Spain to ‘deep clean’ it’s financial sector.

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This topic contains 40 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 4 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #56917
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Rajoy is announcing more austerity cut backs today including a IVA rise of 3% to 21%. They have plans for a bad bank and the rumor is it will be Banco Valencia. Rajoy has also announced the government are to ‘deep clean’ the financial sector. Whatever that means. Lets hope he also includes the housing market, judicial system, government and local politics. πŸ™‚

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9390233/Debt-crisis-live.html

    8,000 Spanish miners descending on Madrid today intent on aggravation, sorry protest. πŸ˜‰

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/jul/11/spanish-coal-miners-video

    Spain urged to inflict heavy losses on savers according to today’s FT.
    The EU is urging Spain to force retail savers with certain bank deposits to contribute to the bailing out of the banks. 😯

  • #110371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    There is a draft memorandum of understanding doing the rounds, with one contentious clause obliging the Government to wipe out small investors who bought ‘preference shares’ in cajas.

    Here is the proposed timeline for bank restructuring:

    If you are interested, you can read the whole draft MOU (pdf) here.

  • #110374
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I can recall my CAM bank manager in Spain spending a hour early last year trying to convince me of the advantages of investing in the banks preference shares. Fortunately I had done my homework and knew of the true financial state the bank was in.

    To force this loss on small bank investors is simply wrong. Another mis-selling scam.
    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2012/07/11/1079441/the-pain-in-spain/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Nice charts Mark. πŸ™‚

    Like this explanation on page one of the pdf. Just about sums it all up really, catastrophic disaster in a paragraph.

    The global financial and economic crisis exposed weaknesses in the growth pattern of the Spanish economy. Spain recorded a long period of strong growth, which was, in part, based on a credit-driven domestic demand boom. Very low real interest rates triggered the accumulation of high domestic and external imbalances as well as a real estate bubble. The sharp correction of that boom in the context of the international financial crisis led to a recession and job destruction.

  • #110376
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Banks have been slow to unload their immense real estate holdings. Does this bailout mean that they can continue to do so or are their provisions that dictate that they have to start selling?

  • #110379
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The ‘bad bank’ plan, not yet confirmed involves all banks being forced to dump their entire non performing real estate holdings into this bank. The government will then pay these banks a minute percentage of their worth as compensation. My best guess is it will be conditional for receiving state aid from ESF.
    It’s all currently speculation because nothing has been announced but it is being considered..

  • #110385
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As you say Logan, all speculation. If however all these non-performing assets do go into a bad bank in the same way as Ireland did with NAMA, they will quickly find their true market value and quickly be disposed of at that. In Irelands case that meant a 50%+ fall in prices in less than two years.

    With Spain, who knows? Some would argue that falls will be greater than that, particularly on the Costas, due to the size of the bubble, euro uncertainty, poor build quality, etc. Others would say less, given that Spain is more attractive to overseas investors, better climate, lifestyle, etc. Both arguments have their merits.

    At present the only thing we can say with a reasonable amount of certainty is that prices still have some way to fall.

  • #110411
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Here is the human cost of yet another Spanish financial scam. Selling preference shares through branch networks and convincing innocents their investment was solid and protected. It’s disgusting.

    What’s the EU doing about it? Nothing they are encouraging it. 😯 The government admit it should not have happened but that’s all they will do. This is a terrible loss to pensioners who have done the right thing in their lives, saved for their retirement and are now kicked in the teeth.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-11/spanish-bank-bailout-means-forcing-losses-on-cooks-pensioners.html

  • #110439
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The Cam scam has been around on some forums for months. Many British have been caught up in it, they thought they were just buying a normal investment bond.

    http://www.costa-news.com/content/view/9445/151/

  • #110738
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The Cam scam has been around on some forums for months. Many British have been caught up in it, they thought they were just buying a normal investment bond.

    http://www.costa-news.com/content/view/9445/151/

  • #110444
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Can we dump our mortgage into the bad bank?

    I told our tale on here a while ago when I was asking about what to do if the bank had made a mistake and owed us money. Well, the bank paid us back by adding up to 12k into our account, whilst telling me in the local bank that ‘it was a technical error and they don’t know what is going on’? Then online we saw that they started to take out the correct mortgage amount from the date that their error was made. All great….until. I should have guessed from the smirk on the bank managers face when they cleared the 2,500 euro credit card we had entirely and left us therefore with the system running short of money for the mortgage. We had previously owed 3 months mortgage and thanks to me pointed out their error for them to pay us back they have left us now owing nearly six months. This the bank manager points out is ‘excessive debt’ and says our only option is for us to remortgage. What a surprise….

    Get her great offer….. pay 200 euros per month for 3 years but change our 2.5% interest rate to be minimum 5% and maximum 17%. In 3 years time we’ll pay 700 euros per month as in her words then the economy will be fine again (!). So, to clear nearly 3,000 euros she wants us to pay nearly 14,000 euros if you actually work out her offer and the costs involved. We’ve said no so they’re trying to embargo my father in law for 24,000 euros as he is the guarantor on the mortgage. He’s unemployed, two years away from retirement age, in bad health and has his own mortgage plus he’s guarantor from before ours for his other son. How can he possibly guarantee the mortgage, which was done for the ex bank manager to cream off 15k in a loan in his name anyway…?

    I H A T E Spanish banks!!!! So many people have walked away from their mortgages by handing the keys back, there are others who have worse than a prison sentence mortgage. If we could hand the keys back i’d do it today, loose all that we’ve paid in just not to have to pay a cent more and especially not for 26 more years. At least we are in Ireland now, in the cold and rain but already the stress of Spain seems more manageable.

  • #110744
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Can we dump our mortgage into the bad bank?

    I told our tale on here a while ago when I was asking about what to do if the bank had made a mistake and owed us money. Well, the bank paid us back by adding up to 12k into our account, whilst telling me in the local bank that ‘it was a technical error and they don’t know what is going on’? Then online we saw that they started to take out the correct mortgage amount from the date that their error was made. All great….until. I should have guessed from the smirk on the bank managers face when they cleared the 2,500 euro credit card we had entirely and left us therefore with the system running short of money for the mortgage. We had previously owed 3 months mortgage and thanks to me pointed out their error for them to pay us back they have left us now owing nearly six months. This the bank manager points out is ‘excessive debt’ and says our only option is for us to remortgage. What a surprise….

    Get her great offer….. pay 200 euros per month for 3 years but change our 2.5% interest rate to be minimum 5% and maximum 17%. In 3 years time we’ll pay 700 euros per month as in her words then the economy will be fine again (!). So, to clear nearly 3,000 euros she wants us to pay nearly 14,000 euros if you actually work out her offer and the costs involved. We’ve said no so they’re trying to embargo my father in law for 24,000 euros as he is the guarantor on the mortgage. He’s unemployed, two years away from retirement age, in bad health and has his own mortgage plus he’s guarantor from before ours for his other son. How can he possibly guarantee the mortgage, which was done for the ex bank manager to cream off 15k in a loan in his name anyway…?

    I H A T E Spanish banks!!!! So many people have walked away from their mortgages by handing the keys back, there are others who have worse than a prison sentence mortgage. If we could hand the keys back i’d do it today, loose all that we’ve paid in just not to have to pay a cent more and especially not for 26 more years. At least we are in Ireland now, in the cold and rain but already the stress of Spain seems more manageable.

  • #110450
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    itsme, don’t pay them a cent more now you’re in Ireland. If you’ve been shafted by this stupid bank then let them do the chasing, they will give up. If it’s not your fault then the principle must kick in. Get one of those lovely Romany caravans πŸ˜‰

    First, don’t buy anything until you are clear, rent, no asset to chase. Diplomatically ask/tell your father in law to transfer the property into a spouse, child’s, relative (you trust) name (your wife), he can still remain a signatory while he lives in case of a sale for his security, Spanish bank won’t know that, better still, if he can sell property then do so, give some Mickey Mouse address for correspondence, keep bank account info in other names that aren’t on your deeds, look up any address in Thailand and give that to them for example, anything to make it hard work, delaying tactics, don’t worry though, (if you’ve got nothing so to speak πŸ˜‰ and they discover that) there’s not a lot they can do.

    Too many people could be potentially chased for Spanish property debts and worry too much, provided you rent and have nada, the banks will probably go bust before you πŸ˜‰

  • #110750
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    itsme, don’t pay them a cent more now you’re in Ireland. If you’ve been shafted by this stupid bank then let them do the chasing, they will give up. If it’s not your fault then the principle must kick in. Get one of those lovely Romany caravans πŸ˜‰

    First, don’t buy anything until you are clear, rent, no asset to chase. Diplomatically ask/tell your father in law to transfer the property into a spouse, child’s, relative (you trust) name (your wife), he can still remain a signatory while he lives in case of a sale for his security, Spanish bank won’t know that, better still, if he can sell property then do so, give some Mickey Mouse address for correspondence, keep bank account info in other names that aren’t on your deeds, look up any address in Thailand and give that to them for example, anything to make it hard work, delaying tactics, don’t worry though, (if you’ve got nothing so to speak πŸ˜‰ and they discover that) there’s not a lot they can do.

    Too many people could be potentially chased for Spanish property debts and worry too much, provided you rent and have nada, the banks will probably go bust before you πŸ˜‰

  • #110451
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I have yet to see a case where anyone in the UK has been chased by a spanish bank. heard of threats and scaremongoring that’s all. Anyway the abusive terms on spanish bank mortgages would not stick in the UK they would be thrown out of court.

  • #110751
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I have yet to see a case where anyone in the UK has been chased by a spanish bank. heard of threats and scaremongoring that’s all. Anyway the abusive terms on spanish bank mortgages would not stick in the UK they would be thrown out of court.

  • #110452
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I am not so sure about that advice Katy and Angie. Some of Angie’s suggestions could amount to fraud.

    It’s entirely possible for a Spanish bank to recover debt in the UK or any other EU state by using a European Charging Order. EU treaties were set up to allow other EU institutions to recover unpaid business debts in single market transactions.

    It is currently being used to great effect by communities in Spain chasing unpaid community fees. UK debt collectors and bailiffs are operating on a percentage basis of the amount they recover. I personally think this is an abuse of the original aim of the treaty but it has yet to be challenged in a UK court.

    Most people faced with the threats of a bailiff visit pay up and the action stops.

    Basically the debt is presented to a county court judge under the EU treaty legislation. If the debt is deemed lawful by the court (it always is) then a court possession order is made empowering a court bailiff to size any assets.

    In practice that usually means a UK property in the case of a large debt and the debt then become a preferential secondary charge on the persons UK or Irish home.

    I am not sure if Spanish lawyers have quite caught on yet to this procedure but it is working well for a large number of expat Spanishcommunities. Many private operators in UK are doing very nicely out of it and I hear they are currently recruiting agents in Spain to manage their interests.

  • #110752
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I am not so sure about that advice Katy and Angie. Some of Angie’s suggestions could amount to fraud.

    It’s entirely possible for a Spanish bank to recover debt in the UK or any other EU state by using a European Charging Order. EU treaties were set up to allow other EU institutions to recover unpaid business debts in single market transactions.

    It is currently being used to great effect by communities in Spain chasing unpaid community fees. UK debt collectors and bailiffs are operating on a percentage basis of the amount they recover. I personally think this is an abuse of the original aim of the treaty but it has yet to be challenged in a UK court.

    Most people faced with the threats of a bailiff visit pay up and the action stops.

    Basically the debt is presented to a county court judge under the EU treaty legislation. If the debt is deemed lawful by the court (it always is) then a court possession order is made empowering a court bailiff to size any assets.

    In practice that usually means a UK property in the case of a large debt and the debt then become a preferential secondary charge on the persons UK or Irish home.

    I am not sure if Spanish lawyers have quite caught on yet to this procedure but it is working well for a large number of expat Spanishcommunities. Many private operators in UK are doing very nicely out of it and I hear they are currently recruiting agents in Spain to manage their interests.

  • #110454
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If my father in law was open to talk about it all then it might happen. My mother in law sadly died last year so he is in mourning. He won’t speak about anything and throws the bank letters in the bin. He is very old school Spanish and just wouldn’t understand getting his property into someone elses name etc. What happens if he was to pass away himself? If his flat is inherited by my 20 year old sister in law would she be liable for our mortgage?? Maybe we should ask a decent solicitor, but where is one of those?

    The banks are bullies and are hounding us and will continue to do so. Or, as you say, they’ll go bust. Then another bigger bank will take up the baton and hound us again. We have to pay, but we want to pay a fair amount rather than these constant oppressive fees and costs on top of the debt we have!

  • #110754
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If my father in law was open to talk about it all then it might happen. My mother in law sadly died last year so he is in mourning. He won’t speak about anything and throws the bank letters in the bin. He is very old school Spanish and just wouldn’t understand getting his property into someone elses name etc. What happens if he was to pass away himself? If his flat is inherited by my 20 year old sister in law would she be liable for our mortgage?? Maybe we should ask a decent solicitor, but where is one of those?

    The banks are bullies and are hounding us and will continue to do so. Or, as you say, they’ll go bust. Then another bigger bank will take up the baton and hound us again. We have to pay, but we want to pay a fair amount rather than these constant oppressive fees and costs on top of the debt we have!

  • #110457
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I’m afraid in a situation that itsme has described I wouldn’t hesitate to act in the way I’ve mentioned whether it could be seen to be fraudulent or not, that’s the way I am. It’s no worse than the fraud already perpetrated by Banks. IMO the Bank have acted fraudulently if I’m understanding this correctly, and the way the Spanish Banks, as well as those in the UK and World have acted, ie fraudulently mis-selling financial products, mortgages, fixing Libor and SWAP rates, their Directors’s frauds, Rato’s negligence/fraud of Bankia, then they deserve all they get.

    As for debt collectors, they can do very little if you own nothing, ie you rent including furniture, car in another name, they cannot take your goods anyway until they get a Court Order, so the big guys they send round pretending to be bailiffs are in fact not bailiffs and you can threaten to call the Police for harassment to remove them and to stop the Debt Collectors. They take on debts very often buy the debt at 10p in the pound, often much less, the costs involved generally dissuade them once they establish you own nada.

    I would not pay under any circumstance, have always seen off bully boys, you can learn their tactics by phoning them pretending you are a client with a similar problem as yours, then use it against them, it’s hilarious how bullies back down, have even photographed big wheel clampers who are cowards and hide their ugly faces, and gone round to their offices with a few big fellas myself: πŸ˜†

    Itsme, believe me, do half of what I mention, and they will go away, as a last resort, tell them it’s 10 or 20k, or nothing without a fight. As katy says, I’ve not heard of anyone being successfully chased and prosecuted in the UK for a Spanish/Cypriot debt. Once they’ve paid so much in chasing, they go away, they don’t keep spending, FACT : πŸ˜‰

    Happy to pass on such advice to anyone genuine being hounded as a result of mis-selling or fraudulent claim/negligence by bully boys, 100% success so far πŸ˜‰

  • #110757
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I’m afraid in a situation that itsme has described I wouldn’t hesitate to act in the way I’ve mentioned whether it could be seen to be fraudulent or not, that’s the way I am. It’s no worse than the fraud already perpetrated by Banks. IMO the Bank have acted fraudulently if I’m understanding this correctly, and the way the Spanish Banks, as well as those in the UK and World have acted, ie fraudulently mis-selling financial products, mortgages, fixing Libor and SWAP rates, their Directors’s frauds, Rato’s negligence/fraud of Bankia, then they deserve all they get.

    As for debt collectors, they can do very little if you own nothing, ie you rent including furniture, car in another name, they cannot take your goods anyway until they get a Court Order, so the big guys they send round pretending to be bailiffs are in fact not bailiffs and you can threaten to call the Police for harassment to remove them and to stop the Debt Collectors. They take on debts very often buy the debt at 10p in the pound, often much less, the costs involved generally dissuade them once they establish you own nada.

    I would not pay under any circumstance, have always seen off bully boys, you can learn their tactics by phoning them pretending you are a client with a similar problem as yours, then use it against them, it’s hilarious how bullies back down, have even photographed big wheel clampers who are cowards and hide their ugly faces, and gone round to their offices with a few big fellas myself: πŸ˜†

    Itsme, believe me, do half of what I mention, and they will go away, as a last resort, tell them it’s 10 or 20k, or nothing without a fight. As katy says, I’ve not heard of anyone being successfully chased and prosecuted in the UK for a Spanish/Cypriot debt. Once they’ve paid so much in chasing, they go away, they don’t keep spending, FACT : πŸ˜‰

    Happy to pass on such advice to anyone genuine being hounded as a result of mis-selling or fraudulent claim/negligence by bully boys, 100% success so far πŸ˜‰

  • #110461
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Believe me if the robbing spanish banks could do it they would have done…call their bluff. Doesn’t work the other way either, you cannot have a charge put on a property in Spain for a UK debt.

  • #110761
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Believe me if the robbing spanish banks could do it they would have done…call their bluff. Doesn’t work the other way either, you cannot have a charge put on a property in Spain for a UK debt.

  • #110463
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Some further comfort here itsme, has anyone heard of this before?:

    http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-12754.aspx

    Read the reply from gill556 she seems to have gleaned this from The Olive Press, if true you have no worries and can say ‘Cojones’ to the Bank : πŸ˜† I’d say it anyway : πŸ˜†

  • #110763
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Some further comfort here itsme, has anyone heard of this before?:

    http://www.eyeonspain.com/forums/posts-long-12754.aspx

    Read the reply from gill556 she seems to have gleaned this from The Olive Press, if true you have no worries and can say ‘Cojones’ to the Bank : πŸ˜† I’d say it anyway : πŸ˜†

  • #110467
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    If there is just one case won through the UK courts, be sure we would read it in the Daily Mail πŸ˜†

  • #110767
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    If there is just one case won through the UK courts, be sure we would read it in the Daily Mail πŸ˜†

  • #110476
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie : Angie you are now bottem of the pops. I thought being a member of the Kent cricket County you would have a different slant.

    I have been brought up with two wrongs dont make a right and right is might. I have however dumped them a long time ago.

    About two years ago my Bank Manager wanted to sell me some investments products. He insisted that I should see him and went through a computer model of working out the risk attached.

    The answers that I gave him were border line so that the model could not recommend a clear product. I told him I will not invest and the reason very simple i.e. I do not trust the bank, or the Bank of Spain or any of the regulatory bodies. Investments are done in good faith,confidence and the ethos. Spain did not offer me this. You should have seen his face. Boy !!! did I love it as I do not believe anyone has spoken to him in such upfront & blunt manner.

  • #110776
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie : Angie you are now bottem of the pops. I thought being a member of the Kent cricket County you would have a different slant.

    I have been brought up with two wrongs dont make a right and right is might. I have however dumped them a long time ago.

    About two years ago my Bank Manager wanted to sell me some investments products. He insisted that I should see him and went through a computer model of working out the risk attached.

    The answers that I gave him were border line so that the model could not recommend a clear product. I told him I will not invest and the reason very simple i.e. I do not trust the bank, or the Bank of Spain or any of the regulatory bodies. Investments are done in good faith,confidence and the ethos. Spain did not offer me this. You should have seen his face. Boy !!! did I love it as I do not believe anyone has spoken to him in such upfront & blunt manner.

  • #110478
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    shakeel, I’m sorry I’ve let you down badly, and as a cricket fan, would it help if I told you that I am prepared also to carry a bat (with a little help from some potent friends) to the fraudulent Banks and their debt collectors? : πŸ˜† : I would also be happy to help the elderly, infirm, and ripped-off, all in the name of justice and cricket, does this help : πŸ™„ : I feel you saying I’m now ‘bottom of the pops’ is like being downgraded by the credit ratings agency πŸ˜₯

    I prefer ‘an eye for an eye’ from the Bible and won’t let anyone scam me without retribution.

    Now in the case of itsme, I believe the bank may have been fraudulent and in this case the 2nd ‘wrong’ becomes a ‘right’ in this instance : πŸ˜†

  • #110778
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    shakeel, I’m sorry I’ve let you down badly, and as a cricket fan, would it help if I told you that I am prepared also to carry a bat (with a little help from some potent friends) to the fraudulent Banks and their debt collectors? : πŸ˜† : I would also be happy to help the elderly, infirm, and ripped-off, all in the name of justice and cricket, does this help : πŸ™„ : I feel you saying I’m now ‘bottom of the pops’ is like being downgraded by the credit ratings agency πŸ˜₯

    I prefer ‘an eye for an eye’ from the Bible and won’t let anyone scam me without retribution.

    Now in the case of itsme, I believe the bank may have been fraudulent and in this case the 2nd ‘wrong’ becomes a ‘right’ in this instance : πŸ˜†

  • #110486
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, you have been downgraded big time. However your down grading is a valid one & not cooked up. To protect the cricketing faternity I sugguest you replace with a baseball as it is the imported shameless capitalism from USA has brought to this stage. In order to fight this we need a baseball bat i.e. the right tools for the job.

    Cricket has always been a gentleman’s game with a sense of fair play. Coming onto eye for an eye. I agree with you. However relegion in the Biblical period was a way to conduct/working of a society. This has now been replaced by laws. If the law is practised in its spirit than one does not have to carry a cricket or a baseball bat ad we would all be sending flowers to one another & lots of them.

  • #110786
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, you have been downgraded big time. However your down grading is a valid one & not cooked up. To protect the cricketing faternity I sugguest you replace with a baseball as it is the imported shameless capitalism from USA has brought to this stage. In order to fight this we need a baseball bat i.e. the right tools for the job.

    Cricket has always been a gentleman’s game with a sense of fair play. Coming onto eye for an eye. I agree with you. However relegion in the Biblical period was a way to conduct/working of a society. This has now been replaced by laws. If the law is practised in its spirit than one does not have to carry a cricket or a baseball bat ad we would all be sending flowers to one another & lots of them.

  • #110487
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I have to confess shakeel that we do in fact keep a baseball bat, a genuine early wooden one, in the house (seriously), a long established Sicilian tradition 8)

  • #110787
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I have to confess shakeel that we do in fact keep a baseball bat, a genuine early wooden one, in the house (seriously), a long established Sicilian tradition 8)

  • #110488
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    What you all seem to miss here is in fact that law and EU treaties are structured in support of the system. The system may be corrupt and it is as we all have witnessed but the law still prevails and as W.H. Auden wrote ‘The Law is the Law’.

    If a debt is deemed lawful in Spain it’s lawful everywhere else in the EU. Courts will and can only act in accordance with legal treaties. It does not matter in law if the system is corrupt the law still prevails. You cannot cherry pick which laws you choose to keep and those to ignore.

    Suggesting to people they ignore it or find methods to circumvent what plainly was originally designed with the best of intentions by lawmakers is ill advised and just plain wrong. Such action in my experience always eventually brings the house down on top of them.

    In fact there was an article posted on here some time ago where a British couple had a charging order placed on their UK property by a UK court for a Spanish bank debt and were being forced to sell the house. Trying to find it is difficult but it was on a thread Mark had started on this subject.

    As long as these legal instruments exist between EU nations they will eventually be used and tested in the courts. It’s sheer folly to think you can escape just because you and your assets are geographically located outside where the debt originates. The system will always win and always break you.

    Here is that example posted on here.

    Repossession timebomb

  • #110788
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    What you all seem to miss here is in fact that law and EU treaties are structured in support of the system. The system may be corrupt and it is as we all have witnessed but the law still prevails and as W.H. Auden wrote ‘The Law is the Law’.

    If a debt is deemed lawful in Spain it’s lawful everywhere else in the EU. Courts will and can only act in accordance with legal treaties. It does not matter in law if the system is corrupt the law still prevails. You cannot cherry pick which laws you choose to keep and those to ignore.

    Suggesting to people they ignore it or find methods to circumvent what plainly was originally designed with the best of intentions by lawmakers is ill advised and just plain wrong. Such action in my experience always eventually brings the house down on top of them.

    In fact there was an article posted on here some time ago where a British couple had a charging order placed on their UK property by a UK court for a Spanish bank debt and were being forced to sell the house. Trying to find it is difficult but it was on a thread Mark had started on this subject.

    As long as these legal instruments exist between EU nations they will eventually be used and tested in the courts. It’s sheer folly to think you can escape just because you and your assets are geographically located outside where the debt originates. The system will always win and always break you.

    Here is that example posted on here.

    Repossession timebomb

  • #110490
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Logan I’m saying that’s what I would do in that circumstance, that’s me, if the Bank has been negligent, corrupt etc then it too has broken the law and basically may not have a case if it follows it up. Meanwhile it will cause a lot of distress to itsme and others in pursuance of a claim that may well be thrown out, who wants the hassle? It’s not sheer folly to remove such distress from your life if you were ripped-off by the offending Bank or claimant, make life difficult for them, don’t roll over and die : πŸ™„

    If the British couple abused the Spanish Bank for a legitimate claim that they owe to the Bank, then the Bank can but may not pursue them, however if the couple were mis-sold the product then I say ‘sod the Bank’ ‘do your worst’, meanwhile putting my UK property out of reach which lots of Brits have not done before buying in Spain, always surprises me. There is also a lot of scaremongering going on too from these Banks many of which are corrupt themselves 😑

    Anyway, I have also posted the link to an article on EOS and The Olive Tree which suggests itsme and others could cite previous case history of where the Banks cannot pursue these debts. πŸ˜‰

  • #110790
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Logan I’m saying that’s what I would do in that circumstance, that’s me, if the Bank has been negligent, corrupt etc then it too has broken the law and basically may not have a case if it follows it up. Meanwhile it will cause a lot of distress to itsme and others in pursuance of a claim that may well be thrown out, who wants the hassle? It’s not sheer folly to remove such distress from your life if you were ripped-off by the offending Bank or claimant, make life difficult for them, don’t roll over and die : πŸ™„

    If the British couple abused the Spanish Bank for a legitimate claim that they owe to the Bank, then the Bank can but may not pursue them, however if the couple were mis-sold the product then I say ‘sod the Bank’ ‘do your worst’, meanwhile putting my UK property out of reach which lots of Brits have not done before buying in Spain, always surprises me. There is also a lot of scaremongering going on too from these Banks many of which are corrupt themselves 😑

    Anyway, I have also posted the link to an article on EOS and The Olive Tree which suggests itsme and others could cite previous case history of where the Banks cannot pursue these debts. πŸ˜‰

  • #110496
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for all the input everyone.

    Tricky situ though.

    My husband is Spanish, his name is on the deeds with his parents (now just his father living) as guarantor.

    I understand that my father in law could start moving his redundancy money into other peoples names, his mortgage/property but if anyone knows local Spanish small town people they’d know that even the mention of this would scare the heck out of him. He just wouldn’t understand it or want to even consider it.

    The flat was bought in 2005 with 100% mortgage with Banesto (thanks for that bank manager suggesting that my husbands savings of 20k go into the pot rather than as a deposit, first error).

    In 2006 the new Banesto bank manager suggested we remortgage with his friend, second error, why didn’t we suss that Banesto wouldn’t want us to go to CajaMurcia?? Anyway, they made it all sound so great. We had 5000 euros of credit card debt and with this new mortgage we’d add that into our mortgage payments for only 50 euros per month extra.

    The ‘lovely’ Jorge came round to the flat with his friend to value the flat. I had my baby son in my arms are he did it. He knew he was conning us and still went ahead.

    The same Jorge came round in person a few weeks later with an advance on the mortgage of 10k in cash. What great service, but a bit strange we though, why couldn’t we go into the branch? That turned out to be 13,000 euros on the bank system. 3000 euros commision for driving for less than 30 mins. Nice work if you can get it.

    The mortgage was taking a long time to be finalised until they finally said that due to my husbands wages not being enough he’d have to ask his parents to sign as guarantors. They did this and afterwards found a loan at Banesto in my father in laws name for 15,000 euros. The bank manager had done a runner and the new manager said that there were two blank cheques taken out.

    The current Banesto manager says that she has a file of other things Fernando did but since he stole from customers and not the bank then it’s not their responsibility (!!!)

    Anyway, we then had a 120,000 mortgage, ended up paying more than the 50 euros a month more than we previously had. My parents in law had to clear the 15,000 euros (which we still now owe them).

    The banks conned us. We didn’t get the flat to make a quick buck. The first price was 95,000 euros. If say the 20k savings was used as a deposit we would have started with a 75k mortgage.

    We currently owe 108,000 euros and the banks have now added to our online banking page 22,000 euros in the reclaim section. They were the ones who valued the property at 185,000 euros (on the deeds we have). We only needed 5k to clear the credit card!!! We didn’t get any of the extra cash, it was them who creamed it off. We feel so foolish.

    We can’t hand the keys back as the bank will embargo my father in laws redundancy money directly from his bank account. They can’t do that, well I wouldn’t put it past them!!! They want our money because they know so many others have walked away.

    Dacion en pago isn’t an option for us whilst we have a guarantor. What he guaranteed the mortgage with I don’t know, where would it be stated? My father in law used to earn good money, 2 or 3000 euros per month after 30 years in a factory. If he’s now not working is the guarantee not valid if we can prove that he actually can’t pay? Is his redundancy safe? I have heard that his pension is?

    Other examples of banks behaviour that I know:

    Friend was behind on mortgage, she’d given her parents address in UK at first when buying the property. The bank wrote a letter, in english, to her parents highlighting that their daughter was behind on the mortgage. They weren’t guarantors, this was just heavy handed.

    A guy was behind on mortgage with CAM bank. They’d call him at 4am to ask when he was going to pay money in.

    Our bank send letters to my mother in law separately from my father in law. They know that she sadly passed away but still send the letters.

    We just have to pay. Somehow. If there is a way of just paying when we can we’ll pay. I hate the stress of them constantly chasing us when they conned us in the first place (well, people representing the banks). So many need to be in prison for what they’ve done.

    Thanks everyone

  • #110796
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for all the input everyone.

    Tricky situ though.

    My husband is Spanish, his name is on the deeds with his parents (now just his father living) as guarantor.

    I understand that my father in law could start moving his redundancy money into other peoples names, his mortgage/property but if anyone knows local Spanish small town people they’d know that even the mention of this would scare the heck out of him. He just wouldn’t understand it or want to even consider it.

    The flat was bought in 2005 with 100% mortgage with Banesto (thanks for that bank manager suggesting that my husbands savings of 20k go into the pot rather than as a deposit, first error).

    In 2006 the new Banesto bank manager suggested we remortgage with his friend, second error, why didn’t we suss that Banesto wouldn’t want us to go to CajaMurcia?? Anyway, they made it all sound so great. We had 5000 euros of credit card debt and with this new mortgage we’d add that into our mortgage payments for only 50 euros per month extra.

    The ‘lovely’ Jorge came round to the flat with his friend to value the flat. I had my baby son in my arms are he did it. He knew he was conning us and still went ahead.

    The same Jorge came round in person a few weeks later with an advance on the mortgage of 10k in cash. What great service, but a bit strange we though, why couldn’t we go into the branch? That turned out to be 13,000 euros on the bank system. 3000 euros commision for driving for less than 30 mins. Nice work if you can get it.

    The mortgage was taking a long time to be finalised until they finally said that due to my husbands wages not being enough he’d have to ask his parents to sign as guarantors. They did this and afterwards found a loan at Banesto in my father in laws name for 15,000 euros. The bank manager had done a runner and the new manager said that there were two blank cheques taken out.

    The current Banesto manager says that she has a file of other things Fernando did but since he stole from customers and not the bank then it’s not their responsibility (!!!)

    Anyway, we then had a 120,000 mortgage, ended up paying more than the 50 euros a month more than we previously had. My parents in law had to clear the 15,000 euros (which we still now owe them).

    The banks conned us. We didn’t get the flat to make a quick buck. The first price was 95,000 euros. If say the 20k savings was used as a deposit we would have started with a 75k mortgage.

    We currently owe 108,000 euros and the banks have now added to our online banking page 22,000 euros in the reclaim section. They were the ones who valued the property at 185,000 euros (on the deeds we have). We only needed 5k to clear the credit card!!! We didn’t get any of the extra cash, it was them who creamed it off. We feel so foolish.

    We can’t hand the keys back as the bank will embargo my father in laws redundancy money directly from his bank account. They can’t do that, well I wouldn’t put it past them!!! They want our money because they know so many others have walked away.

    Dacion en pago isn’t an option for us whilst we have a guarantor. What he guaranteed the mortgage with I don’t know, where would it be stated? My father in law used to earn good money, 2 or 3000 euros per month after 30 years in a factory. If he’s now not working is the guarantee not valid if we can prove that he actually can’t pay? Is his redundancy safe? I have heard that his pension is?

    Other examples of banks behaviour that I know:

    Friend was behind on mortgage, she’d given her parents address in UK at first when buying the property. The bank wrote a letter, in english, to her parents highlighting that their daughter was behind on the mortgage. They weren’t guarantors, this was just heavy handed.

    A guy was behind on mortgage with CAM bank. They’d call him at 4am to ask when he was going to pay money in.

    Our bank send letters to my mother in law separately from my father in law. They know that she sadly passed away but still send the letters.

    We just have to pay. Somehow. If there is a way of just paying when we can we’ll pay. I hate the stress of them constantly chasing us when they conned us in the first place (well, people representing the banks). So many need to be in prison for what they’ve done.

    Thanks everyone

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