Santander will "price to sell" its real estate portfolio

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This topic contains 167 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Mexberry Mexberry 5 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #56243
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This news that Santander is going to re-appraise its property portfolio and price to sell could have dramatic implications. It’s certainly causing a stir amongst the upper-management of Spain’s real estate sector (including banks, of course). Where Santander leads, the rest follow. If so, expect prices to head south…..

    http://www.elconfidencial.com/en-exclusiva/2011/santander-revisa-valoracion-cartera-inmobiliaria-acelerar-20110530-79373.html

  • #104722
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    My first thoughts were they’d simply drip feed cheaper properties onto the market rather than cut all their asking prices at once. But if they seriously want to liquidate then I guess it could mean an all out “fire sale”.

  • #104723
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Spanish are known for their “Burro” mentality. This has caused them untold grief through out history. However in this case perhaps drip feed would help in not destabalise the market further.
    The drip depends on the size of the tap & the supply to it. We are aware that the supply to the tap is about a million properties.

  • #104725
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Personally, I’ll believe this when I see it and not before. I’ve previously seen statements similar to this and they have simply turned out to be marketing puffery.

    Time will tell.

  • #104726
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    There have been rumours about this event for some time. I will believe it when I see the results. CAM and BBVA tried something similar recently but it failed.
    The reason for that is what the banks deem as ‘priced to sell’ and what investors see as fair value in the current market climate are two different things.

    To invest in this market now, particularly in multiples involves unacceptable risk. So sale prices need to reflect that. Even with drastic reductions I don’t feel there is any appetite for it.
    The world economy is slowing and property is lacklustre almost everywhere.

    Even most clued up holiday home buyers are aware it’s not a good idea. Rents are falling and there is massive oversupply in Spain.
    It will be interesting to see if Santander comes up with anything different.

    If you look at plummeted property values in parts of the USA, particularly auction prices achieved you can see property is a toxic asset.

    The problem for most banks in Spain right now is what to do with their toxic property assets. The government are desperate for private investment in the Caja’s to save their bankruptcy or nationalisation.

    Bob Diamond came over to Spain this week for meeting with Zapatero who tried to convince Barclays to buy a few. The rumour was CAM was attractive to them. However it seems to have fizzled out. Probably when Diamond saw the books! 😯

  • #104727
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “The reason for that is what the banks deem as ‘priced to sell’ and what investors see as fair value in the current market climate are two different things”

    The Banks are well aware of how the market works. Hence my example of a ” Burro” mentality. What they should realise/act upon is that the longer it takes the bigger the problem will get with the non performing loans. Even if the interest is suspended. The bank is losing out on cash discounting i.e. value of money today against the value of it tomorrow & with inflation as it’s current level they are eroding the value of their assets on their books. .

  • #104728
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    The Banks are well aware of how the market works. Hence my example of a ” Burro” mentality. What they should realise/act upon is that the longer it takes the bigger the problem will get with the non performing loans. Even if the interest is suspended. The bank is losing out on cash discounting i.e. value of money today against the value of it tomorrow & with inflation as it’s current level they are eroding the value of their assets on their books. .

    I agree Shakeel, you would think they would be aware of those factors. However Spanish bankers seem to have a different mentality. If you have ever spent hours and days trying to negotiate with them, as I have you come to realise their understanding of market economics is strangely limited.

  • #104730
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan: I know the spanish mentalty to well & will not waste my time talking to them or reasoning with them. The people in senior position’s are not there because of their banking/business accuman. ( by trying to deal with them in the capacity that you mention you are only rubbing their already highly inflated ego )

    They are there due to contacts & do not feel that they are fortunate enough to have had the door opened for them to have the job. On the other hand I cant also blame them as people around them or their senior’s are equally incompetant.

    Further its not only Banks. The Spanish enterprises do not train staff or feel that their staff is is their biggest asset.

  • #104731
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I think the people the banks give you to deal with are in reality not really bankers but property agents employed by the banks.
    They have an impressive position and job title with a nice shiny office and company car but their background is not in financials. They also are not empowered to make any meaningful decisions without tedious consultations with someone else. Even then it takes days to get answers.
    In any case most of the property banks have on their books is uninteresting and at the lower end.
    I had a business plan a few months ago which could have worked had the banks been more flexible at the time with prices. They would not budge. I few months later they did move and slashed values far too late for me.
    Personally now I would not enter this market again for years, perhaps even never again.

  • #104732
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @brianc_li wrote:

    Personally, I’ll believe this when I see it and not before. I’ve previously seen statements similar to this and they have simply turned out to be marketing puffery.
    Time will tell.

    I just love that quote: ……. marketing puffery.
    Made me hoot out loud 😆

    And sort of hits the spot for being so true of so much really.

    Mind you the banks probably turned down Logan’s brilliant proposals above because they thought they were so much …. investor puffery.

    All sorts of… puffery going on, we could rename this site again… Spanish Puffery Insight.

  • #104733
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Personally now I would not enter this market again for years, perhaps even never again.

    We know Logan, we have heard you say it as an add on 100 times or more, which makes one still wonder… why you even bother to visit this site or comment anymore, or why you can’t just focus your malignant interest, one sided negative commentaries and views toward a forum on France where you seem to be much happier living and investing.

  • #104734
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    There is nothing ‘Spanish’ about what is being described here. If anything, it reinforces my overall prejudices against bankers and banks.

    In the US, most banks refuse to re-negotiate mortgages, even with existing, good clients who demonstrate that they can continue to make payments but less than the original mortgage terms. So instead of taking a small loss or delaying the same profit for a few years longer, the banks choose to foreclose, making the home owners homeless and adding yet anther empty, unsaleable house to their now extensive real estate holdings. I don’t know if there is something in the tax laws that favors this scenario, but given all the whining I hear, I doubt that this in any way benefits the bank. And the industry is saying that foreclosures are down this year – based upon the statistics as of April, they’re predicting that only 850,000 homes will be repossessed in 2011. Somebody open a bottle of cava!

  • #104735
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @logan wrote:
    Personally now I would not enter this market again for years, perhaps even never again.

    We know Logan, we have heard you say it as an add on 100 times or more, which makes one still wonder… why you even bother to visit this site or comment anymore, or why you can’t just focus your malignant interest, one sided negative commentaries and views toward a forum on France where you seem to be much happier living and investing.

    😆

    I would love to know what ridiculous offer Logan put forward to the banks at the time! Banks do not turn away investors offers lightly, not when you are talking multiple purchases, not a few months back or now, the market has been bad for a couple of years now. The offer must have been a ridiculous one.
    Have to agree with you Chris, why would someone spend so much time on a forum about Spain with no interest to invest in the country.
    B***sh** is what it is.
    Any one on here is either:

    An estate agent waiting for the market to improve
    A seller waiting to sell
    A buyer/investor praying for the market to drop as low as possible so they can invest in Spain, hence the constant negative comments about Spain from all the investors.

    Only the other day did one of these investors manage to completely sway someone into not purchasing in Spain with ill informed comments about Spain.
    As I have said before anyone coming on here looking for genuine news on Spains property market, take it with a pinch of salt. The only one on the ground finding out stuff first hand is Mark, anyone else has a vested interest.

  • #104736
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I realise what I post on here is negative and a bit repetitive. That is a reflection of current market conditions. The market is stagnant and going nowhere but south.
    You cannot talk up a dead horse or even write any positive new posts.
    Chris McCarthy’s interests lie in convincing buyers it’s a great time to invest in Spanish property. That’s his reason for being and I understand that.
    However I think the way you and others personalise your criticism is unjustified.
    My motives for posting are as I have said before, to try and inform potential buyers of a different prospective to the usual one trotted out by selling agents such as Chris.
    I have probably more experience of investing in this market than some and have a valid view.
    There is little wonder some try to shoot down any contrary message.

  • #104737
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    My motives for posting are as I have said before, to try and inform potential buyers of a different prospective to the usual one trotted out by selling agents such as Chris.

    Why though???!!!
    If you have no interest in investing in Spain, why bother posting on here at all??? I just don’t believe that you are some kind of samaritan trying to save the world from the spanish property market. 🙄

    Does not make sense, surely you can’t be that bored that you are sitting on a forum waiting for updates on a subject you have no interest in at all. Sorry, but the reason I make the remarks I make is because I firmly believe, as many others do, that you have EVERY intention in investing in Spain again and you want the prices to drop even further. The current prices are not yet right for you, so it is in your interest for buyers not to purchase yet to drive the prices down.
    You are on here talking the market down, be it valid or not, because you have a vested interest. Full stop. You can deny it all you like.

  • #104738
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Why do you post on here Jonas? Why are you so obsessed with what I say and snipe at every post It’s more than bizarre.
    No I have no intention whatever of investing in property now. Either in Spain or elsewhere. I have a wide and global portfolio in other market sectors which keeps me busy enough.
    Strange that you think someone could simply be altruistic and want to help others.
    In fact you would have to be off your rocker a little to imagine this forum could influence markets one iota. Grow up man.
    It so happens I use the internet for many things and receive hundreds of e mail contacts daily which I always try to reply to.
    This forum is just one small part of my interest which I have to say is becoming increasingly an irritation. 🙁

  • #104739
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Why do you post on here Jonas? Why are you so obsessed with what I say and snipe at every post It’s more than bizarre.
    No I have no intention whatever of investing in property now. Either in Spain or elsewhere. I have a wide and global portfolio in other market sectors which keeps me busy enough.
    Strange that you think someone could simply be altruistic and want to help others.
    In fact you would have to be off your rocker a little to imagine this forum could influence markets one iota. Grow up man.
    It so happens I use the internet for many things and receive hundreds of e mail contacts daily which I always try to reply to.
    This forum is just one small part of my interest which I have to say is becoming increasingly an irritation. 🙁

    I post on here for the same reason as you, to highlight the crap some people post on here on a daily basis. I have been following this site for months and I am merely replying to your comments as you are mine. You enjoy pointing out the b**sh** the agents post and I enjoy pointing out your b**sh**.
    I don’t have to agree with every thing you say or like it. I have an opinion and will stick by it and am certainly going to post it if I wish as you do.
    You may receive hundreds of emails on a daily basis (yeah right, more like 10 😆 ) but that does not mean your opinion is more valid than anyone elses. The only irritation I find on here is your constant negative views on EVERYTHING, someone only asked you if bars on windows are due to high crime rates in Spain and you did not even bother researching why there are bars on windows in Spain, you jumped straight in there to give out horror stories. Get a life!

  • #104740
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    logan wrote:
    No I have no intention whatever of investing in property now. Either in Spain or elsewhere. I have a wide and global portfolio in other market sectors which keeps me busy enough.
    quote]

    not that busy, you’re on here all day 😆

  • #104741
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well, I have some good news for the sellers. Despite everything, people are still buying in Spain, and for the same reasons as always – the marvellous climate, the ultra-friendly people and it’s no more expensive than anywhere else in Europe.

    My information comes from ground level, not the usual guessing from economists who get it wrong more often than right.

    I’m friendly with a local estate agent, the biggest one around. They celebrate a sale with a bottle of champagne and their champagne fridge is filled up twice a week at this time. A member of staff is at the Notary’s every day, often more than once.

    Their secret? They will not put a property on their books unless it is realistically priced, always much less than the same property advertised with Spanish agents. And they laugh out loud at bank valuations, they are meaningless.

    Apart from that, they use the same ‘dirty’ tricks as all the others, with lots of cash payments and friendly bank officials who will still give mortgages to anyone who comes recommended; for a price, of course.

  • #104744
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    @logan wrote:
    My motives for posting are as I have said before, to try and inform potential buyers of a different prospective to the usual one trotted out by selling agents such as Chris.

    Why though???!!!
    If you have no interest in investing in Spain, why bother posting on here at all??? I just don’t believe that you are some kind of samaritan trying to save the world from the spanish property market. 🙄

    Does not make sense, surely you can’t be that bored that you are sitting on a forum waiting for updates on a subject you have no interest in at all. Sorry, but the reason I make the remarks I make is because I firmly believe, as many others do, that you have EVERY intention in investing in Spain again and you want the prices to drop even further. The current prices are not yet right for you, so it is in your interest for buyers not to purchase yet to drive the prices down.
    You are on here talking the market down, be it valid or not, because you have a vested interest. Full stop. You can deny it all you like.

    This website is called Spanish Property INSIGHT. Logan is giving his side just as you are giving yours. Why be so vitriolic towards him, are you afraid of his comments, thats how it looks to me.

  • #104747
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @badab1ng wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    @logan wrote:
    My motives for posting are as I have said before, to try and inform potential buyers of a different prospective to the usual one trotted out by selling agents such as Chris.

    Why though???!!!
    If you have no interest in investing in Spain, why bother posting on here at all??? I just don’t believe that you are some kind of samaritan trying to save the world from the spanish property market. 🙄

    Does not make sense, surely you can’t be that bored that you are sitting on a forum waiting for updates on a subject you have no interest in at all. Sorry, but the reason I make the remarks I make is because I firmly believe, as many others do, that you have EVERY intention in investing in Spain again and you want the prices to drop even further. The current prices are not yet right for you, so it is in your interest for buyers not to purchase yet to drive the prices down.
    You are on here talking the market down, be it valid or not, because you have a vested interest. Full stop. You can deny it all you like.

    This website is called Spanish Property INSIGHT. Logan is giving his side just as you are giving yours. Why be so vitriolic towards him, are you afraid of his comments, thats how it looks to me.

    The whole gang is out tonight 😆

    You are correct, we are both giving our opinions. That is what forums are for. Logan puts his comments and points across on a regular basis and is certainly not shy about it. Neither am I…. Or is no one on here allowed an opinion unless they are in agreement with the likes of Logan??? 😕

  • #104748
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    What is thename of the estate agent Rocker, I would be interested in having a squint at the web site. Thanks.

  • #104749
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    You are on here talking the market down, be it valid or not, because you have a vested interest. Full stop. You can deny it all you like.

    Everybody has a vested interest, even altruism is a vested interest; it gives those people who are altruistic a good feeling. What’s your vested interest?

    My vested interest is that I’m looking to buy; not as an investment but at the same time I don’t want to find that my circumstances change next year and I’m forced to sell at a loss which I really feel would be the case if forced. So I’m looking for some kind of stability in the market and just cannot see it right now, or for a lower price that will hedge against the falls that I think will happen. Understandably sellers don’t want to sell at less than they think their property is worth so the result right now is that buyers are reluctant to buy and sellers are reluctant to sell (at the right price in both cases) so the market is practically stagnant; except, it would seem, for the agent Rocker has posted about. I too would like to take a look at that website if there is one.

    p.s. Logan, I find your posts quite insightful, please do keep posting. The same goes for those who think they can see the signs of a recovering market, they are all useful in my opinion.

  • #104750
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I would love to know what ridiculous offer Logan put forward to the banks at the time!”
    I had recently put an offer asking price €226 for two bed ( offer €140) €185 for one bed ( offer €115 )

    This was in line with the average going rate in the area. Would my rate be considered ridiculous by the forum users????. My offer was on three properties.

    The Bank never came back with a counter offer !!!!!!!.

  • #104752
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mrpidman wrote:

    What is thename of the estate agent Rocker, I would be interested in having a squint at the web site. Thanks.

    I can hardly do that after what i said about them, but they are active in the Alicante province and advertise extensively.

  • #104753
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    “I would love to know what ridiculous offer Logan put forward to the banks at the time!”
    I had recently put an offer asking price €226 for two bed ( offer €140) €185 for one bed ( offer €115 )

    This was in line with the average going rate in the area. Would my rate be considered ridiculous by the forum users????. My offer was on three properties.

    The Bank never came back with a counter offer !!!!!!!.

    Why even bother going through a bank if their properties were so over priced compared to what was on the market?

  • #104754
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Chris McCarthy’s interests lie in convincing buyers it’s a great time to invest in Spanish property. That’s his reason for being and I understand that.

    I must have misled you somewhere along the line.

    I don’t think I have ever talked in terms of there being a great time to invest – in any property market – let alone the Spanish property market. As it happens I have never believed in, or promoted – investment – in property per se, I don’t see property as a financial investment, or at least in the manner that it is my understanding you and others do.

    I have seen people buy homes in Spain every single week of the past couple of decades, all buy for their own reasons and at their own right time. Investment in my book is a bit of a dirty word really.

    @logan wrote:

    However I think the way you and others personalise your criticism is unjustified.

    I would venture you are being a little over sensitive here, I apologise if you find my own comments to be personal or unjustified, I do believe however that your view is very much one track, one dimensional, a bit save the world evangelical and altogether too altruistic for me, and a bit too much one conclusion – don’t buy a property in Spain, it is financial suicide.

    Funny, because for some people I certainly agree with that, especially people blindly looking for investment, thinking they going to make a quick profit, because on this we both agree they are not, however we have sold a property a day for the past 9 days to people who must somehow be buying for reasons outside your view. Good reasons I would venture, but you won’t have any of that – with your one track approach.

    That would be my hopefully non personal criticism.

    @logan wrote:

    My motives for posting are as I have said before, to try and inform potential buyers of a different prospective to the usual one trotted out by selling agents such as Chris.

    See, there you go… I don’t think that is personal or unjustified criticism by you, jeeze, I take it as instructive and helpful, I wasn’t aware that I was just trotting out stuff that could be linked to my ilk- shame on me for falling into agent ways and speak – there I was thinking I had some insight myself to offer and the occasionally enlightening perspective

    @logan wrote:

    I have probably more experience of investing in this market than some and have a valid view.
    There is little wonder some try to shoot down any contrary message.

    You seem to indeed have some experience a decade or two back, of pitching succesfully for distressed property at such low prices, that you then evidently made a killing, selling on to some unfortunate end users at a much inflated price and fantastic profit. This obviously neither sustained or satisfied you, instead you seem very frustrated to me that somehow you can’t just repeat the trick today because no one wants your pennies. You just can’t understand that, or why the world is simply not bending to your view.

    And that is indeed a valid view and experience.

    Personally I love it that you can’t make the killing of old, I love it that there is no place for you and your ilk in the market at this time, and long may that continue. You see yourself as some smart, sharp, professional investor it seems, well good luck to you, but forgive me if I have a more vulture like view of you.

    Or better still why not exercise your mind, extend your content here, to let us all know exactly what it is you do, do to make so much money and sense of the world out there, help us poor souls rather that simply denounce and criticise us. Give us a bit of your half full glass rather than your half empty one today.

    Also, I think the purpose of a contrary view, is to engage in debate and yes occasionally shoot down the message, if one feels it right to do so. Your message, at your extreme, is very tired, is yes debatable but oh so boring, it is not – in my view – helped by endless Google links to obscure articles, and in depth analysis of the minutiae of economic detail, about which I don’t think you have as good a grasp as you portray.

    But, you know what – you are most certainly entitled to your view – I don’t think for a second myself, that what you or I say will have an iota of an effect on the way things will pan out, if either of us have a grand plan here, then we are just fooling ourselves.

    In fact I do believe that you help the odd person here and there, and a lot of what you say makes real good commonsense to a rock solid number of people. A lot of your posts I have to say are very good.

    The problem is Uncle Logan…

    Is simply that you conclude, so much of what you have to say; with a certitude and finality, that to buy a Spanish property would be an act of lunacy, and you couch this in such a benign, avuncular, altruistic, lecture like manner, you miss the point, that people are buying every single day, for a whole heap of other bloody good reasons of their own.

    And while you waffle on, basically in truth just bemoaning the fact that you can’t make a killing ever again, the real market, the real action and activity, is happening all about us here in Spain, you don’t have a handle on the market, you don’t have a view of the current landscape, you have googlelinkititis and tunnel vision to boot, you are a disease that infects the forum soley to the negative with never any of the good – in my view.

    But what on earth would I know? I wonder where all the old posters on this forum have gone, there used to be a heck of mixed bag and vitality in the debates and differing views really, I used to get my pants smacked good and proper by so many, I miss that really.

    But just once again to make clear, I am not interested in ‘investment’ I am interested in ‘end use’… that’s my whole bag really. Along with the fact that Spain is an awesomely great place to live and be if you are lucky enough to be able to own a property here. That’s my usual sign off!

    That’s all, and once again, I hope I haven’t given offence it was not my intention. I haven’t posted for a while, because I didn’t have much to say, now I have as usual probably said way tooo much!

  • #104755
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Why even bother going through a bank if their properties were so over priced compared to what was on the market? “

    Indeed. I was not there to carry out a routine normal banking transaction. The Bank staff who knew me took the opportunity to try a flog a property. Hence my statement of a banker turning into a estate agent.

  • #104756
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    “Why even bother going through a bank if their properties were so over priced compared to what was on the market? “

    Indeed. I was not there to carry out a routine normal banking transaction. The Bank staff who knew me took the opportunity to try a flog a property. Hence my statement of a banker turning into a estate agent.

    sorry shakeel still don’t get it.

    you went to view several properties through via your bank. they are on sale for 40% more than the equivalent of the market, so you made an offer (that I assume you thought was a bargain or at least fair value) that equates to the the asking prices of other properties in the area.

    Why not simply for one of the other properties and see about getting a reduction on those instead?

    Edit: trying to understand the motivation.

  • #104758
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I suppose my little post is going to be wedged between the lecturers lecturing each other; so be it – and I don’t mind reading the lectures, at least people seem to know what they’re talking about.

    I would argue that if you buy more than one property, you’re an investor, of sorts, you could have bought shares in Iberdrola instead. I own two houses and neither are holiday homes, nor can I cut myself in half, so I’m an investor.

    But I do like the point about ‘investing’ in a country like Spain; for me, it has everything I want, and I’ve had a good look around before buying here. It appears there’s a million of us, living here because we haven’t found anything better and are content to keep on enjoying this country.

    How many friends and family do the million already here encourage to join them? I can count ten whom I have encouraged in some way to make the move already and they are twittering away to their friends . . .

    But it doesn’t do any harm to warn others of the dangers, property wise, and some people on this forum make a good job of it.

  • #104759
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Fuengi: I shall try again. I went to Spain & whilst there I visited my Bank’s branch. The banking Staff said to me that they are selling their repossesed properties. I did not go to Spain or my branch with a view to buying. Rest is what has been posted.

    It was no skin off my nose to visit & see what is on offer & at what price. One only learns from every encounter in life.

  • #104761
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    You seem to indeed have some experience a decade or two back, of pitching succesfully for distressed property at such low prices, that you then evidently made a killing, selling on to some unfortunate end users at a much inflated price and fantastic profit. This obviously neither sustained or satisfied you, instead you seem very frustrated to me that somehow you can’t just repeat the trick today because no one wants your pennies. You just can’t understand that, or why the world is simply not bending to your view.

    And that is indeed a valid view and experience.

    Personally I love it that you can’t make the killing of old, I love it that there is no place for you and your ilk in the market at this time, and long may that continue. You see yourself as some smart, sharp, professional investor it seems, well good luck to you, but forgive me if I have a more vulture like view of you.

    Couldn’t have put it better myself….

    badab1ng: This is why I am so vitriolic towards Logan myself, because I see him as this exactly!

  • #104762
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The trouble with being vitriolic is that it’s a character trait, easily recognisable, just a few words give the game away. It lessens any input to any discussion, negates any argument and is something best avoided.

  • #104763
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    The trouble with being vitriolic is that it’s a character trait, easily recognisable, just a few words give the game away. It lessens any input to any discussion, negates any argument and is something best avoided.

    Oh, there are many on here who are vitriolic in a subtle way. All you need to do is read back past posts on certain posters on here and you can read between the lines. Problem is I am just too honest, what I post is to the point, I don’t need to write between the lines and then lick ar** to avoid criticism, I just say it as I see it. I am just not two faced. And to be honest, being two faced is far worse in my opinion. 😐 Honesty is always the best policy or you get caught out in the end.

  • #104764
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I appreciate what you are saying, and I don’t wish to be unkind, but isn’t it a fact that you are trying to sell your property in Spain and object to the likes of Logan who paint too dark a picture of the Spanish property market?

    Rest assured that Logan’s comments on this tiny forum are interesting but are absolutely irrelevant to the market, exactly like McCarthy’s missives. The market is difficult for a seller at this time, but things will change as things improve; writing like this will let you know that I’m not an economist; I’m as much in the dark as you are.

  • #104765
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I appreciate what you are saying, and I don’t wish to be unkind, but isn’t it a fact that you are trying to sell your property in Spain and object to the likes of Logan who paint too dark a picture of the Spanish property market?

    Rest assured that Logan’s comments on this tiny forum are interesting but are absolutely irrelevant to the market, exactly like McCarthy’s missives. The market is difficult for a seller at this time, but things will change as things improve; writing like this will let you know that I’m not an economist; I’m as much in the dark as you are.

    Hi, no I am not trying to sell my property, I am successfully renting it for holiday rentals and will continue to do so for the next 10 years if necessary. And before you comment, I am renting it legally and paying my due taxes unlike a lot of holiday owners abroad!
    Who knows, I may even keep it and sell it on when I retire as I will have paid it off by then! Sorry, I meant the tourists that are renting it would have paid it off for me 😀
    A well hard earned retirement bonus! But that is quite a few years from now. I like to keep my eye on the market though, as when it does pick up, I may decide to sell, this is why I come on here. So my vested interest in keeping my eyes and ears open so I can sell at the right time without having to give it away.

    The likes of Logan comment on others and comments on the bu**shi* they spill out on here and gets away with it, but as soon as someone calls him one everyone jumps on you.
    I agree with Chris’s views on Logan, he paints too dark a picture of the Spanish property market because he is bitter as he just can’t gain his millions via the Spanish market. Buying a cheap property and selling it on for a massive profit.
    And now he has a sulk on and goes quite for a few days (a very rare thing for him must I add) for attention. Don’t wash with me I’m afraid. As I said, I can read between the lines and Chris’ post has got him spot on really.
    I have even read all your posts Rocker and I don’t wish to be unkind but you have changed your tone in the last few months. A few months back you were also disagreeing and arguing with the likes of Logan, and you still have the odd dig at them in your own subtle way. Be a man and just say it as it is.

  • #104766
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:
    @logan wrote:
    Personally now I would not enter this market again for years, perhaps even never again.

    We know Logan, we have heard you say it as an add on 100 times or more, which makes one still wonder… why you even bother to visit this site or comment anymore, or why you can’t just focus your malignant interest, one sided negative commentaries and views toward a forum on France where you seem to be much happier living and investing.

    😆

    I would love to know what ridiculous offer Logan put forward to the banks at the time! Banks do not turn away investors offers lightly, not when you are talking multiple purchases, not a few months back or now, the market has been bad for a couple of years now. The offer must have been a ridiculous one.
    Have to agree with you Chris, why would someone spend so much time on a forum about Spain with no interest to invest in the country.
    B***sh** is what it is.
    Any one on here is either:

    An estate agent waiting for the market to improve
    A seller waiting to sell
    A buyer/investor praying for the market to drop as low as possible so they can invest in Spain, hence the constant negative comments about Spain from all the investors.

    Only the other day did one of these investors manage to completely sway someone into not purchasing in Spain with ill informed comments about Spain.
    As I have said before anyone coming on here looking for genuine news on Spains property market, take it with a pinch of salt. The only one on the ground finding out stuff first hand is Mark, anyone else has a vested interest.

    from what logan wrote i got the impression he wasn’t to far off the mark thats why the banks when they had finnished trying to play catch up went back to him only for logan to be at the next stage of the relay already.sometimes when you are so slow to realize the starting pistol has sounded you are never going to catch up.

  • #104767
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    Jonas, earlier in this thread, whilst questioning Logan’s motives, you said:
    @jonas wrote:

    Any one on here is either:

    An estate agent waiting for the market to improve
    A seller waiting to sell
    A buyer/investor praying for the market to drop as low as possible so they can invest in Spain, hence the constant negative comments about Spain from all the investors.

    I don’t disagree with you there but now you have said:

    @jonas wrote:

    Hi, no I am not trying to sell my property

    So which of the other two are you?

  • #104768
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas in March wrote:

    As I am now also looking to sell my property, I would be keen to know what other sellers are doing right now.

    @jonas today wrote:

    no I am not trying to sell my property

    @jonas (prophetically?) wrote:

    Honesty is always the best policy or you get caught out in the end.

    😆

    So it looks like Jonas should have added a fourth category:
    A seller who was going to sell but as Logan is right, that the market is dead, it’s best to wait.

  • #104769
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @jonas in March wrote:
    As I am now also looking to sell my property, I would be keen to know what other sellers are doing right now.

    @jonas today wrote:

    no I am not trying to sell my property

    @jonas (prophetically?) wrote:

    Honesty is always the best policy or you get caught out in the end.

    😆

    So it looks like Jonas should have added a fourth category:
    A seller who was going to sell but as Logan is right, that the market is dead, it’s best to wait.

    Charlie

    reading between the lines I think you are spot on 😆 😆

    Richard

  • #104770
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @jonas in March wrote:
    As I am now also looking to sell my property, I would be keen to know what other sellers are doing right now.

    @jonas today wrote:

    no I am not trying to sell my property

    @jonas (prophetically?) wrote:

    Honesty is always the best policy or you get caught out in the end.

    😆

    So it looks like Jonas should have added a fourth category:
    A seller who was going to sell but as Logan is right, that the market is dead, it’s best to wait.

    The zimmer frame gang is out with a force today 😆
    and on the ball by the looks of it, yes actualy, maybe I should have added the fourth category.

    4th category:
    The astute sellers:
    Sellers who don’t want investors like Logan to buy their hard earned property for 50% off the asking price and are being astute by renting so most of their mortgage is being paid off by someone else. And keeping their eye on the market so they can sell when the time is right.

    At least I am honest in that I am on here for my own vested interest unlike others on here who pretend to be a samaritan in the making.
    By the way, If you continue reading the posts I posted back in March you will see that I did say I would go down the rental route, so post it all to give the full picture. As I say honesty is the best policy.

  • #104771
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    @charlie wrote:
    @jonas in March wrote:
    As I am now also looking to sell my property, I would be keen to know what other sellers are doing right now.

    @jonas today wrote:

    no I am not trying to sell my property

    @jonas (prophetically?) wrote:

    Honesty is always the best policy or you get caught out in the end.

    😆

    So it looks like Jonas should have added a fourth category:
    A seller who was going to sell but as Logan is right, that the market is dead, it’s best to wait.

    The zimmer frame gang is out with a force today 😆
    and on the ball by the looks of it, yes actualy, maybe I should have added the fourth category.

    4th category:
    The astute sellers:
    Sellers who don’t want investors like Logan to buy their hard earned property for 50% off the asking price and are being astute by renting so most of their mortgage is being paid off by someone else. And keeping their eye on the market so they can sell when the time is right.

    At least I am honest in that I am on here for my own vested interest unlike others on here who pretend to be a samaritan in the making.

    Coming on here and reading posts from the likes of Logan is what made my mind up to rent long term! Scavengers like Logan who are waiting to pounce on desperate sellers was something I did not want to become a part of. So I went for the successful renting route and if that means there is one less property on the market for people like Logan to make his millions off, then all the better!

  • #104772
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    Perhaps there should be a 5th category of poster. Basically the same as this new 4th category but as seen from an investor’s point of view i.e.

    The astute investor:
    Investors who don’t want sellers like xxxxx to sell their hard earned property for 50% above market value etc. etc.

    I’m not an investor so I’m just guessing, but there does seem to be some symmetry here. It seems to me that category 4 and category 5 are just opposite sides of the same coin.

    Incidentally Jonas, maybe you should be thanking Logan. If it wasn’t for him posting on here, by your own admission, you would not be the astute seller he has turned you into. 😉

  • #104773
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    Perhaps there should be a 5th category of poster. Basically the same as this new 4th category but as seen from an investor’s point of view i.e.

    The astute investor:
    Investors who don’t want sellers like xxxxx to sell their hard earned property for 50% above market value etc. etc.

    I’m not an investor so I’m just guessing, but there does seem to be some symmetry here. It seems to me that category 4 and category 5 are just opposite sides of the same coin.

    Incidentally Jonas, maybe you should be thanking Logan. If it wasn’t for him posting on here, by your own admission, you would not be the astute seller he has turned you into. 😉

    I agree with you!
    I just wish the likes of these astute investors would be honest about their purpose on here.

    And I also actually agree with you on thanking Logan, had I not read in between the lines of all these astute investors I may have got suckered into selling my property for a massive loss due to the panic sites like this can put into sellers instead of realising there are other routes sellers can take.

    Maybe Logan might rear his head again now he has had his ego massaged by everyone. But sometimes the truth can come across as harsh and it will take a few days for him to get over the shock and lick his wounds while he has a sulk. He needs to realise that not everyone on here enjoys his boring and tedious posts and take the criticism like a man as I do every day on here!

  • #104774
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The decision not to sell and to carry on renting out was because Jonas realised he wouldn’t get the price he wanted, purely and simply.
    He could stop “scavengers like Logan who are waiting to pounce on desperate sellers” buying his property just by not reducing his wanted price, so his so-called ‘reasoning’ re. Logan is hogwash. And he accuses Logan of being a b*llshi**er ❓ ❓ :

    Credibility going down with every post I’m afraid, Jonas.

    And what’s with the old-timers/zimmerframe nonsense?
    Not there yet, happily walk the dogs a couple of miles each day without one, but like you – we’ll all be there oneday. Your attempts to be funny are wearing thin. If you must, suggest you try a new tack – humour is something you obviously haven’t mastered yet.

  • #104776
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    And I also actually agree with you on thanking Logan, had I not read in between the lines of all these astute investors I may have got suckered into selling my property for a massive loss due to the panic sites like this can put into sellers instead of realising there are other routes sellers can take.

    Actually you’ve just come up with another reason to thank Logan. He’s been advising all potential buyers to wait and rent in the meantime. Just think of all those potential renters for your property. 😀

    Think you owe him a bottle of vino!

  • #104777
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    And I also actually agree with you on thanking Logan, had I not read in between the lines of all these astute investors I may have got suckered into selling my property for a massive loss due to the panic sites like this can put into sellers instead of realising there are other routes sellers can take.

    Actually you’ve just come up with another reason to thank Logan. He’s been advising all potential buyers to wait and rent in the meantime. Just think of all those potential renters for your property. 😀

    Yeah, nice one Logan 😉
    But I have gone down the holiday rental route, so long term renters don’t really help my situation. And, as a holiday rental, you get to put more expenses down when doing your taxes, and the long term rental market is becoming saturated due to non sale of properties.
    Plus long term renters have so many rights in Spain, once you get them in your property they are a bugger to get out. But it could work for others with unsold properties in Spain.

    I know a lot of people who are going down the rental route now because they can’t sell anyway, even though some are slightly out of pocket with the downfall, if they can stick it out for another 5 years or so, at least they won’t have to sell at a loss. But everyones circumstances are different so it really depends if you can sustain a holiday rental or not. Plus it has to be in a prime location for it to work well.

  • #104778
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    The decision not to sell and to carry on renting out was because Jonas realised he wouldn’t get the price he wanted, purely and simply.
    He could stop “scavengers like Logan who are waiting to pounce on desperate sellers” buying his property just by not reducing his wanted price, so his so-called ‘reasoning’ re. Logan is hogwash. And he accuses Logan of being a b*llshi**er ❓ ❓ :

    You are 100% correct. I couldn’t have put it clearer myself. I decided not to sell as I wouldn’t get the price I wanted, purely and simple.
    Why would I if I don’t have to??? It would be madness to do such a thing, when I can just rent it out and cover 90% of my mortgage and sell in 5 to 10 years time and not spend the rest of my life owing the bank!!!!???

    Why should I reduce my price lower than what I paid for it??? To line the pockets of the likes of Logan, I don’t think so!!!
    And hopefully any other sellers will be as astute as me and try to hang in there.

    So…..your point is??!!!!

  • #104780
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Jonas it’s your choice and psychologically I understand why no one wants to do it. Historically most people keeping their property through the downturns in the property market have made a vice choice but the big problem is that there are so many that don’t have that option and they will ruin people like you their chance to get a “descent” price. In lots of places the rental markets is totally destroyed by people doing the exact same like you. The good thing though for people that want to rent out is that most people are very lazy in how they operate and it’s actually quite easy if you have time to find renters most of the time. Not if you go through a major letting company though. Hard to do it though if you are not living close to your property.

    A big if in this crisis is that Spain can’t hyperdeflate themselves out of this crisis either. Thats why real estate property mostly have been a good hedge in bad times also because you only had to wait a few years until the market was back again. When inflation have picked up the gains in real estate usually picked up 15-30% a year after down turns.

    Japan shows another story though and I think that it’s probably a much more likely scenario because Spain is tied to the euro. Buying now won’t be a horrible decision in the long run but it will take time for the buyers en mass to come back and not just the scandinavians and russians.

    The euro will drop in value towards other currencies except the dollar and that is one reason I’m holding off.

  • #104781
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ardun wrote:

    Jonas it’s your choice and psychologically I understand why no one wants to do it. Historically most people keeping their property through the downturns in the property market have made a vice choice but the big problem is that there are so many that don’t have that option and they will ruin people like you their chance to get a “descent” price. In lots of places the rental markets is totally destroyed by people doing the exact same like you. The good thing though for people that want to rent out is that most people are very lazy in how they operate and it’s actually quite easy if you have time to find renters most of the time. Not if you go through a major letting company though. Hard to do it though if you are not living close to your property.

    I agree with you, a holiday rental will only work if you work at it.
    It has to also be in a prime location as there are so many unsold properties in non prime locations.

    These unsold properties in non prime locations, will probably sit there for years, these are the properties that investors will be able to purchase at huge discounts, now and for years to come.
    However any prime location property owners do not have to sell at a loss as their properties rent so well as holiday rentals, so why should they???

    My point is, are the astute investors being that astute by waiting for years to get the bargain properties?? Because all they will get is the crap no one else wants now at 50% off. Any decent properties in good locations, will just continue to rent until the market stabilizes.

    Another thing for investors to think about.

  • #104783
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I can well understand the frustration of having bought a property near the peak of the market and then finding its value dropping. It hasn’t happened often, but happened to me personally in 1989. I couldn’t believe it at the time, in fact I refused to believe it for quite a while.

    I tried testing the market and found a queue of ‘Logans’ at my door, offering me silly money for my precious house. I was able to keep the house on and its value recovered some five years later.

    Taking all the other financial factors into account, I should probably have sold it at a loss and saved myself five years of uncertainty, but I didn’t think that way at the time. I consoled myself at the time by watching the real big failures during that recession; Maxwell, Walker, the guy who fled to Cyprus and millions of others, who had lost far more than little me and my silly little house.

    I do think Logan adds value to the discussions on this forum.

  • #104784
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I can well understand the frustration of having bought a property near the peak of the market and then finding its value dropping. It hasn’t happened often, but happened to me personally in 1989. I couldn’t believe it at the time, in fact I refused to believe it for quite a while.

    I tried testing the market and found a queue of ‘Logans’ at my door, offering me silly money for my precious house. I was able to keep the house on and its value recovered some five years later.

    Taking all the other financial factors into account, I should probably have sold it at a loss and saved myself five years of uncertainty, but I didn’t think that way at the time. I consoled myself at the time by watching the real big failures during that recession; Maxwell, Walker, the guy who fled to Cyprus and millions of others, who had lost far more than little me and my silly little house.

    I do think Logan adds value to the discussions on this forum.

    Never happened to “me” but my family but we had lots of luck on our side. The worst thing that happened people in Sweden was that they had to sell and park themselves in rental and then when the market picked up again they missed out. Still having their old debts still not paid off. When the market have plumeted it’s offer to the average joe to sit still.

    I’m usually to quick in my selling descisions in whatever field it comes to be it real estate or stocks but I’m usually spot on in when I buy. By quick I mean 2-3 years.

  • #104785
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I can well understand the frustration of having bought a property near the peak of the market and then finding its value dropping. It hasn’t happened often, but happened to me personally in 1989. I couldn’t believe it at the time, in fact I refused to believe it for quite a while.

    I tried testing the market and found a queue of ‘Logans’ at my door, offering me silly money for my precious house. I was able to keep the house on and its value recovered some five years later.

    Taking all the other financial factors into account, I should probably have sold it at a loss and saved myself five years of uncertainty, but I didn’t think that way at the time. I consoled myself at the time by watching the real big failures during that recession; Maxwell, Walker, the guy who fled to Cyprus and millions of others, who had lost far more than little me and my silly little house.

    Ultimately, what you say is true. But would you have sold your property at a loss and then stood to owe the banks for years to come? Now if that would have been the case, you would have spent many more years of uncertainty paying for something you no longer owe. This is something people on here seem to forget, some people would stand to owe the bank so they can’t drop by these levels anyway.

    So if you can sustain it and ride the storm, then you should, or I think you are mad. It is promising to hear that the value of your property recovered some five years later. Sellers should listen to comments like that and think there is light at the end of the tunnel. These sort of posts is what this site needs more often. Suggestions for people who own property in spain and not so one sided geering towards buyers and investors all the time. Lets face it there are a lot more sellers out there at the moment than there are buyers.

    Like any recession, things will get better in the end, you just need to be patient.

  • #104786
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    @Ardun wrote:
    Jonas it’s your choice and psychologically I understand why no one wants to do it. Historically most people keeping their property through the downturns in the property market have made a vice choice but the big problem is that there are so many that don’t have that option and they will ruin people like you their chance to get a “descent” price. In lots of places the rental markets is totally destroyed by people doing the exact same like you. The good thing though for people that want to rent out is that most people are very lazy in how they operate and it’s actually quite easy if you have time to find renters most of the time. Not if you go through a major letting company though. Hard to do it though if you are not living close to your property.

    I agree with you, a holiday rental will only work if you work at it.
    It has to also be in a prime location as there are so many unsold properties in non prime locations.

    These unsold properties in non prime locations, will probably sit there for years, these are the properties that investors will be able to purchase at huge discounts, now and for years to come.
    However any prime location property owners do not have to sell at a loss as their properties rent so well as holiday rentals, so why should they???

    My point is, are the astute investors being that astute by waiting for years to get the bargain properties?? Because all they will get is the crap no one else wants now at 50% off. Any decent properties in good locations, will just continue to rent until the market stabilizes.

    Another thing for investors to think about.

    This is probably one of the biggest lies in the real estate industri if you ask me. Sure when the market has been red hot like it was in Spain the building companies try anything because they believe they will get away with “urbanisations” in the middle of no where for about the same prices. Those properties will be nearly impossible to sell if they don’t drasticly drop their prices.

    If you ask me though it’s much easier to sell the average cheaper apartment 100-200m from the beach instead the one just on it. The people trying to sell the so called “prime” property usually are way off in the valuation and believe the good ole hype that real estate agents fed them because they want their clients to pay more money. Ofcourse the client will pay more if the estate agent says that you can never go wrong with prime estate because it’s so easy to either rent or sell even in bad times. For rental it’s important its easy to get around and have everything nearby but I would say it’s easier to let something 100-200m from the beach for less money then letting something right on the beach for 50-100% more. The russians buyers these days are the ones agents trick into buying the “prime” property. Most other buyers are quite ordinary in their tastes anyhow.

  • #104787
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I know a few people who have withdrawn their properties on sale rather than reduce. Many who have a second home don’t actually have a mortgage or need to sell. Property built since about 2002 will probably never be a bargain…built in undesirable locations, lacking promised facilities and virtually inferior built with cheap materials, some are looking run down already. To get the real bargains one has to be on the spot, not trawling forums and websites.

    Does anyone believe there are serious investors on this forum. I don’t. Although I suppose I could say I have a “global property portfolio” 🙄 A house in Florida, a few terrace houses up t’north and the house I live in 😆 I think there are only 2 major categories of posters on here…dreamers and bullshitters!

  • #104789
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    As a would be buyer, and I need to stress, not an investor. I find the current uncertainty in the market terribly frustrating.

    All I want is to pay the price for a property for which I feel I could sell again for the same price in 6 months if I had to. That is my definition of a fair price.

    The trouble is how do I know what is a fair price? In the UK, Estate Agents almost always advise a seller as to what properties are actually selling for in an area and that is more or less the price for which it gets put on the market.

    Holiday and second homes in Spain just don’t follow that rule. Either sellers are completely ignoring agents advice or the agents are just going along with whatever the seller wants to sell for.

    As a buyer that makes me terribly reluctant to believe that any price is a fair price.

    Here’s a recent experience I had that I hope illustrates this.

    I had seen a property that had been on the market for about three years and during that time had been reduced from €345K to 280K. I still thought it way too much but it was a nice house, my only reservation being that I felt it was a bit far from the town. Consequently I wasn’t in love with it but at the right price I would go for it. I didn’t feel I should pay more than €215K but the seller would only go down to €230K so the deal fell through. It is still on the market.
    A few weeks later another almost identical property, close by, that I hadn’t looked at before, had its asking price reduced from €285K to €190K. Although I took a look, by then I had decided that it really was too far from town and didn’t make an offer. Incidentally, some 3 months later this one still hasn’t sold.

    The upshot is that no matter what the asking price, I’m always going to have the suspicion that it is too much.

    That, in my opinion, is not a healthy market and one that doesn’t help either sellers or buyers. But what to do about it; I have no idea!

    Back in the day, paying 10-20K over the odds wasn’t a problem since 12 months later the value would have risen by that much anyway. Today it is very different and until some stability is restored both buyers and sellers are going to feel that they are being mugged by each other.

  • #104790
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ardun wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    @Ardun wrote:
    Jonas it’s your choice and psychologically I understand why no one wants to do it. Historically most people keeping their property through the downturns in the property market have made a vice choice but the big problem is that there are so many that don’t have that option and they will ruin people like you their chance to get a “descent” price. In lots of places the rental markets is totally destroyed by people doing the exact same like you. The good thing though for people that want to rent out is that most people are very lazy in how they operate and it’s actually quite easy if you have time to find renters most of the time. Not if you go through a major letting company though. Hard to do it though if you are not living close to your property.

    I agree with you, a holiday rental will only work if you work at it.
    It has to also be in a prime location as there are so many unsold properties in non prime locations.

    These unsold properties in non prime locations, will probably sit there for years, these are the properties that investors will be able to purchase at huge discounts, now and for years to come.
    However any prime location property owners do not have to sell at a loss as their properties rent so well as holiday rentals, so why should they???

    My point is, are the astute investors being that astute by waiting for years to get the bargain properties?? Because all they will get is the crap no one else wants now at 50% off. Any decent properties in good locations, will just continue to rent until the market stabilizes.

    Another thing for investors to think about.

    This is probably one of the biggest lies in the real estate industri if you ask me. Sure when the market has been red hot like it was in Spain the building companies try anything because they believe they will get away with “urbanisations” in the middle of no where for about the same prices. Those properties will be nearly impossible to sell if they don’t drasticly drop their prices.

    If you ask me though it’s much easier to sell the average cheaper apartment 100-200m from the beach instead the one just on it. The people trying to sell the so called “prime” property usually are way off in the valuation and believe the good ole hype that real estate agents fed them because they want their clients to pay more money. Ofcourse the client will pay more if the estate agent says that you can never go wrong with prime estate because it’s so easy to either rent or sell even in bad times. For rental it’s important its easy to get around and have everything nearby but I would say it’s easier to let something 100-200m from the beach for less money then letting something right on the beach for 50-100% more. The russians buyers these days are the ones agents trick into buying the “prime” property. Most other buyers are quite ordinary in their tastes anyhow.

    So how come all the crap properties in crap locations are the majority of the ones getting repossesed and not selling? They can’t even rent them!!!
    It is the suckers who fell for the estate agents rubbish that buying in run down locations was a good idea and that they would rent or sell easily in any given market.
    Obviously not as we are seeing right now in this crisis ❗
    At least the prime ones can rent out, the others have no hope! So I disagree with your point completely.
    Location, location, location…..

  • #104791
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    So…..your point is??!!!!

    …..that your statement of: “Coming on here and reading posts from the likes of Logan is what made my mind up to rent long term! Scavengers like Logan who are waiting to pounce on desperate sellers was something I did not want to become a part of” was hogwash.
    On your own admission, your decision to continue renting out was actually because you knew you wouldn’t get your asking price.

    Try and keep up.

  • #104792
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    Back in the day, paying 10-20K over the odds wasn’t a problem since 12 months later the value would have risen by that much anyway. Today it is very different and until some stability is restored both buyers and sellers are going to feel that they are being mugged by each other.

    Nail on the head zoro, pricing is a minefield. But wise words from someone I know/respect always said “If in doubt, back out”, something that’s held me in good stead over the years.

    And re. your recent experience – nothing is a bargain if it’s not what you really want. Being so far from town was obviously not for you, so even if they agreed the price you wanted, would you have been really happy? I think not, you did well to ‘back out’.

  • #104793
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    So how come all the crap properties in crap locations are the majority of the ones getting repossesed and not selling? They can’t even rent them!!!
    It is the suckers who fell for the estate agents rubbish that buying in run down locations was a good idea and that they would rent or sell easily in any given market.
    Obviously not as we are seeing right now in this crisis ❗
    At least the prime ones can rent out, the others have no hope! So I disagree with your point completely.
    Location, location, location…..

    Theres a huge difference between being located in the middle of nowhere and 200-300m from the “prime” spots though.

  • #104794
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    So…..your point is??!!!!

    …..that your statement of: “Coming on here and reading posts from the likes of Logan is what made my mind up to rent long term! Scavengers like Logan who are waiting to pounce on desperate sellers was something I did not want to become a part of” was hogwash.
    On your own admission, your decision to continue renting out was actually because you knew you wouldn’t get your asking price.

    Try and keep up.

    Correct. That is normally the reason people rent out their properties in a recession 🙄
    I could have reduced my asking price if I wanted to, and not made a loss, I just refused to, I probably would have sold it as it is in a prime location at a knock down price, but I didn’t want to because I didn’t want people like Logan to make a raking at my expense. I would rather hang in there myself, rent and sell in a few years time. Logans and other posters comments just helped me realise that unless you are a desperate seller, don’t sell right now! The same as if you are not in a hurry, don’t buy right now! So I still don’t get your point. I stand by all that I have said, completely. No properties will sell right now unless they are at a bargain price, but the bargain prices are different depending on where your property is based. Hence my decision to rent 🙄 Gosh you are hard work!
    I think you are the one who needs to keep up, it only took you the best part of three hours to come back with that one!

  • #104795
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ardun wrote:

    @jonas wrote:

    So how come all the crap properties in crap locations are the majority of the ones getting repossesed and not selling? They can’t even rent them!!!
    It is the suckers who fell for the estate agents rubbish that buying in run down locations was a good idea and that they would rent or sell easily in any given market.
    Obviously not as we are seeing right now in this crisis ❗
    At least the prime ones can rent out, the others have no hope! So I disagree with your point completely.
    Location, location, location…..

    Theres a huge difference between being located in the middle of nowhere and 200-300m from the “prime” spots though.

    I agree, I never said that being located 200-300m from the prime spot is a crap location, as it isn’t.
    My own property is not a front liner, but is in an excellent location within walking distance to everything, so still a prime location. This is why it rents so easily and I am fully booked for this summer and part of 2012 summer! 😀

  • #104796
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    Charlie – yes, I was lucky enough not to have my offer accepted.

  • #104797
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    As a would be buyer, and I need to stress, not an investor. I find the current uncertainty in the market terribly frustrating.

    All I want is to pay the price for a property for which I feel I could sell again for the same price in 6 months if I had to. That is my definition of a fair price.

    The trouble is how do I know what is a fair price? In the UK, Estate Agents almost always advise a seller as to what properties are actually selling for in an area and that is more or less the price for which it gets put on the market.

    Holiday and second homes in Spain just don’t follow that rule. Either sellers are completely ignoring agents advice or the agents are just going along with whatever the seller wants to sell for.

    As a buyer that makes me terribly reluctant to believe that any price is a fair price.

    Here’s a recent experience I had that I hope illustrates this.

    I had seen a property that had been on the market for about three years and during that time had been reduced from €345K to 280K. I still thought it way too much but it was a nice house, my only reservation being that I felt it was a bit far from the town. Consequently I wasn’t in love with it but at the right price I would go for it. I didn’t feel I should pay more than €215K but the seller would only go down to €230K so the deal fell through. It is still on the market.
    A few weeks later another almost identical property, close by, that I hadn’t looked at before, had its asking price reduced from €285K to €190K. Although I took a look, by then I had decided that it really was too far from town and didn’t make an offer. Incidentally, some 3 months later this one still hasn’t sold.

    The upshot is that no matter what the asking price, I’m always going to have the suspicion that it is too much.

    That, in my opinion, is not a healthy market and one that doesn’t help either sellers or buyers. But what to do about it; I have no idea!

    Back in the day, paying 10-20K over the odds wasn’t a problem since 12 months later the value would have risen by that much anyway. Today it is very different and until some stability is restored both buyers and sellers are going to feel that they are being mugged by each other.

    To be honest after reading your post I don’t know what is worst, being a seller waiting for the market to improve or being a buyer waiting for the market to drop.
    It must be so frustrating for buyers also sitting around for years on end waiting to purchase.
    I don’t know who this situation is more frustrating for 😕
    When you are buying or selling one day feels like a week! I know when I was a buyer myself, waiting to find the right property is one thing, but waiting for a market to stabilize could take years. You certainly also have a long wait ahead of you…

  • #104798
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    waiting for a market to stabilize could take years. You certainly also have a long wait ahead of you…

    Actually it’s not so daunting, it’s a holiday home I’m looking for so if I don’t find the right one I just keep renting, I’ll be quids in and I can always console myself by spending the money on women, fast cars and boats. Actually, scrub the women option – my wife wouldn’t allow it. 😆

  • #104800
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree though with whoever mentioned the discrepancies in prices being a huge problem. Probably puts of a lot of buyers off just because the uncertainty. In a normal transparent market this is never a huge problem. Unluckily Spains housing market have never worked like this.

    One property may be a steal at a certain price but it looks fishy when a neighbouring identical apartment is for sale for 100% or more. Ofcourse you can use it as an argument for why this apartment would be a steal but what will the client think? Normaly the market doesn’t behave in that way. Coming down to look at properties not used to Spain doesn’t make it easier.

    Some properties for sale have prices that haven’t been changed since 2007. 😆

  • #104802
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    waiting for a market to stabilize could take years. You certainly also have a long wait ahead of you…

    Actually it’s not so daunting, it’s a holiday home I’m looking for so if I don’t find the right one I just keep renting, I’ll be quids in and I can always console myself by spending the money on women, fast cars and boats. Actually, scrub the women option – my wife wouldn’t allow it. 😆

    Well, at least it’s only a holiday home and not a home to live in.
    And at least you will have plenty of choice of rentals!
    It could be years from now until things do settle down and you know you are paying the right price, so just as well you aren’t in a hurry!
    I do feel for those who have been on the look out for a couple of years now and still there are no signs of the bottom of the market, that must be such a frustrating position to be in. Just as bad as a seller waiting to sell. Good luck and I hope you find your dream holiday home 🙂

  • #104803
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    @zoro wrote:
    @jonas wrote:
    waiting for a market to stabilize could take years. You certainly also have a long wait ahead of you…

    Actually it’s not so daunting, it’s a holiday home I’m looking for so if I don’t find the right one I just keep renting, I’ll be quids in and I can always console myself by spending the money on women, fast cars and boats. Actually, scrub the women option – my wife wouldn’t allow it. 😆

    Well, at least it’s only a holiday home and not a home to live in.
    And at least you will have plenty of choice of rentals!
    It could be years from now until things do settle down and you know you are paying the right price, so just as well you aren’t in a hurry!
    I do feel for those who have been on the look out for a couple of years now and still there are no signs of the bottom of the market, that must be such a frustrating position to be in. Just as bad as a seller waiting to sell. Good luck and I hope you find your dream holiday home 🙂

    i have been looking for awhile now and the most frustrating thing is watching villas go at 40% of peak price when the pound has devalued by as much and they are being bought by those from the euro currancey using countries,i think if the pound was still where it was the spainish market would be in a stronger place.that said i would rather be waiting for the pound to climb as a buyer than waiting for the bottom to be reached and to see some growth as a buyer

  • #104804
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    i think if the pound was still where it was the spainish market would be in a stronger place.that said i would rather be waiting for the pound to climb as a buyer than waiting for the bottom to be reached and to see some growth as a buyer

    I agree with you. Those two factors (the bottom of the market and a weak pound) are closely interlinked since the British are/were such big players in the market. I am resident in the UK with a GBP income, therefore as a GBP buyer, buying right now exposes me to a double whammy if prices in Euros go down AND, as I think is likely at current rates, the pound recovers some ground against the Euro

    Either one of these risks I would happily take in my stride but it is the spectre of both that make it so frustrating. Everything I see and read tells me to wait but as I’ve said so often I’m not an investor so in the end it is a question of how much I want it. I will at least be going in to it with a degree of realism and it always makes me smile when I see ads, saying of a property for sale “great investment potential”.

  • #104805
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    @dartboy wrote:
    i think if the pound was still where it was the spainish market would be in a stronger place.that said i would rather be waiting for the pound to climb as a buyer than waiting for the bottom to be reached and to see some growth as a buyer

    I agree with you. Those two factors (the bottom of the market and a weak pound) are closely interlinked since the British are/were such big players in the market. I am resident in the UK with a GBP income, therefore as a GBP buyer, buying right now exposes me to a double whammy if prices in Euros go down AND, as I think is likely at current rates, the pound recovers some ground against the Euro

    Either one of these risks I would happily take in my stride but it is the spectre of both that make it so frustrating. Everything I see and read tells me to wait but as I’ve said so often I’m not an investor so in the end it is a question of how much I want it. I will at least be going in to it with a degree of realism and it always makes me smile when I see ads, saying of a property for sale “great investment potential”.

    I am not an investor either although i do have property in the uk that i rent out i am purely looking for a place for me and my family to enjoy and i am not even that fussy,i am a ceramic tiler by trade so i would even take on something others would shy away from because of outdated tiling.In 2 weeks with a bit of hard work i could have any place i buy looking clean and modern,all these great investment oppertunites you see might look good to the germans who have been looking and can see a discount from the peak.
    i will continue to rent and enjoy spain that way just been to rhodes for kids halfterm and the place is dying,due to go to moriara in 7 weeks and whilst there will get a better idea of what is happening on the ground.

  • #104806
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi dartboy – just to say am surprised re. your comment regarding Rhodes. I live on Crete between two small beach-side villages and both are buzzing, am surprised considering we’re only just into June. Beaches and restaurants are busy, admittedly mainly with adult tourists. Perhaps Rhodes was too far for a half-term destination for families with children?
    Will be interesting to see how the normally-busy Summer pans out, many restaurants/hotels must be holding their breath, but here at least it seems so far so good.

  • #104807
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    I think you are the one who needs to keep up, it only took you the best part of three hours to come back with that one!

    Blimey Jonas, you’re calculating the time between my posts? If you must know, I was trying to get the bar-by fired up. 😆

  • #104809
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Perhaps Rhodes was too far for a half-term destination for families with children?

    This is one good thing about Spain, the short flight between the uk and Spain, not many places beat it with the good weather you get in Spain. I have children and even a 2 hour flight is too long for them!

  • #104811
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Hi dartboy – just to say am surprised re. your comment regarding Rhodes. I live on Crete between two small beach-side villages and both are buzzing, am surprised considering we’re only just into June. Beaches and restaurants are busy, admittedly mainly with adult tourists. Perhaps Rhodes was too far for a half-term destination for families with children?
    Will be interesting to see how the normally-busy Summer pans out, many restaurants/hotels must be holding their breath, but here at least it seems so far so good.

    there are lots of tourists there but most hotels are now all inclusive and its killling all the restuarants,18 to 30 no longer go to falaraki and i was told by someone who was there and lives in cypres that the same is happening there and the restuarant owners from lindos and paphos have been demonstrating about it.we stayed at the new holiday village and apart from another couple of big hotels the area outside the village was prity run down

  • #104812
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    @charlie wrote:
    Perhaps Rhodes was too far for a half-term destination for families with children?

    This is one good thing about Spain, the short flight between the uk and Spain, not many places beat it with the good weather you get in Spain. I have children and even a 2 hour flight is too long for them!

    The good weather in spain seems to be like the property market,i have friends who live in murcia and they have said its been a very long wet winter other friends went out for easter and said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever

  • #104815
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Well, I’m not an investor. I just want to buy a decent place in Barcelona, to live part-time. Maybe I chose the wrong site.

    Interestingly, what I guard against as a buyer seems prevalent here among investors: Allowing emotions to overtake logic in the decision-making process.

    Sadly, I see investors as being major part of the global economic problems. Who among you would have been satisfied with reasonable and sustainable profits or gains – say between 4 to 6% above inflation? I’m guessing none.

    So continue to go for the big profits, continue to focus upon the next quarter (instead of long term stability, sustainability and modest gains) and continue to whine when it all collapses, and continue to deny that those profits never could have happened without a flood of money that never should have been lent.

  • #104816
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    @charlie wrote:
    Perhaps Rhodes was too far for a half-term destination for families with children?

    This is one good thing about Spain, the short flight between the uk and Spain, not many places beat it with the good weather you get in Spain. I have children and even a 2 hour flight is too long for them!

    The good weather in spain seems to be like the property market,i have friends who live in murcia and they have said its been a very long wet winter other friends went out for easter and said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever

    I have heard it all now, people on this site are even putting down the spanish weather 😆

    Come on please….. you can’t beat the mediterranean weather… maybe a couple of rainy days here and there, but the whole world knows Spain normally has fantastic weather. This is the one thing you certainly will not win an argument against when it comes to Spain. Good try though 😉

  • #104817
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The good weather in spain seems to be like the property market,i have friends who live in murcia and they have said its been a very long wet winter other friends went out for easter and said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever[/quote]

    I have heard it all now, people on this site are even putting down the spanish weather 😆

    Come on please….. you can’t beat the mediterranean weather… maybe a couple of rainy days here and there, but the whole world knows Spain normally has fantastic weather. This is the one thing you certainly will not win an argument against when it comes to Spain. Good try though :wink:[/quote]
    wasn’t trying to win an argument or start one i was just stating what my friends have told me ,looking on the eye on spain site their is even a blog post titled rain rain go away.i have just returned from rhodes where apparently it hardley ever rains this time of year but we had thunder lightening and torrential rain at times.Maybe the further south you go the less likely you are to see the bad weather but the costa del sol isn’t the be all and end all of spain,it is a big country and if you want to believe it or not the weather in the last couple of years has been wetter than normal,just as the uk seems to have been dryer maybe the elnino effect or what ever but its a fact.

  • #104818
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    Well, I’m not an investor. I just want to buy a decent place in Barcelona, to live part-time. Maybe I chose the wrong site.

    Interestingly, what I guard against as a buyer seems prevalent here among investors: Allowing emotions to overtake logic in the decision-making process.

    Anyone who buys property is making an investment of sort, whether they like it or not. They may not be planning to sell at a vast profit and they may not be planning on renting it out, but they are still making an investment in something. Unless you hide your money under the bed, wherever you put your money is some kind of investment. There is always a risk and there is always a reward or a penalty.

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    Sadly, I see investors as being major part of the global economic problems. Who among you would have been satisfied with reasonable and sustainable profits or gains – say between 4 to 6% above inflation? I’m guessing none.

    So continue to go for the big profits, continue to focus upon the next quarter (instead of long term stability, sustainability and modest gains) and continue to whine when it all collapses, and continue to deny that those profits never could have happened without a flood of money that never should have been lent.

    If you could get long term net gains of between 4 and 6% above inflation then I suspect most investors would bite your hand off.

    However I agree with what I think you saying. Generally in Spain and the UK people have been encouraged to place their money in owning property with the intention of renting it out and/or releasing equity, when it would probably be better all round if they invested more money elsewhere, such as in funds and companies. In other words, it would be better if they invested their money in companies that might employ their children, rather than condemn their children to either renting properties off them or having to take out 40 year mortgages in order to afford their own place.

    However I think the fault really lies with governments that make it fiscally more attractive to invest heavily in property rather than in funds. In Spain some of the tax rebates on owning property have now been removed so maybe things will change a bit. In the UK Gordon Brown famously placed more tax on pension funds, so people were forced to look to property instead. It would be good if the current UK government could reverse the damage.

  • #104819
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It is a fact that the past 2 or 3 winters have been cold and wet. One only needs to look at historical data or as is said check out the living in Spain forums. I was in marbella early march, it rained 4 days out of five we were there. Historically cádiz gets more rain than manchester. Undoubtedly Spain has hotter weather than the UK but living in 30C to 40C temperatures is not ideal in July and August either. I have been in Spain when some xmas days have been around 21C but the bad ones outweigh the good ones. Spanish houses are also much colder than British ones too.

    http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25707&hilit=weather

  • #104820
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    It is true, particularly since October last year, it just doesn’t seem to have stopped raining, I know this as a fair weather golfer and you would not believe how many days were rained off across the months, I saw far better weather in April in the UK – was just lovely!

  • #104822
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    Back on topic…

    I am to start blogging soon, so I suppose you will be rid of me at last, cos I don’t think I can comment here and blog there.

    But I am also looking at doing some copy for an article on Bank Repossessions, and what I was about to say was…

    Santander or any bank can do what it likes to market and sell its portfolio, either “price to sell” or turn its managers into de facto agents, it won’t matter – they can’t win!

    I think it was Katy pointed out earlier, how people who had bought pre 2002 were on the best ticket.

    And this is my point re bank repossessions and maybe goes someway to explaining Shakeel’s experience with his banks offer.

    The fact is, we all imagine or think of a Bank Repo to be something that is at an amazing knock down, sell off price, should be the lowest cost buy property in the market. But it isn’t, not by a long way. Compare the scenarios…

    Bank – it has property priced at the peak of the boom, with mortgages over 70 – 110%, with prices that have now fallen 30 -50%, generally it is not the best stock / product to own, and often is in very poor condition or ill managed projects. The only thing it has going for it, is the emotive expression Bank Repo, its gotta be a deal right?

    Wrong:

    Private Vendors – Especially of the pre 2002 order, almost none of them needed or took out a mortgage and by now, a lot of them, most of them don’t have a mortgage on their property. They bought pre the boom in prices. If they bought in Sterling they are ‘quids in’ and happy as larry having bought at 1:50 to the £, now they can sell and convert at 1:10 back to the £. And mostly they have bought in attractive, well positioned and managed projects, that are fully occupied.

    Seems to me, the Private can decide for himself if he wants to sell, he goes with a current market price and will sell.

    The bank, even with their intentions to dress up their properties with a priced to sell banner, will be going nowhere fast.

    They just can’t go that low, not yet anyway, not for another few years of sitting on the books getting write downs.

    The private vendor is king today and a lot of the old misconceptions are out of the window. I wouldn’t touch 98% of so called bank repos with a barge pole, and even then, I would only do it on exceptional property with 100% finance.

    Someone else said they would like to know they could sell on in 6 months if they had to, well I would prefer to look at one year, but even you buy a sexed up Bank Repo, well am sorry, there is a reason the bank is now the owner, and why it is struggling to sell, and if you buy their problem, which used to be someone else’s problem, then it is not going to be something you can sell in short order.

    The banks don’t have the best buys they have the worst. The private vendors have it all at their feet.

    The question is… do they want to sell, or do they want to wait, my experience tells me that 85% of them at least will wait whether 1 – 5 years, they simply will not sell.

    This leaves an interesting market, for those who want to buy – a home either permanent or holiday, that they will enjoy and reward themselves with, from folk who for their own reasons find it acceptable to sell today. There should be emotion in all of this, but it should be the best emotions and reasons to buy.

    Not be following a bank repo pitch that is for sure, keep your logic and your wits, but let emotion run when you are certain you have a good buy, and don’t wait for ever, you know the saying about time waits for no man.

    And if you that worried about the exchange rate, take advantage of some incredible mortgage rates and finance till you want to get more Euros for your cash.

  • #104823
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    Back on topic…

    I am to start blogging soon, so I suppose you will be rid of me at last, cos I don’t think I can comment here and blog there.

    But I am also looking at doing some copy for an article on Bank Repossessions, and what I was about to say was…

    Santander or any bank can do what it likes to market and sell its portfolio, either “price to sell” or turn its managers into de facto agents, it won’t matter – they can’t win!

    I think it was Katy pointed out earlier, how people who had bought pre 2002 were on the best ticket.

    And this is my point re bank repossessions and maybe goes someway to explaining Shakeel’s experience with his banks offer.

    The fact is, we all imagine or think of a Bank Repo to be something that is at an amazing knock down, sell off price, should be the lowest cost buy property in the market. But it isn’t, not by a long way. Compare the scenarios…

    Bank – it has property priced at the peak of the boom, with mortgages over 70 – 110%, with prices that have now fallen 30 -50%, generally it is not the best stock / product to own, and often is in very poor condition or ill managed projects. The only thing it has going for it, is the emotive expression Bank Repo, its gotta be a deal right?

    Wrong:

    Private Vendors – Especially of the pre 2002 order, almost none of them needed or took out a mortgage and by now, a lot of them, most of them don’t have a mortgage on their property. They bought pre the boom in prices. If they bought in Sterling they are ‘quids in’ and happy as larry having bought at 1:50 to the £, now they can sell and convert at 1:10 back to the £. And mostly they have bought in attractive, well positioned and managed projects, that are fully occupied.

    Seems to me, the Private can decide for himself if he wants to sell, he goes with a current market price and will sell.

    The bank, even with their intentions to dress up their properties with a priced to sell banner, will be going nowhere fast.

    They just can’t go that low, not yet anyway, not for another few years of sitting on the books getting write downs.

    The private vendor is king today and a lot of the old misconceptions are out of the window. I wouldn’t touch 98% of so called bank repos with a barge pole, and even then, I would only do it on exceptional property with 100% finance.

    Someone else said they would like to know they could sell on in 6 months if they had to, well I would prefer to look at one year, but even you buy a sexed up Bank Repo, well am sorry, there is a reason the bank is now the owner, and why it is struggling to sell, and if you buy their problem, which used to be someone else’s problem, then it is not going to be something you can sell in short order.

    The banks don’t have the best buys they have the worst. The private vendors have it all at their feet.

    The question is… do they want to sell, or do they want to wait, my experience tells me that 85% of them at least will wait whether 1 – 5 years, they simply will not sell.

    This leaves an interesting market, for those who want to buy – a home either permanent or holiday, that they will enjoy and reward themselves with, from folk who for their own reasons find it acceptable to sell today. There should be emotion in all of this, but it should be the best emotions and reasons to buy.

    Not be following a bank repo pitch that is for sure, keep your logic and your wits, but let emotion run when you are certain you have a good buy, and don’t wait for ever, you know the saying about time waits for no man.

    And if you that worried about the exchange rate, take advantage of some incredible mortgage rates and finance till you want to get more Euros for your cash.

    i was right with you until the last bit, isn’t the reason we are so far in the shit now because everyone took advantage of incredible mortgage rates and finance.Do you not think mortgage rates will rise.i’ll wait and pay a few more euro’s on initial purchase than jump in now and have a bad exchange rate with the posibility of rate rises making it worse for me.

  • #104824
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I don’t know if the mind plays tricks but looking back the CDS winters were warmer. I have flashbacks of lunches on the beach in January and searching for a shady spot, playing golf where a member would always joke at the first tee that we have a minutes silence for the poor buggers back home in the UK winter 😆 Anyway enough of that or the “serious” investors will be accusing me of marbella waffling 🙄

    Prices are difficult to work out. Don’t bother with the banks and new build, they are not bargains. Don’t use Kyero, lot of crap on there. Beware if you buy a property from a spaniard you will have to spend a lot more money bringing it up to scratch, they are the experts in boggit and toggit! Best bargains are from British who bought before 2002 when the exchange rate was high. Choose a location before price, some look like bargains but it’s a bit like comparing Tower hamlets with knightsbridge! Real bargains don’t get on websites, the agent who has them will have tipped off their clients.

  • #104825
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    It is a fact that the past 2 or 3 winters have been cold and wet. One only needs to look at historical data or as is said check out the living in Spain forums. I was in marbella early march, it rained 4 days out of five we were there. Historically cádiz gets more rain than manchester. Undoubtedly Spain has hotter weather than the UK but living in 30C to 40C temperatures is not ideal in July and August either. I have been in Spain when some xmas days have been around 21C but the bad ones outweigh the good ones. Spanish houses are also much colder than British ones too.

    http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25707&hilit=weather

    Well, I have lived in both countries and you cannot even begin to compare the weather in both countries, to be honest it is quite laughable really that anyone is even trying to compare the uk weather with the spanish weather.
    I now live in the uk and the weather sucks full stop! Actually, my whole life has been split between the two countries.
    You get about two months of really good weather counting the whole year in the uk. And I live in the south east where there is supposedly more sun than in the north.
    This is exactly what I mean about people on this forum. As soon as someone highlights a positive about Spain, ie, me mentioning the good weather, everyone can’t wait to jump on you and be negative about it.
    So is there not one good thing Spain has to offer??
    Not even the weather now it would appear! 🙄
    So anyone looking to purchase in Spain, don’t bother cause according to this lot, you don’t even get the good weather anymore.
    Laughable really 😆

  • #104826
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    It is a fact that the past 2 or 3 winters have been cold and wet. One only needs to look at historical data or as is said check out the living in Spain forums. I was in marbella early march, it rained 4 days out of five we were there. Historically cádiz gets more rain than manchester. Undoubtedly Spain has hotter weather than the UK but living in 30C to 40C temperatures is not ideal in July and August either. I have been in Spain when some xmas days have been around 21C but the bad ones outweigh the good ones. Spanish houses are also much colder than British ones too.

    http://www.andalucia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25707&hilit=weather

    Well, I have lived in both countries and you cannot even begin to compare the weather in both countries, to be honest it is quite laughable really that anyone is even trying to compare the uk weather with the spanish weather.
    I now live in the uk and the weather sucks full stop! Actually, my whole life has been split between the two countries.
    You get about two months of really good weather counting the whole year in the uk. And I live in the south east where there is supposedly more sun than in the north.
    This is exactly what I mean about people on this forum. As soon as someone highlights a positive about Spain, ie, me mentioning the good weather, everyone can’t wait to jump on you and be negative about it.
    So is there not one good thing Spain has to offer??
    Not even the weather now it would appear! 🙄
    So anyone looking to purchase in Spain, don’t bother cause according to this lot, you don’t even get the good weather anymore.
    Laughable really 😆

    you really are a total arse we are not being negative just stating facts winter in spain in recent years has been wetter than previously recorded which is realistic its not the wall to wall sunshine you would have people believe so you can off load the property which for some reason you wanted to sell which i can’t understand as its such a great place with no negatives,i am looking to buy in spain and if all things were negative i wouldn’t be i love the diverse senery ,the food, the friendly nature of the people, and as i ride off road motorcycles for a bit of fun i welcome a bit of rain from time to time as it makes it a little more technical trying to stay on two wheels.

  • #104827
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I can well understand the frustration of having bought a property near the peak of the market and then finding its value dropping. It hasn’t happened often, but happened to me personally in 1989. I couldn’t believe it at the time, in fact I refused to believe it for quite a while.

    I tried testing the market and found a queue of ‘Logans’ at my door, offering me silly money for my precious house. I was able to keep the house on and its value recovered some five years later.

    Taking all the other financial factors into account, I should probably have sold it at a loss and saved myself five years of uncertainty, but I didn’t think that way at the time. I consoled myself at the time by watching the real big failures during that recession; Maxwell, Walker, the guy who fled to Cyprus and millions of others, who had lost far more than little me and my silly little house.

    Five years? Adjusted for inflation a property bought in 1989 would not have returned to its 1989 valuation until 2001. I presume you had almost paid off the mortgage by then?

  • #104828
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    @jonas wrote:
    @charlie wrote:
    Perhaps Rhodes was too far for a half-term destination for families with children?

    This is one good thing about Spain, the short flight between the uk and Spain, not many places beat it with the good weather you get in Spain. I have children and even a 2 hour flight is too long for them!

    …… said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever

    sounds pretty negative to me….. I wouldn’t worry too much, I don’t think Spain is quite the north pole yet.
    But you just couldn’t resist turning a positive into a negative could you, that is my point and what I mean about posters on this forum, couldn’t your reply have been: “Yes, that is the great thing about Spain, good weather and a short flight away”…. 🙄

  • #104829
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    I can well understand the frustration of having bought a property near the peak of the market and then finding its value dropping. It hasn’t happened often, but happened to me personally in 1989. I couldn’t believe it at the time, in fact I refused to believe it for quite a while.

    I tried testing the market and found a queue of ‘Logans’ at my door, offering me silly money for my precious house. I was able to keep the house on and its value recovered some five years later.

    Taking all the other financial factors into account, I should probably have sold it at a loss and saved myself five years of uncertainty, but I didn’t think that way at the time. I consoled myself at the time by watching the real big failures during that recession; Maxwell, Walker, the guy who fled to Cyprus and millions of others, who had lost far more than little me and my silly little house.

    Five years? Adjusted for inflation a property bought in 1989 would not have returned to its 1989 valuation until 2001. I presume you had almost paid off the mortgage by then?

    ….and there goes another one…lets knock another positive post… 🙄

  • #104831
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    …… said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever[/quote]

    sounds pretty negative to me….. I wouldn’t worry too much, I don’t think Spain is quite the north pole yet.
    But you just couldn’t resist turning a positive into a negative could you, that is my point and what I mean about posters on this forum, couldn’t your reply have been: “Yes, that is the great thing about Spain, good weather and a short flight away”…. :roll:[/quote]

    its only negative to you as you would rather bury your head and talk things up to others its just the truth,but you are right its still only a short flight away.But you watch someone now come on and be negative and say yes but a family of 4 can now drive out cheaper than they can fly and with fuel prices rising all the time soon it will be too expensive to do that to 😆
    But seriously who really cares what the weather is like at easter as the summer is when all the tourists are there spending their money and keeping the economy afloat and summer is always good it only rained once in the 3 weeks i was there last year and i hope when i come out in 7 weeks it will be roasting otherwise i might sue you for false advertising 😆 8)

  • #104832
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    …… said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever

    sounds pretty negative to me….. I wouldn’t worry too much, I don’t think Spain is quite the north pole yet.
    But you just couldn’t resist turning a positive into a negative could you, that is my point and what I mean about posters on this forum, couldn’t your reply have been: “Yes, that is the great thing about Spain, good weather and a short flight away”…. :roll:[/quote]

    its only negative to you as you would rather bury your head and talk things up to others its just the truth,but you are right its still only a short flight away.But you watch someone now come on and be negative and say yes but a family of 4 can now drive out cheaper than they can fly and with fuel prices rising all the time soon it will be too expensive to do that to 😆
    But seriously who really cares what the weather is like at easter as the summer is when all the tourists are there spending their money and keeping the economy afloat and summer is always good it only rained once in the 3 weeks i was there last year and i hope when i come out in 7 weeks it will be roasting otherwise i might sue you for false advertising 😆 8)[/quote]

    To be honest I wasn’t referring to the winter period anyway or easter for that matter, it is obvious the winter in spain in not so great, I was only ever referring to the months that matter, which is the summer period. At least you have now been positive and have agreed that the summer is great in spain. At last someone says something positive, hurray! 😀

  • #104833
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    To be honest I wasn’t referring to the winter period anyway or easter for that matter, it is obvious the winter in spain in not so great, I was only ever referring to the months that matter, which is the summer period. At least you have now been positive and have agreed that the summer is great in spain. At last someone says something positive, hurray! 😀

    Actually it really depends on which bit of Spain you are talking about (there is a bit more to Spain than the costas). For example in central Spain the springs can be fantastic with wild flowers, the summers too hot, the autumns really good with great colours, and horrible winters (unless you are at a ski resort).

  • #104834
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    ….and there goes another one…lets knock another positive post… 🙄

    And yet another offensive post from yourself, attacking anyone who dares to have different viewpoint. I think you are a dickhead, but I don’t go on about it.

    Spain maybe a convient flight away from the Uk, but its a very expensive and out of the way destination for the east of Europe.

    £1000 for a week in Spain? I’ve seen it here in Poland. Greece, Bulgaria (1 hour flight, familiar food and language) and Italy look far more attractive.

  • #104835
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    😀 😀 😀 @jonas wrote:

    @dartboy wrote:
    …… said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever

    sounds pretty negative to me….. I wouldn’t worry too much, I don’t think Spain is quite the north pole yet.
    But you just couldn’t resist turning a positive into a negative could you, that is my point and what I mean about posters on this forum, couldn’t your reply have been: “Yes, that is the great thing about Spain, good weather and a short flight away”…. 🙄

    its only negative to you as you would rather bury your head and talk things up to others its just the truth,but you are right its still only a short flight away.But you watch someone now come on and be negative and say yes but a family of 4 can now drive out cheaper than they can fly and with fuel prices rising all the time soon it will be too expensive to do that to 😆
    But seriously who really cares what the weather is like at easter as the summer is when all the tourists are there spending their money and keeping the economy afloat and summer is always good it only rained once in the 3 weeks i was there last year and i hope when i come out in 7 weeks it will be roasting otherwise i might sue you for false advertising 😆 8)[/quote]

    To be honest I wasn’t referring to the winter period anyway or easter for that matter, it is obvious the winter in spain in not so great, I was only ever referring to the months that matter, which is the summer period. At least you have now been positive and have agreed that the summer is great in spain. At last someone says something positive, hurray! :D[/quote]

    good attempt at a face save but spain is what it is and will shortly found out to be a lovely place with a pleasant climate and a financial head ache from the party which is going to turn into a massive hangover for a while to come but having not yet bought i can continue to view it for what it is and enjoy it for that.In 7 weeks i will be sunning myself eating good food and taking my kids to the Adrian valles kart track and the fun fairs in moriara and calpe to enjoy themselves and to me that is more important than anything as i have said i am looking to buy but i am a realist and if the time is never right to buy then i will continue to just rent and enjoy,and use the cash i have set aside to buy to buy another place in the uk and use the income from that to pay for those rentals which ever way it goes i can only see happy days 😀 unlike those that rushed in with rose tinted glasses of a better life or just those that bought thinking nothing could go wrong.i have only ever taken out 2 loans in my life 1 on my 1st house which i rolled onto the 2nd and paid off in 10years the second was to buy a car whilst waiting for the insurance to come through on one that had been stolen.i may sound like a shroud yorkshireman but come from kent and was taught don’t do it if you can’t afford to have it turn round and bite you.jonas you sound as if you have stretched yourself a little thin and are hanging on in there by renting your property out insted of taking the big hit,i hope you can weather the storm and come out the other side thinking wow what a ride,but don’t try to tell me i am being negative as i am so not that person that is why i sit here with a 4 bedroom house a bmw and a merc all paid for a nice income 4 great kids rental property and a grin on my face when i read your posts trying to make me sound negative.The sun is shining in my world and the only recent cloud was which school my daughter would go to next year and even that turned out the way we wanted i guess some of us are just lucky 😀

  • #104836
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    @jonas wrote:

    To be honest I wasn’t referring to the winter period anyway or easter for that matter, it is obvious the winter in spain in not so great, I was only ever referring to the months that matter, which is the summer period. At least you have now been positive and have agreed that the summer is great in spain. At last someone says something positive, hurray! 😀

    Actually it really depends on which bit of Spain you are talking about (there is a bit more to Spain than the costas). For example in central Spain the springs can be fantastic with wild flowers, the summers too hot, the autumns really good with great colours, and horrible winters (unless you are at a ski resort).

    as i said spain is abig place the costa del sol isn’t the big picture and certainly wasn’t the place for me and my family. Too many champange charlies with pepsi pockets and george hamilton suntans 😆

  • #104838
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    @jonas wrote:

    To be honest I wasn’t referring to the winter period anyway or easter for that matter, it is obvious the winter in spain in not so great, I was only ever referring to the months that matter, which is the summer period. At least you have now been positive and have agreed that the summer is great in spain. At last someone says something positive, hurray! 😀

    Actually it really depends on which bit of Spain you are talking about (there is a bit more to Spain than the costas). For example in central Spain the springs can be fantastic with wild flowers, the summers too hot, the autumns really good with great colours, and horrible winters (unless you are at a ski resort).

    Finding nice weather in summer is never a problem for me, I hate anything above 30C though. Its the winters that more important, and for that mainland Spain is too far North, so its got to be the Canary Isles. Why do things by half, I want winter sun shine.

  • #104841
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    … as i have said i am looking to buy but i am a realist and if the time is never right to buy then i will continue to just rent and enjoy,and use the cash i have set aside to buy to buy another place in the uk and use the income from that to pay for those rentals which ever way it goes i can only see happy days 😀 …

    That’s what I’m looking at doing as well. I’m fortunate (for the time being) that I’m holding a few euros and plan A was to use them to buy a second home in Spain. But when I compare what’s on offer in Spain to what those euros will buy me in the UK right now, it makes far more sense to buy a UK property that I can rent out with confidence. I can then use that rental income to pay for my holidays. At some point I suspect the pound will go up against the Spanish currency (which might no longer be the euro when it happens) and if that does happen I can then sell the UK property and buy somewhere in Spain, again taking advantage of the exchange rate. Right now it seems better to play the exchange rates rather than the property markets (which don’t seem to be going anywhere)

  • #104843
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    😀 😀 😀 @jonas wrote:
    @dartboy wrote:
    …… said the weather was awfull the worse they can remember at easter ever

    sounds pretty negative to me….. I wouldn’t worry too much, I don’t think Spain is quite the north pole yet.
    But you just couldn’t resist turning a positive into a negative could you, that is my point and what I mean about posters on this forum, couldn’t your reply have been: “Yes, that is the great thing about Spain, good weather and a short flight away”…. 🙄

    its only negative to you as you would rather bury your head and talk things up to others its just the truth,but you are right its still only a short flight away.But you watch someone now come on and be negative and say yes but a family of 4 can now drive out cheaper than they can fly and with fuel prices rising all the time soon it will be too expensive to do that to 😆
    But seriously who really cares what the weather is like at easter as the summer is when all the tourists are there spending their money and keeping the economy afloat and summer is always good it only rained once in the 3 weeks i was there last year and i hope when i come out in 7 weeks it will be roasting otherwise i might sue you for false advertising 😆 8)

    To be honest I wasn’t referring to the winter period anyway or easter for that matter, it is obvious the winter in spain in not so great, I was only ever referring to the months that matter, which is the summer period. At least you have now been positive and have agreed that the summer is great in spain. At last someone says something positive, hurray! :D[/quote]

    good attempt at a face save but spain is what it is and will shortly found out to be a lovely place with a pleasant climate and a financial head ache from the party which is going to turn into a massive hangover for a while to come but having not yet bought i can continue to view it for what it is and enjoy it for that.In 7 weeks i will be sunning myself eating good food and taking my kids to the Adrian valles kart track and the fun fairs in moriara and calpe to enjoy themselves and to me that is more important than anything as i have said i am looking to buy but i am a realist and if the time is never right to buy then i will continue to just rent and enjoy,and use the cash i have set aside to buy to buy another place in the uk and use the income from that to pay for those rentals which ever way it goes i can only see happy days 😀 unlike those that rushed in with rose tinted glasses of a better life or just those that bought thinking nothing could go wrong.i have only ever taken out 2 loans in my life 1 on my 1st house which i rolled onto the 2nd and paid off in 10years the second was to buy a car whilst waiting for the insurance to come through on one that had been stolen.i may sound like a shroud yorkshireman but come from kent and was taught don’t do it if you can’t afford to have it turn round and bite you.jonas you sound as if you have stretched yourself a little thin and are hanging on in there by renting your property out insted of taking the big hit,i hope you can weather the storm and come out the other side thinking wow what a ride,but don’t try to tell me i am being negative as i am so not that person that is why i sit here with a 4 bedroom house a bmw and a merc all paid for a nice income 4 great kids rental property and a grin on my face when i read your posts trying to make me sound negative.The sun is shining in my world and the only recent cloud was which school my daughter would go to next year and even that turned out the way we wanted i guess some of us are just lucky :D[/quote]

    Not that I feel the need to sit on a forum and brag about my financial situation like others, but now that you ask, or should I say assume about my finances I will expain my situation. I paid off my property in the uk by the age of 25! I sold that on and purchased a 4 bed in the south of the UK (excellent location) which is now fully paid off, how did I achieve this? due to my booming business in Spain, I also own my car outright and my motorhome! The only mortgate I have is with Spain and now my only debt so as to speak. Plus I put down a big deposit on the house, so not even a full morgatge.
    And I will weather the storm because I have a roof over my head in the uk already which is paid for. I would not call myself “lucky” as you do. I worked hard for what I own and am extremely proud of my achievments at a young age. If I continue to keep my spanish property until I retire, the mortgate will be fully paid off (by tourists 😀 ) and I will have a nice retirement to look forward to, if I live that long of course, and if I don’t, it will go to my kids.
    So don’t be so quick to judge!
    I only judged your negative comments, because it was after all a negative comment!
    I don’t like bragging about what I own and how many gadgets I have, it is ugly and no one wants to hear it anyway, especially in a recession where some people can’t afford to put food on the table. There are far more important things in life like your health and that of your children, so money comes and goes in my view, I just want my family to be happy, that’s my main priority in life. The house in Spain, it’s only bricks and mortar after all.

  • #104844
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    You do need to chill out a bit here Jonas.

    We both separately had our say about Logan’s overly negative viewpoint, nobody knocked either you or me for that really.

    People are not that negative about Spain per se, most of the guys and gals who are on here are indeed looking to buy, and they will when it is the right time for them, there is a lot of valid criticism and good healthy wealth warnings on here.

    Not everything that people post is just being negative to wind you up, some things are just that, and actually they are right about the weather it has been appalling somehow the past couple of years.

    Think we all have to take a wider view really, and relax a bit.

  • #104846
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Tens of thousands of British people have bought property in Spain in recent years and now find that they have bought at the wrong time, in the wrong place, and are struggling to come to terms with their predicament. Some of them will have negative equity and all of them will have properties that are worth less now than when they were bought.

    The factors to blame for this sad state of affairs are many, and include the recession and the diabolical demise of the pound Sterling.

    The solutions to their problems will depend on individual circumstances, and can range from sending the keys back, going for individual bankruptcy, accepting a proportionate loss, to merely grinning and bearing it. I suspect most people will do the latter.

    There is some good advice on this forum, a lot of it may sound negative but we live in negative times, as far as the Spanish property market goes; but there is hope other than waiting for a few years.

    Richer people from other parts of Europe are still buying, so are the Chinese and Russians. The rich Germans, especially, are flooding back in great numbers. New building has practically stopped, so the slack will be taken up quicker. And you can’t beat the climate, I’m off to the pool, right now.

  • #104847
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    I’ve really liked the “rainy” weather we’ve had in Madrid over the last few years. A bit of rain clears the air, fills up the resevoirs and makes everything that bit greener. A few years ago we had a long dry spell when everything was dusty, the air was even more polluted and everything dried up. Lets face it, you are always going to get sun in Spanish summers (unless you live in Galicia maybe) so the occasional bit of rain should be welcomed.

  • #104848
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    Not that I feel the need to sit on a forum and brag about my financial situation like others, but now that you ask, or should I say assume about my finances I will expain my situation. I paid off my property in the uk by the age of 25! I sold that on and purchased a 4 bed in the south of the UK (excellent location) which is now fully paid off, how did I achieve this? due to my booming business in Spain, I also own my car outright and my motorhome! The only mortgate I have is with Spain and now my only debt so as to speak. Plus I put down a big deposit on the house, so not even a full morgatge.
    And I will weather the storm because I have a roof over my head in the uk already which is paid for. I would not call myself “lucky” as you do. I worked hard for what I own and am extremely proud of my achievments at a young age. If I continue to keep my spanish property until I retire, the mortgate will be fully paid off (by tourists 😀 ) and I will have a nice retirement to look forward to, if I live that long of course, and if I don’t, it will go to my kids.
    So don’t be so quick to judge!
    I only judged your negative comments, because it was after all a negative comment!
    I don’t like bragging about what I own and how many gadgets I have, it is ugly and no one wants to hear it anyway, especially in a recession where some people can’t afford to put food on the table. There are far more important things in life like your health and that of your children, so money comes and goes in my view, I just want my family to be happy, that’s my main priority in life. The house in Spain, it’s only bricks and mortar after all.

    If that is your situation then I can’t see what problem you’ve got with all the bearish comments about Spain. You could turn any property crash in Spain to your advantage simply by trading up. For those with equity (or “cash”) property crashes are golden opportunities!

    (PS Modesty prevents me saying anything about my Veyron parked inside my helicopter which is parked on a helipad on my yacht which is moored in my swimming pool which forms part of one of my exclusive villas on one of my caribbean islands. So I won’t mention it at all. I could also mention that I paid it all off by the age of three. But I won’t. That would be vulgar. And besides those kind of things aren’t important to me. In fact I don’t know why I bought them, but at least I keep quiet about them 😉 )

  • #104851
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    The banks don’t have the best buys they have the worst. The private vendors have it all at their feet.

    The question is… do they want to sell, or do they want to wait, my experience tells me that 85% of them at least will wait whether 1 – 5 years, they simply will not sell.

    I don’t disagree with what you say but I do wish that those vendors who are happy to wait for better times would actually take their properties off the market rather than leaving them, cluttering up agents windows and websites at prices they’ll never get. It just encourages owners, who really want/need to sell, to think that their property is worth more than the market thinks it’s worth. Everyone gets their time wasted. I suppose it’s their right to do as they wish but frustrating none the less. Of course, I’m a would be buyer so I would say that wouldn’t I!

  • #104852
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:
    The banks don’t have the best buys they have the worst. The private vendors have it all at their feet.

    The question is… do they want to sell, or do they want to wait, my experience tells me that 85% of them at least will wait whether 1 – 5 years, they simply will not sell.

    I don’t disagree with what you say but I do wish that those vendors who are happy to wait for better times they would actually take their properties off the market rather than leaving them, cluttering up agents windows and websites at prices they’ll never get. It just encourages owners, who really want/need to sell, to think that their property is worth more than the market thinks it’s worth. Everyone gets their time wasted. I suppose it’s their right to do as they wish but frustrating none the less. Of course, I’m a would be buyer so I would say that wouldn’t I!

    I only posted what my position is as Peterhun seems intent to have everyone believe I am down and out and a completely desperate seller, which is untrue. (Can’t understand his need to brag about his circumstances as it was completely off topic)
    I will get back on topic as I think everyone is getting a bit too excited about the one positive post I have posted about the Spanish weather.
    It must be hard being positive and hearing positive things about Spain, so I will join the depressed crew as Rocker and Chris have, they have certainly changed their tune in the last couple of months, I suppose if you cant’ beat them join them, eh, Rocker and Chris 🙂

    The reason some vendors still have their property on the market is because that is the price they need to achieve so they are hoping that someone does come along, who know someone may! It has happened to my friend and he had it on the market for 2 years!
    In Spain in a booming market, properties don’t just fly off the shelves either… so they are used to taking time to sell a property. I read a report which said that the average time in Spain to sell a property is 8 years! I don’t quite believe that it takes that long, but maybe it does!

  • #104853
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    It must be hard being positive and hearing positive things about Spain, so I will join the depressed crew as Rocker and Chris have, they have certainly changed their tune in the last couple of months, I suppose if you cant’ beat them join them, eh, Rocker and Chris 🙂

    Well I don’t know what Rocker feels about being lumped with me in the depressed crew, but I do rather think you have the wrong end of the stick here really. Chill out a bit, all I said was that people were right about the weather lately and there’s no point denying some people have genuine issues out there.

    I rather think my tune has been pretty much the same however over quite a number of years, I can’t see it has changed much in the past few months.

    Also, you don’t need to set yourself against everyone on the forum, what happens is people just stop reading your posts.

  • #104854
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    ….I do wish that those vendors who are happy to wait for better times would actually take their properties off the market rather than leaving them, cluttering up agents windows and websites at prices they’ll never get….. Of course, I’m a would be buyer so I would say that wouldn’t I!

    Yes you would say that, but it doesn’t stop you being bang on right though… I wish for the same thing quite frankly.

  • #104855
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It would be useful if agents updated their websites too. The last property we bought in Spain we were still getting calls from agents with viewers up to a year after we had moved in! Someone asked me one day if we were selling, I said not. It was actually featured in a property mag 👿

  • #104856
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    The reason some vendors still have their property on the market is because that is the price they need to achieve so they are hoping that someone does come along, who know someone may! It has happened to my friend and he had it on the market for 2 years!
    In Spain in a booming market, properties don’t just fly off the shelves either… so they are used to taking time to sell a property. I read a report which said that the average time in Spain to sell a property is 8 years! I don’t quite believe that it takes that long, but maybe it does!

    Yes, I know why they do it but it can actually be counter productive for themselves.
    In the situation I recounted some posts ago, the vendor had this idea of what price he wanted and stuck with it. As the market went south so did his asking price but always lagging the market. Had he originally put it on at the price he is asking now he almost certainly would have sold it easily but now, short of a minor miracle, he’s not going to sell for anything like what he’s currently asking. He told me why he needs to sell (which I won’t repeat here) but as sympathetic as I am to his plight, to give him what he wants would just be taking the noose from his neck and putting it around my own.

    All avoidable if it had been a realistic asking price from the start.

    Nothing I say here is going to change anything to do with the way asking prices are set but I feel it’s worth a mention anyway.

    Jonas, in your case, you are confident you can weather the storm and hold out for as long as necessary but perhaps those that can’t should think very carefully about the next offer they get. Here endeth the sermon.

  • #104857
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    in July and August it is not unusual to watch the Spanish weather forecast and find the map littered with boring oranges, day after day. Not so over the last couple of days. I watched the forecast of storms and torrential rain all over the place and looked outside, anxiously. Brilliant sunshine in my tiny part of this vast country.

    We underestimate the vastness, isn’t it eight times larger than the UK? And we overestimate the importance of our little part of it, usually along the coast somewhere. We’re all experts in the property market in our little area, or think we are, Jonas (I don’t usually get personal) thinks I live next door to Chris; I don’t, we live 400 miles apart, and I think our views on the Spanish property are a similar distance apart.

  • #104858
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    its only negative to you as you would rather bury your head and talk things up to others its just the truth,but you are right its still only a short flight away.But you watch someone now come on and be negative and say yes but a family of 4 can now drive out cheaper than they can fly and with fuel prices rising all the time soon it will be too expensive to do that to 😆
    But seriously who really cares what the weather is like at easter as the summer is when all the tourists are there spending their money and keeping the economy afloat and summer is always good it only rained once in the 3 weeks i was there last year and i hope when i come out in 7 weeks it will be roasting otherwise i might sue you for false advertising 😆 8)[/quote]

    To be honest I wasn’t referring to the winter period anyway or easter for that matter, it is obvious the winter in spain in not so great, I was only ever referring to the months that matter, which is the summer period. At least you have now been positive and have agreed that the summer is great in spain. At last someone says something positive, hurray! :D[/quote]

    good attempt at a face save but spain is what it is and will shortly found out to be a lovely place with a pleasant climate and a financial head ache from the party which is going to turn into a massive hangover for a while to come but having not yet bought i can continue to view it for what it is and enjoy it for that.In 7 weeks i will be sunning myself eating good food and taking my kids to the Adrian valles kart track and the fun fairs in moriara and calpe to enjoy themselves and to me that is more important than anything as i have said i am looking to buy but i am a realist and if the time is never right to buy then i will continue to just rent and enjoy,and use the cash i have set aside to buy to buy another place in the uk and use the income from that to pay for those rentals which ever way it goes i can only see happy days 😀 unlike those that rushed in with rose tinted glasses of a better life or just those that bought thinking nothing could go wrong.i have only ever taken out 2 loans in my life 1 on my 1st house which i rolled onto the 2nd and paid off in 10years the second was to buy a car whilst waiting for the insurance to come through on one that had been stolen.i may sound like a shroud yorkshireman but come from kent and was taught don’t do it if you can’t afford to have it turn round and bite you.jonas you sound as if you have stretched yourself a little thin and are hanging on in there by renting your property out insted of taking the big hit,i hope you can weather the storm and come out the other side thinking wow what a ride,but don’t try to tell me i am being negative as i am so not that person that is why i sit here with a 4 bedroom house a bmw and a merc all paid for a nice income 4 great kids rental property and a grin on my face when i read your posts trying to make me sound negative.The sun is shining in my world and the only recent cloud was which school my daughter would go to next year and even that turned out the way we wanted i guess some of us are just lucky :D[/quote]

    Not that I feel the need to sit on a forum and brag about my financial situation like others, but now that you ask, or should I say assume about my finances I will expain my situation. I paid off my property in the uk by the age of 25! I sold that on and purchased a 4 bed in the south of the UK (excellent location) which is now fully paid off, how did I achieve this? due to my booming business in Spain, I also own my car outright and my motorhome! The only mortgate I have is with Spain and now my only debt so as to speak. Plus I put down a big deposit on the house, so not even a full morgatge.
    And I will weather the storm because I have a roof over my head in the uk already which is paid for. I would not call myself “lucky” as you do. I worked hard for what I own and am extremely proud of my achievments at a young age. If I continue to keep my spanish property until I retire, the mortgate will be fully paid off (by tourists 😀 ) and I will have a nice retirement to look forward to, if I live that long of course, and if I don’t, it will go to my kids.
    So don’t be so quick to judge!
    I only judged your negative comments, because it was after all a negative comment!
    I don’t like bragging about what I own and how many gadgets I have, it is ugly and no one wants to hear it anyway, especially in a recession where some people can’t afford to put food on the table. There are far more important things in life like your health and that of your children, so money comes and goes in my view, I just want my family to be happy, that’s my main priority in life. The house in Spain, it’s only bricks and mortar after all.[/quote]

    i was not bragging i was trying to get across the point of why i wasn’t the negative person and you were trying to make me out to be.
    if i wanted to brag i would need to have more than i have i am just a hard working ceramic tiler who has been wise and invested luckily at the right times,i have worked 6 days aweek for long hours.
    i will now stop replying to your posts because you only read thigs the way you want to the same as you look at every thing,glad you are able to hold on to you property without it being a burdon on you have a happy life and enjoy the summer sun (and winter rain)

  • #104862
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    I only posted what my position is as Peterhun seems intent to have everyone believe I am down and out and a co

    You are confusing me with Dartboy I think. I’m the one who called you a name for your aggressive and offensive posting. If buying and owning property is something to boast about, I have nothing to boast.

  • #104865
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @jonas wrote:

    I only posted what my position is as Peterhun seems intent to have everyone believe I am down and out and a co

    You are confusing me with Dartboy I think. I’m the one who called you a name for your aggressive and offensive posting. If buying and owning property is something to boast about, I have nothing to boast.

    Sorry Peterhun, I did mean dartboy.

  • #104867
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @jonas wrote:

    ….and there goes another one…lets knock another positive post… 🙄

    And yet another offensive post from yourself, attacking anyone who dares to have different viewpoint. I think you are a dickhead, but I don’t go on about it.

    Spain maybe a convient flight away from the Uk, but its a very expensive and out of the way destination for the east of Europe.

    £1000 for a week in Spain? I’ve seen it here in Poland. Greece, Bulgaria (1 hour flight, familiar food and language) and Italy look far more attractive.

    What was offensive about that! Your the one being offensive calling me a dickhead, that is personal and unnecessary, I have not insulted you personally, I just think you are negative. That is not an insult that is a fact from reading your posts.

    I should be allowed to come on a site and put across my views without getting hounded! Just because I don’t agree with all the negativity and I am trying to be positive (god forbid on here 😕 ) I don’t believe I should receive some of the abuse you have all been chucking at me. I think a lot of people on here are negative and some do have interesting things to say.

    After all, all I said was how Spain has its good points,the weather and the short distance to the uk, which is a fact, but you still manage to find a negative from that!
    I think you and many on here come across as extremely rude, especially to people who don’t agree with the negative views on here, but I don’t call you a dickhead! It’s all a harmless chat on a forum and I think personal insults like that should be spared.

  • #104869
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Jonas I think everyone should have the right to put across their point of view. The forum gets boring if everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. Some threads do get heated sometimes but that’s forums. Everywhere in the world has some positives…well discounting a few middle east countries 😆

    The weather on the CDS is expected to be hot and sunny for at least the next 2 weeks. It rained heavily yesterday 😉

  • #104870
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Jonas I think everyone should have the right to put across their point of view. The forum gets boring if everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. Some threads do get heated sometimes but that’s forums. Everywhere in the world has some positives…well discounting a few middle east countries 😆

    The weather on the CDS is expected to be hot and sunny for at least the next 2 weeks. It rained heavily yesterday 😉

    Well, at least someone on here agrees that I am entitled to disagree with others points of view. It’s just a shame I can’t just give my opinion without everyone taking such offence. I think it makes the forum more interesting to read in my opnion, a bit of banter never harmed anyone.
    Whether some answer my posts or not is pretty irrevelant really. I probably wouldn’t want to answer theirs either 😉

  • #104871
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    Jonas, in your case, you are confident you can weather the storm and hold out for as long as necessary but perhaps those that can’t should think very carefully about the next offer they get.

    I think more sellers would think carefully about the next offer they get, but it depends if they have equity in the property. The banks won’t let you sell the property unless you pay them back first. So if you are selling a property for 200.000euros and you owe the bank 180.000 euros for example, you won’t be able to sell the property at 50% off the asking price unless you can pay the bank the difference.
    Especially if you are a non resident as they will also hold back 3% retention. So some sellers are stuck and they just cannot afford to drop the asking price. It’s not that they are stubborn sellers, they are stuck between “la espada y la pared” as the spanish say.

  • #104873
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think you’ll find that the selling process in Spain is different to the UK, it’s much simpler and ten times as dangerous.

    If your buyer wants to pay cash, as they often do, and not use a lawyer, as they often do, then you, if you don’t choose to use a lawyer either, appear before the notary along with your buyer and the notary merely records the sale on his official ledger.

    Nobody else will know of the transaction at this stage. It is up to the buyer to check whether there is any sort of ‘charge’ on the property, whether an unpaid electric bill, or an outstanding mortgage.

  • #104874
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Jonas I think everyone should have the right to put across their point of view. The forum gets boring if everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. Some threads do get heated sometimes but that’s forums. Everywhere in the world has some positives…well discounting a few middle east countries 😆

    The weather on the CDS is expected to be hot and sunny for at least the next 2 weeks. It rained heavily yesterday 😉

    Probably why there was so much activity on this thread yesterday. I expect it to quieten down for at least the next two weeks. 😉

  • #104875
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I think you’ll find that the selling process in Spain is different to the UK, it’s much simpler and ten times as dangerous.

    If your buyer wants to pay cash, as they often do, and not use a lawyer, as they often do, then you, if you don’t choose to use a lawyer either, appear before the notary along with your buyer and the notary merely records the sale on his official ledger.

    Nobody else will know of the transaction at this stage. It is up to the buyer to check whether there is any sort of ‘charge’ on the property, whether an unpaid electric bill, or an outstanding mortgage.

    So are you saying the seller should just sell and not tell the bank and then the buyer gets lumbered with the morgatge?
    Or have I misunderstood your post? If this is what you are saying, I can’t believe this is possible. The notary would surely check if there is a mortgage outstanding on the property. And as a seller if you were to do this, this must be highly illegal surely even for Spanish standards. And what sort of purchaser would be dumb enough to purchase a property without checking this all out. I can’t see how this would benefit either party, apart from the fact that the seller sells (in a really dodgy manner with high risks) and the buyer buys at 50% off but gets lumbared with someone elses morgatge.
    Please correct me if I have misunderstood your post.

  • #104877
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @jonas wrote:

    So are you saying the seller should just sell and not tell the bank and then the buyer gets lumbered with the morgatge?
    Please correct me if I have misunderstood your post.

    It seems that is exactly what he was saying, which is ridiculous and makes me wonder about Rocker sometimes, it really does, it is not going to happen, end of story.

  • #104878
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    With my feet firmly on the ground, in situ, I wonder about the dreamers. What I have described is an every day occurrence in Spain. People buy a property from an honest seller and find that the developers , paid in full by the buyer, have gone skint and the banks have an over riding charge on the property, which the notary will have no knowledge of.

    If they buy from a dishonest seller, it’s just the same.

    I’m sorry, but McCarthy seems to be lagging about 20 years behind.

  • #104879
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    With my feet firmly on the ground, in situ, I wonder about the dreamers. What I have described is an every day occurrence in Spain. People buy a property from an honest seller and find that the developers , paid in full by the buyer, have gone skint and the banks have an over riding charge on the property, which the notary will have no knowledge of.

    If they buy from a dishonest seller, it’s just the same.

    I’m sorry, but McCarthy seems to be lagging about 20 years behind.

    I was talking about normal every day sellers situations, not dodgy developers. Maybe dodgy developers do this all the time, but I doubt any seller would go down this route. In fact I think any seller would be mad to even think of doing it!

  • #104880
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It is not possible now. The Notary does a last minute check for charge on the property. A transaction cannot be made in cash either without a paper trail, the Notary wants to know where the cash has come from and he makes a record of it. Chris isn’t out of date you are Rocker.

  • #104881
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    But the big if is what happens if the notary misses something? I know that you can always fall back on the seller if he has done something illegal but will the buyer be in the clear? Do the notaries insurances cover these kinds of “happenings”.

    My guess is that the buyer will absorb all the damages if he can’t catch the seller.

    I had a “sale” where some hidden costs showed up after a few month but luckily for the buyer the seller was a stand up person. I had allready promised the buyer that if we ran into problems my firm would pay for it. As a buyer and not speaking the native tongue without the know how it’s impossible to look after oneself to be honest.

  • #104883
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A Notary in Spain is a government employee, and as his name implies, he ‘notes’ transactions on the government’s behalf and subtracts tax cash where appropriate. He does not do any checks whatsoever and has no interest in the method of payment.

    There is a separate ‘counting’ room next to his office which is there for the very common cash transactions.

  • #104885
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ” A Notary in Spain is a government employee, and as his name implies, he ‘notes’ transactions on the government’s behalf and subtracts tax cash where appropriate”

    Whilst, I am not disagreeing with Rocker in so far as the role of a Notary. I find it extremely curious that in order to note a transaction. Why does a Notary have to have take a long & apparantly tedious length of studies to qualify as a Notary.

    The cycnic in me tells me that as he/she is collecting taxes on behalf of the Government. He/she is handsomely paid to ensure the temptation with the taxation money which he or she is a custodian is minimised..

  • #104888
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I recently sold a property in marbella and the Notary went through absolutely everything even though I was selling to a relative. He looked at community bills, IBI bills and received a fax from the property register about 10 mins before signing. Things have changed, at least on the CDS.

  • #104889
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I’m sorry, but McCarthy seems to be lagging about 20 years behind.

    You are the person who once advised the forum that you knew someone who knew me from spending time with me in Wormwood Scrubs! So, I have never, ever been able to take anything you say seriously, so please, just accept it, in this respect you are talking through you hat!

    What you say is not fact, it is not even remotely the case, it is rubbish.

  • #104890
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    If your buyer wants to pay cash, as they often do, and not use a lawyer, as they often do, then you, if you don’t choose to use a lawyer either, appear before the notary along with your buyer and the notary merely records the sale on his official ledger.

    correct, except the buyer must show where the money (whether cash or bankers draft) has come from.

    @Rocker wrote:

    Nobody else will know of the transaction at this stage. It is up to the buyer to check whether there is any sort of ‘charge’ on the property, whether an unpaid electric bill, or an outstanding mortgage.

    Correct, but as the notary is signing aswell, they also do the relevant checks to know whether there are any outstanding debts on the property. This is normally done by contacting the land registry and requesting a certificado de deuda from the town hall.
    Additionally it is normally stated whether the property is sold free of all debts (community, water,etc..) and the notary asks for proof. If no proof is supplied, then the notary confirms whether the buyer understands this and agrees.
    In a standard title deeds it also specifies who is paying what taxes (transfer/IVA/plus valia/retencion/etc…).

  • #104891
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    A Notary in Spain is a government employee, and as his name implies, he ‘notes’ transactions on the government’s behalf and subtracts tax cash where appropriate. He does not do any checks whatsoever and has no interest in the method of payment.

    There is a separate ‘counting’ room next to his office which is there for the very common cash transactions.

    Incorrect. For that average transaction the notary earns 450/550€ euros.

    The title deeds must give a complete breakdown of how payment is made. If cash, you need to show a paper trail. Ig bankers drafts, you must give all details on which account it came out off, and copies of the drafts are made and attached to the title deeds.

    Now whether black money is involved is another topic. Whether the buyer or vendor chooses to defraud the tax man has nothing to do with the notary.

  • #104892
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I recently sold a property in marbella and the Notary went through absolutely everything even though I was selling to a relative. He looked at community bills, IBI bills and received a fax from the property register about 10 mins before signing. Things have changed, at least on the CDS.

    It all starting getting tightened around 2007. When several notaries along the coast (in marbella) got shut down/arrested. Even then I beleive the amount of notaries that closed was very few.

  • #104893
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks, Fuengi. I was trying to keep my explanation of the Notary’s function as simple as possible, it seems to be widely misunderstood.

  • #104894
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Thanks, Fuengi. I was trying to keep my explanation of the Notary’s function as simple as possible, it seems to be widely misunderstood.

    Yes, quite clear from Fuengi, well done in highlighting just how wrong and way off the mark you were Rocker! Do you understand what you were implying to Jonas on the subject? Let alone telling me that I was wrong and somehow living 20 years in the past?

    Your kind of flippant, wholly incorrect and often poorly presentated statements – on how things work here – spewed out, for all the world; as if they were fact, when they are sooooo far from the truth as to be ridiculous, really don’t help methinks.

    So just to make it absolutely clear for everyone, your commmentary on Notaries and Mortgages was absolute bunkum. And actually rather bizarre.

  • #104895
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Chris, I can’t get rid of this mental image of you sitting in a cell in Wormwood Scrubs waiting for a cake to be delivered with a file in it, I’m going to need some therapy to get over it 😆 That said, I can think of several ‘bad’ agents of the day who should have been locked up. 😡

    I’m pretty sure things have tightened up a lot in Spain compared to those days when we bought there and ‘B’ money seemed prevalent in many transactions, certainly we’ve learnt a great deal if we should ever buy abroad again. 8)

  • #104897
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Chris, I can’t get rid of this mental image of you sitting in a cell in Wormwood Scrubs waiting for a cake to be delivered with a file in it, I’m going to need some therapy to get over it 😆 That said, I can think of several ‘bad’ agents of the day who should have been locked up. 😡

    I’m pretty sure things have tightened up a lot in Spain compared to those days when we bought there and ‘B’ money seemed prevalent in many transactions, certainly we’ve learnt a great deal if we should ever buy abroad again. 8)

    Stay far and far away from any agent that even touches those subjects in a none negative light.

  • #104899
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @Ardun wrote:

    But the big if is what happens if the notary misses something? I know that you can always fall back on the seller if he has done something illegal but will the buyer be in the clear? Do the notaries insurances cover these kinds of “happenings”.

    Careful here. The notary does certain standard checks on the property, no more. He (or she) makes sure both parties know what they are buying, that’s it.

    @Ardun wrote:

    My guess is that the buyer will absorb all the damages if he can’t catch the seller.

    depends whether it would be a personal debt or a debt on the property.

    @Ardun wrote:

    I had a “sale” where some hidden costs showed up after a few month but luckily for the buyer the seller was a stand up person. I had allready promised the buyer that if we ran into problems my firm would pay for it. As a buyer and not speaking the native tongue without the know how it’s impossible to look after oneself to be honest.

    Curious, can you specify?

  • #104900
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Christ, Chris, calm down. I’ve already acknowledged that that your and my views on the Spanish property market are many miles apart. If you re-read what Fuengi said, we are almost in agreement on the notary’s function.

    I don’t know where you got that nonsense about the Scrubs from, but I admit it’s funny. Perhaps it’s word association with ‘lagging 20 years behind’?

  • #104901
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Chris, I can’t get rid of this mental image of you sitting in a cell in Wormwood Scrubs waiting for a cake to be delivered with a file in it,

    Angie… I was kind of hoping you would be the one sending me the cake 😆

  • #104902
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Christ, Chris, calm down.
    I don’t know where you got that nonsense about the Scrubs from, but I admit it’s funny. Perhaps it’s word association with ‘lagging 20 years behind’?

    I learned how to research this from Charlie, it’s quite handy, you wrote in reference to myself:

    @Rocker wrote:

    Monday 19th July 2010:

    You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business. Recently, he bragged about employing 120 people on contract, blatent nonsense.

    I know the guy from the CDS and much earlier when he was running a second mortgage business on the Essex side of London and Wormwood Scrubs.

    The Spanish are overwhelmed with clever conmen from Europe, but they’re casting a wide net, belatedly, and Connery might be gripping the rail along with other deserving people.

    Charlie very nicely told you to get back in your box as it happens in the next post, because I had just laughed it off. Without even advising you that the number of contract staff we had was actually 150 rather than the 120 you blithely said was blatant nonesense – not that you knew anything about that, or me either.

    Am still laughing now, and so it seems thankfully is Angie, because it was just too ridiculous to countenance.

    Calm down…? I am happily chilled, I hope you are too, I am just pointing out why some of your posts totally lack any credibility that’s all. Some of your others are just fine. Some of mine are also moronic, the way I learned to search for past posts, was because the inimitable Charlie also took me down and to task on something I said a couple of years ago – from which I had to admit the error of my ways.

    You on the other hand did not concede your error in the above regard. But don’t worry it isn’t going to eat me alive, I am just gonna eat the cake that Angie sends me when I do end up in the Scrubs!

    I think I am being quite generous in saying some of your posts are fine. Surely can’t be many people you call a liar and an ex con who would give you the time of day really.

    And while i am here, I think I prefer when you call me McCarthy rather than Chris, its a bit more honest.

    So, now you know where I “got that nonesense about the scrubs” from.

    Oh yeah guvnor… just for good measure – I have never in my life been in or anywhere near Essex.

    Cheers

  • #104903
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Thanks, Fuengi. I was trying to keep my explanation of the Notary’s function as simple as possible, it seems to be widely misunderstood.

    Problem is rocker it cannot be kept that simple. You make it sound like a notary will not care if on signing you just bring in a bag of money and buy a property, no questions asked. They would also have the previous title deeds and a nota simple. They would know all debts and how they should be treated under the relavent legislations.
    saying…
    @Rocker wrote:

    appear before the notary along with your buyer and the notary merely records the sale on his official ledger.

    …gives the wrong impression.

    ADDITION: Also you cannot simply turn up at the notary. You need to arrange an appointment and supply a range of documents on whos buying and selling, civil status, occupations, nationality, residency, etc… prior to any signing.

  • #104907
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    Christ, Chris, calm down.
    I don’t know where you got that nonsense about the Scrubs from, but I admit it’s funny. Perhaps it’s word association with ‘lagging 20 years behind’?

    I learned how to research this from Charlie, it’s quite handy, you wrote in reference to myself:

    @Rocker wrote:

    Monday 19th July 2010:

    You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business. Recently, he bragged about employing 120 people on contract, blatent nonsense.

    I know the guy from the CDS and much earlier when he was running a second mortgage business on the Essex side of London and Wormwood Scrubs.

    The Spanish are overwhelmed with clever conmen from Europe, but they’re casting a wide net, belatedly, and Connery might be gripping the rail along with other deserving people.

    Charlie very nicely told you to get back in your box as it happens in the next post, because I had just laughed it off. Without even advising you that the number of contract staff we had was actually 150 rather than the 120 you blithely said was blatant nonesense – not that you knew anything about that, or me either.

    Am still laughing now, and so it seems thankfully is Angie, because it was just too ridiculous to countenance.

    Calm down…? I am happily chilled, I hope you are too, I am just pointing out why some of your posts totally lack any credibility that’s all. Some of your others are just fine. Some of mine are also moronic, the way I learned to search for past posts, was because the inimitable Charlie also took me down and to task on something I said a couple of years ago – from which I had to admit the error of my ways.

    You on the other hand did not concede your error in the above regard. But don’t worry it isn’t going to eat me alive, I am just gonna eat the cake that Angie sends me when I do end up in the Scrubs!

    I think I am being quite generous in saying some of your posts are fine. Surely can’t be many people you call a liar and an ex con who would give you the time of day really.

    And while i am here, I think I prefer when you call me McCarthy rather than Chris, its a bit more honest.

    So, now you know where I “got that nonesense about the scrubs” from.

    Oh yeah guvnor… just for good measure – I have never in my life been in or anywhere near Essex.

    Cheers

    Jesus H Christ, here we have an estate agent from Marbella, the most corrupt place in Spain, Europe and possibly the world, complaining when people tell him what a crackpot he is. He recently posted that Spanish property prices are going up!

    I suppose I’m wasting my time, but I can categorically state that Spanish property prices are falling.

    I can also categorically state that Spanish notaries do not check whether there is an outstanding mortgage on the property on whose sale they are officiating.

    I can also categorically state that I enjoy a discussion on this forum, and if it gets heated, so much the better.

    Where’s that troublemaker, Jonas?

  • #104908
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I can also categorically state that Spanish notaries do not check whether there is an outstanding mortgage on the property on whose sale they are officiating

    Rocker you are so wrong. The Notary checked everything when we sold.

  • #104910
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Another thing that is really annoying is that some buyers have had to pay extra taxes because they have bought “cheap”. I guess the states figures its a great way to bring in extra taxes and stop the dealing with money under the tables but it just works so wrong when the market has plummeted.

  • #104916
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I can also categorically state that Spanish notaries do not check whether there is an outstanding mortgage on the property on whose sale they are officiating.

    Yep, you are a moron, fact.

    Also, having pointed out where the “Wormwood Scrubs” comment came from, then I think you could have at least apologised for indicating that you knew me or of me, when you patently do not, and for giving a completely erroneous impression of my background. But no, that seems beyond you.

    You can continue this discussion on your own, I am done with you.

  • #104929
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    To recap: This interesting discussion raised the extremely important and relevant point of the thousands of British people who bought in Spain in recent years and now find themselves in trouble because of the Spanish (and worldwide) downturn.

    The specific example discussed buying a Spanish property at 280K, with a mortgage of 200K, which is now worth 180K.

    To sell now doesn’t seem to make sense, nobody wants a 20K loss on property which has always been considered a safe investment. The trouble is that next year, according to the Bank of Spain, the loss is expected to be even greater, with no satisfactory end in sight.

    Desperate people do desperate things, it’s not something to be condoned, but sticking your head in the sand is not the answer either.

  • #104930
    Profile photo of ozmunky
    ozmunky
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    To recap: This interesting discussion raised the extremely important and relevant point of the thousands of British people who bought in Spain in recent years and now find themselves in trouble because of the Spanish (and worldwide) downturn.

    The specific example discussed buying a Spanish property at 280K, with a mortgage of 200K, which is now worth 180K.

    To sell now doesn’t seem to make sense, nobody wants a 20K loss on property which has always been considered a safe investment. The trouble is that next year, according to the Bank of Spain, the loss is expected to be even greater, with no satisfactory end in sight.

    Desperate people do desperate things, it’s not something to be condoned, but sticking your head in the sand is not the answer either.

    You need to tell these people to get a grip.

    Cut your losses now. Period.

    If you’re in a life and death situation and the doctors say amputate, you amputate. End of.

  • #104931
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Your advice is perfectly correct, of course it is, but it’s not the British way, property always goes up, it’s in our British bones.

    I bought a house in Hornchurch for 3K and sold it for ten times that amount, I bought a business in Marbella for . . . . .

    This last recession has turned the world upside down, there are no experts left to tell us what’s going to happen next – I sometimes think our leaders are tossing coins to predict the future.

  • #104932
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Tossing a coin only gives two options. The option’s here are numerous

  • #104948
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I remember the Rolling Stones having a hit song with another option!

  • #104950
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I am fan of the stones, but cant seam to work out which track do you meam. As a rocker you can enlighten us ?.

  • #104953
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You’re putting me into an impossible situation, part of the song relates to something being painless.

    It gives me a belated opportunity to reply to the idiot estate agent from Marbella who called me names which surely gives a right of reply?

    Name calling is silly, but this smarmy, horrible guy pretends that being an estate agent during the time of the most horrible corruption in the world somehow gives him legitimacy to state his ridiculous views.

    His name is Mr McCarthy, and I don’t know whether he was in Wormwood Scrubs or not, but he’s not a nice person.

  • #104955
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    rocker: I don’t know you or Chris McCarthy but you are the one who started the personal attacks, & despite Chris McCarthy denying your claims you have failed to back up your statements.

    You are part of the problem destroying these forums. I don’t care about your ego, all people like myself want is informed comment with which we can agree or disagree with.

    I have nothing to do with Marbella, my property is on the Costa Blanca & so my perspective is different to a Costa Del Sol estate agent.

    Just grow up, accept you are not in the playground of your primary school & move on!

  • #104959
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I don’t always agree with chris but the personal attacks are abusive and should be deleted. He posts on here as himself probably about the only member who does. I feel the comments are motivated by green eye of jealousy and a chip on the shoulder about marbella. Infact if I were he I would demand they be removed.

  • #104961
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    Rocker

    Unfortunately the quality of your recent posts has declined significantly and appear now to be just pernicious and spiteful, which are not good qualities to bear on a public forum.

    If you want people to take your postings seriously then you will need to refrain from personal insults otherwise you will just come over as someone who is just self indulgent and increasingly embittered

    Richard

  • #104969
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    I am fan of the stones, but cant seam to work out which track do you meam. As a rocker you can enlighten us ?.

    tumbling dice maybe

  • #104970
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Ah hm! I believe twas Lord Archer who inhabited the Scrubbs 😆

    ‘owever, I cannot say if it true that the agent provocateur known ere as Chris, was ever found loitering at the gates of ‘Olloway awaiting a likely inmate to be released, I know not of ‘is preferences 🙄

    At the very least, Chris remained in Spain at ‘is post and did not flee with the wonga to Thailand like some other agents, now defunct of course 😀

    Peace on Earth to all those who dwell on this Forum 😆

  • #104972
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Ah hm! I believe twas Lord Archer who inhabited the Scrubbs 😆

    ‘owever, I cannot say if it true that the agent provocateur known ere as Chris, was ever found loitering at the gates of ‘Olloway awaiting a likely inmate to be released, I know not of ‘is preferences 🙄

    At the very least, Chris remained in Spain at ‘is post and did not flee with the wonga to Thailand like some other agents, now defunct of course 😀

    Peace on Earth to all those who dwell on this Forum 😆

    Why was it that so many just took of to Thailand? I have seen lots of “scamming” agents that did that.

  • #104985
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Ardun, that’s interesting that you think the same about them fleeing to Thailand.

    That makes me think they believe they are out of reach of Spanish, British and other investigators in Thailand, as well as angry buyers, maybe the ‘night life’ girlies/girly boys is also more attractive? 😉

    One large Costa Agent (P. Banus and C. Blanca based) which closed down having shafted so many buyers disappeared off to Thailand and opened up a branch of the same named estate agency over there. 😡

  • #104987
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Perhaps, Thailand does not have an extradition treaty with Spain & UK ??????

  • #105009
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    getting back on topic – it looks like you can snap up one of these bargains through “vente privee”:

    http://www.expansion.com/2011/06/10/empresas/inmobiliario/1307738030.html?a=4e7b67dc4a85b662f6524b49e2e151a4&t=1307978921

    Los 1,7 millones de socios en españa del club de ventas privadas online podrán adquirir entre el 14 y el 19 de junio alrededor de cien inmuebles de altamira, con un descuento adicional del 15%.

    Banco Santander ha fichado al club de ventas privadas online Vente-privee para dar salida a parte del stock de su filial inmobiliaria Altamira Real Estate. Es la primera vez que este club, que principalmente utilizan grupos de moda como Inditex, Mango o Levi’s, oferta bienes inmuebles. De esta forma, los 1,7 millones de socios que Vente-privee tiene en España podrán adquirir un centenar de inmuebles con un descuento medio adicional al que ya ofrece la entidad bancaria del 15%. “Hay algún caso puntual que alcanza el 50%”, añaden fuentes de Vente-privee.

    Operativa
    Las viviendas se ubican en diferentes provincias e incluyen ciudades como Madrid, Barcelona, Alicante, Huesca, Las Palmas, Zaragoza y Granada. La oferta abarca todo tipo de inmuebles, como primera y segunda residencia, además de estudios, apartamentos y pisos de hasta seis dormitorios. Las mismas fuentes explican que saldrán a la venta desde pisos por 60.000 euros hasta una vivienda de lujo en Barcelona de alrededor de un millón de euros.

    La venta comenzará el próximo martes a las 7.00 de la mañana y se prolongará hasta la medianoche del 19 de junio. Cuando comience la venta, los socios podrán acceder a las fichas y fotografías de las viviendas y, si están interesados en alguna de ellas, pueden pinchar en la opción de reservar, sin necesidad de efectuar ningún desembolso de dinero.

    Entonces, serán redireccionados a un cuestionario de Altamira, que será la entidad encargada de culminar el proceso de venta. Cada inmueble puede ser reservado por hasta seis personas, aunque se seguirá un orden de prioridad en la reserva.

    Es la primera vez que Vente-privee España realiza una venta de este tipo, que ya ha sido testada con éxito en otros países como Francia y Alemania. Fuentes del club explicaron que su objetivo es seguir ampliando su oferta más allá de la moda, los accesorios o la electrónica. En su web, ya han salido a la venta entradas para espectáculos y coches. La primera prueba de este tipo en España se hizo hace dos años, cuando el club online Buyvip comercializó 19 promociones de Metrovacesa, con rebajas de precio de hasta el 35%.

  • #105011
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Chopera, if you find one who will end up buying from them. Let the forum know.

  • #105062
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    At the very least, Chris remained in Spain at ‘is post and did not flee with the wonga to Thailand like some other agents, now defunct of course : 😆

    I just deserted the post for a few days as my wife took me off to the Lake District for a few days relaxation, OMG now there is something of beauty and perfection I have to say, and jeeze the people living and working up there seem to be having a very happy time of it I also have to say.

    I bet there is no forum like this one banging on about the lakes.

    We also were thinking of Thailand for Christmas because the kids have never been to Asia, and we have done pretty much everywhere else, but I have to say you have put me right off the idea now Angie. 🙁

  • #105073
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I was referring to ‘after the boom days in Spain’ when the you know who crowd fled to Thailand once their mis-selling world came crashing down, I burst into song ‘a life on the ocean wave’! 🙂

    Don’t go near that Lake District Forum 😆

    We’re visiting friends in Spain who tell me that a friend of theirs is also there tying up a deal for a finca/villa and buying from Viva right now having secured a big reduction in price 😛

  • #105076
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    We’re visiting friends in Spain who tell me that a friend of theirs is also there tying up a deal for a finca/villa and buying from Viva right now having secured a big reduction in price 😛

    ]

    Well jeeze fingers crossed that goes OK, am sure I will hear about it if not, just one of the scary things about being open on the forum – accountability! Ugh, was never sure it was a good idea! But hey ho…

  • #105077
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @angie wrote:
    We’re visiting friends in Spain who tell me that a friend of theirs is also there tying up a deal for a finca/villa and buying from Viva right now having secured a big reduction in price 😛

    ]

    Well jeeze fingers crossed that goes OK, am sure I will hear about it if not, just one of the scary things about being open on the forum – accountability! Ugh, was never sure it was a good idea! But hey ho…

    Yup you should have joined as a Global Investor living in Beruit…or somewhere 😉

  • #105079
    Profile photo of DrRobert
    DrRobert
    Participant

    ‘Paint It Black (Money)’ by the Stones?

  • #105168
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    [/quote]
    Any one on here is either:

    An estate agent waiting for the market to improve
    A seller waiting to sell
    A buyer/investor praying for the market to drop as low as possible so they can invest in Spain, hence the constant negative comments about Spain from all the investors.

    [/quote]
    Except for me who’s none of the above.
    Yes I own , personally I wouldn’t but the wife wanted to buy. To clarify I wouldn’t own in any country . Motorhome for me.
    All the ‘best ‘ properties in ‘frontline’ positions are notworth buying as they are all at risk of the Ley de la costa , as it is being implemented at present. Anything within 500m of the high tide line has restrictions.
    0-100m eventual demolition. You might as well go & top yourself.
    100-200m nearly impossible but possible for a few, but required to meet strict conditions.
    200m -500m a reasonable chance of it staying up , providing it meets the requirements.
    That leaves the ones in the ‘bad’ locations eventually being prime !
    They’ve already surveyed everything from the French border to around Valencia & all of the Balearics & have instituted demolitions already. Usually by stealth & picking on the individuals rather than taking on large companies. Or have the envelopes been about again ?
    The way it’s being implemented , by stealth, would & should prevent anyone with half a brain from buying here at present. Under their current agenda & taking in to account that it’s retrospective,doesn’t matter that it was built 160 years ago, everything within 200m of the high tide line has got to go ! If they came out in the open with what they are up to there would be uproar.
    Me, I love it here . I’m not trying to be negative merely pointing out some of the pitfalls .
    We all know they’ve tightened up at the notaries it’s just different areas have different ways of implementing it.
    Here , what Rocker said is still possible, you’ve always had to prove where the money came from ,even years ago but it’s never stopped anyone getting around it.

  • #105798
    Profile photo of Mexberry
    Mexberry
    Participant

    Santander will sell or hold onto it’s portfolio of real estate until such time as there are benefits for their shareholders.
    Perhaps they are expecting some tax breaks or subsidy from the next government before they act? Maybe it has something to do with massaging financial statements so that this year’s bonuses will be healthy – but bankers wouldn’t do that now would they? Santander still promote themselves on Formula 1 racing cars, which does not come cheap, so perhaps things are not too bad in the bank after all.

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