- June 8, 2006 at 8:13 am #51886
i’m new to this site, so please excuse me, if i’m going over old ground!
miraflores has around 50 people so far, that have completed and moved in.
Three problems as i see it so far, 1- no first habitation licence and two, all the apartments are 25-30% smaller can in the original plan, (they have crammed in extra apartments in to each block) that we purchased from, and 3- there should have been 2 mains pools and now there is only 1!
My questions are, why are lawyers advising people to complete without a habitation licence?, why should we pay the full price for considerably smaller apartments and only 1 pool. How do builders (aifos) get away with not building to specification, and still expect us to pay the same final amount?
I have not been asked to complete yet, but if the licence does come through, can my lawyer withhold some payment due to the above?
I realise my spanish lawyer should be looking after my interests on these matters, but since i have heard that they are advising people to complete without a 1st habitation licence, i’m starting to lose trust!
- June 8, 2006 at 9:09 am #62677
Just read the post above “My shocking story” to see what can happen. It seems despite everything most lawyers are still assisting the developers by allowing their clients to complete without giving them apropriate advice (I’m not getting at the lawyers on here, I know you don’t). Think its time the lawyers colegios held a few training days to update them on what is happening (and teach them about ethics).
regarding the size of the apartment, there are some previous posts on this and you can be awarded compensation. Do you have an independent lawyer or were they recommended by the developer/agent?
- June 8, 2006 at 9:30 am #62679
yes, we were reccomended our lawyer by our agents
- June 8, 2006 at 8:11 pm #62699
Have a look at the following link and Cesar’s post on this subject – it might help – good luck
- June 8, 2006 at 8:17 pm #62701
Hi Goodstitch44, I hope things turn out well for you. Whatever you do, DONT sign until you get that certificate. Look at my situ!
Is it a permanent home or a holiday home your buying? I think Miraflores is a few metres up the road from me, am I correct? I’m in San Roque (old town).
- June 8, 2006 at 8:24 pm #62703
yes it’s a holiday/investment (dont laugh) home.
- June 8, 2006 at 10:12 pm #62706
i have been reading earlier posts tonight, and it seems we do have grounds for compensation, for both change of contract specification (plot should have been 100m2 turned out 78m2, so unreasonable reduction in size) and 1 pool less than plan, plus an unreasonable delay in finishing site (we were told 18 months to two years max) and 4 years so far!
Do we sign up, paying the full balance, as soon as 1st habitation licence comes through, and then spend years trying to get compensation from aifos (or whoever represents them following seizure of assets, according to press) or do we, when required to complete, refuse to pay the full balance even with habitation licence, for reasons above and hold up the whole thing for even longer?
one couple i’ve spoken to, said they were advised by our same agents and lawyers to pay the full amount and complete without a habitation licence, and sort out the problems later, this can’t be right can it? (our lawyers were recommended by our agents)
Any help from a lawyer that knows the position on this could be a financial lifesaver for us, i just don’t know who i can trust anymore,
- June 9, 2006 at 7:56 am #62711
This whole situation does sound most peculiar! It sounds like a “damned if you do and damned if you don’t” case. It sounds like the lawyer wants to proceed regardless of any claims you might have to make in the future, to get the main sale completed. But it seems to me that once all parties get all their money, they tend to wave bye bye and leave you to pick up the mess they left behind. Four years is an inconceivable amount of time to be waiting on this anyway, but I personally wouldnt hand over another penny if i was unhappy thus far.
I know for example that one of my neighbours refuses to complete his sale now, on the basis that his house is not up to spec, even though pressure is thrown at him to cough up. This is even before a habitation licence is issued. They want him to join the miserable fold of our street. But of course their not telling him the whole story, the developers keep on telling him all will be resolved manana! Not true, manana has lasted seven months.
- June 9, 2006 at 8:52 am #62714
that’s how i feel, why the hell should we throw more money at this place without a sizable decrease in the balance we should have to pay, when it’s obviously not been built to specification, even after 4 years!
the trouble is about 50 people have, and have moved in, under advice from, in some cases. lawyers and agents.
If they will knock 22% from the final balance (which roughly equals the reductionin m2 of the apartment) and the habitation licence comes through and everthing else looks o.k on our next inspection trip, i will probably go ahead, and try and get compensation for the 1 pool instead of 2, at a later date.
my fear is that by me refusing to complete at the full sum, because of above changes to plan, this might drag on indefinately, so as you say, without any help from an authority in spain, that can say i’m within my rights to refuse to pay the full amount, i’m stuck between a rock and a hard place? and how long will it take to sort out?
- June 9, 2006 at 9:12 am #62716
This is my opinion mate, and im pretty crap at legal stuff, but your case is irking me now and I’m getting riled up over it myself lol..
SOD the muppets who have handed over all their cash already and moved in, their going to suffer in a different way!
YOU signed a contract that promised YOU precise specifications. This has not happened and you are now suffering because of their incompetence in NOT providing it. Not only have you waited four years to complete now you are being asked to pay full whack for a different deal altogether. Am I right or am I right?
Sue the rotten developers for breach of contract! I can’t believe that in this country which is a full part of the EC, the higher authorities allow this sort of practice to go on. I fully believe that the more we give in and keep on parting with our cash (regardless of their continuous f*** ups) the more these developers are going to continue their *illegal* practices. This is just giving them licence to repeat the same rubbish in future development deals for new buyers and for generations to come.
I am sorry for bad language but I am so angry at these bloody idiots, (please dont kick me off the board) 😉
I wouldnt personally give another CENT away to these criminals.
Get your lawyer to PRESS them for a reduction in your completion amount NOW that is reasonable and fair, or a fair offer of compensation, and if he whinges about it and says no, you should sign and we’ll sort it out later – tell him to f-off and look for another lawyer who will.
Have you spoken to the planning dept about this? Perhaps even the Jugado (courts). Grab all your papers together and put pressure on these scumbags to negotiate. Of course the pressure is all on you now to open your wallet again after having waited forever. You have been robbed before you’ve even handed over the final sum, and thats the bottom line.
That is just how i feel about it, and hope not to give you any bad judgement, but i really feel for you and would love to see you find a decent solution.
- June 9, 2006 at 9:46 am #62717
And whilst on the subject… as im all riled up now David! 😈 does you not completing mean that the others who have moved in cannot connect to the water/elec board. Does this licence apply to the whole development? Cos I know that the guy whose legally bantering in my street is the cause of the hold up of our licence.
And this morning I hear that he has some salacious past including drugs and jail or whatnot.
GREAT! Not only did I have to wash out of a bucket for two months when I moved in, I get to live right next door to the spanish version of Al capone! Top banana and cheers espana!
- June 9, 2006 at 11:23 am #62718
thanks again, for your interest in our state of affairs, you certainly have had more than your share of s**t thrown at you!
i can only assume that the 50 or so who have moved in, are on the builders supply, though i can’t confirm that.
We have just e-mailed our lawyer, saying that we are not happy with paying anymore money until we have negotiated a reasonable discount inline with the details mentioned, and even then, we will not complete without the habitation licence in place,
at this stage, unless a lawyer comes along and tells me different, i don’t know what else to do?
- June 9, 2006 at 12:00 pm #62719
No problem. I am genuinely interested in helping others too if possible.
Keep me posted and I hope your lawyer comes up with some promising news for you soon.
Have a look at this article I found. It seems your developers have a bad reputation according to this report. A bit of evidence for you maybe to show your lawyer? I’m sure that one can possibly shame your developers into negotiating somehow or other.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. 😉
- June 9, 2006 at 3:58 pm #62726
that article, not good is it!…… we bought through oceanview, who are now themselves, suing aifos for £20,000,000 for not coming up with the goods, we are part of that claim, also, along with god knows how many other people? Things have got so bad between oceanview and aifos, I’m told they wont even communicate with each other, is this right or another scam? i don’t know?
- June 9, 2006 at 6:36 pm #62732
Are there town houses in this Miraflores as I have been told they have been delayed as well,seem to have been building them a while.
- June 13, 2006 at 12:05 pm #62785
i got a reply from a spanish planning officer today, who said we should not only get a reduction in price equivalent, to the percentage reduction in size, compared to the original contract, but also, we should get compensation for the time it has taken and the trouble and stress, caused by aifos.
same old problem though, how long would it take to get satisfaction out of aifos? the only right solution to not being ‘ripped off’ as far as i am concerned, is to have our big payment , (70% in our case, reduced at completion time.
i think once aifos have your money, you may as well ‘whistle in the wind’ for what good it will do trying to get a fair deal,
i have also e-mailed my spanish lawyer for advise and also mareadicastro, a spanish lawyer that posts on here, but i havn’t had a reply yet,
- June 13, 2006 at 3:00 pm #62787
At least it sounds as though your spanish planning officer has recognised the situation on your behalf , proof to you that your earlier question has been answered sufficiently – you do rightly have a claim!
Whether Aifos will negotiate before you complete – who the hell knows, as you say. They have been unscrupulous in more than one particular case so it appears, and probably owe bucket loads everywhere.
Lets see what your lawyer digs up in terms of negotiating.
My thoughts are with you.
PS Meanwhile my own sorry saga continues – i will post it over in ‘my shocking story’ post…
- June 14, 2006 at 11:35 am #62810
can you believe this?, our lawyer has agreed that aifos have broken the contract on two counts, 1, the size of the apartment and 2, the time delay in finishing it.
they have also said that in a contract we signed, it states that we must complete as soon as the building work is finished, habitation licence or not! and aifos will not negotiate under any circumstances and are threatening to break our contract and keep our £30.000 deposit if we do not complete for ANY reason!
(WHY THE HELL DID OUR LAWYER ADVISE US TO SIGN THIS!!!!!!!!!)
our lawyers say they understand our concerns, and advise us to sue aifos AFTER completion……..fat lot of good that will do!
so, looks like despite being in the right on all counts, we are going to have to sign and hand over money to these , or risk losing everything anyway. What is the point of a lawyer if they can’t protect you against and dodgy contracts???
i despair of the whole thing, crap agents, useless lawyers and the spanish system of letting crooks get away with anything and not giving a toss about it,
- June 14, 2006 at 11:58 am #62811
No I can’t believe it at all David! I know that deposits in spain are non-refundable and hey, now we know why? So they can have you in a corner.
But you are in the right and they in the wrong. Best thing to do is seek another lawyer right NOW. What about maria decastro on this board can she not help you?
What to do next? I would prefer to spend some money getting a fight on board cos for a starter you shouldn’t be forced to sign without the habitation licence anyway, even if you had no problems with your property. As has been warned on this board before!
a) When are they demanding you sign and pay?
Could you say that you are willing to complete on the basis that they give written recognition of the discrepancies. (Your lawyer has already agreed that they broke the contract, well then surely you deserve to complete with at least written confirmation of this?) At least you might have something to later prove your case?
Looks like a case of your lawyer being unscrupulous and bowing down to the developers pressure. How can he be representing YOU here? This case is more evil than I thought.
I would seek another lawyer’s advice ASAP if it was me.
I have sent you a PM David.
- June 14, 2006 at 12:35 pm #62812
If your lawyers are the ones you started with, and who got you into this mess, then you need to get as far away from them as possible.
At the very least I would get a second opinion – I know it costs money, but a lot is at stake.
As far as I know, and I hope one of the lawyers will correct me here if I’m wrong, you can’t be forced to complete without an LFO. It’s against the law, and would be considered an abusive clause in the contract you signed, and therefore null and void if you went to court. But it’s important that you demonstrate before a notary that you are ready to complete, have the funds to do so, and are just waiting for the developer to provide the LFO, otherwise they can claim you just didn’t show up for completion. However, I must stress that I’m not a trained lawyer, so you must check all of this.
- June 14, 2006 at 1:45 pm #62813
you are giving the just the right advice to David. David should get a second opinion, why not.
And again about the famous LFO : as Mark says, if the developer sends your lawyer a letter calling you to come to notary and pay the balance , give him instructions to appear before that notary with the banker’s draft (alternatively, if you are paying with a mortgage, the representative of the bank should appear at the notary to declare that the finance and moneys are ready for the completion).
Doing so the developer will find almost impossible to cancell the contract.
Aifos is very keen on doing this abusive practice , you have to show your teeth (as we say in spain) to this most unprofessional developers.
- June 15, 2006 at 7:38 am #62824
mark, carla, independent,
thanks for your advice on this, yes we have heard from our lawyers our mortgage can be in place as soon as we are required to complete, so aifos can’t get us on that one.
i have found out today, that not only are aifos, forcing us to complete, without the habitation licence, due to our contract, but as soon as we do complete, they are charging us 900 euro’s each for temporary services, untill the habitation licence comes through!!!!!!!!!
it looks like, unless we want to risk losing our £30,000 (and how long would it take us to get it back from aifos?) we have to go ahead without a habitation licence? i know it’s all wrong, i just don’t know if we have a choice, without losing everything?
- June 16, 2006 at 6:49 am #62841
thanks again for your offer of help,
i spoke to the agents, oceanview yesterday, who confirmed what i thought, in that aifos’s conditions stipulated in our contract, that we must complete when building work is finished, with or without the first habitation licence, why our original english solicitors agreed to that, is a mystery? certainly not working in our interest!
so unless we want to risk losing all the money we have put in so far, it looks like we will be forced to complete without the habitation licence, and pay aifos 900 euro’s for water/electric, that they have no right to charge us for, thanks partly to them and partly due to our crap contract!
I have e-mailed Maria, with my woes, but sadly got no reply,
hope your situation is getting somewhere?
- June 16, 2006 at 7:59 am #62843
From another posting by Maria, I believe she has gone to Morocco (??) on business.
- June 16, 2006 at 8:18 am #62845
thanks, that explains it, oh well, lets see if anyone slse has any idea’s on how we can avoid being ‘ripped off’ without losing.
- June 19, 2006 at 2:25 pm #62885
David, did you not seek a second opinion from a different lawyer?
- June 19, 2006 at 10:18 pm #62913
i’ve not contacted another lawyer yet, was waiting to see if i get a response from one here.
the problem is, when the contract was drawn up, it made no mention of only completing when a habitation licence was in place, so thanks to our first solicitors in england, we may be stuffed on that one.
our current spanish solicitors (yes they were advised by the agent, so are we getting the truth?)) have advised us to sue aifos after completion, on the reduction in size and time delay.
our lawyers have told us that aifos have broken the contract on above two issues (let alone forcing us to complete without the habitation licence and making us each pay 900 euro’s for temporary water/gas/electric)) and as such, i would much rather negotiate a reduced final payment, but our lawyers are saying aifos will not negotiate with them and will just take our deposit and re-sell our apartment if we falter on completion,
the law may be on our side, but can it save our deposit or apartment if we try and utilise it?
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