So.. is it just Spain?

LoadingFavourite

This topic contains 31 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of angie angie 5 years, 9 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #56146
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    I was at home in the UK last weekend, and listening to Radio 4, I missed the start of this story but picked up the thread quite quickly, was so depressing, hearing this poor chap talking on the phone to a company pounding into him about how he should buy more land and now, how his current land investment was going to be worth 500% more within weeks blah, blah, blah…

    It was horrific, just unbelievable, at first I thought they must be talking about something in Spain but lo and behold it wasn’t it was the UK…

    Now, Spain gets a helluva panning here good and often on this site, and oh but am sorely tempted every time I see an unemployment figure, a banking issue, and many other posts with links to crisis stories to counter with links to the state of the UK economy and all its perils, but you know what… it would just double the doom and gloom.

    I just felt so sorry for this poor chap, it was heart rending listen to him talk to the reporter and the tactics of the sales company over the phone were horrific… but it happens and it happened – is happening – in the UK and by the account in the BBC blog post, it is just the tip of the iceberg.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12609590

    So, so much for that paragon of virtue island the UK that this kind of thing can happen hey!

    Invest £100,000 and its not worth tuppence.

  • #103176
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Bit naive though don’t you think? There have been warnings about these companies for a few years, about as common as the Nigerian scammers.

    Are you aware that many of these boiler room call centres are operating from the CDS (at least one in Elviria!). Apparently they are based in Spain because the regulations are lax re. cold calling.

    One case here

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7079614.ece

  • #103365
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Bit naive though don’t you think? There have been warnings about these companies for a few years, about as common as the Nigerian scammers.

    Are you aware that many of these boiler room call centres are operating from the CDS (at least one in Elviria!). Apparently they are based in Spain because the regulations are lax re. cold calling.

    One case here

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7079614.ece

  • #103184
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Bit naive though don’t you think? There have been warnings about these companies for a few years, about as common as the Nigerian scammers.
    Are you aware that many of these boiler room call centres are operating from the CDS (at least one in Elviria!). Apparently they are based in Spain because the regulations are lax re. cold calling.
    One case here
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7079614.ece

    Very naive, tragically so, like I said it was heart rending, and yes I am aware of countless call centres in Spain selling all sorts to people in the UK, it is horrific but my point is, this call centre as far as I am aware is not in Spain, it is in UK and the practice is in UK, preying upon people with alacrity – hope that’s the right word – so please don’t just immediately turn this into all of a sudden being the fault of Spain.

    My point is we have acute problems, scams and horror stories of our own in the UK, it happens everywhere and our laws seem to be as useless and people as helpless in helping people being caught out and ripped off in the UK.

    “It would never happen in the UK…” is often a position of many on here but am sorry… it evidently does, and very badly. Just offering a touch of balance.

  • #103369
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Bit naive though don’t you think? There have been warnings about these companies for a few years, about as common as the Nigerian scammers.
    Are you aware that many of these boiler room call centres are operating from the CDS (at least one in Elviria!). Apparently they are based in Spain because the regulations are lax re. cold calling.
    One case here
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7079614.ece

    Very naive, tragically so, like I said it was heart rending, and yes I am aware of countless call centres in Spain selling all sorts to people in the UK, it is horrific but my point is, this call centre as far as I am aware is not in Spain, it is in UK and the practice is in UK, preying upon people with alacrity – hope that’s the right word – so please don’t just immediately turn this into all of a sudden being the fault of Spain.

    My point is we have acute problems, scams and horror stories of our own in the UK, it happens everywhere and our laws seem to be as useless and people as helpless in helping people being caught out and ripped off in the UK.

    “It would never happen in the UK…” is often a position of many on here but am sorry… it evidently does, and very badly. Just offering a touch of balance.

  • #103186
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    it does happen in the uk but at least if the scammers or land agents or what ever are brought to court it gets dealt with fairly quickley and you know where you stand then and its not dragged out for ages adding to the stress and cost

  • #103370
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    it does happen in the uk but at least if the scammers or land agents or what ever are brought to court it gets dealt with fairly quickley and you know where you stand then and its not dragged out for ages adding to the stress and cost

  • #103190
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wel said Dart boy. This is precisely why many will not set up scams in UK & if they do they have a very short life span. They know they dont have a chance in the Courts & we still dont have a £500 note.

  • #103372
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wel said Dart boy. This is precisely why many will not set up scams in UK & if they do they have a very short life span. They know they dont have a chance in the Courts & we still dont have a £500 note.

  • #103194
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    I was at home in the UK last weekend, and listening to Radio 4, I missed the start of this story but picked up the thread quite quickly, was so depressing, hearing this poor chap talking on the phone to a company pounding into him about how he should buy more land and now, how his current land investment was going to be worth 500% more within weeks blah, blah, blah…

    It was horrific, just unbelievable, at first I thought they must be talking about something in Spain but lo and behold it wasn’t it was the UK…

    Now, Spain gets a helluva panning here good and often on this site, and oh but am sorely tempted every time I see an unemployment figure, a banking issue, and many other posts with links to crisis stories to counter with links to the state of the UK economy and all its perils, but you know what… it would just double the doom and gloom.

    I just felt so sorry for this poor chap, it was heart rending listen to him talk to the reporter and the tactics of the sales company over the phone were horrific… but it happens and it happened – is happening – in the UK and by the account in the BBC blog post, it is just the tip of the iceberg.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12609590

    So, so much for that paragon of virtue island the UK that this kind of thing can happen hey!

    Invest £100,000 and its not worth tuppence.

    This will cheer you up Chris

    http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/2011-03-11-UK-mortgage-lending-down-29-in-January

  • #103374
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    I was at home in the UK last weekend, and listening to Radio 4, I missed the start of this story but picked up the thread quite quickly, was so depressing, hearing this poor chap talking on the phone to a company pounding into him about how he should buy more land and now, how his current land investment was going to be worth 500% more within weeks blah, blah, blah…

    It was horrific, just unbelievable, at first I thought they must be talking about something in Spain but lo and behold it wasn’t it was the UK…

    Now, Spain gets a helluva panning here good and often on this site, and oh but am sorely tempted every time I see an unemployment figure, a banking issue, and many other posts with links to crisis stories to counter with links to the state of the UK economy and all its perils, but you know what… it would just double the doom and gloom.

    I just felt so sorry for this poor chap, it was heart rending listen to him talk to the reporter and the tactics of the sales company over the phone were horrific… but it happens and it happened – is happening – in the UK and by the account in the BBC blog post, it is just the tip of the iceberg.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12609590

    So, so much for that paragon of virtue island the UK that this kind of thing can happen hey!

    Invest £100,000 and its not worth tuppence.

    This will cheer you up Chris

    http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/2011-03-11-UK-mortgage-lending-down-29-in-January

  • #103196
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Almost all the land sale scams were carried out from Spain. Just google boiler room scams spain and all the people involved were British but operating from Spain. The only UK connection was the victims who lost millions.

  • #103375
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Almost all the land sale scams were carried out from Spain. Just google boiler room scams spain and all the people involved were British but operating from Spain. The only UK connection was the victims who lost millions.

  • #103198
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy: You are right to say that the ‘boiler room scams’ are mostly run from Spain but those are companies offering stock market based ‘investments.

    The land sale scams are however, a mostly UK based operation, google land sales scams & you will see the actions that the authorities are taking such as applying to the High Court to close down the various Uk based companies involved & taking action against the directors.

    I’ve seen comments in my local press (in Surrey) from people who have ‘invested in these schemes who still say that it’s a good deal because they were told that it could take up to 10 years for planning permission to be granted & that time hasn’t run out yet. Despite all the publicity here & there is alot, people still think they can make money.

    Just as in Spain, clever salesmen sell themselves get people to trust them to the point that facts are ignored.

    On this particular ‘scam’ one fact above all others should be shouted very loud: Not one of these land sales has EVER got planning permission, that alone should put people off but it doesn’t.

    Greed seems to trump everything!

  • #103376
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy: You are right to say that the ‘boiler room scams’ are mostly run from Spain but those are companies offering stock market based ‘investments.

    The land sale scams are however, a mostly UK based operation, google land sales scams & you will see the actions that the authorities are taking such as applying to the High Court to close down the various Uk based companies involved & taking action against the directors.

    I’ve seen comments in my local press (in Surrey) from people who have ‘invested in these schemes who still say that it’s a good deal because they were told that it could take up to 10 years for planning permission to be granted & that time hasn’t run out yet. Despite all the publicity here & there is alot, people still think they can make money.

    Just as in Spain, clever salesmen sell themselves get people to trust them to the point that facts are ignored.

    On this particular ‘scam’ one fact above all others should be shouted very loud: Not one of these land sales has EVER got planning permission, that alone should put people off but it doesn’t.

    Greed seems to trump everything!

  • #103202
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    If you look into the background most of them including the ones selling land operated out of Spain. They used spanish call centres because it is easier as the laws aren’t as tight regarding cold calling. Many of the British scammers were described as spanish residents when arrested.

    Even if we go down the route of splitting hairs confirming that there are scams in the UK it doesn’t make any difference to what has happened in Spain. Bit of difference to buying a house, using a Lawyer and ending up with a illegal house than buying land over the phone!

  • #103378
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    If you look into the background most of them including the ones selling land operated out of Spain. They used spanish call centres because it is easier as the laws aren’t as tight regarding cold calling. Many of the British scammers were described as spanish residents when arrested.

    Even if we go down the route of splitting hairs confirming that there are scams in the UK it doesn’t make any difference to what has happened in Spain. Bit of difference to buying a house, using a Lawyer and ending up with a illegal house than buying land over the phone!

  • #103204
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    let’s not forget the scammers are Brits; not Spaniards!!!! ……. also, don’t forget the Brits have been cheating each other for decades; eg.. the endowment policy scam, the contracting out of serps scam, personal pension scam, the life insurance company crooks in the 80’s misselling on a grand scale (allied dunbar, m i group et al), not to mention time share scamming (yes, i know many time share companies offer a great product with happy punters!!) ……

    Chris is right – the cheats do their apprenticeship in the UK before branching out across the world …………..

    caveat emptor – the world is full of crooks and wide eyed simpletons!!!

  • #103379
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    let’s not forget the scammers are Brits; not Spaniards!!!! ……. also, don’t forget the Brits have been cheating each other for decades; eg.. the endowment policy scam, the contracting out of serps scam, personal pension scam, the life insurance company crooks in the 80’s misselling on a grand scale (allied dunbar, m i group et al), not to mention time share scamming (yes, i know many time share companies offer a great product with happy punters!!) ……

    Chris is right – the cheats do their apprenticeship in the UK before branching out across the world …………..

    caveat emptor – the world is full of crooks and wide eyed simpletons!!!

  • #103208
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes they are Brits…as were most of the crooked estate agents who sold illegal property or property never built in Spain.

    I first heard about the boiler rooms selling land in Spain around 2002. Someone I knew worked in a call centre on the CDS. She was always boasting about the money she was earning. The last time I saw her was in 2006 when I visited her in Alhaurin prison!

    http://property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/overseas/article5437968.ece

    The only thing that has changed is that spanish ex-pats changed the land “deals” to UK land because it sounded more stable than spanish land. About 18 months ago I saw an ad’ in sur in english “operators wanted for our call centre in elviria to sell land” 🙄

    A report said that a third of all boiler rooms in the world are run from Spain.

  • #103381
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes they are Brits…as were most of the crooked estate agents who sold illegal property or property never built in Spain.

    I first heard about the boiler rooms selling land in Spain around 2002. Someone I knew worked in a call centre on the CDS. She was always boasting about the money she was earning. The last time I saw her was in 2006 when I visited her in Alhaurin prison!

    http://property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/overseas/article5437968.ece

    The only thing that has changed is that spanish ex-pats changed the land “deals” to UK land because it sounded more stable than spanish land. About 18 months ago I saw an ad’ in sur in english “operators wanted for our call centre in elviria to sell land” 🙄

    A report said that a third of all boiler rooms in the world are run from Spain.

  • #103216
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I saw a bit about this on tv and heard it on the radio too, and yes of course such scams re land occur in the UK too Chris.

    The big difference though it’s never on such a grand scale as similar scams re land and property in Spain, Turkey, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Cape Verde etc and that is a fact that can’t be ignored. UK scams are miniscule compared to Spanish etc Mis-selling, Land Grab, Lawyers, illegal builds, no planning permissions, Town Halls Mayors, Bank transfer costs, completion costs but you are right Spain is not the only culprit.

    Also, going to Court in the UK re legal proceedings will happen a lot, lot quicker in the UK, exposure of such scams will hit the Press and media quicker too.

    Remember too, that many of the mis-selling scams involving Spanish property and other countries were perpetrated by Brits working for the UK agents involved, both in the UK and abroad and often with the lead coming from major UK agents.

    Katy is quite right about boiler room activity starting from Spain.

  • #103385
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I saw a bit about this on tv and heard it on the radio too, and yes of course such scams re land occur in the UK too Chris.

    The big difference though it’s never on such a grand scale as similar scams re land and property in Spain, Turkey, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Cape Verde etc and that is a fact that can’t be ignored. UK scams are miniscule compared to Spanish etc Mis-selling, Land Grab, Lawyers, illegal builds, no planning permissions, Town Halls Mayors, Bank transfer costs, completion costs but you are right Spain is not the only culprit.

    Also, going to Court in the UK re legal proceedings will happen a lot, lot quicker in the UK, exposure of such scams will hit the Press and media quicker too.

    Remember too, that many of the mis-selling scams involving Spanish property and other countries were perpetrated by Brits working for the UK agents involved, both in the UK and abroad and often with the lead coming from major UK agents.

    Katy is quite right about boiler room activity starting from Spain.

  • #103224
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I appreciate the OPs motive, there may be a need for more balance on this forum, and I was going to suggest that English agents were just as bad as the Spanish ones, but my pen started to wobble; nothing in the UK can even come close to the villainous deeds I have witnessed in Spain. Spanish corruption in relation to property deals was, and possibly still is horrendous, and it’s endemic, embedded in the national genes. Ripping off the Ricos is a national sport and every Brit setting foot on the Iberian peninsula is considered a Rico.

    Once you’ve settled into this otherwise beautiful country, you quickly get used to it and I would suggest it’s a small price to pay for the quality of life that exists beneath the corrupt practices. I don’t even bother to ask tradesmen for invoices and know that I pay 40 Centimes more for my cup of coffee in certain places, but I’m lucky enough not to have to listen to any more lies from any of the agents out there.

  • #103389
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I appreciate the OPs motive, there may be a need for more balance on this forum, and I was going to suggest that English agents were just as bad as the Spanish ones, but my pen started to wobble; nothing in the UK can even come close to the villainous deeds I have witnessed in Spain. Spanish corruption in relation to property deals was, and possibly still is horrendous, and it’s endemic, embedded in the national genes. Ripping off the Ricos is a national sport and every Brit setting foot on the Iberian peninsula is considered a Rico.

    Once you’ve settled into this otherwise beautiful country, you quickly get used to it and I would suggest it’s a small price to pay for the quality of life that exists beneath the corrupt practices. I don’t even bother to ask tradesmen for invoices and know that I pay 40 Centimes more for my cup of coffee in certain places, but I’m lucky enough not to have to listen to any more lies from any of the agents out there.

  • #103248
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I work in finance in the City London. These guys that were working in the boiler rooms in Barca are exactly the same outfit that are now operating in London, selling greenbelt land as an ‘investment opportunity.’ They are recruiting ‘sales consultants’ in London on a 5% commission of sale and a 1.5k a month salary for any potential employee, plus the potential of a free flat. None of which exists.

    Due to the ample available office space available in London, they are to trade and move on within a few weeks. Their last named location was Greenwich (February).

    This practice is highly illegal and time will tell if they are ever caught. Speaking to people that traded there they won’t be. They are highly transient and have huge fiscal resources to set up anywhere and anytime. They are not just opportunists,’ they have a well briefed team of highly motivated sales staff and legal team.
    .
    The land that currently being sold ‘DOES’ exist but will probably never obtain planning consent and is currently worthless.

    Can someone explain what does ‘Rico’ mean? Is it just rich?? I lived in Spain for a bit but never heard it. Perhaps I look like a tramp and they thought it inappropriate.

    Lucky Rocker doesn’t live in France. He would be charged double for his coffee for being English.

  • #103401
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I work in finance in the City London. These guys that were working in the boiler rooms in Barca are exactly the same outfit that are now operating in London, selling greenbelt land as an ‘investment opportunity.’ They are recruiting ‘sales consultants’ in London on a 5% commission of sale and a 1.5k a month salary for any potential employee, plus the potential of a free flat. None of which exists.

    Due to the ample available office space available in London, they are to trade and move on within a few weeks. Their last named location was Greenwich (February).

    This practice is highly illegal and time will tell if they are ever caught. Speaking to people that traded there they won’t be. They are highly transient and have huge fiscal resources to set up anywhere and anytime. They are not just opportunists,’ they have a well briefed team of highly motivated sales staff and legal team.
    .
    The land that currently being sold ‘DOES’ exist but will probably never obtain planning consent and is currently worthless.

    Can someone explain what does ‘Rico’ mean? Is it just rich?? I lived in Spain for a bit but never heard it. Perhaps I look like a tramp and they thought it inappropriate.

    Lucky Rocker doesn’t live in France. He would be charged double for his coffee for being English.

  • #103260
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    let’s not forget the scammers are Brits; not Spaniards!!!! ……. also, don’t forget the Brits have been cheating each other for decades; eg.. the endowment policy scam, the contracting out of serps scam, personal pension scam, the life insurance company crooks in the 80’s misselling on a grand scale (allied dunbar, m i group et al), not to mention time share scamming (yes, i know many time share companies offer a great product with happy punters!!) ……

    Chris is right – the cheats do their apprenticeship in the UK before branching out across the world …………..

    caveat emptor – the world is full of crooks and wide eyed simpletons!!!

    Thank you.

    Someone recognising that the British are amongst the most succurilous, lying, cheating, conniving and thieving ******’s on the planet. We need to remember that when we go accusing Spain of every misdemeanour under the sun.

    Katy, this was not an Elviria team, it was based in the UK and the BBC agrees with Rob, it is likely they will NEVER be caught and they will go on, and my god should have heard them pitching and hounding this poor old guy to death. Stealing his money as bold and as large as life with not a hint of care or remorse. And when he was begging not to buy any more they still came at him like a pack of wolves.

    And the British are in many instance far more complicit and guilty of many of the issues applying to Spain, than are the Spanish, we need to dump this holier than thou view and approach, and making out like it is all Spain’s fault.

    It isn’t, it wasn’t, its a shared responsibility.

  • #103407
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    let’s not forget the scammers are Brits; not Spaniards!!!! ……. also, don’t forget the Brits have been cheating each other for decades; eg.. the endowment policy scam, the contracting out of serps scam, personal pension scam, the life insurance company crooks in the 80’s misselling on a grand scale (allied dunbar, m i group et al), not to mention time share scamming (yes, i know many time share companies offer a great product with happy punters!!) ……

    Chris is right – the cheats do their apprenticeship in the UK before branching out across the world …………..

    caveat emptor – the world is full of crooks and wide eyed simpletons!!!

    Thank you.

    Someone recognising that the British are amongst the most succurilous, lying, cheating, conniving and thieving ******’s on the planet. We need to remember that when we go accusing Spain of every misdemeanour under the sun.

    Katy, this was not an Elviria team, it was based in the UK and the BBC agrees with Rob, it is likely they will NEVER be caught and they will go on, and my god should have heard them pitching and hounding this poor old guy to death. Stealing his money as bold and as large as life with not a hint of care or remorse. And when he was begging not to buy any more they still came at him like a pack of wolves.

    And the British are in many instance far more complicit and guilty of many of the issues applying to Spain, than are the Spanish, we need to dump this holier than thou view and approach, and making out like it is all Spain’s fault.

    It isn’t, it wasn’t, its a shared responsibility.

  • #103262
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Some of you are missing the point…I didn’t say it is in elviria, I was giving EXAMPLES. I don’t know where property partnership does it’s cold calling from. However, in 99% of cases they are BASED IN SPAIN. According to the FSA they are run from SPAIN because there is less regulation re.cold calling. Their method of operating is to have the call diverted to a UK number.

    In any case I don’t see your point…everyone (almost) is aware that British people were/are some of the main con-artists in Spain, not called costa del crime for nothing! This man was naive to the point of being stupid, greedy too. I don’t see the comparison with a pensioner buying a villa in Spain using the correct procedures and then finding out the house is illegal. This certainly wouldn’t happen in the UK or most other countries in the world.

    Spain’s reputation re. property rights and scams is indefensible.

    Just to clarify A boiler room is not the name for only selling shares, it also applies to selling Land, Gold or whatever else they can cobble up to scam people. Anyone interested should google “boiler room scams spain”

  • #103408
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Some of you are missing the point…I didn’t say it is in elviria, I was giving EXAMPLES. I don’t know where property partnership does it’s cold calling from. However, in 99% of cases they are BASED IN SPAIN. According to the FSA they are run from SPAIN because there is less regulation re.cold calling. Their method of operating is to have the call diverted to a UK number.

    In any case I don’t see your point…everyone (almost) is aware that British people were/are some of the main con-artists in Spain, not called costa del crime for nothing! This man was naive to the point of being stupid, greedy too. I don’t see the comparison with a pensioner buying a villa in Spain using the correct procedures and then finding out the house is illegal. This certainly wouldn’t happen in the UK or most other countries in the world.

    Spain’s reputation re. property rights and scams is indefensible.

    Just to clarify A boiler room is not the name for only selling shares, it also applies to selling Land, Gold or whatever else they can cobble up to scam people. Anyone interested should google “boiler room scams spain”

  • #103442
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Quite right too katy, there is no comparison as you say, apart from it’s a scam nonetheless.

    In the UK some of these so called land sales were as a result of Pikeys and scammers buying up large fields, sub-dividing them into small plots, no access into them, no planning permission, yet sold as if they will get planning, unlike the 1000’s of mis-sold illegal builds, Land Grabs, huge commission off-plans, blighted or concrete urban sprawls all over the Spanish Coasts.

    As I said before, the UK’s occasional reporting of such scams within the UK, numbers wise, pale into insignificance compared to Spain’s and other Club Med and overseas countries.

    But Chris is right, Spain is not alone for scams, maybe the past masters yet often copied though 🙄

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.