SPANISH GOVT. GUILTY or NOT GUILTY???

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This topic contains 41 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 11 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #51090
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    Anonymous
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    What do others think about the Spanish Government’s lack of concern regarding all the dodgy Estate Agents, Developers and Lawyers, in the Spanish Property market?

    There appears no regulation whatsoever of agents, some of whom hide behind API Nos. which don’t belong to them, and their spurious claims that they hold various awards by motor car manufacturers for being the best agent etc in Spain. What have cars to do with property, anyone can apply for these awards?

    Because Spain’s Govt. has been turning a blind eye to these scammers for years I’ve come to the conclusion that it is all about money. Spain collects huge taxes on property via Stamp Duty, VAT, property taxes etc etc, which if the market goes belly up would impact on their economy no doubt. Not forgetting the Valencia Land Grab scam which they seem to allow as well.

    My conclusion, which is personal, is that the Spanish Government by acting this way, is as GUILTY as alll those ripping off thousands of purchasers whether investors or not. I’d be interested to hear what others think on this.

  • #58244
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    Anonymous
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    Paul, i agree entirely with your comments.

    TIME SOMETHING WAS DONE!!

  • #58251
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    Anonymous
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    Thanks Dorothy, I wish more people agreed also. There seems to be complete apathy to this subject yet this is the only way things will change. In the UK, this is not allowed to happen and Consumer programmes, newspapers, regulators etc get more actively involved.

    You would think that the so called ‘honest’ lawyers, (Jose, where are your comments?), Developers and Estate Agents would want to see change andput pressure on the Gov’t. What this apathy tells me is that ‘dishonesty’ rules, whether Gov’t or Commercial in Spain, people have too much to lose.

  • #58252
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    Anonymous
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    there was an article in last saturdays daily express concerning a large spanish developer.

    quote from the article “spain now has a system of property law as modern as anywhere in europe and, if you stay within its framework, you’ll be safe”

    this maybe so but WHO adheres to these laws? certainly not some of the developers, estate agents or lawyers.

    further quote….”P and his girlfriend D and two of their friends are just a few of the of the huindreds of british buyers who have had their fingers burned in a property market that, the spanish government claims, has cleaned up its act” ❗ 🙄 ❗ 🙄

    if the number of news articles both here and spain are anything to go by
    the spanish government have a long way to go in cleaning up its act.

  • #58255
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    The government could do more to make the legal dispute process quicker and more effective – I would certainly agree with that.

    It might also help to reintroduce some sort of mandatory qualifications for people selling property. However most of the British and Irish selling property would just ignore this – as they did before the market was deregulated in 2000. So it wouldn’t lead to much. Anyway the market is no less deregulated than in the UK.

    To be honest I don’t think it helps to blame the government, or expect them to solve the problems. Government action usually makes things worse anyway. The most effective solution lies in waking up the consumer. Most problems, and nearly 100% of the most common ones, can be avoided if people go about buying in the right way.

    Mark

  • #58256
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    😥

    Sorry mark but this time I don’t totally agree with you on this.

    People are continually getting ‘burned’ because there has not been a crackdown on ALL the questionable sales techniques, lack of information, translation problems (where the English version is not binding in disputes),.

    I’m afraid more must come from the Government to clean up these Companies, to have a proper regulatory body as now introduced in the UK, to vet these suspect API nos., and all these motor manufacturer rosettes,. It really needs exposing big-time as that is the only way people will learn about the problems. I have just found people on http://www.andalucia.com who knew nothing about the links in the Sunday Times , so it needs more and more exposure including TV.

    As Dorothy asks, who adheres to the present laws? It seems very few actually do. The Spanish are NOT enforcing them because the current laws are ‘weak’ and there is TOO much money at stake for the Government.

  • #58309
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    👿

    Would be useful if the Spanish Govt. gave their view on why they allow these dodgy agents to keep ripping off purchasers, their silence shows their apathy and vested interest in their buoyant market!

  • #58310
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    Estate agents in Spain were regulated up until 5 years back. All this meant in practice was each agent employed a young Spanish graduate with the necessary qualification on a cheap part time contract to answer the phones. Most of the people selling to foreigners were still completely unqualified – not that it takes 3 years in university to learn how to sell houses any more than such a course will make a dishonest person honest.

    The Spanish government would seem to be guilty, yes – but it should be bourne in mind that all Spanish have a healthy distrust of estate agents and always have done. They are looked on much as the British look on second hand car salesmen, but worse – just try to get a Spanish vendor to sign anything before they’ve seen the colour of your money! The government can’t really be held to blame, because they don’t and never have known any different.

    Where the goverment can be slated is the 7% transfer tax. This was no great problem 10 years back when the average property price was three times the average wage even in the expensive areas – but at today’s price levels just the transfer tax can amount to a full year’s wage for a normal Spanish buyer.

    I really can’t see regulation helping much. What would help is a sort of advertising standards authority to fine the bejesus out of agencies that quite openly lie and msirepresent, mostly on their web advertising. Also, local government can play a part. In the Alhaurin area you will see signposts on every road courtesy of the local council warning foreigners – in English – not to buy anything without first checking with the town hall.

    Basically it all comes back to the oldest rule in the book – caveat emptor.

  • #58398
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    I speak as an established costa del sol commercial estate agent. Am I a good one or a bad one? Ask my clients, or meet me and make up your own mind. Without being defensive the problem is much more complicated than “Dodgy Agents” although these are a problem. The main problem is the general British attitude of non-integration. I will explain. We have an office that we own, we are registered with the local authority as and estate agent, we employ a spanish as well as english sales person. If I were to be tempted to “take advantage” of a Spanish client ( of which we have many) and they thought that I was behaving dishonestly, they would simply report my actions to the local authorities, or even the police. The sheer hassle and problems that this would cause alone makes us very careful as to how we represent our product, and the way we behave generally. My point is, that if British clients were to bring their brains and common sense with them, and further follow up complaints through the normal channels I think that the problems would start to disapear. There is a very strong system in spain concerning complaints against businesses, and if people were to use this along with a large slice of common sense many issues wouls just not arise. Can you believe that we still hear of people aproaching bar and home owners and actually handing over deposits directly to the owners on a handshake? Frankly they deserve all they get.

  • #58399
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    Fair comment. The inane approach of some British buyers is a large part of the problem. If everyone was more cautious and sceptical, did better research, and took action when missold to, there would indeed be fewer poxy companies in business.

    Mark

  • #58402
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    @mark wrote:

    Fair comment. The inane approach of some British buyers is a large part of the problem. If everyone was more cautious and sceptical, did better research, and took action when missold to, there would indeed be fewer poxy companies in business.

    Mark

    Mark I could not agree more with you. However I am also guilty of a inane approach to purchasing a house. I used a internet estate agent and her recommended lawyer.

    Two weeks after moving in I was horrified to discover that 750meters of my land was missing. The lawyer who I foolishly trusted paid a visit and told me “I am sorry I have made a mistake I shoud have checked things out and my advice now is for you to sell the house”.

    If anybody is considering purchasing in Spain do your homework and be very very carefull . 😥

  • #58453
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    👿

    I’ve just done some independent research into this issue and why there seems to be such apathy by the Government to properly regulate property agents, developers and lawyers in Spain so as to ‘clean up’ all the dodgy practices including the Valencia Land Grab scam, illegal builds, mis-selling by agents with no recourse by client, lawyers working with both agent and developer (and not the client) etc etc

    The result is depressing. Not one lawyer, developer or agent appears to want to get involved there. Is this because they have too much to lose financially, or are some being pressured by others? Even some so-called estate agent API Nos. are not registered to the agent but to lawyers who act for them. It’s a con without doubt.

    A situation like this would not be allowed to continue indefinitely in the UK without some sort of intervention and major expose.

    Money talks too much in Spain for this problem to go away so many more people will inevitably be ripped-off by the unscrupulous parties concerned.

  • #58454
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    The government has been too busy the last 6 months with the absolutely crucial issue of gay marriage to bother with the petty concerns of a few thousand foreigners. 😉

  • #58456
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    🙂

    Now I liked that posting Bert and of course it makes sense, they are obviously prioritising things so ‘blow’ the unfortunate purchasers and their problems.

    Issues like you mention along with the price of olive oil are clearly far more important.

  • #58466
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    Hi there

    I would like to respond to the agent (Guest) on his comments about the attitude difference between Spanish and British Buyer. I am assuming that you have signs posted everywhere in your office proclaiming that if you think you are being ripped off report us to the police and town hall – and here is their telephone number – because I dont know of one agent in this area who tells their clients they have recourse to complain to the town hall – or indeed how they would go about doing it .

    So whilst it is fair comment to blame the attitude of buying Brits – it is also fair to assume they havent got the foggiest idea (not speaking the language) of where to look.

    They come over to Spain – usually ill informed – and they chance it lucky or otherwise when they get to the agents office – how do they know from an internet site that the agent is good or bad. All they see is a house they want and trust the agent because he or she speaks English. Whether this is right or wrong I dont know – it is certainly naive and itwould appear that people do leave theuir wits in their suitcase when making what is probably their biggest investment for a long time.

    But also in their defence they are generally told by the agent that everything is ok, above board, they have dodgy credentials but I ask you – have you ever spoken to the NAEA in the UK tofind out if an estate agent is really assosciated with them.

    So who do you trust – the lawyer – probably working in conjunction with the agents. And this is the problem I think. The blame doesnt lie with the government IMHO. Yes they could do more about it – but perhaps if the industry itself did more to clean up its act. In ouarea there is a guy who runs a website aimed at hihlighting all the agents – mainly though reporting horror stories. It is alleged that once someone is on that site a lot of enquiries drop out of the agents hands. I know of two local agents who have offered himmoney to remove their names.

    So if one man can do it then surely an industry can also do it. All the clean agents should get together andform a respecatable agency network and market this as being an effective tool against dishonest and bad prac tices (in much the same way as the NAEA does inthe UK) Then have a website whiere people can see who is on that list – and maybe even have a black list of known offenders – highlighting average rates of commission for example

    But I suspect the truth of the matter is that many agents become greedy because the money is easy picking off naive Brits and foreigners. And therefore where would be the will

    So instead of blaming the government perhaps we should look a little closer tohome

  • #58470
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    I think the posting by vbtudor was excellent, most of what you say is absolutely correct. Unwary purchasers tend to trust their agent and the chosen lawyer because they don’t know who else to go to.

    I would like to see the website which lists the ‘dodgy’ agents you mention, could you post the address here please.

    Personally, I still think the Spanish Gov’t could do more to clean up the rogues in Spain, maybe they could chuck them out when continually mis-selling, as well as their chosen lawyers if they are negligent.

  • #58483
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    Hi Paul

    I would agree with you on this but the problem is most of the buyers dont know they have been fleeced because (in this area at least) when the agent takes the deposit he takes his commission out of this and passes the rest to the seller. They will also draw up a separate contract between agent and buyer and agent and seller.

    When it comes to the notary if the agent hasnt had his full commission by the time they get there then the seller pays this from the money passed under the table. I believe this one thing – if stamped out – would eradicate a lot of mal practice – but how can you expect the govt to stamp out this when their own notaries are turning a blind eye to black money?

    And especially as the Spanish to perpetuate this – in some instances will not sell the house unless it is under declared.

    This is where the government should be concentrating – perhaps if they reduced the taxes on property purchase they would see a huge increase in the amount of taxes they were paid because people wouldnt be so inclined to under declare, and if they reduced the tax burden when selling fr capital gains they may see this practice eradicated also, but this is a cultural thing and will be difficult to stamp out overnight.

    When I bought my place I was shocked to see the BANK handing over a brown envelope to the sellers in front of the notary.

    But also I only found out 12 months afterwards when talking to my neighbour – who was the cousin of the seller – that she received €45,000 as opposed to the €60,000 I paid – even thoguh the agent assured me she took 1.5% and the actual selling agent took 1.5%. So if this is the case where did the rest go to.

    And I had little or no recourse because when I approached the agent about it they just said – thats life here in Spain. my contract was with the agent to sell me the property at €60,000 and they had a contract with the seller to sell at €45,000. The only thing that could have happened was that the owner could have enforced the cotnract at €45,000 – but she wouldnt have gained anything by it so why would she?

    Anyway I still think that naming and shaming bad agents is the best recourse and a site like this which has a lot of people coming to it and Mark is well known (even I have seen him on TV) would be the best place for people to come and check it out.

    Regards

    Vince

    PS with regards to the other site – I will speak to David the owner and make sure he is happy about me publicising it on here – shouldnt be a problem but I prefer to ask than just do it.

  • #58484
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    Anonymous
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    The address to Davids site which highlights sharp practices is

    http://www.costablanca-buyers-agent.com

    Regards

    Vince

  • #58488
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    😀

    Thanks Vince for your reply and info on the other site, it’s certainly good that we are all sharing our experiences with Spanish property and agents etc, especially making people aware of all the sharp practices there.

    Believe it or not


    Estates P Banus have called me today seeing if I am interested in ‘buying’ there as the market is hot. What are they like?

  • #58489
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    There are a lot of references to “in the UK” on this thread. Well this isn’t the UK, it’s Spain, a different country with different ways and attitudes and it is unfortunate that people find out the hard way, but, until we Brits loose this arrogant attitude that seems to hang on from the days of the Empire which suggests that, if it’s not done the British way, it’s wrong, we will carry on getting ripped off!

  • #58490
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    Hi Bri

    unfortunately it isnt just Brits get ripped off – the Germans and Dutch, Belgians and to a lesser degree the French, also get ripped off by their own Countrymen.

    You are right in that this isnt Britain and it is a different way of life but I disagree with you that people come here expecting it all to be done the British way – they genuinely dont know what goes on because they have never bought here before and probably assume it is like it is in UK. That doesnt make them arrogant or bad people, just naive

    therefore for language and culture reasons they tend to gravitate towards English Speaking agents – and I dont think it is unreasobnable to expect that people will treat you fairly. Perhaps maybe I am being Naive but I would expect the same whether I was in Britain, Spain or any other Coutnry – bearing in mind also that many people who come here dont initially speak Spanish.

    Whether this is a good or bad thing I guess is subjective but this is no reason for people to be ripped off IMHO.

  • #58492
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    Hi vince

    Yes I know some of my comments may seem a bit harsh but I stand by the context of my post, insomuch as, it may hopefully encourage people to think a bit more about their attitude towards the Spanish and their way of life, and although naivety is the main cause of most peoples problems, to blame the government is, to my mind, arrogant!

    Where should we draw the line when it comes to enforcing legislation though? If the government does clamp down on dodgy estate agents, can we also expect them to clamp down on all the people working illegally and not contributing into the system and also the many British registered cars being driven around Spain illegally and I also understand people can be fined for unnecessarily using excessive amounts of metered water, like filling their swimming pools, for instance.

    This is just my own opinion, which isn’t intended to annoy anyone but hopefully to provoke thought 😉

  • #58493
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    H Bri

    I agree with you completely that the government shouldnt be held to blame for the situation, – I ebleive myself that the industry itself should regulate it and weed it out – perhaps my own ideas of naming and shaming the bad ones are also harsh but it seems ot be working here with David’s website. He has no personal vendetta against any of the agents just has been fed up with people being ripped off by unscrupulous agents.

    Now the ones that he has named and shamed have either asked to be taken off, offered money to be taken off or even made threats against him if he doesnt take them off. I know him personally and he is a nice bloke who has just had enough. He doesnt go out of his wat to hurt someones business but as he says if agents are charging high comissions then surely the public have a right to know how much they are being charged.

    If someone comes along and is told that they will be charged 10% and they still go ahead and buy the house then they have no complaint afterwards that they were charged so much. Whereas if they were told 3% but in fact charged 10% that is dishonest (and does happen too)

    So yes I believe the industry needs to sort its own affiars out or I am sure the government will

    I also agree with you regarding working here illegally and not paying in the system – the ewxact same complaint most people have about asylum seekers who go missing in the UK. It seems it is ok so long as it is me thats doing it but I become whiter than white if someone else does it.

    But the people I have met coming over here generally do register in time, and I have a friend who helps people to change their plates to Spanish ones – a relatively straightforward process in fact if not long winded. But it is down to the individual and their conscience.

    Anywayhopefully this topic will provoke thought from other quarters and those that are looking for information before buying will at least have a fuller view of what information they need to get before making a buying decision, and one would hope will avoid being ripped off

    Regards and best wishes

    Vince

  • #58495
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    Bri, although I agree with you about many of your comments I am still entitled to my opinion about the lack of action by the Spanish Gov’t over this issue. They have continually ignored the correct regulation of Estate Agents there (many British) who are ripping people off all the time to naive and unwary purchasers despite the many exposes on TV and the newspapers. They also do precious little regarding the Valencia Land Grab scam.

    Yes there are many other issues you mention as in all countries but this website is primarily about Spanish Property issues not illegal workers etc.

    The Spanish Gov’t are earning fortunes with property sales through various taxes and they certainly don’t want this to stop through bad Press etc and so continually ‘turn a blind eye’ to property scams there.

    Some of us are fairly dedicated to keep warning ‘new’ purchasers based on our experiences and in some cases it is working, we will continue to do so until Spain cleans up it’s act. My opinion only.

    Paul

  • #58498
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    And I totally agree with your opinion Paul!

  • #58499
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    Hi Paul

    Don’t get me wrong, I totally agree that the government should do something about dodgy estate agents etc, but the bottom line is, they don’t or won’t.
    I applaud wholeheartedly anyone that tries to do something about it, and individuals that try to warn prospective purchasers that “the system” over here is different to the one in UK, but if when told, they don’t listen, then it’s no good looking to blame someone else.

    About three years ago I tried to warn a young couple, I became acquainted with, from using a particular estate agent and his team, only to be told “don’t worry we can deal with people like that”. I heard today their house has a demolition order on it! 😥

  • #58501
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    🙂

    Thanks for your replies Bri and Claire.

    The whole issue regarding property in Spain needs tackling in my view by as many bodies as possible including the Gov’t there and I do feel that this website in particular, as well as others who name and shame, as Vince mentioned, are gradually having an effect but more still needs to be done.

    I think if just one person, or more preferably, manages to get their deposit back or decides against investing through the likes of Awful Estates P. Banus then this site is working. The more people are warned of the likely scams (and potential pitfalls) used by agents, developers and lawyers the better.

    Please learn from our mistakes and naivety!

    I spoke to an English lawyer yesterday who does conveyancing for Spanish property, and he told me that he feels the market there is over-saturated now with 2 bed apts and town-houses that can neither be re-sold nor rented out.

    Do not trust the agents’ recommended lawyers and don’t trust their so-called awards from motor manufacturers like Bentley and Jaguar, you can ‘buy’ these. Also, many of the staff employed by agents like the one above, are ex timeshare people.

    Parts of the Costas have become eyesores due to mass development, cranes etc everywhere, it’s tragic that this has been allowed legally or illegally to happen. Maybe they will ruin the interior next too!

  • #58502
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    @paul wrote:

    Believe it or not


    Estates P Banus have called me today seeing if I am interested in ‘buying’ there as the market is hot. What are they like?

    Yeah, every time we’re inundated with new clients the first thing we do is ring through our back catalogue to tell everyone. 😆

  • #58508
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    Sorry Bert, that answer has gone over my head, I must be missing your point???

  • #58510
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    I meant that if the market was actually “hot”, they wouldn’t be reduced to ringing through their old client databases in an attempt to drum up business.

    I must give making sense a try one of these days. 🙁

  • #58511
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    @paul wrote:

    I spoke to an English lawyer yesterday who does conveyancing for Spanish property, and he told me that he feels the market there is over-saturated now with 2 bed apts and town-houses that can neither be re-sold nor rented out.

    He knows his onions, that man. I’ve got clients willing to take a 20% drop on what they paid to get out of it, but nobody’s interested. To be honest, they’ll have to take a hit of over 30% to get out with the market as it is.

    Not entirely doom and gloom – there is still demand for places in towns and close to amenities, but if you’re near nothing but golf courses and other holiday apartments it does not look good.

    It’s a shame as there are still good areas for investment in Spain, but the experiences of owners in these “built for foreigners” complexes is putting people right off.

  • #58514
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    😉

    Thanks for explaining Bert. I agree with your comments but for a moment I’d thought you were an agent but my mistake.

    I have had 4 different agents in the C del Sol call me and email me asking if I am interested in buying down there again as the market is ‘buoyant’, what’s more one of them is ‘Awful Estates’ who don’t let up even though they mis-sold to me a few years back. They must be desperate to phone me, one of their Nemesissssss, mind you I have used various names at times to flush out their tactics.

    Have you heard how this Company is getting on right now as I was told their sales-force has dropped from over 200 to nearer 20?

  • #58518
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    I am an agent – it’s just that I don’t like most other agents here.

    The market here is not bouyant. It’s sunk – I’ve never seen it so quiet. I suppose this will force the prices down for a few years, and hope that that will bring the buyers back to us one day.

    I don’t know anything specific about your Awful Estates (I know who you mean), but most of the big marketing hard selling agencies are either downsizing, or “rebranding” – which seems to mean folding the company to weasel out of all your contracts and continuing to work with the same people from the same office under a different name.

    It might perk you up a bit to know that many of their sales teams are indeed now unemployed and destitute, or have been sent to Bulgaria. I know it puts a smile on my face every morning. *thumbs up*

  • #58520
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    The latter part of your post cheered me up immensely, Bert. 😀
    We are awaiting to hear from our new lawyer in the next day or so, to see if the lawyers( in their smart offices in Marbella) that ***** Estates introduced us to, have forwarded our money (approx £6,000) that we paid to them, in advance, for fees, stamp duty,etc. When it was requested, our new Lawyer was told that we would have to wait until 21st July, as they had a problem in their accounting dept !!!! 😮 Watch this space ❗

  • #58521
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    😛

    Bert, your post about Awful Estates has cheered me up somewhat, I think they are concentrating more on France, S. Africa and Thailand and I feel sorry for the people who buy there through them.

    I can almost see you smiling about their near redundant sales team who I concluded were mainly ex timeshare who don’t give a monkeys about mis-selling.

    Guest, I would be interested to know if the lawyer recommended to you in those smart glassy offices was maybe Direct Lawyers Marbella (who have changed their name 3 times in 3 years) and were mine too as recommended by that Agent, and pretty abysmal. They also seemed more interested in Awful Estates and the Developers than their client. The other lawyer in that building Fernando Franco also does a lot of the in-house work for that Agent, and suprise suprise holds the API Number of that agent, it’s not even registered to the Agent.

  • #58522
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    Anonymous
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    😛

    I meant to sign Paul not Guest for above posting.

  • #58524
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    As a Newbie I have been watching this topic. I have been trawling the net for months now for all info and hints as to buying a property. Obviously with all your comments, I could do with a 1-10 on how to check when they are genuine. Do I take it that if you can complain to the Town Hall if you are being fleeced, that they would know who the dodgy agents and solicitors are in the first place? Help!

  • #58525
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    Hi There Andia

    If you drop me a line at vbtudor@bydesigncb.com I will forward you a guide on how to avoid paying too much for your property as well as the buying process. It covers such things as estate agents fees, bank charges solicitors charges and the complete buying process. I produced it when I acted as a buyers agent so that new people to Spain would have an idea of what to expect and so werent caught out (or if they were then it is down to there lack of wanting to know rather than not knowing)

    Regards

    Vince

  • #58528
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    Anonymous
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    Perhaps the UK should also clean up it’s act and regulate the developers who sell at the International Homes exhibitions that are held around and A great many people get caught out through buying through them . Developers without initial planning permission that sometimes never materialises.
    I am not an agent. Bought successfully and legally in Spain preferring to go with my instinct rather than the hard sell and promises of a quick return

  • #58531
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    Guest, you are quite right about the UK but it does appear to be more regulated than in Spain with various bodies to complain to easily. I know where we live, agents would soon be investigated if they did/said half of what some of the agents say in Spain.

    Because so much property is sold in Spain, bad stories seem to be reported more frequently than in other Euro countries like France, Italy etc, and there has been a free for all in Spain for years which was bound to slow sometime.

  • #58543
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    @anonymous wrote:

    😛

    Bert, your post about Awful Estates has cheered me up somewhat, I think they are concentrating more on France, S. Africa and Thailand and I feel sorry for the people who buy there through them.

    I can almost see you smiling about their near redundant sales team who I concluded were mainly ex timeshare who don’t give a monkeys about mis-selling.

    Guest, I would be interested to know if the lawyer recommended to you in those smart glassy offices was maybe Direct Lawyers Marbella (who have changed their name 3 times in 3 years) and were mine too as recommended by that Agent, and pretty abysmal. They also seemed more interested in Awful Estates and the Developers than their client. The other lawyer in that building Fernando Franco also does a lot of the in-house work for that Agent, and suprise suprise holds the API Number of that agent, it’s not even registered to the Agent.

    I am sorry, I did not log in,in my name! I have not been on the forum for a week or so. Yes I was refering to Direct Lawyers Marbella. I am going to make a new post to let you know the latest saga !! 👿

  • #58555
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    Anonymous
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    Claire

    I’ve just replied to your posting re the latest with DLM,

    Paul

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