to get away from it, not just for holidays, but for good.

    I know too little about Poland to comment usefully, but there don’t seem to be many Polish people in my area of Spain.

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