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Did anyone see this evenings program?
They had two people who are suffering at the hands of the Spanish Law. The lady who permanently lives in Spain was having a road built through her land, taking part of her swimming pool and very close to her house. her and her husband have been told they have to pay 126,000euros for the privilege to cover the cost of the infrastructure!!The gentleman had bought and sold a previous property and then bought another property. He employed a Lawyer. The builder showed him what he was told was the building licence when in fact it turns out the paper he was shown was a receipt for the licence application!! His Lawyer said that is how it is done in Spain! His property is now deemed illegal and is due to be demolished.
This is the result of a two tier government (Local & Regional)and the fact that Spain can change the rules as and when they like. It means what once was legal, can be deemed illegal at any time.
Richard & Judy were incredulous that these things can happen especially as we are supposed to be part of the same club…the European Union!
There was an “expert” on the program also. He said prices were plummeting in Spain but it was probably a good time to buy! 🙄
Richard said David Milliband should get straight on a plane and start doing something to protect the 30,000+ expats from this outrageous behaviour.
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Oh no, will this madness ever end? This is destroying people lives. 👿
Have the Spanish gone completely insane? Do they really believe that they can maintain their standard of living without a healthy property market?
At least, at long last, these stories are becoming aired on ‘prime-time’ TV and the National Newspapers. Doesn’t it also suggest that the services of a Gestor are essential, so that buyers know exactly what is being said and what pieces of paper are being shown to them.
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Oh no, will this madness ever end? This is destroying people lives. 👿
Have the Spanish gone completely insane? Do they really believe that they can maintain their standard of living without a healthy property market?
At least, at long last, these stories are becoming aired on ‘prime-time’ TV and the National Newspapers. Doesn’t it also suggest that the services of a Gestor are essential, so that buyers know exactly what is being said and what pieces of paper are being shown to them.
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maximus wrote:Oh no, will this madness ever end? This is destroying people lives. 👿
Have the Spanish gone completely insane? Do they really believe that they can maintain their standard of living without a healthy property market?
At least, at long last, these stories are becoming aired on ‘prime-time’ TV and the National Newspapers. Doesn’t it also suggest that the services of a Gestor are essential, so that buyers know exactly what is being said and what pieces of paper are being shown to them.[/quote
Sorry but a gestor would be of no use concerning land grabs, they can help with much more mundane things like changing driving licences, obtaining copies of lost docs.
I would guess this couple were in the Valencia region,the dreaded LRAU law has been been replaced by LUV which is just as bad.
I do wish on these programmes that so called “experts” usually with a vested interest in selling properties were not there. I remember a couple of years ago I was listening to a radio programme from the UK there was an “expert” obviously from one of the larger estate agents she came out with all the usual old rubbish I was becoming more incensed by the minute tried to ring into the programme but without success. This was at the time when thousands of people were under threat of the LRAU law, this creature had mentioned nothing about it. I sent them an e mail complaining about their “experts”´bias and what about LRAU, to the credit of the presenter he read part of my e mail and asked the “expert” who glibly replied there was nothing to worry about with the LRAU it was a technical problem that would soon be sorted.
I just wish that these so called “experts” would justify their advice to buy instead of dismissing all problems and advising people to buy. I did n`t see the programme but assume the “expert” just said something like, “Prices are down this is a great time to pick up bargains” Who is going to buy these properties and soak up the 3million properties that are for sale.
Someone on this forum said are the Spanish mad?, it should be remembered that it is not just Spain where these things go on the Mediterranean mentality accepts corruption. Another disaster is waiting to happen in the new hot markets, I would n`t buy a property in Rumania,Bulgaria, Croatia if they were given to me ,I would probably end up having to pay twice as much through one scam or another.
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maximus wrote:Oh no, will this madness ever end? This is destroying people lives. 👿
Have the Spanish gone completely insane? Do they really believe that they can maintain their standard of living without a healthy property market?
At least, at long last, these stories are becoming aired on ‘prime-time’ TV and the National Newspapers. Doesn’t it also suggest that the services of a Gestor are essential, so that buyers know exactly what is being said and what pieces of paper are being shown to them.[/quote
Sorry but a gestor would be of no use concerning land grabs, they can help with much more mundane things like changing driving licences, obtaining copies of lost docs.
I would guess this couple were in the Valencia region,the dreaded LRAU law has been been replaced by LUV which is just as bad.
I do wish on these programmes that so called “experts” usually with a vested interest in selling properties were not there. I remember a couple of years ago I was listening to a radio programme from the UK there was an “expert” obviously from one of the larger estate agents she came out with all the usual old rubbish I was becoming more incensed by the minute tried to ring into the programme but without success. This was at the time when thousands of people were under threat of the LRAU law, this creature had mentioned nothing about it. I sent them an e mail complaining about their “experts”´bias and what about LRAU, to the credit of the presenter he read part of my e mail and asked the “expert” who glibly replied there was nothing to worry about with the LRAU it was a technical problem that would soon be sorted.
I just wish that these so called “experts” would justify their advice to buy instead of dismissing all problems and advising people to buy. I did n`t see the programme but assume the “expert” just said something like, “Prices are down this is a great time to pick up bargains” Who is going to buy these properties and soak up the 3million properties that are for sale.
Someone on this forum said are the Spanish mad?, it should be remembered that it is not just Spain where these things go on the Mediterranean mentality accepts corruption. Another disaster is waiting to happen in the new hot markets, I would n`t buy a property in Rumania,Bulgaria, Croatia if they were given to me ,I would probably end up having to pay twice as much through one scam or another.
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Gestores are not lawyers. They are social graduates normally.
Legal matters should be dealt with by lawyers, legal paperwork by them.
Why don’t you find yourself a good independent law firm from this SPI list of lawyers and law firms:
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/spanish_property_solutions_legal.htm
And if they are not good and independent they will be removed from that list pronto. 😈
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Gestores are not lawyers. They are social graduates normally.
Legal matters should be dealt with by lawyers, legal paperwork by them.
Why don’t you find yourself a good independent law firm from this SPI list of lawyers and law firms:
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/spanish_property_solutions_legal.htm
And if they are not good and independent they will be removed from that list pronto. 😈
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Hi Drakan,
Gestores are not lawyers. They are social graduates normally.
Legal matters should be dealt with by lawyers, legal paperwork by them.
You’re absolutely correct, of course, and I think we all appreciate that a Gestor is not a Lawyer. However, how many independent Lawyers are there is Spain who are fluent and Bilingual and who can translate these documents producing a clear and fair view for the purchaser? Probably not too many. So doesn’t’ this raise another question: If buyers are signing legal documents shouldn’t the services of a Gestor be rather important? How many clients have purchased properties only to find problems that were not fully explained during the buying process?
I am reasonably confident with the Spanish language but wouldn’t know where to begin with legalese. 🙄
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Hi Drakan,
Gestores are not lawyers. They are social graduates normally.
Legal matters should be dealt with by lawyers, legal paperwork by them.
You’re absolutely correct, of course, and I think we all appreciate that a Gestor is not a Lawyer. However, how many independent Lawyers are there is Spain who are fluent and Bilingual and who can translate these documents producing a clear and fair view for the purchaser? Probably not too many. So doesn’t’ this raise another question: If buyers are signing legal documents shouldn’t the services of a Gestor be rather important? How many clients have purchased properties only to find problems that were not fully explained during the buying process?
I am reasonably confident with the Spanish language but wouldn’t know where to begin with legalese. 🙄
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I’d just like to pass on something regarding Gestors that was mentioned to me some time ago by a contact who knew of someone who had employed a gestor when buying property.
I realise that this is hearsay but I do think that it has a basis in fact.
A couple in Gandia were advised by friends to consider using a gestor to help with their intended purchase.
The gestor not only found what he considered to be possible flaws in the proposed contract and documentation relating to the particular property at the time but he also passed on the fact that their lawyer was the brother-in-law of the developer.
The couple confronted the lawyer who admitted his relationship and eventually agreed to recommend an impartial lawyer but the question arises as to whether he would have mentioned the conflict of interest had the couple not used a gestor?
To my mind, the vast majority of lawyers are honest, whether they be Spanish or British but it is the rogues and incompetants that tar their collective reputations so surely any aid applied in conjunction with a lawyer is probably worth considering, unless you have access to local knowledge by some other means?
stevmk2 -
I’d just like to pass on something regarding Gestors that was mentioned to me some time ago by a contact who knew of someone who had employed a gestor when buying property.
I realise that this is hearsay but I do think that it has a basis in fact.
A couple in Gandia were advised by friends to consider using a gestor to help with their intended purchase.
The gestor not only found what he considered to be possible flaws in the proposed contract and documentation relating to the particular property at the time but he also passed on the fact that their lawyer was the brother-in-law of the developer.
The couple confronted the lawyer who admitted his relationship and eventually agreed to recommend an impartial lawyer but the question arises as to whether he would have mentioned the conflict of interest had the couple not used a gestor?
To my mind, the vast majority of lawyers are honest, whether they be Spanish or British but it is the rogues and incompetants that tar their collective reputations so surely any aid applied in conjunction with a lawyer is probably worth considering, unless you have access to local knowledge by some other means?
stevmk2 -
@maximus wrote:
Hi Drakan,
Gestores are not lawyers. They are social graduates normally.
Legal matters should be dealt with by lawyers, legal paperwork by them.
However, how many independent Lawyers are there is Spain who are fluent and Bilingual and who can translate these documents producing a clear and fair view for the purchaser? Probably not too many.
I’ve never met a colleague who is perfectly bilingual in English, that is almost impossible. Foreign languages are not our strength.
French was the second language we were taught in school only younger generations have learnt English at school. We have had to take private English classes to catch up with the market. My written English is ok but my accent is very thick and at times unintelligible. Younger Spanish generations have had it easier when it comes to learning languages. Bilingual Spanish professionals are hard to come by and normally work in Madrid, London, New York …
Gestores are complimentary to a lawyers job but no substitution for it. Much like a construction worker is very skilled and knowledged in his business but he is not an architect.
I’m sure anyone can come up with 100 stories on how their Spanish lawyers failed them to some extent or other. However this doesn’t negate that gestores are not lawyers -normally- and shouldn’t be regarded as a feasible alternative to employing the professional services of a good independent law firm.
All these problems and horror stories which are posted in forums such as SPI always stem from the fact that people engage the services of a lawyer who is tied up in a professional relationship with whom he is being recommended by.
The lesson: seek independent legal firms and avoid law firms recommended or who work very closely to real estate agencies. In SPI there is a list of reliable law firms. Obviously the list is very incomplete and there are hundreds of good law firms which are left out (including mine). But then again, there shouldn’t be any tainted law firms included either and if there are they will be removed.
The whole point of SPI for me is to weed out bad professionals from the market (thus avoiding horror stories) and point to those which are good and trustworthy and recommend them to foreigners purchasing property in Spain. We are here to help others avert pitfalls and restore confidence in our legal profession. When I joined this forum years ago posters -in general- I’d say almost despised us Spanish lawyers. This is not good for us and action must be taken to readdress this issue. We are here to stay so we want this to work out for everyone.
In the long run the market will rebound in Spain and this time round people will have powerful tools at their service such as SPI to help them navegate through the Spanish property minefield successfully. It is very important that that the act is cleaned up by the industry itself to restore confidence back into the Spanish market which right now is at an all-time low, nevermind a US recession. I’m the first one who has a vested interest in people buying property in my country but doing it right and not with the “anything goes” attitude which has marred our industry, otherwise it’s as we say in Spanish “pan para hoy pero hambre para mañana”.
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@maximus wrote:
Hi Drakan,
Gestores are not lawyers. They are social graduates normally.
Legal matters should be dealt with by lawyers, legal paperwork by them.
However, how many independent Lawyers are there is Spain who are fluent and Bilingual and who can translate these documents producing a clear and fair view for the purchaser? Probably not too many.
I’ve never met a colleague who is perfectly bilingual in English, that is almost impossible. Foreign languages are not our strength.
French was the second language we were taught in school only younger generations have learnt English at school. We have had to take private English classes to catch up with the market. My written English is ok but my accent is very thick and at times unintelligible. Younger Spanish generations have had it easier when it comes to learning languages. Bilingual Spanish professionals are hard to come by and normally work in Madrid, London, New York …
Gestores are complimentary to a lawyers job but no substitution for it. Much like a construction worker is very skilled and knowledged in his business but he is not an architect.
I’m sure anyone can come up with 100 stories on how their Spanish lawyers failed them to some extent or other. However this doesn’t negate that gestores are not lawyers -normally- and shouldn’t be regarded as a feasible alternative to employing the professional services of a good independent law firm.
All these problems and horror stories which are posted in forums such as SPI always stem from the fact that people engage the services of a lawyer who is tied up in a professional relationship with whom he is being recommended by.
The lesson: seek independent legal firms and avoid law firms recommended or who work very closely to real estate agencies. In SPI there is a list of reliable law firms. Obviously the list is very incomplete and there are hundreds of good law firms which are left out (including mine). But then again, there shouldn’t be any tainted law firms included either and if there are they will be removed.
The whole point of SPI for me is to weed out bad professionals from the market (thus avoiding horror stories) and point to those which are good and trustworthy and recommend them to foreigners purchasing property in Spain. We are here to help others avert pitfalls and restore confidence in our legal profession. When I joined this forum years ago posters -in general- I’d say almost despised us Spanish lawyers. This is not good for us and action must be taken to readdress this issue. We are here to stay so we want this to work out for everyone.
In the long run the market will rebound in Spain and this time round people will have powerful tools at their service such as SPI to help them navegate through the Spanish property minefield successfully. It is very important that that the act is cleaned up by the industry itself to restore confidence back into the Spanish market which right now is at an all-time low, nevermind a US recession. I’m the first one who has a vested interest in people buying property in my country but doing it right and not with the “anything goes” attitude which has marred our industry, otherwise it’s as we say in Spanish “pan para hoy pero hambre para mañana”.
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A good post Drakan.
All these problems and horror stories which are posted in forums such as SPI always stem from the fact that people engage the services of a lawyer who is tied up in a professional relationship with whom he is being recommended by.
That is true in many cases. Since forums like SPI have been around, (sadly not when we were buying! 😥 ) people are better informed.
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A good post Drakan.
All these problems and horror stories which are posted in forums such as SPI always stem from the fact that people engage the services of a lawyer who is tied up in a professional relationship with whom he is being recommended by.
That is true in many cases. Since forums like SPI have been around, (sadly not when we were buying! 😥 ) people are better informed.
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😥
Be very careful about Land Grab Draconian Laws even in Andalucia not just Valencia region. It is happening in and around Ronda now and looks like spreading from Malaga towards Alhaurin and other areas.
Spain´s Government and Town Councils are completely mad, it further damages any credibility in their country.
Sorry not to agree for once with Drakan that the market will bounce back, I don´t see that happening all the time things like this happen, and, property is still up to 30% overpriced, still too many crooked Developers, Estate Agents (often British), and their hand-in-glove crooked lawyers, plus the cost of living is rising fast, and the exchange rate is so poor.
Is Spain also syphoning off much of the EU funding for it´s roads because many of these need major repairs too?
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😥
Be very careful about Land Grab Draconian Laws even in Andalucia not just Valencia region. It is happening in and around Ronda now and looks like spreading from Malaga towards Alhaurin and other areas.
Spain´s Government and Town Councils are completely mad, it further damages any credibility in their country.
Sorry not to agree for once with Drakan that the market will bounce back, I don´t see that happening all the time things like this happen, and, property is still up to 30% overpriced, still too many crooked Developers, Estate Agents (often British), and their hand-in-glove crooked lawyers, plus the cost of living is rising fast, and the exchange rate is so poor.
Is Spain also syphoning off much of the EU funding for it´s roads because many of these need major repairs too?
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Angie, I think property prices anywhere will generally come back when there is a major fall, maybe not as high as previously. The prices in Spain have been very high over the last 5 years. Maybe they will come back to a more realistic and sustainable level. Who knows though, when that will be? Likewise the stock market. It always bounces back…eventually. 🙂
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Angie, I think property prices anywhere will generally come back when there is a major fall, maybe not as high as previously. The prices in Spain have been very high over the last 5 years. Maybe they will come back to a more realistic and sustainable level. Who knows though, when that will be? Likewise the stock market. It always bounces back…eventually. 🙂
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@angie wrote:
Sorry not to agree for once with Drakan that the market will bounce back, I don´t see that happening all the time things like this happen, and, property is still up to 30% overpriced, still too many crooked Developers, Estate Agents (often British), and their hand-in-glove crooked lawyers, plus the cost of living is rising fast, and the exchange rate is so poor.
I believe we are both saying the same thing Angie. Tha market will rebound years away from now. I don’t expect this market to pick up at least before 5 years from now.
Prices will rebound by more than 15% p.a. -mark my words- in the next real estate cycle in the meantime prices will continue to fall until the market bottoms out which it hasn’t yet. Economy is cyclical and has always happened before and will continue to happen. Nihil novit sub sole …
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@angie wrote:
Sorry not to agree for once with Drakan that the market will bounce back, I don´t see that happening all the time things like this happen, and, property is still up to 30% overpriced, still too many crooked Developers, Estate Agents (often British), and their hand-in-glove crooked lawyers, plus the cost of living is rising fast, and the exchange rate is so poor.
I believe we are both saying the same thing Angie. Tha market will rebound years away from now. I don’t expect this market to pick up at least before 5 years from now.
Prices will rebound by more than 15% p.a. -mark my words- in the next real estate cycle in the meantime prices will continue to fall until the market bottoms out which it hasn’t yet. Economy is cyclical and has always happened before and will continue to happen. Nihil novit sub sole …
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” All these problems and horror stories which are posted in forums such as SPI always stem from the fact that people engage the services of a lawyer who is tied up in a professional relationship with whom he is being recommended by.”
1)As many of you on the forum will know that when you buy in UK. The Solicitor also acts for the Lender.
2) If you buy of Plan the Developers has a list of Lawyers/mortgage advisers.
Why, the same problems as in Spain do not arise in UK ????.
I am aware that in most professions there are blurred boundaries. These boundaries have to be managed with the clients interest as paramount as the client is paying for this service amid relying on competence. Any serious deviation from it and the Law society deal with the matter very firmly & decisively.
Yes, there are rouges in all professions they are a small minority. In the case of Spain they are much more than small majority.
This has brought the profession into serious disrepute and I once again blame the “Colegio de abagados” for not holding the profession in the higest esteem.
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” All these problems and horror stories which are posted in forums such as SPI always stem from the fact that people engage the services of a lawyer who is tied up in a professional relationship with whom he is being recommended by.”
1)As many of you on the forum will know that when you buy in UK. The Solicitor also acts for the Lender.
2) If you buy of Plan the Developers has a list of Lawyers/mortgage advisers.
Why, the same problems as in Spain do not arise in UK ????.
I am aware that in most professions there are blurred boundaries. These boundaries have to be managed with the clients interest as paramount as the client is paying for this service amid relying on competence. Any serious deviation from it and the Law society deal with the matter very firmly & decisively.
Yes, there are rouges in all professions they are a small minority. In the case of Spain they are much more than small majority.
This has brought the profession into serious disrepute and I once again blame the “Colegio de abagados” for not holding the profession in the higest esteem.
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@shakeel wrote:
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Yes, there are rouges in all professions they are a small minority. In the case of Spain they are much more than small majority.This has brought the profession into serious disrepute and I once again blame the “Colegio de abagados” for not holding the profession in the higest esteem.
Exactly. Lawyers continue to be added to the Lawyer Complaints Document that I’m compiling, & some of the same names keep coming up. These are serious complaints & serious breaches of conduct & practice, some of which have been reported to the Colegio de Abogados in Spanish, who do nothing to address this, let alone acknowledge receipt of complaints. I’m talking to some at the moment with a view to taking these ‘lawyers’ to court in Class Action. Although I know the Spanish Courts tend to prefer individual cases, maybe in these instances it would be more powerful & appropriate.
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@shakeel wrote:
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Yes, there are rouges in all professions they are a small minority. In the case of Spain they are much more than small majority.This has brought the profession into serious disrepute and I once again blame the “Colegio de abagados” for not holding the profession in the higest esteem.
Exactly. Lawyers continue to be added to the Lawyer Complaints Document that I’m compiling, & some of the same names keep coming up. These are serious complaints & serious breaches of conduct & practice, some of which have been reported to the Colegio de Abogados in Spanish, who do nothing to address this, let alone acknowledge receipt of complaints. I’m talking to some at the moment with a view to taking these ‘lawyers’ to court in Class Action. Although I know the Spanish Courts tend to prefer individual cases, maybe in these instances it would be more powerful & appropriate.
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I agree lawyers are recommended in the UK – whan I was an agent in Lorth London I always recommended the same guy to buyers or sellers if they asked, but the reason was because he was so good with clients and explained the system to them. They could always reach him and I never heard anyone complain about him
He never paid me a backhander or offered me a commission for the referral – like lawyers do here. He took me out to dinner once a year at Wheelers in Hampstead as a thank you and that was it.
Here lawyers come in quite regularly offering their services and in the same breath a pecentage of their fees!
I always say the same thing – discount the fee and give the kickback to the client!
I have 3 guys I recommend because I KNOW they will stand on the side of their client, even against me if necessary, and give the client their best advise and honest support.
Thats what I need and in turn my clients trust me too.
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I agree lawyers are recommended in the UK – whan I was an agent in Lorth London I always recommended the same guy to buyers or sellers if they asked, but the reason was because he was so good with clients and explained the system to them. They could always reach him and I never heard anyone complain about him
He never paid me a backhander or offered me a commission for the referral – like lawyers do here. He took me out to dinner once a year at Wheelers in Hampstead as a thank you and that was it.
Here lawyers come in quite regularly offering their services and in the same breath a pecentage of their fees!
I always say the same thing – discount the fee and give the kickback to the client!
I have 3 guys I recommend because I KNOW they will stand on the side of their client, even against me if necessary, and give the client their best advise and honest support.
Thats what I need and in turn my clients trust me too.
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@Claire wrote:
Richard said David Milliband should get straight on a plane and start doing something to protect the 30,000+ expats from this outrageous behaviour.
Why would the UK goverment want to do that
They want people to lose out they want this bad publicity and most importantly they want to stop people like me paying my taxes in Spain and not the UK
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Senior Nicks: Your Taxes are being paid by the Poles. What the Government does not state is that their is flight of capital and intellect.
Highly skilled and experienced people are leaving only to be replaced by Eastern Europeans. Whislt we need their skills, we certainly don’t need 600,000 plumbers.
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Drakan said:
“Gestores are complimentary to a lawyers job but no substitution for it. Much like a construction worker is very skilled and knowledged in his business but he is not an architect.”Drakan,
I am not advocating that buyers do not use lawyers.
Far from it – all that I said was, with their sometimes unique sources of local information, gestors can assist in the process.
As you said, they are complimentary, but no substitute.I hope that is now crystal-clear.
stevmk2 -
I agree we are generally singing from the same hymn sheet, however I think Spain has seriously shot itself in the foot with all the property corruption and degradation of it´s coastline, that´s why I don´t think it will ever bounce back to current levels for many many years.
I mean, what gives the right for a Gov´t to allow whole hillsides to be cut off just for more tacky development, the EU should fine Spain for such practices? Until they redress these problems even rebuild the landscape, knock down the prison block flats etc, it´s never going to be the good investment again nor beautiful place to live.
The market in Spain is still 30% overpriced for awful bog standard build quality, it needs to drop a lot further yet.
My opinion for what it´s worth.
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