Re : Court cases

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This topic contains 195 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 9 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #53072
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    Anonymous
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    I have just heard that my court case for my claim for compensation on my apt in La Reserva has been set for Oct 2008. Considering i invested money into this in April 2003,it is going to be a painfully long wait.Has anyone else received any dates for there cases to be heard or any news of any that have been resolved to date?

  • #73889
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    Anonymous
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    I have a court case underway in which I am claiming my deposit back due to the developer being two years late with completion of the apartment, (and my guess is that it will probably not be finished for another six months).

    My solicitor began trying to recover the deposit from the developer October 2006. The developer did not respond at all. We then began the legal process in March 2007. The developer has decided to fight against our claim on the grounds that it is not his fault the building work is late.

    On 17th July my solicitor informed me that the case has been programmed by the court for 1st July 2008.

  • #73906
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    Karen
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    I assume you have both had first hearings – how long has it taken between the first hearing and court case
    I have a first hearing 17th Sept and am I right in thinking it will be 12 mths later at least before court case ??

  • #73912
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    Anonymous
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    Hi Karen,

    As far as I know we have not had a hearing yet. I must ask you to forgive my ignorance but I am not well aquainted with the workings of the Spanish court system.

    My understanding is that; we made our claim, (for the return of the deposit). The court sent the papers to the developer and he has decided to defend the case rather than return the deposit. The court have therefore programmed the case for 1st. July 2008.

    I hope I have understood correctly.

    David

  • #73913
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    Anonymous
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    David – Best to check with your lawyer if 1/8/08 is for your preliminary hearing, or whether this has already taken place.

    Steven – I sent you a PM several weeks ago but it’s still in my Out Box. I know of one case at La Reserva where the deposit was ordered to be paid back by the Judge at the Preliminary Hearing, but am told this is the only such case so far & was “highly unusual”. I’ve had the Preliminary Hearing (LR) & am now waiting for the trial at the end of this year – nine months later & over four years since paying. Have you had your ‘preliminary hearing’ yet ❓

  • #73915
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    Anonymous
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    Karen / Suzanne

    I have checked again my solicitors letter and it does in fact say that the Preliminary hearing has been fixed by the court for 1st July 2008.

    David

  • #73918
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    Karen
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    From my limited knowledge of Spanish systems it would appear that it is taking 4months or more after 1st hearing to go to court
    Anybody who has any further info would be useful

  • #73919
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    @davidAH wrote:

    The developer has decided to fight against our claim on the grounds that it is not his fault the building work is late.

    On 17th July my solicitor informed me that the case has been programmed by the court for 1st July 2008.

    Hello David,
    I think the developer is legally obliged to send a notice explaining why there is a delay, at the time. July 2008 is such a long time to wait. Really hope things get settled then for you rather than having to wait for a later trial.

  • #73920
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    David A H
    Similar situation as many of us I feel
    1 Would depend not only on the development but on what phase it was on and what reasons are given for the delay,seems a very grey area at the moment.
    2 Depends also the size of the developers pockets as to if he can finance your contracted property before the banks have their say and then you may loose your money anyway.
    3 On a brighter note the time taken to sort the mess out just may allow the property value on your development to increase as it matures and they then may be very happy to give monies back and sell on as is happening on one or two developments already
    4 To rely just on late completion may well prove a testing and costly experience on some developments due in main to the corrupt legal system.

    Wish you all the luck and the experiences gained on this forum can only help, however it can not replace the professional advice, being treated on a case by case basis.

    Frank

  • #73925
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    Anonymous
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    Just to add more gloom…

    Some of us have have already been through the court system and been heard at each stage between March 2006 and October 2006. We have been served by an extremely good lawyer and been backed by a legitimate bank guarantee.

    Further, in October 2006 WE WON our case. Our monies were deposited in the court by the bank and we waited hopefully for its rightful return to us.

    It was then, in early November 2006, that the bank appealed and a date was set six months down the line for the appeal hearing (May 2007). Just five months down the line the COURT POSTPONED THE APPEAL HEARING and a second date was set for a further six months time (24 September 2007).

    As we creep through August I am not holding my breath. Who knows? We may get a second postponement. The judge might overturn the initial ruling and declare in the bank’s favour. It seems anything can happen and nothing is certain. We speak of corrupt lawyers – but it’s the system itself that needs cleansing.

    Hey, hey! The sun is shining here in England as I write and the soft fruits in the garden are delicious. For today I take my comforts where I can.

    Good luck.

    roots

  • #73936
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    Karen
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    I presume as a Bank was involved you were claiming under bank guarantees ?
    Would the stuation by worse / more delayed if bank guarantees were not held (legal question)
    It seems disgusting that this can happen when you have won – is there nothing you can do but wait. I wish you all best and hope you will have your monies return soon

  • #73938
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    Seems to me that there is no ‘guarantee’ with Bank Guarantees in Spain. With or without one, most are having to battle it out in Court. Total disgrace.

  • #73940
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    Anonymous
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    Roots? Not more bad news the facts are is that the legal system in Spain is corrupt and sadly that’s a fact that we need to get used too. The law is being flouted everyday regarding late completions and occupancy licences/lack of getting what we were contracted to buy.
    Hardly going to change much in the medium term as the facts are that they cant afford to play fair now the corruption is bedded so far into the Spanish enconomy.
    In any event the corruption continues with some solicitors continuing the gravy train ,now with different hats on taking cases they know they will never win so win,win,win I am afraid (bills need to be paid, lifestyles need to be maintained).
    Took your money without the slightest hint of remorse before does anyone really think that these same people are to be trusted again. :?:Oh I have a really good solicitor and he or she is looking after me .) dream on they want your money yet again,end of.
    The sad situation is that even if you have completed you have avoided loosing your deposit you still loose in real terms.
    If you don’t complete your in the hands of the systems that’s hardly renowned for justice and you loose ,full stop.
    Even the banking system should hold their heads in shame as we were made to feel confident that if all else failed we could trust the guarantee.
    These same banks that are now buying up financial interests in the U.K which personally makes me sick as does the whole greedy,corrupt system which has taken such a heavy toll on so many.
    WE WERE TAKEN FOR THE BIGGEST RIDE OF OUR LIVES AND ITS A CASE OF WHICH ROAD YOU ARE NOW ON AS TO WHERE YOU END UP.
    ITS FRIGHTENING THAT AT THE MOMENT NO ONES STEERING SO PREPARE FOR AN ACCIDENT.

    Good luck to all.

    Frank

  • #73942
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    Anonymous
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    I’ve checked with lawyer and my case is still to go to the preliminary hearing in Oct 08. This leaves almost certainly at least another 6 months before a trial. Has anyone been able to settle out of court with a developer yet?

  • #73943
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    @Just Frank wrote:

    Even the banking system should hold their heads in shame as we were made to feel confident that if all else failed we could trust the guarantee.Frank

    Just to put things into perspective – the bank guarantee is a guarantee that if the developer fails to “complete” the bank will make good any losses incurred. The holder of a guarantee does need to “prove” their case in law. It is not to be regarded as an open cheque book. The chances are that the bank guarantees are in turn secured by Directors Personal Guarantees which the Bank will, in turn, rely upon to recover their own out of pocket payments. The Bank needs to be seen to offer a defence otherwise they would be unable to recover under the DPG’s.

    This is actually no different than a UK situation with Bank G’tees supported by DPG’s

    The Bank are probably paying lip service to the system – at the end of the day they will pay. They need to be seen to have gone through the system to then in turn recover under the DPG’s. Do not think for one minute that a Bank G’tee stands alone – the Bank will have a recource!!!

  • #73944
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    @Just Frank wrote:

    the facts are is that the legal system in Spain is corrupt

    Just read your post again. The actual system is NOT corrupt. However, the legal system in Spain is only 30 years old and is still finding it’s feet!

    In the UK, most property / contract issues are dealt with in common law which dates back to 1066 and is well established. Here in Spain, post Franco, the legal system has been totally re-established. There is in general, NO common law – the Spanish have tried to re-write a constitution / legal system with all “common law” pre the demise of Franco going out the window. The UK legal system is 1,000 years old whereas the Spanish legal system is only 30 years old. Hell – the Spanish have moved from a dictatorship to democracy at the speed of lightening. The system may not be perfect but in some ways is better than the UK.

    If the UK had fallen to Hitler (a mate of Franco) where would it’s legal system be now?

    Over the past few weeks I have come to realise that this forum has 1200 members of which 1,000 have gripes because they have fallen foul of the “system” in Spain, either because they did not appoint their own independent lawyer (again common sense) or they have failed to make the “fat profit” they were promised on off plan sales. Let’s all get real – there are something like 500,000 expat households in Spain of which 1,000 have a problem with the system (either as a result of their own failure to protect their interests or because their greed was not met with results). What about the 499,000 expat households who do not have issues? The “Price Crash” being hyped up for Spain – blame Sir Trevor and his journalistic misrepresentation of the truth coupled with the comments on forums such as this. There is no price crash, there is an adjustment in market prices brought about by the naivity of those that beleved in the principal of BOGOF – you cannot buy two appartments and expect to sell one before completion to fund the other. Pyramid selling was outlawed in the 80’s in both the USA and UK!! Would those in this forum that have problems with lawyers have used Barrett’s solicitors in the UK if buying from them? NO.

    Sorry, but IMO, most of the problems I see within the forum have been caused by greed coupled with people leaving their brains on their seats when leaving their EasyJet flight. Do not do in Spain what you would not have done in the UK and don’t think you can “pull one over” the Spanish!!

    At the end of the day, if you are offered a “deal” that seems to good to be true, it will be!! BUYER BEWARE – simple 1,000 year old principal of [English] Law and common sense!!

    It really does annoy me to read continuous stories on the principal of “My British agent said I would make €€€€€€ with no risk and now I find myself out of pocket”. OK – last week I met a guy in a Soho Pub who gave me a lead into this great money making investment. His brother in Glasgow has a cousin in Cardiff who has the rights to the use of the 2010 London Olympic marketing rights. I can have a monopoly franchise for the rights in selling all merchandise for Norfolk and it is only £50,000. Should make 100% return if I keep the rights or 50% if I sell next week. Tell you what, the guy must be 100% because he told me that his lawyer will sew everything up for us at double speed because someone else is also interested but the guy would rather me have those rights – I can have the franchise next Monday on payment of the cleared money and his lawyer will make sure everything is OK.

    Why does anyone on this forum believe that they have a right to make a profit from any deal in Spain that the Spanish have passed up on? If the Spanish have left the “deal” for the Brits then surely the Brits should think again?

    I love Spain and the Spanish people and it annoys me to read the opinion of Brits that feel they have the right to walk into the country and make a profit at the expense of the “locals” and who then complain that they were “caught” by a British REA!

  • #73945
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    [quote
    Over the past few weeks I have come to realise that this forum has 1200 members of which 1,000 have gripes…..
    [/quote]

    Paulandlyn – Where did you get these figures from ❓

  • #73946
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    I may regret this 😕 , but I felt the need to reply to paulandlyn’s message.

    Just to say at the start that my involvement in the Spanish property market is that I have a piece of land in the north of Spain. I have never been involved in buying property in the south.

    However, as far as I can make out, people on this forum are unhappy not because they didn’t make an easy buck, but rather because the contracts they had made were not fulfilled. If I buy a tin in Tesco’s and it says baked beans on the outside then I expect a full portion of baked beans on the inside. In exactly the same way if somebody signs a contract for a legal 90m2 apartment completed by a certain date then they should expect to receive that. If they don’t (or the tin of beans actually contains dog food) then they should expect recourse to, and the support of, the law. Of course the buyer should take care but ultimately it is the law (and contract) breaker who should be punished. Tesco can’t tell me “buyer beware” and tell me to get lost. We have moved on since 1000 years ago and now have consumer law to protect buyers.

    Even if I had been careless or naive, what does it matter if the other party has acted illegally? It may be stupid to walk around with a large amount of cash but if you are robbed then you should still expect the help of the police.

    Sure, if this was Somalia, Iraq or some other lawless place then perhaps it would be less surprising that such things happen. However, we are talking about a long standing member of the European Union and we should be able to expect the law to be upheld. To suggest that people are stupid to complain about corruption and the lack of enforcement of the law is unfair.

    As a final point, what does it matter that it is “only” 1000 people (although the real figure is likely to be much more). For these 1000 it is a heartbreaking situation.

  • #73947
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    For all of you who is not satisfied with the Spanish legal system/structure. Are you aware that:

    1) Spanish developers whose offices are in UK, can be taken to Courts in UK, e.g Aifos office near Trafalgar Square or Fadesa in Covent Garden.

    2) Any company in a EU, can be taken to Courts in any member Country. ( I am 85% certain of this )Please clarify this one.

  • #73948
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    Whilst IMHO Paulandlyn is off the mark in many of his comment surely also Bradness you cannot compare buying a tin of beans of the shelf in Tesco to buying an off plan property in Spain.

    Delays in new build construction are perhaps inevitable, we waited 6 months overdue for a new house in the UK that was plauged with snagging problems, many of which I had to do myself from despair of waiting.

    As for claim made relative to projected capital growth, whilst no doubt they were perhaps embellished a little, both buyers, vendors, developers, builders, agents, solicitors etal, all believed that property prices in Spain would continue to enjoy double digit growth. There is of course a caveat that anyone still making these claims is blatently telling porkies.

  • #73949
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    Bradness – no need for regrets. You made an excellent post in response to one that is misguided and ill-researched. The fact they posted this diatribe on a thread where many are simply seeking information/help re. their stressful court cases is not only tactless, it’s tacky.

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    Let’s all get real – there are something like 500,000 expat households in Spain of which 1,000 have a problem with the system…..

    …..and they’re ALL (apparently) on the SPI forum. 🙄
    And only 1,000 have a problem?
    Just look at the number of illegal licences, multiply all the individual apartments per development…..and make sure you hit the right buttons on the calculator.
    P.S. Don’t forget to add the Land Grab victims – they certainly have a problem with ‘the system’ don’t you think?

    The system IS corrupt, it’s rotton to the core due to many involved who are simply self-serving greedy individuals with no morals/scruples whatsoever. And I include many developers, REA’s, lawyers, notaries, mayors and so-called ‘Town Officials’. Anyone who doesn’t realise this is in total denial in my opinion. Personally, I would even go so far as to throw in the odd judge.

    Jim – on the surface, the can of beans example may seem ‘off the mark’ but I do think taken purely as an analogy it is spot on. You pay your good money for something (unlike a can of beans, there is even a written contract), so one does – rightfully and legally – expect to receive what you paid for. Six month delays I totally agree are inevitable for new builds, but two to four years down the line with still no ‘legal’ property to complete on as in many cases is unacceptable.

  • #73950
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    I still think that the baked bean example is appropriate. If I get Tesco to deliver my tin then they agree to do so within a certain time limit. If they exceed that agreed time then, if I want, I am entitled to cancel that contract. (Perhaps I can’t wait any longer of my beans on toast and pop to Spar to buy it. 😀 ) The point I am trying to make is that a contract must mean something.

    What I hate is all this talk of “buyer beware”. This implies that it is fine to lie, cheat and steal and if somebody falls for your deception then it is their fault. This is not how a modern country can function. If the bus says ‘City Centre’ then I expect it to go to the city centre. This same expectation that contracts should be fair (see The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999) and legally enforceable is what keeps society together. Is paulandlyn telling me that I must not necessarily expect my bus to go where it is claimed or for my tin to contain beans, and that if cheated it is my fault for not being enough “aware” and that I have no redress.

    These are trivial examples, but on this forum people are talking about their homes and life-savings. Obviously building contacts are much more complicated but this is part of the problem. How can Joe Public be expected to know that the contract (with provision for reasonable delays) is fair? They can’t, and so rely on lawyers to help and guide! This is another contract between us and our lawyer. Ultimately we have to rely on the law to protect us and come to our aid when we are being cheated. People on this forum are not complaining about people they met in a bar but about companies and lawyers who have entering into a contract.

    It is not unreasonable to expect a fair building contract (fair to both sides) and for the law to support you if it all goes wrong.

  • #73951
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    “The legal system in Spain is only 30 years old and is still finding it’s feet!”

    It doesn’t matter how good the recipe is, or how long it takes to cook. If the chef is lousy – the food he serves up will be too.
    My analogy for the day.

  • #73952
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    In most Countries building projects gets delayed, e.g weather either lack of materials. ( China and India is sucking in cement and steal )

    A caring developer will look at the following

    1) Keeping buyers informed.

    2) Providing rational reasons for the delay ( Not I had take my dog for a three months walk)

    3) Provide something tangible as a goodwill to buyers

    4) Not use the delay for financial gain e.g reduce the built area, reduce a swimming or two, not instal white goods etc.

    I am buying in Morocco ( I had made sure that the developer is not Spanish ) My completion date is September 09, any delay I will be compensated by 1% for every month delayed.

  • #73953
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    Re. court case delays, it was back in April that the Andalucian High Court’s annual report warned about ever-growing delays because of an increased case load. They acknowledged much of the extra work is said to be coming from town planning cases and from those affecting foreigners.

    I can only see the situation worsening with courts getting more clogged, especially with each case seemingly going automatically to appeal – regardless of how much a blatant ‘breach of contract’ there is.

  • #73954
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    Anonymous
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    Paul and Lynn
    The forum is for people to put their points of view and you will have to forgive that my opinion of your post is little more saying that Rocco and his corrupt legal system should held in such high esteem is like saying that Mira Hindley should have been allowed to open a children’s nursery.
    As I said there are no winners and conmen are conmen so lets not start making excuses that they have only had 30 years etc etc
    The sad thing is that even if you own a property in Spain your still a looser as they will never be trusted again, nor should we allow them. Property prices and investments will take more to recover due to the corruption in the system so you’re a victim like the rest, like it or not.
    If you can’t see what’s clearly evident or your post was some sort of sick joke, please forgive me for not agreeing with you.

    Frank

  • #73960
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    Paul and Lynn
    Read you posting again ❓
    Dont suppose you have the name of the chap down the pup from Glasgow that has a cousin in Cardiff that has the total marketing rights to the 2010 U.K Olympics do you.
    Sounds a good earner 😀

    Frank

  • #73963
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    @shakeel wrote:

    For all of you who is not satisfied with the Spanish legal system/structure. Are you aware that:

    1) Spanish developers whose offices are in UK, can be taken to Courts in UK, e.g Aifos office near Trafalgar Square or Fadesa in Covent Garden.

    2) Any company in a EU, can be taken to Courts in any member Country. ( I am 85% certain of this )Please clarify this one.

    Re. point No 2 above please note that:

    “……if you are obliged to institute proceedings as a buyer of a good or service coming directly from another Member State, you have the right to sue before the courts of either your country of residence or that of the other party when you are in one of the following situations: the conclusion of the contract was preceded by advertising or a specific invitation made to you in your country of residence and you have taken the steps necessary for the conclusion of the contract in that country.

    …..However, you should know that in the case of disputes over contracts for the purchase of immovable property (flats, villas, etc.), only the courts of the country in which the property is situated have jurisdiction.

    The above information can be found on EU’s official site:
    http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/services/eu-guide/enforcing-rights/index_en.html#11444_10

  • #73964
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    paulandlyn, I’m with you on this one, it is just the Brits who drop clangers never like to admit.
    I have said it before, who in their right mind (that is if they have one) goes to a foreign Country (even if it is in Europe) and expects the same laws as in UK?
    “P.S. Don’t forget to add the Land Grab victims – they certainly have a problem with ‘the system’ don’t you think” – Yes, but it is the law of the land, like it or not. They chose to buy into it (ignorance or not).
    “The system IS corrupt, it’s rotton to the core due to many involved who are simply self-serving greedy individuals with no morals/scruples whatsoever. And I include many developers, REA’s, lawyers, notaries, mayors and so-called ‘Town Officials'” – Yup and still plane loads of Brits flying out to buy into it!!!!
    “Delays in new build construction are perhaps inevitable” – Need not be, but a good ploy to hold your money longer and gather interest – Yup, yet again a fact that is accepted by the Brits. Pay up and expect and accept delays, and pay for it!!!!

  • #73965
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    Anonymous
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    “The system IS corrupt, it’s rotton to the core due to many involved who are simply self-serving greedy individuals with no morals/scruples whatsoever. And I include many developers, REA’s, lawyers, notaries, mayors and so-called ‘Town Officials'” – Yup and still plane loads of Brits flying out to buy into it!!!!

    I thought you were with Paul and Lyn on this one :shock:……they think ‘The actual system is NOT corrupt’.
    Or are you just with Paul and Lyn in enjoying being unnecessarily offensive to all those who have been scammed by one or more of the above individuals?

  • #73966
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    Anonymous
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    Revised my posting to M.G /her after reading his contributions to the forum.

    Think I will agree that I was one of the stupid ones if he/she agrees that he/she has an arrogant attitude.

    Frank

  • #73967
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    Anonymous
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    To quote Michael Cashman MEP:

    “Under EU public procurement law, which regulates the development of land, it is clear to me that Spain is breaching her obligations in Valencia and probably in other regions as well” continued Michael.

    “This progress came about as a result of people power and shows that the EU can and does stand up for its citizens fundamental rights. I hope that the Spanish national government will take this legal and political opportunity to resolve the problems as soon as possible.”

    Spain now has 2 months to provide a satisfactory response to the Commission’s justifiable concerns. If no such response if forthcoming, the Commission, supported by the European Parliament, can take Spain to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in order that citizens’ fundamental rights to their homes are respected.

  • #73972
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    “….but it is the law of the land, like it or not. They chose to buy into it (ignorance or not)”.

    What some people don’t seem to understand when criticising those who have got caught up in the Land Grab situation is that yes, there is a law, but the point they are totally missing is that this law is being mis-used and abused, illegally.

    The law was designed by the Valencian authorities to help deliver low cost housing for local residents by preventing holiday home developers and speculators banking land……
    and look at the result. The exact opposite is happening – the only things being built are high-cost properties targeted at foreigners.
    Like many things in Spain, it is being abused for greed, all with the nod and wink from Town Hall officials.

    And to add insult to injury, their ‘interpretation’ of this law is ‘applied’ retrospectively, often years after some have legally bought/built their homes. So this has nothing to do with ‘ignorance’ at the time of buying.

  • #73973
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    Anonymous
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    “yes, there is a law” – Thank God for that. People are prepared to accept there is a law. There are many laws in UK which many use tactics to skirt around for their befefit.
    Heard about the retrospective planning for a 10.000 sm store which was built in UK without planning?
    Heard about the drink driver cleared on a technicality?
    “arrogant attitude” – No, just straight talking and fed up with some of the stories of tears, when own stupidity or lack of responsibility comes into it.
    “Think I will agree that I was one of the stupid ones” _ that the case I sympathise and hope you get compensation. Just please don’t all blame the Government, Laws, Developes, Solicitors, etc., Everyone had a choice to say no, walk away, or employ their own advisors.
    Some, rather that accept responsibility in part, want to blame everymay and his dog and the dog’s bone, if they could.
    Two sides to every story.

  • #73976
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    M.G
    I am very capable of sorting out my situation as I stand by the desions I make both good and bad.
    You appear just like a guy we have at the local the pub, always tells people what they did wrong but never makes a decision themselves, so never makes mistakes.
    Some may deserve to be called idiots buying 3,4,5 properties in a greed filled frenzy
    There are many that did everything you suggest,ticked all the boxes and have every right to feel that they should have some recourse from a legal system thats already in place to protect them.
    For you to then say these people are stupid or are idiots is perhaps something that satisfies a warped sence of pleasure.
    While at times I can see where you are coming from when everyone blames anyone bare themselves (think we know many like them)think your posts should really have more consideration for the real genuine victims here

    Frank

  • #73979
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    Anonymous
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    I have watched posts being added to this thread without responding until now, as I don’t want to nit-pick on individual comments. The post I made was a sweeping generalisation, but not far from fact. I made my original post after becoming somewhat depressed at reading such unbalaced negative feedback of property transactions.

    I am becoming very concerned at the bad press Spain is receiving in terms of its quality as a place to live, work or retire. A lot of the bad/negative reports are starting in places like this forum. So many people are losing prospective, seeing nothing but problems being reported. I have lived on the CDS for 12 years now and do not have one first hand experience of a negative nature in terms of property. I also do not have one single friend or acquaintance that has had a problem that was not resolved within the framework of laws etc (and without the need for any to be taken into Court).

    I think we have to get everything into focus again – it is like saying that the Cumbria Train Crash earlier this year which resulted in a tragic fatality and attracted weeks of press coverage should be taken as a warning not to travel by train in the UK. When it later came out that the probable cause was the failure of an employee/contractor failing to carry out work, does that mean that the Rail Network system is corrupt? I have checked the Times, Mail and Sun this morning and am unable to see any report as to if the 17.30 Glasgow to London train arrived safely yesterday and if it was on time! In fact, I cannot see any reports of any trains arriving safely at their scheduled time. The point I am making is that millions of rail users have made a safe and on time journey this year has not been reported upon yet the one tragic incident caused by what seems to be “corruption within the system” (taking money for something that was not done) has received all the press.

    The Spanish Legal and Planning systems are NOT corrupt, however there are individuals within those systems that are – same as I am sure that more than one rail worker has taken money (wages) for something that they have not done. The authorities are dealing with the corruption, and I think a lot more will come out of the woodwork before it settles again.

    The Spanish legal system does have contract laws not dissimilar to that in the UK, but I know that a lot of promoters have written their contracts with “get out clauses”. Plans etc tend to be marked as for information only. Delays by the purchaser attracts a penalty but not by the vendor. The contracts are often loaded in favour of the developer but who signed to accept them? Whose lawyer did not negotiate changes to the contract to ensure it was fair and equitable?

    When in the UK, I had problems with those that had entered the UK to live wanting to change the rules. I had problems with the fact that they wanted their children segregated school wise. Those folks wanted the benefits (often literally!) that came from living in the UK but wanted to change the system to reflect their own background / traditions. That is not the way it is – you go BY CHOICE to live in another country and you must accept the systems, laws and traditions of that country NOT try to change them to suit yourself. I have a problem here with a lot of expats who want everything to be British. We did not come to Spain to live the British way, we came here because the quality of life was better – THE SPANISH LIFE. I would dearly love to see all British Bars etc closed down. I don’t want to know about John Smith’s or Tetley’s Bitter, Fish and Chips, Steak and Kidney Pie and Mash, kids in “private” English schools etc. If that is the life you want, please do not bother to come here – Blackpool is crying out for new residents.

    I am not being disrespectful to those that are caught up in some of the horror stories we see on this forum; I do have immense sympathy with you. However, more than half of the stories I see do revolve around “wrong choices”. Just two examples….

    1 – The choice of the developers / promoters / agents lawyer. Would you do that in the UK? No – you would choose your own. At the end of the day a lawyer cannot work for both parties and be independent to both

    2 – An off plan investment purchase that cannot be sold before completion, yet alone for a profit, despite what the “friendly” British agent earning 12% commission told you. Well most investments carry a warning that “Your investment can go down as well as up”.

    These are things people would think about if they were in the UK so why oh why do they come to Spain with no knowledge of the language and allow the sunshine and sangria to take over all their common sense. So many of the horror stories relate to wrong choices, something that those affected CHOSE TO DO under their own free will despite (presumably) being in full control of their faculties that should have told them to think again and tread with caution. Some others are caught up in something that they did not bargain for but many of those will get their due compensation in time – the system may be slow but the UK legal system is hardly an express train, especially as Barristers collect £1,000 per day for as long as they can spin things out (on both sides)!

    Spain, or at least the Spanish, are far less corrupt than the British living here (percentage wise). Of about 50,000 Brits living in the Fuengirola and Benalmadena areas only about 10,000 are registered at the town halls. Probably less than 50% of those are paying tax and Social Security. OK, the fraud they commit is small scale when compared to the like of Roca (they don’t pay tax on their 500 Euros a week black money and they only did enough work to justify a 200 Euro payment by Spanish standards anyway) but the number of those involved in some kind of fraud is a much higher percentage than will be found amongst the Spanish. What about the Brits here who still get their benefits, their child benefits (there are hundreds of those). Please don’t tell me that the Spanish waiters do not declare their “bote” or that bosses give a part of the wages in cash undeclared – that is a long established (but not correct and slowly changing) part of the system. At least they are part of the system, pay Social and pay some tax to provide the services they (and the non tax/social paying Brits) use.

    I am in the middle of buying my fifth property here and once again am experiencing no problems, have copies of all legal papers via my lawyer and have read through them all for myself as well. Anything not understood has been queried and dealt with in a written response from the lawyer.

    The point that my original post was trying to make was that this forum is supposed to be an insight into Spanish Property. It is not meant to be a forum dealing only with the problems experienced by a very small percentage of people who have bought (or at least tried to buy) in Spain. For new members to the forum there needs to be some balance in this forum – the 98% of British people who have bought property here in Spain with no problems need to add their input and to show that there is another (far bigger) side to the story. We need to see far more positive threads.

    Spain is a far nicer place to live and work than the UK and I for one would never consider returning there. Everything that made Spain attractive for me had it’s roots firmly in the “manana syndrome” – ie laid back and why do an hours overtime when the local bar has some lovely tapas being served on a sunny terrace! But let us all just keep sight of the fact that Spain is Spanish, the local people are Spanish, the language is Spanish, the law and legal system is Spanish, the customs are Spanish, hey a good life is Spanish! Work within the Spanish system and do not expect the Spanish to change the system to English.

    PS Spanish Tapas are far tastier than Tesco’s Baked Beans on Toast!!

  • #73980
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I am very capable of sorting out my situation as I stand by the desions I make both good and bad.” – So no problem or moans there then.

    “always tells people what they did wrong but never makes a decision themselves” – If that we keeps you happy, thinking that, then so be it. Should tell me workforce that as been in business and an investor many years. Made mistakes and taken on chin. Stocks yesterday, perhaps I should be like many Brits who bought abroad and blame others and not the risk I took. So, bloody America, why can’t they control their finances, it’s not my fault my share value has fallen. Happy now that I have joined the clan?

    “Some may deserve to be called idiots buying 3,4,5 properties in a greed filled frenzy” – Or just the 1 and looking for a quick profit.

    “There are many that did everything you suggest,ticked all the boxes” – Sorry, must have left one box un-ticked, otherwise why the problems now?

    “For you to then say these people are stupid or are idiots is perhaps something that satisfies a warped sence of pleasure” – Again if you feel happy believing that then so be it.

    “While at times I can see where you are coming from when everyone blames anyone bare themselves (think we know many like them)think your posts should really have more consideration for the real genuine victims here” _ Have stated many times that for “the genuine” I have sympathy, however, they still must take some of the blame for their situation. Nobody forced them to purchase a property in a foreign Country. In fact, any Country.

    Interest rates in UK going up, next we will have house purchasers in UK blaming everyone else, and overlooking the fact that they may have bought something they can’t really afford, especially if there is a hiccup in the money market.

  • #73983
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    We need to see far more positive threads.

    Then why not start one?
    This thread is for people who need help/information re. their court cases.

  • #73984
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quote: This thread is for people who need help/information re. their court cases

    .

    Fine – then posters should concentrate on sharing the facts about matters surrounding the conduct of their court cases and their outcomes.

    I agree entirely with freedom of speech but perceive that some of the threads on the site do degenerate very rapidly into tit for tat “battle” zones.

    I guess that being conned, ill advised, ripped off and treated totally without respect are emotive issues. I suspect, however, that a tad more objectivity on threads like this one – will focus minds on the action to be taken to seek redress. This in turn might help some people to manage their stress more effectively.

  • #73986
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    OK, so be careful on your choice of lawyer, developer, agent etc. But tbet not many are cancelling their inspection trip as a result of that.
    That all many can see is a fast buck, as the agent has told them.

  • #73987
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Where your two examples are not relevant mg is that neither involved thieving land (or anything else for that matter) from it’s rightful owner.
    Or in the worst case scenario forcing someone to have their house/home pulled down. To compare that with someone getting off on a technicality re. drink/driving is surely a flippant comparison. And since when is the process of buying a house supposed to be as risky as buying shares in a volatile market?

    To those ‘hurting’ and worried about their court cases, maybe there will be more input soon….. on topic.

  • #73988
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Where your two examples are not relevant mg is that neither involved thieving land” – So if it is legal theft, sue for theft.
    If it is considered a legal land grab. Tough then.

    “from it’s rightful owner” – Obviously both paties consider themselves antitled to the land, hence let the court decide.

    “Or in the worst case scenario forcing someone to have their house/home pulled down” _ Much like the chap in UK then who has had his bungalow demolished in the last couple of months (nothing to do with land grap, corrupt developers and lawyers, just law of the land).

    ” And since when is the process of buying a house supposed to be as risky as buying shares in a volatile market” – When you can’t ruly afford it and get mortgaged over your head.
    Would you agree with that?

  • #73989
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    This thread is for people who need help/information re. their court cases.

    @OliverB wrote:

    then posters should concentrate on sharing the facts about matters surrounding the conduct of their court cases and their outcomes

    @charlie wrote:

    maybe there will be more input soon….. on topic

    So we are getting some agreement between all on the thread now! Let us keep ALL the incorrect and insulting “The Spanish and con men / corrupt” type claims out of postings throughout the forum. I for one will defend our very tolerant and friendly hosts who welcome us into their country with the assumption that we are going to integrate and become part of the community. Yes there are a few bad apples amonst the Spanish but the British barrel has a far higher concentration of rotton fruit!! Roca is not THE SYSTEM!!

    These continual insults are usually misplaced and too general and really do degenerate this forum and weaken it’s standing as an authoritive site on Spanish Property matters.

  • #73991
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Excuse me but weren’t all the conning developers mainly Spanish ❓ AIFOS, Arenal, Penarroyo. I could go on. Of course the Brit agents who live on the coast colluded with them.

    Can you tell me how can you avoid the cases of buying a 100m2 apartment and getting an 80m2 one ❓ How can you avoid buying a house in Marbella which had a licence only for it to be revoked ❓ Ya ya..

    Of course there is a place for positive posts (I have put some myself) but what has happened during the last few years has been unprecedented. Spain is corrupt, on all levels.

    Finally Pauland Lyn, I would say reading your ad on house for sale the alarm bells would ring for me that no IBI has ever been paid, not very good for the nervous buyer is it?

  • #73992
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    …most of the problems I see within the forum have been caused by greed coupled with people leaving their brains on their seats when leaving their EasyJet flight.

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    These continual insults are usually misplaced and too general and really do degenerate this forum.

    🙄

  • #73993
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Paul +Lyn
    Fully understand your feelings and I for one would move tomorrow if it were not for commitments and as I said everyone should be welcome to post on forums such as this so on lookers can at least see both sides.
    As you have more experience of the facts first hand than many of us likewise I can see your point of view however as my solicitor in Spain pointed out to me this week that she herself, was fed up with trying to do an honest job surrounded by corruption in local councils and the legal system.
    I am afraid that for many you are trying to defend in indefensible and while appreciating by percentage it may be small to those worse affected it proves little comfort.
    Understand that where I live there are many that have come from Liverpool that have brought problems with them however that cant possibly be a reflection from everyone from there that comes down here to live, however you will never get those that have been a victim understand that.
    Of course many of those affected in their problems are their own worst enemy and how many would be complaining if the property they bought could be sold tomorrow at a healthy profit (probably a lot smaller in numbers).
    To try to say to those really genuine ones that have had the misery inflicted on them through little fault of their own are idiots cannot be condoned in any country or by anyone making it.
    I for one think its great that you posted your opinion and your probably right that things like newspapers and forums do only portray one side of the situation (bad news is good news for newspapers).
    Understand that you will never win your argument on forums such as this as by nature those affected will group together for help/advice and indeed comfort for each other (as they say if you want to be successful mix with successful etc)
    Glad to see you love it in Spain as do many of my friends as it’s a lovely part of the world however as I sad in earlier posts,you,me and everyone in Spain has been affected in someway by the corruption and the legal system.
    M. G I am not even going to take the time to even try to reply to your postings as I am one of the idiots you are clearly much to intelligent and on the ball for me.
    Tell me ? You pulled all of your investments out of the financils markets last Monday ? Maybe you dont invest in the markets so you can tell everyone that they to were idiots that they may have lost,
    Maybe you sit and train spot everyday but whatever you do I clearly think that your not a person who would have a day at the races as thats for idiots that loose money.

    Oliver B . To you it may be tid tad or whatever to others its far from that and there are other threads that do exactly what you are suggesting and

    Frank

  • #73994
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Please read my posting – “Stocks yesterday, perhaps I should be like many Brits who bought abroad and blame others and not the risk I took” – I have lost, or maybe made a mistake or misjudgement, which I accept and not try to blame others.

  • #73995
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    M.G
    The only person I blame for the decisions I make are yours truly.
    I know lovely couple that went to Spain through their financial advisor of many years and a leading U.K overeseas property company and lost everything due to the corruption.
    Try telling the guy who has just had a stroke through the stress that he left his brains on the seat of Easy Jet.
    They were not interested in making money,just wanted a holiday home,and went along the most trusted path they could,they also sought independant advice,through a selection of solicitors,and had meetingswith the banks.
    None were around when it went pear shape for them and the legal system in Spain to protect them was such that the judge took a bung to ensure the developer won ( How can they possibly in anyway be called stupid and they were part to blame as no one made them sign)
    There are thousands like me that didnt do their homework and many will try to blame others,many want out as the market has not performed,many are simply out of their depth.
    However the way your are trying to say that in someway these real genuine cases are somewhat to blame amounts to a mugger saying that it was the victims decision to walk down the street.

    Frank

  • #73996
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If what your saying is trly a genuine case and there is evidence. For the benefit of others who may fall into the same trap, maybe worth mentioning:
    Details of the “independant advice” sought.
    Details of the solicitors.
    Details of the banks involved.
    The developer who gave the “bung”.

    Surely there are many who could be saved from such suffering, if they were to be forewarned.

  • #73997
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    paulandlyn

    The point that my original post was trying to make was that this forum is supposed to be an insight into Spanish Property. It is not meant to be a forum dealing only with the problems experienced by a very small percentage of people who have bought (or at least tried to buy) in Spain. For new members to the forum there needs to be some balance in this forum – the 98% of British people who have bought property here in Spain with no problems need to add their input and to show that there is another (far bigger) side to the story. We need to see far more positive threads.

    Well said, I’m one of the quite majority, after pushing the same point of view for a while and i was always flamed for it. You will get a great deal of flack from the ‘regulars’ of the forum, but thats the way it is.

    We are delighted with our purchase built by a developer and represented by a lawyer, both of them the subject of many derogatory posts here.

    As for the court case, anyone who has litigated here in the UK will know it can and does go on for years. I’m suing a landscape gardener at the case stated when my first child was born, she is now five with maybe one year left before the case will come to an end, we won by the way.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #73998
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi all

    Been out all weekend, had a great one, stop the bickering, can understand the hurt that a rip off leaves but its more important to have your health, a loving family and or friends.

  • #74000
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi P800aul – as you know, we have both shared differences on this forum in the past, but have always dealt with them in a mature way. There have even been times when we’ve actually agreed! 😉

    However re. you being ‘flamed’, I would just like to point out that on this thread alone over the last 48 hours, purchasers with problems have endured comments such as:
    having gripes because of failing to make a fat profit, having a problem with the system because our greed is not met with results, naive, leaving our brains behind, stupidity, lack of responsibility, allowing sunshine and sangria to take over common sense.

    With respect, I don’t recall you personally having ever been ‘flamed’ in quite this way but we on the other side of the fence to the ‘content purchaser’ have to endure this type of ‘flak’ on almost a weekly basis.

    I think I speak for most of us who have been badly let down by the people involved in the ‘system’ that we are always pleased when people have a successful purchase in Spain, I don’t think any of us are bad-hearted to ‘begrudge’ that to anyone. And anyone having such a good/positive experience and enjoying the Spanish way of life are totally free to post these experiences. We all have a love of Spain and appreciate the ‘good life’ that it has to offer, which is the reason we all wanted to buy there in the first place. Unfortunately, it does seem that people with problems tend to post more often than those who don’t, thus seemingly giving an ‘unbalanced’ tone to the forum – but the fact is that most people use forums such as this seeking help/advice.

    I just wish that when people do post on a specific topic such as this ‘court case’ thread, it wouldn’t get hi-jacked by people taking the opportunity to ram-home their view point that we are stupid and greedy and only have ourselves to blame. It really doesn’t help anyone.

    Stevev6 – I understand the point you are making, but if you were in our position you would know that being ripped off often goes hand-in-hand with your health being affected through the stress. Especially where their experience has resulted in losing their life-savings, and I’m not talking about taking a mortgage, I mean life-savings. There are many I know where the worry has literally put them in hospital, or at best their lives (and finances) being put on hold for four years as in our case. I genuinely hope that when you find your townhouse in Calahonda, you do not endure similar problems that we have had to face.

    This thread was started by people who are wanting help/info on their court cases. It would be helpful if posters stuck to topic, and just maybe there would be less chance of it sinking to the level of ‘bickering’. On page 1 of this thread there are worried people – why can’t it be left to people who can perhaps offer some constructive information to help them?

  • #74001
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie

    I take your point

  • #74002
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wishing you good luck and all the best Steve – and let’s hope to see a future post from you about a smooth and successful purchase experience. 😉

  • #74014
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    This thread was started by people who are wanting help/info on their court cases. It would be helpful if posters stuck to topic, and just maybe there would be less chance of it sinking to the level of ‘bickering’.

    The irony is that the person who’s post generaliing about the Spanish Systems is one of only two or three people that have put together a reasoned and informed response to my postings.

    A lot of what you say, Charlie, I do not disagree with but the continual outbursts of negative comments in the forum attacking the Spanish accross the board are unreasonable. Funny thing is as well, the worst offenders for twisting threads and somehow turning them into knocks against the systems are actually those that have problems.

    I realised that my initial sweeping statements were being misconstrued as an attack at all with problems – hence my second post which rectified that. Also, the fact that the post was a response challenging a statement made by a member that was “on topic”, likewise my post must be considered as “on topic”.

    We cannot lose sight of the fact that no more than 2% of property transactions have major problems attaching to them and of these, it could be said that 50% are “own fault” and 50% are genuine cases. I would love to see the actual figure, but I would guestimate that over half of those involve Marbella. I do not like Marbella personally – I cannot think of anywhere in Spain that is so not Spanish and would not wish to live there. However, those of us that have lived on the coast for a long while have been waiting for the collapse of the Town Hall for many years with the expected problems that have now materialised. I was trying to think earlier about just how long that has been and the best I can do is date it to 9 years ago – I have found reference to Gil being jailed in January 1999 (so presumably the investigation was in the Public Domain a few months earlier) over the diversion of Town Hall funds to Athletico Madrid see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/250826.stm. Again, no comfort to those with problems but a fact.

    For my own part, I have always bought in the Fuengirola / Benalmadena / Mijas triangle. Ironically, my lawyers are in Marbella! Reason… when first buying twelve years ago I wanted an “out of town” lawyer who would be totally independent to anyone else in the “deal”. Never had a problem in what is now five buys and four sells – I don’t think that is by chance.

    Lastly on charlies post, IMO this thread was actually started in the wrong forum. These matters now have their own “Problems” forum and should not be on the general forum.

    @katy wrote:

    the alarm bells would ring for me that no IBI has ever been paid

    Disagree Katy. I know from when we bought and the initial chasing both my lawyer and I did at the Town Hall that there is no problem. It is a technicality caused by the fact that eight properties were on a single land escritura and covered by a single building licence. It was complicated by the constructor renting out the properties of which six were then sold as new for the purpose of IVA and escrituras. Because two remain unsold as they still have long term tenants, they are not registered and because of that the builder continues to pay IBI on a development site. We know that at any time we could receive a notification that the Hacienda have set a rateable value and we will have to pay [a maximum of 4 years because of the limitations statutes] back-dated IBI. The sale we had that fell through, we had already agreed to leave a deposit of 1200€ with the notary to protect the buyers. That’s our lawyer and the purchaser’s lawyer doing their jobs properly and equal to the UK when retentions can be made in similar circumstances. It is for the reason that there is no problem that we include the information in the sales details so that the purchaser knows up front the situation – I bet a lot of people wish that REA’s gave such transparent details!!

  • #74022
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Paul + Lynn
    Have friends that have just completed on La Reserva del Higueron and like me they left their brains on the plane.
    However like me and P800aul we appear to all be very happy in the even though both of our two developers have come in for a considerable amount of bad press.
    I also have many other friends who have apartments in Manilva and Duquesa.Puerto Banus Casaris etc and my sister that lives near Granada
    As much as my solicitor I hate the corruption I feel like you have clearly shown that moderation of some of our views are needed despite the horrors that have effected so many.
    Think you are very brave to firstly put your point across and then be prepared tone it down a little admitting it was a little o.t.t however still managing to get your message over loud and clear ( you were never going to win any brownie points as you found out)
    Living there for 12 years I feel it would be pointless not listen to you both as you say it gives many the opportunity to hear your side or all they hear is bad news.
    Agree that the forum should show both sides but think you will find that many have been hurt so much here that it would prove almost impossible
    Hopefully there are no hard feelings between us as always emails can be so impersonal at times a dreadful and damaging abusive form of communication.

    Frank

    P.S Its still bloody corrupt though! wait ! In places is that better 😀

  • #74023
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Frank, Ceaser got stabbed in the back at the forum! A forum is as it says – a place to openly have your say but not to insult people or their intelligence (unless of course they choose to see it that way in which case I think the saying is “If the cap fits……”). I don’t consider myself brave, just reckless! I don’t give a damn and will say it as it is. I love a good discussion / debate but I will reason my argument and expect others to do the same. Of course there are no hard feelings – as I said in my last post, I defended the Spanish against your blanket statement and you have taken on board at least some of what I said and clearly accept that other people are entitled to their opinions and speak as they find so why would there be any hard feelings?

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Have friends that have just completed on La Reserva del Higueron and like me they left their brains on the plane.

    I was not aware of any problems on Higueron – it seems a good mixed development or possibly “New Town”. The company building it are the same people who built most of the original parts of Torremar. I am actually looking out of my window at the moment at the seaward end of Higueron and the “Ship” Villa belonging to the company’s architect partner whose design skills I would maybe question! I know that they are a little slow sometimes in snagging but with a “customer service” style office readily available to the buyers I thought that a bit of chasing usually is enough.

    Would be interested to know if there is anything up there of concern because I have a couple of friends looking at buying there and a couple of others who are already there.

  • #74024
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Paul and Lyn
    Problems with that development during construction are sorted and they are chuffed to bits.
    Glad there are no hard feelings as its clear that looking at various threads it seems at times like a battle of one up manship as who knows most or re-phrase,who thinks they know most.
    Still will fight the corruption though as it does none of us any good as per my original posts.

    Frank

  • #74034
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I did not intend to post again on this thread but seeing that it has well and truly been hijacked ..why not.
    Pauland Lynne you state that most of the problems are in marbella ❗ Do you not read any press reports! What about Murcia, Almería and a little closer to home Alhaurín and other places inland where people are stuck with illegal properties? oh and of course lets not forget the valencian landgrab! You do seem a little parraochial in your view. I did not think the people with problems on this site were just in the marbella area.

    I agree that many do have problem free purchases, so have I,(although I have not bought for the past 7 years, and no niggly problems with IBI bills and builders registration!) but I cannot deny that I know of many people whose dreams have not come to frutition, many of them through no fault of their own.
    I am frankly suprised to say that you think Fuengirola is more spanish than marbella. I do not intend to get into the “my place is better than your place” scenario as that would be childish. But will just say that marbella does not have the “Rose and Crown” type Brit bars offering all day breakfasts complete with a clientele of tattood blokes and over fourties women with pierced tummys, unfortunately Fuengirola does. Apart from the spanish in marbella (about 70%) residential tourism is mainly madrileños. Brits and Irish. You really must stop posting this stuff just to try and sell your house 🙄

    On a positive note I would say to anyone contemplating buying..why not! Just try to speak to people who have been her a long time (not agents) and take your time, it is a buyers market. Never been a better time to by than now (if you want a place for pleasure and not investment) 🙂 [/quote]

  • #74037
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I did not intend to post again on this thread

    Likewise, but the post you have made cannot be allowed to pass without comment and correction!!

    @katy wrote:

    you state that most of the problems are in marbella Do you not read any press reports!

    Yes we read press reports, and form an opinion. My opinion is that number wise Marbella figures pretty heavily in the statistics but do you not read fully the posts you make comments upon……….

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    I would love to see the actual figure, but I would guestimate that over half of those involve Marbella.

    @katy wrote:

    I agree that many do have problem free purchases

    I am glad that we agree on what was the basis of my original posting

    @katy wrote:

    I do not intend to get into the “my place is better than your place” scenario as that would be childish. But will just say that marbella does not have the “Rose and Crown” type Brit bars offering all day breakfasts complete with a clientele of tattood blokes and over fourties women with pierced tummys, unfortunately Fuengirola does.

    Well you managed to get into that kind of childish senario! Have you been to Marbella Port recently? Compares with Fuengirola!! Yes Fuengirola suffers from the “Tattoo and Piercings” brigade if you wish to look at certain areas of the Paseo – in the same way that so many people view Marbella as plastic – plastic people with plastic money and plastic t**s ! In the same way, Benalmadena Port is actually a far nicer place than Banus, unless you wish to be a dealer! Try some of the Spanish Bars in the areas we referred to where a nice Tapa and Bottle of Beer or Glass of Tinto will cost 2 Euros compared with 5 Euros in Marbella. Mind you that 5 Euros would be cheaper than the 6.95 plus IVA plus 15% service charge that a Brit owned Marbella Bar close to the hospital tried to charge me for a watery pump produced glass of Coke last week. After a little dispute where the Coke was sent back but they still tried to charge for it, funny how they couldn’t find their complaints book! Mind you, no complaints book = no pay or Local Police and a 1,000 Euro fine for no complaints book. But again, please read the previous posting fully…….

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    For my own part, I have always bought in the Fuengirola / Benalmadena / Mijas triangle

    @katy wrote:

    You really must stop posting this stuff just to try and sell your house

    Fortunately, the house is not in Marbella. We do not have the problem of trying to sell a house that is any way illegal. We are not waiting to see if the Town Hall manage to get authority to legalise the house by changing the Town Plan where there is a posibility that in 18 months time, their attempts will be refused by the regional government. I post on this forum if I have something to say and it has nothing to do with trying to sell a house. Quite simply, I am not concerned if I sell or don’t. I will actually give it to the end of the year and if it is not sold I have an international blue chip company offering to enter into a long term rental contract at a very good rent. I have removed my signature from this post in case you still believe this is my reason for responding to you!

    @katy wrote:

    I would say to anyone contemplating buying..why not!

    We agree again where it matters!!

  • #74044
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    I would say to anyone contemplating buying..why not!

    We agree again where it matters!!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6948916.stm

    Why not indeed!!

  • #74048
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    😆 😆 Mike there was a bit missing from my comment I wrote “for pleasure”

    To Steventhe well and othere involved in court cases please accept my apologies for how your thread has been taken over. I am sure the Fuengirola v Marbella discussion has little relevance to you. I will probably start another thread and call it “Sour Grapes”

  • #74058
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    😆 😆 Mike there was a bit missing from my comment I wrote “for pleasure”

    I’m sorry, Katy, so you did. I’m just surprised that no one had mentioned it.

  • #74554
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just found out that apparently Court no. 5 is notoriously the slowest in Marbella – so if this is the court you’ve been allocated, be prepared for a long wait.
    Our file was submitted in March and still waiting for a hearing date, let alone the hearing itself.

  • #74354
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just found out that apparently Court no. 5 is notoriously the slowest in Marbella – so if this is the court you’ve been allocated, be prepared for a long wait.
    Our file was submitted in March and still waiting for a hearing date, let alone the hearing itself.

  • #74555
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just Frank answered to PaulandLyn

    As you have more experience of the facts first hand than many of us likewise I can see your point of view however as my solicitor in Spain pointed out to me this week that she herself, was fed up with trying to do an honest job surrounded by corruption in local councils and the legal system.
    I am afraid that for many you are trying to defend in indefensible and while appreciating by percentage it may be small to those worse affected it proves little comfort.

    ………smack on, and for those in denial of this, well that’s your choice. All the rest of us can do is try to force justice where at present there is very little.

    Well done everyone for not letting this thread collapse in to useless personal insults.

  • #74355
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just Frank answered to PaulandLyn

    As you have more experience of the facts first hand than many of us likewise I can see your point of view however as my solicitor in Spain pointed out to me this week that she herself, was fed up with trying to do an honest job surrounded by corruption in local councils and the legal system.
    I am afraid that for many you are trying to defend in indefensible and while appreciating by percentage it may be small to those worse affected it proves little comfort.

    ………smack on, and for those in denial of this, well that’s your choice. All the rest of us can do is try to force justice where at present there is very little.

    Well done everyone for not letting this thread collapse in to useless personal insults.

  • #74558
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich, you are bringing back to life a debate that had (correctly) died a natural death. You seem to also have lost sight of the fact that this forum is an insight into the spanish property market – not just a platform for those who have had a transaction go wrong to air an anti-Spanish stance

    I have every sympathy with those with problems, be they self inflicted or inflicted by others. However, let us not lose sight of the fact that such transactions account for a very small percentage of property transactions and are centred heavily in one specific municipality.

    I do not have exact figures obviously, but I would bet that in Andalucia today, despite it being August, there will have been maybe a thousand property sales complete at a Notario’s office. I expect there will be one or two of these transactions that later prove to be in some way defective. It may be that those two transaction will be reported upon in this forum…….. BUT will we ever hear about the 998 that have no problems? No. In the same way, since I last posted the observation, I have still found no reference in the UK press or UK television of any Glasgow to London train arriving safely or on time.

    My original post was to suggest that statements about appartantly widespead problems and corruption in the Spanish Property Market needed tempering and toning down to reflect the true situation. You cannot deny the fact that such problems are not actually that widespread, probably accounting for a minimal percentage of transactions affecting probably much less than 1% of people buying property in Spain. In the same way, I and others who have had many property prurchases complete with no problems do not shout from the rooftops but do have some symapthy for those with problems, however they have come about.

    One of the single largest complaints is the slow speed of the Court System in Spain, which is actually not much more tardy than the UK system. In the UK, if you contract to buy an off plan property from Barretts and find that instead of a 3 bedroomed detached house on plot 44 you have a semi-detached 2 bedroom house on plot 43 at the same price that is going to be two years late on completion and has no planning permission or no NHBC certificate or Building Control final approval, you do not complete – you cancel the contract due to the developers breach, obtain a refund of payments already made and demand compensation. Here the system is the same except the level of compensation is generally equal to the deposit paid (ie you get double back). You certainly do not complete – that in itself in the UK or in Spain signals acceptance of the changes and will weaken any case you may have. Obviously any developer is going to try and avoid such payments and you will probably need to resort to the Courts and the developer with his financial might and better knowledge of the system will use delaying tactics – UK or Spain. At the end of the day there is not so much different in the systems – the only winners ever, be it Spain ot the UK, are the lawyers!

    This forum needs to keep alive the dream that so many people have and that so many more already enjoy. Spain is still a wonderful country to live in, amongst lovely warm friendly local people. 99% of property purchases do complete with no real problems but there a small percentage of deals that do go wrong. Just beware and follow the same general route you would in the UK when buying with a little extra precaution as you neither speak the language nor understand fully the system. If things go wrong there is a Court system that works much the same as any other in the EU including the UK, ie slowly and that can be manipulated by those with money and knowledge so as to delay the course of justice – but it will come in time.

  • #74358
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich, you are bringing back to life a debate that had (correctly) died a natural death. You seem to also have lost sight of the fact that this forum is an insight into the spanish property market – not just a platform for those who have had a transaction go wrong to air an anti-Spanish stance

    I have every sympathy with those with problems, be they self inflicted or inflicted by others. However, let us not lose sight of the fact that such transactions account for a very small percentage of property transactions and are centred heavily in one specific municipality.

    I do not have exact figures obviously, but I would bet that in Andalucia today, despite it being August, there will have been maybe a thousand property sales complete at a Notario’s office. I expect there will be one or two of these transactions that later prove to be in some way defective. It may be that those two transaction will be reported upon in this forum…….. BUT will we ever hear about the 998 that have no problems? No. In the same way, since I last posted the observation, I have still found no reference in the UK press or UK television of any Glasgow to London train arriving safely or on time.

    My original post was to suggest that statements about appartantly widespead problems and corruption in the Spanish Property Market needed tempering and toning down to reflect the true situation. You cannot deny the fact that such problems are not actually that widespread, probably accounting for a minimal percentage of transactions affecting probably much less than 1% of people buying property in Spain. In the same way, I and others who have had many property prurchases complete with no problems do not shout from the rooftops but do have some symapthy for those with problems, however they have come about.

    One of the single largest complaints is the slow speed of the Court System in Spain, which is actually not much more tardy than the UK system. In the UK, if you contract to buy an off plan property from Barretts and find that instead of a 3 bedroomed detached house on plot 44 you have a semi-detached 2 bedroom house on plot 43 at the same price that is going to be two years late on completion and has no planning permission or no NHBC certificate or Building Control final approval, you do not complete – you cancel the contract due to the developers breach, obtain a refund of payments already made and demand compensation. Here the system is the same except the level of compensation is generally equal to the deposit paid (ie you get double back). You certainly do not complete – that in itself in the UK or in Spain signals acceptance of the changes and will weaken any case you may have. Obviously any developer is going to try and avoid such payments and you will probably need to resort to the Courts and the developer with his financial might and better knowledge of the system will use delaying tactics – UK or Spain. At the end of the day there is not so much different in the systems – the only winners ever, be it Spain ot the UK, are the lawyers!

    This forum needs to keep alive the dream that so many people have and that so many more already enjoy. Spain is still a wonderful country to live in, amongst lovely warm friendly local people. 99% of property purchases do complete with no real problems but there a small percentage of deals that do go wrong. Just beware and follow the same general route you would in the UK when buying with a little extra precaution as you neither speak the language nor understand fully the system. If things go wrong there is a Court system that works much the same as any other in the EU including the UK, ie slowly and that can be manipulated by those with money and knowledge so as to delay the course of justice – but it will come in time.

  • #74559
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    paulandlyn

    i think there is enough evidence on this site alone to show that a very poor system based on greed has lead to massive corruption, and planning nightmares, and has meant misery for many people buying/living in parts of Spain, and probably worse, caused massive long term damage to parts of the Spannish coastline with ugly unwanted and unfinished appartments, and is in no way similar or as safe as buying in the UK.

    Anyway, this has all been said a thousand times before, i was on holiday in greece when the thread started. I think we will just have to agree to dissagree on this one, so happy to let it die.

  • #74359
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    paulandlyn

    i think there is enough evidence on this site alone to show that a very poor system based on greed has lead to massive corruption, and planning nightmares, and has meant misery for many people buying/living in parts of Spain, and probably worse, caused massive long term damage to parts of the Spannish coastline with ugly unwanted and unfinished appartments, and is in no way similar or as safe as buying in the UK.

    Anyway, this has all been said a thousand times before, i was on holiday in greece when the thread started. I think we will just have to agree to dissagree on this one, so happy to let it die.

  • #74565
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    You seem to also have lost sight of the fact that this forum is an insight into the spanish property market – not just a platform for those who have had a transaction go wrong to air an anti-Spanish stance

    Just because we have had a transaction ‘go wrong’ and exchange our opinions/experiences about it, it does not mean we are ‘anti-Spanish’.
    That is as ridiculous as saying anyone who complains about the effect large numbers of immigrants are having in the UK are ‘racist’.
    To suggest Goodstich (or any of us for that matter) is anti-Spanish is misguided rudeness. You are not the only one with valued Spanish friends. Do you really think before you write?

    If we are anti anyone, it is the many rogues involved in the Spanish system of purchasing a property – many of whom are British. Personally, I don’t give a monkey how many happy purchasers there are and you can quote all the stats you like. The fact is there are tens of thousands of us who are not and who have been cheated, conned, let down by so-called professionals who we paid to protect our interests, lied to and are now burdened with great financial worries. We are trying to get through it the best way we can, and one of these ways re. advice and support is a forum like SPI.

    You seem to lose sight of the fact that this forum is a platform for those who have had a transaction ‘go wrong’, to seek advice, to debate and to have the freedom of voicing their opinions – as well as a platform for many other scenarios, good and bad. It’s a FORUM.
    And the reason it’s divided up into a number of subject threads is so people who for example are seeking advice on their court cases don’t get bogged down by people who have had a lovely experience and therefore feel it is their right to jump in with both feet to call them names like idiot and anti-Spanish. And to top it all, also demand/complain that there should be a better balance to the postings. It would be a help all round on threads like this if you just chilled and went and made yourself a nice cup of cocoa instead.

    And why should a very important thread like this have to die a natural death? If only people posted on it that actually had court cases, or had information regarding court cases, it could have been a very valuable source of advice for others.

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    In the UK, if you contract to buy an off plan property from Barretts and find that instead of a 3 bedroomed detached house on plot 44 you have a semi-detached 2 bedroom house on plot 43 at the same price that is going to be two years late on completion and has no planning permission or no NHBC certificate or Building Control final approval, you do not complete –
    you cancel the contract due to the developers breach, obtain a refund of payments already made and demand compensation.

    ……if only certain developers in Spain acted like Barretts then is all I can say. That example has no bearing whatsoever on what actually takes place in Spain.

    Cancel the contract due to developers breach and obtain a refund and demand compensation???? In Spain they laugh in your face and will make you go to court first, even when they haven’t built anything after three years (that’s of course if they even answer your lawyer/e-mail/telephone calls). And that statement is from personal experience so please don’t bother contradicting.
    You really don’t know what you are talking about re. trying to get justice when there are problems purchasing in Spain but as you say – you and your friends have never had a problem – so you wouldn’t would you.

    P.S. A bit of advice.
    Suggest you don’t have a look at the ACTION thread – nineteen pages long and nearly three hundred posts….all about ‘negative’ stuff and action against the corruption.
    And a petition to complain about Spain’s behaviour to the EU.
    You will have a cardiac arrest.

  • #74365
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    You seem to also have lost sight of the fact that this forum is an insight into the spanish property market – not just a platform for those who have had a transaction go wrong to air an anti-Spanish stance

    Just because we have had a transaction ‘go wrong’ and exchange our opinions/experiences about it, it does not mean we are ‘anti-Spanish’.
    That is as ridiculous as saying anyone who complains about the effect large numbers of immigrants are having in the UK are ‘racist’.
    To suggest Goodstich (or any of us for that matter) is anti-Spanish is misguided rudeness. You are not the only one with valued Spanish friends. Do you really think before you write?

    If we are anti anyone, it is the many rogues involved in the Spanish system of purchasing a property – many of whom are British. Personally, I don’t give a monkey how many happy purchasers there are and you can quote all the stats you like. The fact is there are tens of thousands of us who are not and who have been cheated, conned, let down by so-called professionals who we paid to protect our interests, lied to and are now burdened with great financial worries. We are trying to get through it the best way we can, and one of these ways re. advice and support is a forum like SPI.

    You seem to lose sight of the fact that this forum is a platform for those who have had a transaction ‘go wrong’, to seek advice, to debate and to have the freedom of voicing their opinions – as well as a platform for many other scenarios, good and bad. It’s a FORUM.
    And the reason it’s divided up into a number of subject threads is so people who for example are seeking advice on their court cases don’t get bogged down by people who have had a lovely experience and therefore feel it is their right to jump in with both feet to call them names like idiot and anti-Spanish. And to top it all, also demand/complain that there should be a better balance to the postings. It would be a help all round on threads like this if you just chilled and went and made yourself a nice cup of cocoa instead.

    And why should a very important thread like this have to die a natural death? If only people posted on it that actually had court cases, or had information regarding court cases, it could have been a very valuable source of advice for others.

    @paulandlyn wrote:

    In the UK, if you contract to buy an off plan property from Barretts and find that instead of a 3 bedroomed detached house on plot 44 you have a semi-detached 2 bedroom house on plot 43 at the same price that is going to be two years late on completion and has no planning permission or no NHBC certificate or Building Control final approval, you do not complete –
    you cancel the contract due to the developers breach, obtain a refund of payments already made and demand compensation.

    ……if only certain developers in Spain acted like Barretts then is all I can say. That example has no bearing whatsoever on what actually takes place in Spain.

    Cancel the contract due to developers breach and obtain a refund and demand compensation???? In Spain they laugh in your face and will make you go to court first, even when they haven’t built anything after three years (that’s of course if they even answer your lawyer/e-mail/telephone calls). And that statement is from personal experience so please don’t bother contradicting.
    You really don’t know what you are talking about re. trying to get justice when there are problems purchasing in Spain but as you say – you and your friends have never had a problem – so you wouldn’t would you.

    P.S. A bit of advice.
    Suggest you don’t have a look at the ACTION thread – nineteen pages long and nearly three hundred posts….all about ‘negative’ stuff and action against the corruption.
    And a petition to complain about Spain’s behaviour to the EU.
    You will have a cardiac arrest.

  • #74566
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie, out of your 900 plus posts in this forum, there are at least 700 that are useful and informative. However, there are also others, like this one, where you put on a different hat and fail to accept that you are actually in a minority. Posts like this by you and others that cannot see that you are in a minority, actually are posts that devalue this forum. This forum is supposed to be an insight to the spanish property market and as such negative posts should actually count for less than 1% of the total posts if it is to reflect the real property market here in Spain! In fact, Mark has created a new section for problems which is where negatives belong as opposed to them becoming a thread in the main property section.

    I actually respect a lot of what you and others on this forum post BUT at the end of the day I try to help to restore a balance whereby your experiences and those of the others with problems is A MINORITY – in fact a very small minority. I DO think about what I post – I try to restore a balance that is realistic.

    I cannot stress enough that I have sympathy with those of you not as lucky as myself and the other 99% of people who acheive total satisfaction in their purchases. However, that does not change the fact that you and the other 1% or less with problems are a very small minority and that must be stressed to the newer browsers of this forum. The system in Spain works provided those who are buying follow the correct routes.

    @charlie wrote:

    The fact is there are tens of thousands of us who are not and who have been cheated, conned, let down by so-called professionals who we paid to protect our interests, lied to and are now burdened with great financial worries. We are trying to get through it the best way we can, and one of these ways re. advice and support is a forum like SPI.

    In your own words, there are tens of thousands (although IMO this number is rather inflated) with problems compared with the tens of millions (including possibly 500,000 Brit Ex-pats) with no problems. As I say, those with problems are a small percentage and balance needs to exist.

    @charlie wrote:

    And the reason it’s divided up into a number of subject threads is so people who for example are seeking advice on their court cases don’t get bogged down by people who have had a lovely experience

    Correct, but IMO those people seeking advice on their court cases should be posting in the problems section and not the main section where the vast majority of people who have had lovely experiences should be sharing them with potential buyers. The problems that a minority of buyers have had should not be allowed to over shaddow the positive experiences of the vast (99%) majority.

    @charlie wrote:

    It would be a help all round on threads like this if you just chilled and went and made yourself a nice cup of cocoa instead

    Why? To allow a false picture of the Spanish Property Market to be portrayed by a very small minority of people? To allow this forum to project a false and distorted overall picture of the market? No – I will add balance to the posts whilst enjoying a drink that is lot more Spanish than Cocoa!

    @charlie wrote:

    If only people posted on it that actually had court cases, or had information regarding court cases, it could have been a very valuable source of advice for others.

    Fine – if it was to be restricted to fact and not opinions and if it had been posted in the correct section – problems. Once people with court cases start to express opinions of a general nature that are far from fact in 99% of the property transactions that occur in Spain, the thread rightly becomes open to the posting of corrections that reflect the true situation of the majority.

    @charlie wrote:

    Personally, I don’t give a monkey how many happy purchasers there are

    And Charlie, it shows when you make posts like the one above! There are at least 99 happy purchasers to each unhappy purchaser – you should give a monkey’s that you are in the minority and that there is another (much larger) side to the story. Does not help you, does not reduce the stress and problems you face, but there is another side and you must learn to respect it.

    @charlie wrote:

    if only certain developers in Spain acted like Barretts then is all I can say.

    Barretts and other major UK house builders seem to feature on numerous occassions on Watchdog etc. In fact, if it was not for them, I am sure Mr Cambell’s contract would only be for half the programmes that they air!

    @charlie wrote:

    Cancel the contract due to developers breach and obtain a refund and demand compensation???? In Spain they laugh in your face and will make you go to court first, even when they haven’t built anything after three years (that’s of course if they even answer your lawyer/e-mail/telephone calls). And that statement is from personal experience so please don’t bother contradicting.

    Initially they would laugh in your face in the UK as well. However, they will eventually get their court papers and initially they would go for delaying tactics. That is a worldwide thing – “let’s try and stretch things out and make sure they run out of money and maybe they will go away”. As a self employed business man it could well be my first course of action – it has always gone on (refer David and Goliath but remember the result if you can keep on in there). No need to contradict but justice and due process take time.

    @charlie wrote:

    Suggest you don’t have a look at the ACTION thread – nineteen pages long and nearly three hundred posts….all about ‘negative’ stuff and action against the corruption.

    I have read most of it and it is in the right place, the problems section. On the whole it is not about action against the corruption, it is about action against breach of contracts. The one main area of corruption is in respect of Marbella. The Junta and the Town Hall are doing their best to ensure that individuals do not lose. They are changing the Town Plan so as to legalise many properties that should be pulled down. This will take another year (within the legal framework) and buyers will need to be patient – so many of the problems there will be sorted out because the Spanish are trying to make sure it happens. At the end of the day, if purchasers chosen lawyers had done the job right they would not have bought into the problems. However, no one was forced to use any given firm of lawyers – they chose to do so.

    @charlie wrote:

    And a petition to complain about Spain’s behaviour to the EU

    The petition should not be belittled in any way – all routes are worth a try. However, IMO a petition and letters to the EU and MEP’s will not work. The reactions being gained, in effect that the EU an MEP’s cannot become involved in the internal legal system of a member state are correct. The legal framework exists in Spain to deal with matters and it may take time, it may be delayed, it may be subject to abuses (but that is why there is an appeal court system). The EU cannot override what is a law in Spain (unless it breaches Human Rights). Valencia and Land Grab maybe a seperate issue as opposed to breaches of contract but even then there is an argument that the Land Grab Law existed when the affected properties were purchsed so should the purchasers have known? Don’t know, but my own interest and knowledge are with the CDS and I do not pretend to know anything about the situation in Valencia. At the end of the day, those that had a contract for a purchase that has gone wrong will have had a clause within that contract that in the event of problems / disputes / breaches, both parties will submit to the jurisdiction of [whatever town] court to resolve. That is a contract terms accepted [willingly] by both parties and is binding. Because a purchaser does not like the way that [whatever town] court deals with matters or it’s sentences, that is not a reason to ask the EU or a UK MEP to intervene in a court matter where the jurisdiction was clearly agreed in the contract under dispute. That is like asking Burger King to give a refund because your Big Mac was cold!!

    @charlie wrote:

    You will have a cardiac arrest

    Have had three and that was one of the reasons that made me move to Spain! Get 10 times better treatment under the Spanish NHS compared with that in the UK – but that is going off topic!

    @charlie wrote:

    this forum is a platform for ….. the freedom of voicing … opinions

    Agree, so will you (and certain others) also agree that you are entitled to voice opinions as a minority but that those of us with a different opinion based on fact are likewise entitled to express that opinion? At the end of the day, I am in the 99% majority and have had seven “lovely” property transactions without problem. I will express again that I have every sympathy with those that have problems (even if many are self inflicted) BUT there are so many more of us with positive experiences that should express them and emphasise that as being the norm in the vast majority (99%) of cases.

    I will respect your position and hope that you acheive a satisfactory conclusion but in return I ask that you respect that 99% of us have good experiences with the system and love the life we have. Problems like those that you and other have experienced, whilst not nice to deal with, are the exception and not the rule. Let others follow through their dream in the knowledge that they are at least 99% certain to have no problems and even more certain if they read these forums and learn from the experiences (and at times mistakes) of the minority.

    Charlie – Respect

  • #74366
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie, out of your 900 plus posts in this forum, there are at least 700 that are useful and informative. However, there are also others, like this one, where you put on a different hat and fail to accept that you are actually in a minority. Posts like this by you and others that cannot see that you are in a minority, actually are posts that devalue this forum. This forum is supposed to be an insight to the spanish property market and as such negative posts should actually count for less than 1% of the total posts if it is to reflect the real property market here in Spain! In fact, Mark has created a new section for problems which is where negatives belong as opposed to them becoming a thread in the main property section.

    I actually respect a lot of what you and others on this forum post BUT at the end of the day I try to help to restore a balance whereby your experiences and those of the others with problems is A MINORITY – in fact a very small minority. I DO think about what I post – I try to restore a balance that is realistic.

    I cannot stress enough that I have sympathy with those of you not as lucky as myself and the other 99% of people who acheive total satisfaction in their purchases. However, that does not change the fact that you and the other 1% or less with problems are a very small minority and that must be stressed to the newer browsers of this forum. The system in Spain works provided those who are buying follow the correct routes.

    @charlie wrote:

    The fact is there are tens of thousands of us who are not and who have been cheated, conned, let down by so-called professionals who we paid to protect our interests, lied to and are now burdened with great financial worries. We are trying to get through it the best way we can, and one of these ways re. advice and support is a forum like SPI.

    In your own words, there are tens of thousands (although IMO this number is rather inflated) with problems compared with the tens of millions (including possibly 500,000 Brit Ex-pats) with no problems. As I say, those with problems are a small percentage and balance needs to exist.

    @charlie wrote:

    And the reason it’s divided up into a number of subject threads is so people who for example are seeking advice on their court cases don’t get bogged down by people who have had a lovely experience

    Correct, but IMO those people seeking advice on their court cases should be posting in the problems section and not the main section where the vast majority of people who have had lovely experiences should be sharing them with potential buyers. The problems that a minority of buyers have had should not be allowed to over shaddow the positive experiences of the vast (99%) majority.

    @charlie wrote:

    It would be a help all round on threads like this if you just chilled and went and made yourself a nice cup of cocoa instead

    Why? To allow a false picture of the Spanish Property Market to be portrayed by a very small minority of people? To allow this forum to project a false and distorted overall picture of the market? No – I will add balance to the posts whilst enjoying a drink that is lot more Spanish than Cocoa!

    @charlie wrote:

    If only people posted on it that actually had court cases, or had information regarding court cases, it could have been a very valuable source of advice for others.

    Fine – if it was to be restricted to fact and not opinions and if it had been posted in the correct section – problems. Once people with court cases start to express opinions of a general nature that are far from fact in 99% of the property transactions that occur in Spain, the thread rightly becomes open to the posting of corrections that reflect the true situation of the majority.

    @charlie wrote:

    Personally, I don’t give a monkey how many happy purchasers there are

    And Charlie, it shows when you make posts like the one above! There are at least 99 happy purchasers to each unhappy purchaser – you should give a monkey’s that you are in the minority and that there is another (much larger) side to the story. Does not help you, does not reduce the stress and problems you face, but there is another side and you must learn to respect it.

    @charlie wrote:

    if only certain developers in Spain acted like Barretts then is all I can say.

    Barretts and other major UK house builders seem to feature on numerous occassions on Watchdog etc. In fact, if it was not for them, I am sure Mr Cambell’s contract would only be for half the programmes that they air!

    @charlie wrote:

    Cancel the contract due to developers breach and obtain a refund and demand compensation???? In Spain they laugh in your face and will make you go to court first, even when they haven’t built anything after three years (that’s of course if they even answer your lawyer/e-mail/telephone calls). And that statement is from personal experience so please don’t bother contradicting.

    Initially they would laugh in your face in the UK as well. However, they will eventually get their court papers and initially they would go for delaying tactics. That is a worldwide thing – “let’s try and stretch things out and make sure they run out of money and maybe they will go away”. As a self employed business man it could well be my first course of action – it has always gone on (refer David and Goliath but remember the result if you can keep on in there). No need to contradict but justice and due process take time.

    @charlie wrote:

    Suggest you don’t have a look at the ACTION thread – nineteen pages long and nearly three hundred posts….all about ‘negative’ stuff and action against the corruption.

    I have read most of it and it is in the right place, the problems section. On the whole it is not about action against the corruption, it is about action against breach of contracts. The one main area of corruption is in respect of Marbella. The Junta and the Town Hall are doing their best to ensure that individuals do not lose. They are changing the Town Plan so as to legalise many properties that should be pulled down. This will take another year (within the legal framework) and buyers will need to be patient – so many of the problems there will be sorted out because the Spanish are trying to make sure it happens. At the end of the day, if purchasers chosen lawyers had done the job right they would not have bought into the problems. However, no one was forced to use any given firm of lawyers – they chose to do so.

    @charlie wrote:

    And a petition to complain about Spain’s behaviour to the EU

    The petition should not be belittled in any way – all routes are worth a try. However, IMO a petition and letters to the EU and MEP’s will not work. The reactions being gained, in effect that the EU an MEP’s cannot become involved in the internal legal system of a member state are correct. The legal framework exists in Spain to deal with matters and it may take time, it may be delayed, it may be subject to abuses (but that is why there is an appeal court system). The EU cannot override what is a law in Spain (unless it breaches Human Rights). Valencia and Land Grab maybe a seperate issue as opposed to breaches of contract but even then there is an argument that the Land Grab Law existed when the affected properties were purchsed so should the purchasers have known? Don’t know, but my own interest and knowledge are with the CDS and I do not pretend to know anything about the situation in Valencia. At the end of the day, those that had a contract for a purchase that has gone wrong will have had a clause within that contract that in the event of problems / disputes / breaches, both parties will submit to the jurisdiction of [whatever town] court to resolve. That is a contract terms accepted [willingly] by both parties and is binding. Because a purchaser does not like the way that [whatever town] court deals with matters or it’s sentences, that is not a reason to ask the EU or a UK MEP to intervene in a court matter where the jurisdiction was clearly agreed in the contract under dispute. That is like asking Burger King to give a refund because your Big Mac was cold!!

    @charlie wrote:

    You will have a cardiac arrest

    Have had three and that was one of the reasons that made me move to Spain! Get 10 times better treatment under the Spanish NHS compared with that in the UK – but that is going off topic!

    @charlie wrote:

    this forum is a platform for ….. the freedom of voicing … opinions

    Agree, so will you (and certain others) also agree that you are entitled to voice opinions as a minority but that those of us with a different opinion based on fact are likewise entitled to express that opinion? At the end of the day, I am in the 99% majority and have had seven “lovely” property transactions without problem. I will express again that I have every sympathy with those that have problems (even if many are self inflicted) BUT there are so many more of us with positive experiences that should express them and emphasise that as being the norm in the vast majority (99%) of cases.

    I will respect your position and hope that you acheive a satisfactory conclusion but in return I ask that you respect that 99% of us have good experiences with the system and love the life we have. Problems like those that you and other have experienced, whilst not nice to deal with, are the exception and not the rule. Let others follow through their dream in the knowledge that they are at least 99% certain to have no problems and even more certain if they read these forums and learn from the experiences (and at times mistakes) of the minority.

    Charlie – Respect

  • #74567
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I see you decided against the cocoa then.

  • #74367
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I see you decided against the cocoa then.

  • #74568
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    My sence of humour. 😀

    Frank

  • #74368
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    My sence of humour. 😀

    Frank

  • #74569
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    charlie

    as we well know, the situatuation for many buying in Spain is desperate, and those denying this, sadly sound just as desperate with attemps to convince people that very few buyers have problems. If that were true, i doubt those few problems would have even made a headline, that alone probably one of the biggest scams ever in the property world. I guess you can’t blame people trying their best to protect their own interests. I, like you, would rather face the facts as we find them, but whatever floats your boat?

  • #74369
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    charlie

    as we well know, the situatuation for many buying in Spain is desperate, and those denying this, sadly sound just as desperate with attemps to convince people that very few buyers have problems. If that were true, i doubt those few problems would have even made a headline, that alone probably one of the biggest scams ever in the property world. I guess you can’t blame people trying their best to protect their own interests. I, like you, would rather face the facts as we find them, but whatever floats your boat?

  • #74571
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    paulandlyn

    Well said again!

    regards

    Paul

  • #74371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    paulandlyn

    Well said again!

    regards

    Paul

  • #74572
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ??????????

  • #74372
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ??????????

  • #74573
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    charlie

    as we well know, the situatuation for many buying in Spain is desperate, and those denying this, sadly sound just as desperate with attemps to convince people that very few buyers have problems. If that were true, i doubt those few problems would have even made a headline, that alone probably one of the biggest scams ever in the property world. I guess you can’t blame people trying their best to protect their own interests. I, like you, would rather face the facts as we find them, but whatever floats your boat?

    Goodstitch , the situation for some is desperate and no-one denies this but not the many, as you would have it.
    Those of us who live here know many,many more happy than unhappy purchasers and of the latter it’s via this forum .
    And these are the facts so lets keep everything in perspective.

    Wouldn’t say anyone didn’t have minor problems to iron out but certainly wouldn’t lie to ” float my boat” or “protect my interest”
    Like you many with BIG problems purchased via the few scumbag UK based promotors and worse still their used recommended UK lawyers!!.

    Suzanne is doing an excellant job in highlighting those with problems, mostly with a certain few developers, and I hope that everyone on this forum involved in court cases has a satisfactory conclusion.

  • #74373
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    charlie

    as we well know, the situatuation for many buying in Spain is desperate, and those denying this, sadly sound just as desperate with attemps to convince people that very few buyers have problems. If that were true, i doubt those few problems would have even made a headline, that alone probably one of the biggest scams ever in the property world. I guess you can’t blame people trying their best to protect their own interests. I, like you, would rather face the facts as we find them, but whatever floats your boat?

    Goodstitch , the situation for some is desperate and no-one denies this but not the many, as you would have it.
    Those of us who live here know many,many more happy than unhappy purchasers and of the latter it’s via this forum .
    And these are the facts so lets keep everything in perspective.

    Wouldn’t say anyone didn’t have minor problems to iron out but certainly wouldn’t lie to ” float my boat” or “protect my interest”
    Like you many with BIG problems purchased via the few scumbag UK based promotors and worse still their used recommended UK lawyers!!.

    Suzanne is doing an excellant job in highlighting those with problems, mostly with a certain few developers, and I hope that everyone on this forum involved in court cases has a satisfactory conclusion.

  • #74574
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine

    i take your point, and yes i think most initial problems were caused mainly by a few scum bag UK and Spanish agents using dodgy lawyers and even worse developers. That’s bad enough, but it’s the very poor and in some cases corrupt system that fails to come down hard and fast on these crooks and give fast justice to the victims that really rubs salt in the wound. This is now, and has been a problem for a large number of people for far to long. Anyone who tries to treat this as a small matter is not seing things as they are. And let’s not forget the sites not finished, no LFO, BG’s, cranes, buildings nobody wants, it’s all part of the same mess that’s now doing Spain so much damage. Can many really be happy with the situation on the CDS and CB?

  • #74374
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine

    i take your point, and yes i think most initial problems were caused mainly by a few scum bag UK and Spanish agents using dodgy lawyers and even worse developers. That’s bad enough, but it’s the very poor and in some cases corrupt system that fails to come down hard and fast on these crooks and give fast justice to the victims that really rubs salt in the wound. This is now, and has been a problem for a large number of people for far to long. Anyone who tries to treat this as a small matter is not seing things as they are. And let’s not forget the sites not finished, no LFO, BG’s, cranes, buildings nobody wants, it’s all part of the same mess that’s now doing Spain so much damage. Can many really be happy with the situation on the CDS and CB?

  • #74575
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Can many really be happy with the situation on the CDS

    yes, I know hundreds

  • #74375
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Can many really be happy with the situation on the CDS

    yes, I know hundreds

  • #74576
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    Can many really be happy with the situation on the CDS and CB?

    Goodstitch, all the hundreds of Lawyers involved in the Court cases must be very happy Then there are the hundreds of developers who have taken all the deposits. The hundreds of REA’s who have had their commission. The list goes on 😉

  • #74376
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    Can many really be happy with the situation on the CDS and CB?

    Goodstitch, all the hundreds of Lawyers involved in the Court cases must be very happy Then there are the hundreds of developers who have taken all the deposits. The hundreds of REA’s who have had their commission. The list goes on 😉

  • #74577
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstitch, all the hundreds of Lawyers involved in the Court cases must be very happy Then there are the hundreds of developers who have taken all the deposits. The hundreds of REA’s who have had their commission. The list goes on

    Thousands then

  • #74377
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstitch, all the hundreds of Lawyers involved in the Court cases must be very happy Then there are the hundreds of developers who have taken all the deposits. The hundreds of REA’s who have had their commission. The list goes on

    Thousands then

  • #74578
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    p800aul

    ……….yes, sorry if you include the crooks, thousands!

  • #74378
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    p800aul

    ……….yes, sorry if you include the crooks, thousands!

  • #74581
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    p800aul

    ……….yes, sorry if you include the crooks, thousands!

    You missed my point, i should have been clearer to avoid any misunderstanding.

    I personally know of hundreds of OWNERS, who as far as I’m aware are not crooks, who are happy with the way things are on the CDS. I know three other community presidents who also know hundreds of OWNERS who are happy (could be crooks I don’t know.) In fact most of them where there last week when we where 🙂

    I don’t know any crooks as I make every effort not associate with them, if you both know hundreds then maybe thats where it all went wrong.

  • #74381
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    p800aul

    ……….yes, sorry if you include the crooks, thousands!

    You missed my point, i should have been clearer to avoid any misunderstanding.

    I personally know of hundreds of OWNERS, who as far as I’m aware are not crooks, who are happy with the way things are on the CDS. I know three other community presidents who also know hundreds of OWNERS who are happy (could be crooks I don’t know.) In fact most of them where there last week when we where 🙂

    I don’t know any crooks as I make every effort not associate with them, if you both know hundreds then maybe thats where it all went wrong.

  • #74582
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yup and still there are many buying off plan.
    How odd, how stupid. Will people ever learn?

  • #74382
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yup and still there are many buying off plan.
    How odd, how stupid. Will people ever learn?

  • #74584
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg
    There you go again with that word just to get a responce. ❓
    Remind me ?
    What interest do you have at the moment in the Spanish Property market thats gives you the right to judge others. 🙄

    Frank
    One very stupid idiot that left his brains on Easy Jet. 😕 to one very clever cookie.

  • #74384
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg
    There you go again with that word just to get a responce. ❓
    Remind me ?
    What interest do you have at the moment in the Spanish Property market thats gives you the right to judge others. 🙄

    Frank
    One very stupid idiot that left his brains on Easy Jet. 😕 to one very clever cookie.

  • #74586
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi mg – wondered how long it would be ’til you popped up on this thread. 😀

    @mg wrote:

    Yup and still there are many buying off plan.
    How odd, how stupid. Will people ever learn?

    I know, crazy isn’t it. But it’s all those crooks you see waiting to rip people off. But sshh, don’t talk about it, people will think you’re anti-Spanish. And we must be careful not to devalue the forum with our posts.

    Anyway, why should anyone worry too much? 😀
    Apparently it will only be a few that will have minor problems to iron out, and as they join tens of thousands of others who have been conned, they will feel greatly comforted knowing that when all is said and done the important thing to remember is we only represent a minority after all. And knowing that really makes us feel a whole lot better…..honestly.

    So come on Frank, don’t worry
    we know all these people know best.

  • #74386
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi mg – wondered how long it would be ’til you popped up on this thread. 😀

    @mg wrote:

    Yup and still there are many buying off plan.
    How odd, how stupid. Will people ever learn?

    I know, crazy isn’t it. But it’s all those crooks you see waiting to rip people off. But sshh, don’t talk about it, people will think you’re anti-Spanish. And we must be careful not to devalue the forum with our posts.

    Anyway, why should anyone worry too much? 😀
    Apparently it will only be a few that will have minor problems to iron out, and as they join tens of thousands of others who have been conned, they will feel greatly comforted knowing that when all is said and done the important thing to remember is we only represent a minority after all. And knowing that really makes us feel a whole lot better…..honestly.

    So come on Frank, don’t worry
    we know all these people know best.

  • #74587
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “There you go again with that word just to get a responce.”
    And what “word” would that be?

    “What interest do you have at the moment in the Spanish Property market”
    Much

    “thats gives you the right to judge others.”
    No right, but entitled to an opinion and still say with all the publicity over recent months regarding what has happened to others, would anyone with much sense still rush to buy off-plan, especially usine a lawyer recommended by a developer?

    “But it’s all those crooks you see waiting to rip people off”
    And all the stupid punters rushing out there despite all the publicity, to hand their (or the banks) money over.
    It is not surprising that the developers just laugh, no matter what they do, who they con, there are always more queing up to get conned.

  • #74387
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “There you go again with that word just to get a responce.”
    And what “word” would that be?

    “What interest do you have at the moment in the Spanish Property market”
    Much

    “thats gives you the right to judge others.”
    No right, but entitled to an opinion and still say with all the publicity over recent months regarding what has happened to others, would anyone with much sense still rush to buy off-plan, especially usine a lawyer recommended by a developer?

    “But it’s all those crooks you see waiting to rip people off”
    And all the stupid punters rushing out there despite all the publicity, to hand their (or the banks) money over.
    It is not surprising that the developers just laugh, no matter what they do, who they con, there are always more queing up to get conned.

  • #74588
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg – on a serious note for a moment, it is interesting that in Greece all the Brits arriving on hols. that I have spoken to and who are interested in buying property here all say a) how all the tv programmes re. the corruption/horror stories in Spain has totally put them off buying there and b) how they hate how Spain has been so overdeveloped with properties they wouldn’t want to live in anyway.

    So it does seem that awareness through the UK media has kicked in – it will be interesting to see how Spanish property in general fares at the UK property exhibitions compared to previous years. I really can’t believe they will be coming over to Spain in their droves and that so many will be so ‘blinkered’ as in previous years. One can only hope.

  • #74388
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg – on a serious note for a moment, it is interesting that in Greece all the Brits arriving on hols. that I have spoken to and who are interested in buying property here all say a) how all the tv programmes re. the corruption/horror stories in Spain has totally put them off buying there and b) how they hate how Spain has been so overdeveloped with properties they wouldn’t want to live in anyway.

    So it does seem that awareness through the UK media has kicked in – it will be interesting to see how Spanish property in general fares at the UK property exhibitions compared to previous years. I really can’t believe they will be coming over to Spain in their droves and that so many will be so ‘blinkered’ as in previous years. One can only hope.

  • #74589
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I really can’t believe they will be coming over to Spain in their droves and that so many will be so ‘blinkered’ as in previous years. One can only hope.”
    Let’s hope so and this will starve dubious developers of funds, although some good ones will also suffer.
    Unfortunately, if a developer is starved and fails to continue trading, there will be many, many who will lose out on the money they have already parted with

  • #74389
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I really can’t believe they will be coming over to Spain in their droves and that so many will be so ‘blinkered’ as in previous years. One can only hope.”
    Let’s hope so and this will starve dubious developers of funds, although some good ones will also suffer.
    Unfortunately, if a developer is starved and fails to continue trading, there will be many, many who will lose out on the money they have already parted with

  • #74590
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    How many newbies have come onto the forum recently and said “we paid a deposit on an off-plan apartment in 2006/2007…….”? None that I recall. Most of the people who post on this forum who paid deposits on off plan developments, in good faith, paid them in 2003/2004. Bear in mind that the Spanish property scandal was only uncovered in late 2005. These are the people who are still waiting for their Court cases to be heard three years down the line,(such is the Spanish legal system) and who will hopefully get their deposits returned from the disreputable people that they encountered.

    I doubt there are many people now who are not well informed about how the Spanish property system works …or doesn’t work.

    It seems many people are having to wait until 2008 for their Court hearings. It will be interesting to see what the post topics on this forum are in 2008 and also how many people are caught in off-plan scams between 2007/ 2009. Not many I’d say.

  • #74390
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    How many newbies have come onto the forum recently and said “we paid a deposit on an off-plan apartment in 2006/2007…….”? None that I recall. Most of the people who post on this forum who paid deposits on off plan developments, in good faith, paid them in 2003/2004. Bear in mind that the Spanish property scandal was only uncovered in late 2005. These are the people who are still waiting for their Court cases to be heard three years down the line,(such is the Spanish legal system) and who will hopefully get their deposits returned from the disreputable people that they encountered.

    I doubt there are many people now who are not well informed about how the Spanish property system works …or doesn’t work.

    It seems many people are having to wait until 2008 for their Court hearings. It will be interesting to see what the post topics on this forum are in 2008 and also how many people are caught in off-plan scams between 2007/ 2009. Not many I’d say.

  • #74591
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg
    Thinks its a case of either put up or shut up if you dont mind me saying
    Also just my opinion you understand. 😉

    Frank

  • #74391
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg
    Thinks its a case of either put up or shut up if you dont mind me saying
    Also just my opinion you understand. 😉

    Frank

  • #74592
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi to you all

    Here are tonights football results

    Frank Utd 1 MG 0
    Paul&Lyn 2 Charlie 2

    Need I go on

    This has gone off topic since OP and should really be on the problem forum.

    Hey its the weekend tomorrow and I’m coming over on Monday, with all the negative news and info, I still get excited.

  • #74392
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi to you all

    Here are tonights football results

    Frank Utd 1 MG 0
    Paul&Lyn 2 Charlie 2

    Need I go on

    This has gone off topic since OP and should really be on the problem forum.

    Hey its the weekend tomorrow and I’m coming over on Monday, with all the negative news and info, I still get excited.

  • #74593
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Stevev6 wrote:

    This has gone off topic since OP and should really be on the problem forum.

    Of the 31 threads on this first page of ‘Spanish Property Forum’ it looks to me like over 50% of them ‘should really be on the problem forum’. Says it all really, doesn’t it. Maybe it should get top billing.

  • #74393
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Stevev6 wrote:

    This has gone off topic since OP and should really be on the problem forum.

    Of the 31 threads on this first page of ‘Spanish Property Forum’ it looks to me like over 50% of them ‘should really be on the problem forum’. Says it all really, doesn’t it. Maybe it should get top billing.

  • #74597
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    Most of the people who post on this forum who paid deposits on off plan developments, in good faith, paid them in 2003/2004……These are the people who are still waiting for their Court cases to be heard three years down the line….and who will hopefully get their deposits returned from the disreputable people that they encountered.

    Claire – you are spot on. This is the same kind of thinking that I have and why I do at times get so annoyed by the way that a handfull of regular posters to this forum take every chance they can to twist each and every thread to bring up the same old problems.

    @Suzanne wrote:

    Of the 31 threads on this first page of ‘Spanish Property Forum’ it looks to me like over 50% of them ‘should really be on the problem forum’.

    On the whole agree, but taking it one step further, the 15 threads you refer to should actually only be three or four. Each of them are a rant about Ocean View, Afios etc. Maybe it would be best for there to be a thread for each problem developer or development in the problems section and for all problems with [say] Aifos to be posted in a single thread. I think that so many threads are being hijacked with the repetition of previous postings just to keep a historic problem alive and fresh. It is making the forum very difficult to follow and to be honest very boring. It also is very non constructive in terms of information or insight into the Spanish Property Market. A good example is that on another thread a question was asked about when IVA should be payable on a new build. All of a sudden it turned into a discussion about the furniture packages offered via Ocean View and that there is dog s**t on parkland en-route to a shared pool. Don’t think that adds value for IVA to be paid on? The same post then appears in four other threads.

    The fact that certain buyers have had problems on specific developments, with specific developers, via specific agents and are now taking court action is now old hat that does not need repeating in every post.

    The fact that there is evidence of corruption within certain Town Halls by certain individuals is the subject of criminal proceedings at the moment against the individuals concerned.

    Because court action in both areas is pending, I would actually think that there is a question raised that continued discussion is actually subjudice.

    The fact that court cases are taking three years to reach court is a fact and something that would happen in many court systems including the UK.

    Instead of the continued postings of the same old facts can we not wish those with problems the best of luck with their cases and ask that you keep us all advised via the problems section of actual relevant happenings and of course the final sentences but do not twist every main forum thread into becoming a soap box against the system that you contracted freely to buy into.

  • #74397
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    Most of the people who post on this forum who paid deposits on off plan developments, in good faith, paid them in 2003/2004……These are the people who are still waiting for their Court cases to be heard three years down the line….and who will hopefully get their deposits returned from the disreputable people that they encountered.

    Claire – you are spot on. This is the same kind of thinking that I have and why I do at times get so annoyed by the way that a handfull of regular posters to this forum take every chance they can to twist each and every thread to bring up the same old problems.

    @Suzanne wrote:

    Of the 31 threads on this first page of ‘Spanish Property Forum’ it looks to me like over 50% of them ‘should really be on the problem forum’.

    On the whole agree, but taking it one step further, the 15 threads you refer to should actually only be three or four. Each of them are a rant about Ocean View, Afios etc. Maybe it would be best for there to be a thread for each problem developer or development in the problems section and for all problems with [say] Aifos to be posted in a single thread. I think that so many threads are being hijacked with the repetition of previous postings just to keep a historic problem alive and fresh. It is making the forum very difficult to follow and to be honest very boring. It also is very non constructive in terms of information or insight into the Spanish Property Market. A good example is that on another thread a question was asked about when IVA should be payable on a new build. All of a sudden it turned into a discussion about the furniture packages offered via Ocean View and that there is dog s**t on parkland en-route to a shared pool. Don’t think that adds value for IVA to be paid on? The same post then appears in four other threads.

    The fact that certain buyers have had problems on specific developments, with specific developers, via specific agents and are now taking court action is now old hat that does not need repeating in every post.

    The fact that there is evidence of corruption within certain Town Halls by certain individuals is the subject of criminal proceedings at the moment against the individuals concerned.

    Because court action in both areas is pending, I would actually think that there is a question raised that continued discussion is actually subjudice.

    The fact that court cases are taking three years to reach court is a fact and something that would happen in many court systems including the UK.

    Instead of the continued postings of the same old facts can we not wish those with problems the best of luck with their cases and ask that you keep us all advised via the problems section of actual relevant happenings and of course the final sentences but do not twist every main forum thread into becoming a soap box against the system that you contracted freely to buy into.

  • #74599
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think every single forum regardless of its nature, goes off topic from the originators post. If the originator of the post does not continue to post it is for sure going to veer away from the subject. This forum has always been mainly about peoples problems in the Spanish property sector. Only recently has Mark created a separate problem forum. As I understand it his was mainly due to keep Suzanne’s petition away from the main forum and to prevent the petition from going off topic .

    Often people come here, ask a question, get an answer and go away again. It does not mean someone else cannot post on that same thread, who may have a similar experience, but one that veers away from the original post.

    [quote paulandlyn”

    Instead of the continued postings of the same old facts can we not wish those with problems the best of luck with their cases and ask that you keep us all advised via the problems section of actual relevant happenings and of course the final sentences but do not twist every main forum thread into becoming a soap box against the system that you contracted freely to buy into.

    It is this kind of repetetive remark that triggers “the same old facts!”

    Paulandlyn and P800aul say they know thousands of happy people who have “happy” tales. Why do they not post here and on other forums? Because they have no need to. It has been tried several times before to get a “happy” thread. It consists of mainly REA’s hyping up the market. Only a few genuinely happy people living in Spain bother to post. If they posted regularly, what could they say that was not repetetive? Maybe eg. Another glorious day, wonderful beaches, great food & wine, friendly people Then what?

    How many conversations that people have day to day stay 100% on topic?

  • #74399
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think every single forum regardless of its nature, goes off topic from the originators post. If the originator of the post does not continue to post it is for sure going to veer away from the subject. This forum has always been mainly about peoples problems in the Spanish property sector. Only recently has Mark created a separate problem forum. As I understand it his was mainly due to keep Suzanne’s petition away from the main forum and to prevent the petition from going off topic .

    Often people come here, ask a question, get an answer and go away again. It does not mean someone else cannot post on that same thread, who may have a similar experience, but one that veers away from the original post.

    [quote paulandlyn”

    Instead of the continued postings of the same old facts can we not wish those with problems the best of luck with their cases and ask that you keep us all advised via the problems section of actual relevant happenings and of course the final sentences but do not twist every main forum thread into becoming a soap box against the system that you contracted freely to buy into.

    It is this kind of repetetive remark that triggers “the same old facts!”

    Paulandlyn and P800aul say they know thousands of happy people who have “happy” tales. Why do they not post here and on other forums? Because they have no need to. It has been tried several times before to get a “happy” thread. It consists of mainly REA’s hyping up the market. Only a few genuinely happy people living in Spain bother to post. If they posted regularly, what could they say that was not repetetive? Maybe eg. Another glorious day, wonderful beaches, great food & wine, friendly people Then what?

    How many conversations that people have day to day stay 100% on topic?

  • #74600
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    PaulandLyn

    i am one of those who got shafted in 2002, well before the corruption/scams blew up. We bought after gaining what knowledge was available at the time and doing our homework, using similar care to we would in the UK. Sadly, unlike in the UK, we were conned by those we felt we could trust as part of the legal ststem, simple as that, not only by the UK agents, but by the lawyers and the developers. The reason we and others still bang on about it is simply because of the rubbish system that means we still haven’t got justice after over 5 years down the line. If a half decent system were in place with regards to planning/building regs etc, and corruption issues had been nipped in the bud, then we would either have a nice appartment to be proud of, or at least we would have our deposit back and have moved on, and i dare say most of todays problems wouldn’t exist?. For those not caught up in this nightmare then i realise it must be very frustrating seeing continual bad press. I just wish that the anger was aimed more at the guilty parties and not the victims of crooks. That way it would probably help us get justice and move on, and help Spain out of the current mess.

    Believe me, we are as sick and tired of this as anyone. We will not lay down and die, we will see this through until we get justice as i’m sure you would if in the same position. Only then will we stop shouting about this as loud as possible, as often as needed and to as many people as possible. and move on.

  • #74401
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    PaulandLyn

    i am one of those who got shafted in 2002, well before the corruption/scams blew up. We bought after gaining what knowledge was available at the time and doing our homework, using similar care to we would in the UK. Sadly, unlike in the UK, we were conned by those we felt we could trust as part of the legal ststem, simple as that, not only by the UK agents, but by the lawyers and the developers. The reason we and others still bang on about it is simply because of the rubbish system that means we still haven’t got justice after over 5 years down the line. If a half decent system were in place with regards to planning/building regs etc, and corruption issues had been nipped in the bud, then we would either have a nice appartment to be proud of, or at least we would have our deposit back and have moved on, and i dare say most of todays problems wouldn’t exist?. For those not caught up in this nightmare then i realise it must be very frustrating seeing continual bad press. I just wish that the anger was aimed more at the guilty parties and not the victims of crooks. That way it would probably help us get justice and move on, and help Spain out of the current mess.

    Believe me, we are as sick and tired of this as anyone. We will not lay down and die, we will see this through until we get justice as i’m sure you would if in the same position. Only then will we stop shouting about this as loud as possible, as often as needed and to as many people as possible. and move on.

  • #74601
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    PaulandLyn, having read the thread from the beginning, it appears to me that you are the ones that sent this thread off course so spectacularly with your 2 posts in response to JustFranks. This happened on page 2, of the now 7 pages.

    If your “pet hate” is not having this kind of discussion or these kind of views aired, you went completely the wrong way about it.

    If you feel so strongly, then you should have started a new thread on the topic of people airing these historic views, instead of hijacking this one.

    These forums are places where people can express their views freely and people who have been caught in the scams are still suffering the after effects and in the main wish to stop others suffering the same fate, as well as trying to find a way out of their own personal nightmare. It is frustrating to see the same things happening now (3 – 5 years down the line), the same lawyers doing the same things, their developer still trying to sell dodgy houses to the unsuspecting and the dodgy REA’s doing the same, while loudly proclaiming that all is “fully legal”.

    I’m guessing that a lot of new forumers only read the most recent threads which is why the stories keep cropping up. If the warnings are fresh, it may save others the heartache.

    When this post veered off course, had the “problem, problem” section been set up? I cant remember, I lose track of time on this thing.

    I for one who is caught up in the property scam, neither through speculative greed gone wrong or forgetting my head totally (we genuinely thought we had all bases covered), we dont need unhelpful judgements from people like yourselves. Talk about kicking people when they are down! Try to sympathise even if you cant empathise.

  • #74403
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    PaulandLyn, having read the thread from the beginning, it appears to me that you are the ones that sent this thread off course so spectacularly with your 2 posts in response to JustFranks. This happened on page 2, of the now 7 pages.

    If your “pet hate” is not having this kind of discussion or these kind of views aired, you went completely the wrong way about it.

    If you feel so strongly, then you should have started a new thread on the topic of people airing these historic views, instead of hijacking this one.

    These forums are places where people can express their views freely and people who have been caught in the scams are still suffering the after effects and in the main wish to stop others suffering the same fate, as well as trying to find a way out of their own personal nightmare. It is frustrating to see the same things happening now (3 – 5 years down the line), the same lawyers doing the same things, their developer still trying to sell dodgy houses to the unsuspecting and the dodgy REA’s doing the same, while loudly proclaiming that all is “fully legal”.

    I’m guessing that a lot of new forumers only read the most recent threads which is why the stories keep cropping up. If the warnings are fresh, it may save others the heartache.

    When this post veered off course, had the “problem, problem” section been set up? I cant remember, I lose track of time on this thing.

    I for one who is caught up in the property scam, neither through speculative greed gone wrong or forgetting my head totally (we genuinely thought we had all bases covered), we dont need unhelpful judgements from people like yourselves. Talk about kicking people when they are down! Try to sympathise even if you cant empathise.

  • #74602
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well said Fran.

  • #74405
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well said Fran.

  • #74605
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I agree this is a forum to discuss positive and negative points of the Spanish property market. (not by hijacking a thread on court cases though 👿 )

    However, is there anything positive to discuss about the spanish property market? Prices falling, not many buyers, whole blocks standing empty, for sale and rent signs everywhere. Not just marbella either. Almería, Murcia and the whole of málaga province…and on and on. 🙄

    Many who have had a trouble free purchase during the last few years don’t seem to be very happy with the build quality.(many complaints on other forums too).

  • #74411
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I agree this is a forum to discuss positive and negative points of the Spanish property market. (not by hijacking a thread on court cases though 👿 )

    However, is there anything positive to discuss about the spanish property market? Prices falling, not many buyers, whole blocks standing empty, for sale and rent signs everywhere. Not just marbella either. Almería, Murcia and the whole of málaga province…and on and on. 🙄

    Many who have had a trouble free purchase during the last few years don’t seem to be very happy with the build quality.(many complaints on other forums too).

  • #74606
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    katy

    this is very true of the site we were to be in. Most completed under threat of the developer going bust if they didn’t (yet another con, as the swindling developer is still going strong despite all the negative press and won court cases about them?). These people really are trying to be positive and make the best of a bad job on a poor site. Only those from 40 out of over 200 appartments residents are paying community fees for various reasons of discontent. They only have one poorly kept pool instead of the two in our contracts, and a host of other problems popping up from time to time. Many of these people are trying hard to sell or rent if they can’t sell, so obviously they don’t want to publicise the negative aspects to potential purchasers/renters. With this in mind, i wonder how many other people very unhappy with their situation, would like to speak out if not for financial suicide???

  • #74413
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    katy

    this is very true of the site we were to be in. Most completed under threat of the developer going bust if they didn’t (yet another con, as the swindling developer is still going strong despite all the negative press and won court cases about them?). These people really are trying to be positive and make the best of a bad job on a poor site. Only those from 40 out of over 200 appartments residents are paying community fees for various reasons of discontent. They only have one poorly kept pool instead of the two in our contracts, and a host of other problems popping up from time to time. Many of these people are trying hard to sell or rent if they can’t sell, so obviously they don’t want to publicise the negative aspects to potential purchasers/renters. With this in mind, i wonder how many other people very unhappy with their situation, would like to speak out if not for financial suicide???

  • #74607
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A few weeks ago, yet another person got in touch with me who like us purchased 2003 in the same part of a development that never got built.
    Unlike us, she had not discovered this forum years ago.

    She was not able to learn of the bigger picture that caused her sorry situation. She could not throw question after question at our lawyer members to help her understand the legal position as we were able to do. She could not read information offered by members who were more in the know re. the background of how all this corruption got her into this horrendous situation in the first place. She was totally unaware that she had one of the biggest rogue lawyer firms so-called ‘representing’ her who was actually ‘in bed’ with the developer. She had no experience of the support forums like SPI can bring, or of ‘meeting’ others that shared her situation who could help/inform. She has been totally alone in her distress. She is still, four years later, without her monies returned, still in despair, still angry and stressed – and desperate for help.
    FOR HER THE SUBJECT IS NOT ‘OLD HAT’.
    Arrogance through ignorance can be my only explaination for such an intolerant comment.

    The fall-out from those previous years is as relevant today as it ever was, and still needs to be addressed by any help/info any of us can give.
    Like this lady there are many who are only just discovering forums like SPI, yes – even after all these years and I’m sure they will not be the last.
    This is why we keep this “historic problem alive and fresh“.

    Our ability to have threads on SPI that can maintain awareness regarding all the aspects this corruption is vital.
    Corruption is very much part of the current Spanish property market whether you like it or not and should not be swept under the carpet as something regarded by others as “very boring“. Helping give others an ‘insight’ into what is happening is all part of the value of SPI.

    IMO, this very important thread became devalued by a totally inconstuctive rant beginning page 2. Its content contributed nothing whatsoever to the subject, instead it attempted to ridicule and criticise those very people who needed information on their court cases. The thread should simply have been left alone by those it did not concern or had no interest. Everyone has a right to an opinion I can hear some saying. Yes, but not to the point when it totally destroys the topic of the thread.

    Threads are titled. If it is not of personal interest, no-one is forcing anyone to open it and read it. No-one is forcing anyone to be ‘bored’.
    And as I’ve said before, there is nothing stopping the ‘happy bunnies’ posting their positive views of buying/living in Spain, please…..start a thread and post them. Please.
    We won’t hijack it – we have nothing to prove.

  • #74415
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A few weeks ago, yet another person got in touch with me who like us purchased 2003 in the same part of a development that never got built.
    Unlike us, she had not discovered this forum years ago.

    She was not able to learn of the bigger picture that caused her sorry situation. She could not throw question after question at our lawyer members to help her understand the legal position as we were able to do. She could not read information offered by members who were more in the know re. the background of how all this corruption got her into this horrendous situation in the first place. She was totally unaware that she had one of the biggest rogue lawyer firms so-called ‘representing’ her who was actually ‘in bed’ with the developer. She had no experience of the support forums like SPI can bring, or of ‘meeting’ others that shared her situation who could help/inform. She has been totally alone in her distress. She is still, four years later, without her monies returned, still in despair, still angry and stressed – and desperate for help.
    FOR HER THE SUBJECT IS NOT ‘OLD HAT’.
    Arrogance through ignorance can be my only explaination for such an intolerant comment.

    The fall-out from those previous years is as relevant today as it ever was, and still needs to be addressed by any help/info any of us can give.
    Like this lady there are many who are only just discovering forums like SPI, yes – even after all these years and I’m sure they will not be the last.
    This is why we keep this “historic problem alive and fresh“.

    Our ability to have threads on SPI that can maintain awareness regarding all the aspects this corruption is vital.
    Corruption is very much part of the current Spanish property market whether you like it or not and should not be swept under the carpet as something regarded by others as “very boring“. Helping give others an ‘insight’ into what is happening is all part of the value of SPI.

    IMO, this very important thread became devalued by a totally inconstuctive rant beginning page 2. Its content contributed nothing whatsoever to the subject, instead it attempted to ridicule and criticise those very people who needed information on their court cases. The thread should simply have been left alone by those it did not concern or had no interest. Everyone has a right to an opinion I can hear some saying. Yes, but not to the point when it totally destroys the topic of the thread.

    Threads are titled. If it is not of personal interest, no-one is forcing anyone to open it and read it. No-one is forcing anyone to be ‘bored’.
    And as I’ve said before, there is nothing stopping the ‘happy bunnies’ posting their positive views of buying/living in Spain, please…..start a thread and post them. Please.
    We won’t hijack it – we have nothing to prove.

  • #74608
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    this is very true of the site we were to be in. Most completed under threat of the developer going bust if they didn’t (yet another con, as the swindling developer is still going strong despite all the negative press and won court cases about them?).

    Fools, why not get a legal charge against the property thereby securing the money. This sounds like good money after bad to me, if indeed you are correct.

    These people really are trying to be positive and make the best of a bad job on a poor site. Only those from 40 out of over 200 apartments residents are paying community fees for various reasons of discontent.

    Again fools, the community fees go to the community of owners (i.e. them) not the developer and is for the upkeep of the pools, gardens, insurance etc. this can only damage the community. By not paying they run the risk of having their property seized and sold to recover the fees not paid.

    They only have one poorly kept pool instead of the two in our contracts, and a host of other problems popping up from time to time.

    See above. As for the missing pool secure the property via a legal charge the either sue for a reduction or breach of contract.

    Many of these people are trying hard to sell or rent if they can’t sell, so obviously they don’t want to publicise the negative aspects to potential purchasers/renters.

    No community fees equals poor pools, gardens, security, for sale signs all over etc etc. hardly conducive with looking good to a potential buyer or renter.

    With this in mind, i wonder how many other people very unhappy with their situation, would like to speak out if not for financial suicide???

    Who knows, no doubt suffering in silence

  • #74417
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    this is very true of the site we were to be in. Most completed under threat of the developer going bust if they didn’t (yet another con, as the swindling developer is still going strong despite all the negative press and won court cases about them?).

    Fools, why not get a legal charge against the property thereby securing the money. This sounds like good money after bad to me, if indeed you are correct.

    These people really are trying to be positive and make the best of a bad job on a poor site. Only those from 40 out of over 200 apartments residents are paying community fees for various reasons of discontent.

    Again fools, the community fees go to the community of owners (i.e. them) not the developer and is for the upkeep of the pools, gardens, insurance etc. this can only damage the community. By not paying they run the risk of having their property seized and sold to recover the fees not paid.

    They only have one poorly kept pool instead of the two in our contracts, and a host of other problems popping up from time to time.

    See above. As for the missing pool secure the property via a legal charge the either sue for a reduction or breach of contract.

    Many of these people are trying hard to sell or rent if they can’t sell, so obviously they don’t want to publicise the negative aspects to potential purchasers/renters.

    No community fees equals poor pools, gardens, security, for sale signs all over etc etc. hardly conducive with looking good to a potential buyer or renter.

    With this in mind, i wonder how many other people very unhappy with their situation, would like to speak out if not for financial suicide???

    Who knows, no doubt suffering in silence

  • #74609
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Paul – I don’t know whether it is right to class these people as ‘fools’ by completing, but rather an example of receiving bad legal advice.
    And bad/stupid/corrupt/develop-biased legal advice is part and parcel of what fuelled the corruption cycle for so long – and it’s still continuing.
    Hence a section re. lawyers on the petition Suzanne has started.

  • #74419
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Paul – I don’t know whether it is right to class these people as ‘fools’ by completing, but rather an example of receiving bad legal advice.
    And bad/stupid/corrupt/develop-biased legal advice is part and parcel of what fuelled the corruption cycle for so long – and it’s still continuing.
    Hence a section re. lawyers on the petition Suzanne has started.

  • #74611
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Come on Charlie

    Anyone who knowingly pays 70% after paying 30% for a property which is as bad as goodstich says is not a fool? i am only going on what goodstich is saying which is they are being forced into completing because they think the developer is going bust. Solicitors give advice not orders and any one who is deeply deeply unhappy with the situation, as goodstich suggests, should not take the advice rather look at their 70% and say no.

    Then they don’t pay community fees, placing their property in jeopardy and as you know they pay the legal fees to collect this from the start of proceedings, so costing these owners in distress even more money.

    I thinks fool is a good discription.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #74423
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Come on Charlie

    Anyone who knowingly pays 70% after paying 30% for a property which is as bad as goodstich says is not a fool? i am only going on what goodstich is saying which is they are being forced into completing because they think the developer is going bust. Solicitors give advice not orders and any one who is deeply deeply unhappy with the situation, as goodstich suggests, should not take the advice rather look at their 70% and say no.

    Then they don’t pay community fees, placing their property in jeopardy and as you know they pay the legal fees to collect this from the start of proceedings, so costing these owners in distress even more money.

    I thinks fool is a good discription.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #74614
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes Paul,

    Lawyers do give advice and it should be in the clients favour, reliable and honest.

    People are supposed to be able to trust their lawyers to protect their interests, especially as they are being paid well for doing so.

    As we have heard from previous posts, this unfortunately does not always happen.

    I still think it is harsh to call these poor people fools for having been advised badly. If you cant trust an expert, who can you trust?

    By the way, are you the same Paul as PaulandLyn – you write very similarly?

  • #74429
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes Paul,

    Lawyers do give advice and it should be in the clients favour, reliable and honest.

    People are supposed to be able to trust their lawyers to protect their interests, especially as they are being paid well for doing so.

    As we have heard from previous posts, this unfortunately does not always happen.

    I still think it is harsh to call these poor people fools for having been advised badly. If you cant trust an expert, who can you trust?

    By the way, are you the same Paul as PaulandLyn – you write very similarly?

  • #74615
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    By the way, are you the same Paul as PaulandLyn – you write very similarly?

    Nope, I would be PaulandBridget

    Fran i am not being rude but would you jump from a high bridge on to a motorway if your doctor told you to?

    I’m not suggesting that some of these solicitors are not bent, the evidence is overwhelming to say some are. i say solicitors give advice not orders, and if i was deeply unhappy with the situation i would not part with a great deal more money, that’s taking trust to far. Anyone that does is in my view a fool, undeserving may be, i would rather lose 30% than 100%, and preferabally 0%

    Regards

    Paul

  • #74431
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    By the way, are you the same Paul as PaulandLyn – you write very similarly?

    Nope, I would be PaulandBridget

    Fran i am not being rude but would you jump from a high bridge on to a motorway if your doctor told you to?

    I’m not suggesting that some of these solicitors are not bent, the evidence is overwhelming to say some are. i say solicitors give advice not orders, and if i was deeply unhappy with the situation i would not part with a great deal more money, that’s taking trust to far. Anyone that does is in my view a fool, undeserving may be, i would rather lose 30% than 100%, and preferabally 0%

    Regards

    Paul

  • #74621
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    P800aul

    what an unpleasent attitude you have. As mentioned, back in 2002/3, most people had no reason to believe a lawyer in Spain, advised by a UK agent, would act any different from one in the UK. Do you think people would have felt safer looking for an independant lawyer in Spain?, of course not, they considered it would be in the agents interest to advise them wisely. Do you consider yourself a fool for believing in any of your lawyers? On top of this they were taken for a ride by the agent also, in a sort of sick ‘ betray your faith’ double act. To be fair, i doubt if even these crooks would know just how bad the developers were going to be, but not their problem once they have your deposit?, just cheats cheating cheats sadly, and due to the poor and in many cases proven corrupt system of justice in Spain, who was there to protect decent people trying to make an honest purchase?

    Please at least try and look at this from a view of a fair minded person.

  • #74623
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    And to add fuel to this particular fire, back in 1986 when I was managing a one brach estate agency in Wood Green, North London, I used to recommend – IF ASKED – a lawyer to our clients.

    The reason was because he gave a good and fair service, he would NOT back down against the best interests of his clients and he was fairly priced

    And what did I get out of it??

    A nice lunch once a year at Wheelers in Hampstead as a thank you!

    This is why overseas buyers who need to be in safe hands trust agents over here who come across as plausible, but lie through their back teeth! The buyer should not be blamed for it and it is an offence in the UK certainly to sell using misadvice – I believe its part of the theft and fraud acts – obtaining money by deception certainly is! And if you are a professional and are misleading, you are more in the doggy-doo than an innocent layperson giving his opinion!

    I find it amazing when brokers and lawyers come to my office offering the same services but mainly a nice backhander as intro fee to pass clients as it mainly means they will bend over backwards to keep ME happy (on the basis of more clients) as opposed to ensuring their clients are looked after.

    I have a choice of 4 small independant lawyers I recommend to clients. They all speak english, are entrusted by clients to the degre of becoming the ‘family’ lawyer and will stand up to developers and agents in favour of their clients – including me – which I applaud! Oh, and the ‘intro fee’ that they are perfectly willing to hand over to me??? Well, that gets paid to the client by way of a deduction in the fee to the client!

    And thats how it should be! End of!!!

  • #74629
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich

    As mentioned, back in 2002/3, most people had no reason to believe a lawyer in Spain, advised by a UK agent, would act any different from one in the UK.

    Bad advice is bad advice UK or Spain, I would not take bad advice from anyone if i thought it so and if as you say these people are very unhappy and then told to hand over good money after bad, I would not take that advice. Clearly these people would jump over a bridge if their doctor told them too. We are also speculating here, as this was a scenario you posed, not fact. I am saying anyone who pays good money after bad is a fool, and this is hypothetical not fact. Don’t turn this round on me I am saying this doesn’t or shouldn’t happen i.e. people in general are wise enough not to give someone a great deal of money risking 100% rather than 30%. You are the one saying this happens. By the way i thought we where taking in the present, i.e. people completing now in 2007 not 2002/3

    Do you consider yourself a fool for believing in any of your lawyers?

    Nope, i take advice then make a decision, if I’m not sure i ask someone else.

    On top of this they were taken for a ride by the agent also, in a sort of sick ‘ betray your faith’ double act.

    Lets get one thing straight agents always work for the seller never, never, never for the buyer.

    Please at least try and look at this from a view of a fair minded person.

    I think i am fair minded their are many who have been conned, there are many more very happy. You posed the scenario of people paying 70% after paying 30% and being deeply unhappy not me, i just responded to it. Is it not unpleasant to suggest that people are so foolish as to pay hundreds of thousands of euros for something they are very unhappy with, or do you suppose me such a person?

  • #74637
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    P008aul,

    No I would not jump off a bridge if someone told me to! We had some qualms about our purchase after our lawyer, while initially declaring that the legality was perfect and getting us to part with our deposit. He then back tracked and said he could not continue as our lawyer while not give a comprehensive reason why. We wanted and asked for legal facts but got vagueness.
    So we contacted another, so called respected lawyer, to take a closer 2nd look for us. Having asked him to double and triple check everything re the purchase legality, he also said it was perfect and there were no problems at all . We even got the bank to check before we signed at notary and paid all our money. We needed a mortgage for the balance and wanted to make extra sure that there were no legal problems. They said it was fine too.
    It was not until a year after we had signed and 4 months after we had received our registered escritura and Spanish bank mortgage that the s**t hit the fan and we found out our electricity supply was illegal. After some info digging at the Ayuntamiento, we found our lovely developer had never received permission to build on rural land, so no LFO etc.

    Why did neither lawyer tell us about this but said all was perfect! Even the bank had the papers to check. Even then a 2nd bank who we finally got our mortgage through Ok’d it.

    Are you going to call me a fool for double checking and believing an independant, recommended, trusted by loads of people lawyer, plus 2 banks?

    Here I am with a semi-legal house, I cant live in (no electricity now!), cant sell and cant rent. Wonderful!!

    Any pearls of wisdom?

  • #74639
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Clearly we have a problem here and if there is one reason why I dislike this forum it is some get the wrong end of the stick although i seem to come back for more, maybe i’m the fool here.

    Please try and follow the plot here.

    First i did not paint the scenario Goodstich did, here it is;-

    katy

    this is very true of the site we were to be in. Most completed under threat of the developer going bust if they didn’t (yet another con, as the swindling developer is still going strong despite all the negative press and won court cases about them?). These people really are trying to be positive and make the best of a bad job on a poor site. Only those from 40 out of over 200 appartments residents are paying community fees for various reasons of discontent. They only have one poorly kept pool instead of the two in our contracts, and a host of other problems popping up from time to time. Many of these people are trying hard to sell or rent if they can’t sell, so obviously they don’t want to publicise the negative aspects to potential purchasers/renters. With this in mind, i wonder how many other people very unhappy with their situation, would like to speak out if not for financial suicide???

    So he’s speculating that many on his site have completed after it being obvious that something was wrong because they where in fear of the developer going bust.

    Clear so far?

    I said if that’s the case (this is still speculation) paying 70% to bring their risk to 100% is foolish, that is they are fools for wanting to risk 100% when it is clearly a bad deal which could go pearshape big time.

    End of!

    Your case is clearly different, you did all you could to make sure there wasn’t a problem, you checked and checked, in other words the problems you now face were not staring you in the face.

    This clearly makes you a victim of fraud and NOT a fool.

    Sorry i don’t have any words of wisdom on your problem hopefully you now have a good lawyer.

  • #74640
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    O K

    Thats sorted then ?

    Goodstich ? Did you complete on the property.?then it would look like you just maybe in the idiot club 😯

    Fran ? On the vurge of being in the idiot sector like me as no one made me sign 😕

    FACT WE ALL DID WHAT WE FELT WAS RIGHT AT THE TIME JUST LIKE WE DO EVERYDAY TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER.

    Lets just try to keep people better informed than we were and to do that the information must be aired.(like it or not)
    Drop the guard and the off plan merry go round will start all over again. 😈

    Frank 😉

  • #74642
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Right then – let’s get the names of all the people who read these threads. If they buy a property and come back later with tales of woe we’ll start an idiots thread and abuse them 😈

    I have to say I’m one of the many people who believe this site can and should prove to be a very useful resource to anyone looking to buy in Spain.

    If you’re in a happy situation and have some insights to share which can enable others to enjoy similar success that’s great.

    If you’ve had problems and learned things that may stop others being hurt physically, emotionally or financially it’s great that you can make use of your experiences for the greater good.

    If you’re just spoiling for a fight or get a kick out of judging people less fortunate than yourself then it’s sometimes best to button it. No names mentioned – isn’t that nice.

  • #74645
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Crikey – we’ve had Sunbelt, then Sunsurf and now Suntouched. Is someone having an identity crisis?

    Next it will be Sunstroke….. ❗

  • #74647
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suntouched

    Heres the first member of the idiots thread.

    “BRING IT ON GUYS,GIVE IT YOUR BEST SHOT” 😈

    FRANK 8)

  • #74668
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    fran

    your situation sounds familiar. I think what some people are refusing to accept, is that despite using a so called reliable independent lawyer, as you did, this is still no guarantee that you will be given the right advice, and to some degree this really is a bit of a lottery. We were advised to complete at the wrong time by a certain firm of lawyers, and thankfuly i smelt a rat and changed lawyer, however i have read posts from buyers who said that said they are happy to recomend this same firm of lawyers, and they had no problems? With this in mind, and an over 4 year build time and rumours of the developer going bust, strongly backed up by the the agent!, you can’t really blame people for just wanting to complete so they they didn’t lose their deposit and capital gain, and had something to show for years of worry and waiting. We decided we just couldn’t face putting more money in to this, due to the breaches of contract, so despite being criticised by our agents and our first two lawyers and some other buyers, haven’t completed and will fight this ’till we get our money back plus compensation/interest etc. We are in middle age, self employed, so used to knocks, and lucky enough to be in a position mentally to cope with the long and stessful court battle which is still ongoing even after 5 years of battling with agents/lawyers etc. Many people for a number of reasons are not in a position, (nor should they be expected to be) to take our chosen path with this, and to hear them called fools/stupid/idiots etc, is just inhuman and i think foolish in itself, as at some stage everyone has to believe and trust that some legal expert with the required skills/knowledge is working in their interest. The time for coming down hard on agents/lawyers/delopers, even the Spanish justice system is well overdue. Let’s stop blaming innocent victims trying to make an honest purchase. They have been conned and their trust has been betrayed by expert legal crooks at all levels. They didn’t ask for that!

  • #74670
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich 44
    Yep at times we do need to trust the system or how else can we decide to make any decision.
    After reading some of you posts and should you loose your case then there is no help for any of us.
    Great to hear that you you avoided taking crap advice and should prove a good reference to others that are in similar situations.
    In my case I not only had all the advice from solicitors etc I had the nod from a freind who had worked the property market for a number of years.
    Nice stitch up as they were in bed together and conned all of their freinds who trusted them.

    Frank

  • #74672
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “we do need to trust the system”
    But also, you should understand the system if it differs from what you are used to, say in UK.
    If the system and its laws differ and you do not fully understand, we are now aware of what can happen.

  • #74674
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg

    quite, because the system does differ, we need to know that the people we pay to work in our interest will do that, or face very harsh and fast justice. Hopefuly that would quickly clean up the system.

  • #74675
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    But in a Country that has never been know for the system always being above board, one should first familiarise oneself with the system before signing away their money.
    We in UK find it so much easier as we are familiar with the process of buying a property, the laws, the systems, the regulations, etc.
    How many unauthorised homes in UK are you aware of.
    The system is different and often it is ignorance of the law and language by the purchasers in Spain that has been the problem.

  • #74676
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Re. the ‘differing system’ that supposedly exists between UK and Spain when purchasing a property, surely the fundamentals are the same?

    1) A lawyer is appointed to oversee legalities of the sale ensuring the client’s interest is protected.
    2) A contract is drawn up that is supposed to be fair and just for both parties of seller and purchaser. The promise to deliver should be honoured by the seller and if this contracts is broken for any reason there is supposed to be legal recourse.
    3) Laws exist (Ley 57) to ensure protection for monies paid in the form of Bank Guarantees. The law is very specific including being a criminal offense not to provide one).
    4) The local Town Hall has the last say in legalising any property – confirming it has been built to the correct standards and conforms to the issued building licence – in the form of a Licence of First Occupation.

    To me, where it all falls down in Spain has nothing to do with the differing system to UK or not understanding ‘how the system/law works’.
    It is the deep-rooted cancer called corruption that exists in all parts of the above list where purchasers get unwittingly tripped/stitched up.
    Our main line of defence against this unfortunately often turns out to be our lawyers who for varying reasons do not protect us and only perpetuate what is happening.

    No-one coming from England can have the insight as to who is in bed with who, regardless of all the research.

  • #74678
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg – ‘ignorance of the law and language by the purchasers in Spain’ is why we appoint a lawyer and pay him a lot of money….for the same reason we pay experts-in-their-field in any given situation.
    We can’t be experts in everything, especially in a field like the law that takes years to study properly. As you often advise “always seek professional advice” but it sadly doesn’t always bring the right result.

  • #74679
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If you, as an experienced purchaser, believe that systems, laws, regulations, professional advice, etc., are the same in both Countries, no I see why so many Brits are left out of pocket.
    Next you will be saying that the planning procedures, building consents and approvals are the same in both Countries and the sequence of events also.
    Now I really rest my case.
    That has answered a lot.

  • #74680
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mg wrote:

    If you, as an experienced purchaser, believe that systems, laws, regulations, professional advice, etc., are the same in both Countries, no I see why so many Brits are left out of pocket.

    Hmm 😕 I’ve read & re-read the post, and I cannot see where it says Charlie says both systems are the same in the UK and Spain.

    Surely a Doctor, Dentist, Hairdresser, Bricklayer,…. Lawyer, are the same in both countries.

  • #74681
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Re. the ‘differing system’ that supposedly exists between UK and Spain when purchasing a property, surely the fundamentals are the same? “
    Not necessarily.
    Is a Barrister the same in Spain as in UK?

    So assuming “the fundamentals are the same”, why have so many got into such trouble and find they are unprotected.
    Because the systems and laws do differ to what we are familiar with in UK. Such as all the moas abot how long it takes to get to the Courts.

  • #74682
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    No, but many of us know that…. from previous posts on this forum. 🙂

    So assuming “the fundamentals are the same”, why have so many got into such trouble and find they are unprotected.

    I’m sure you have a good memory mg, so you should know the answer to that from hundreds of previous posts from people. 😉 Just in case you’ve forgotten….because we were lied to. Simple as that.

  • #74683
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    So the system and procedure does differ then, as does the personnel.

  • #74684
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A Lawyer is a Lawyer in Spain and the UK and they are there to uphold the law in their respective countries.
    The moans about the length of time it takes to get a Court hearing in CDS is because of the huge backlog of cases caused by the widespread corruption.

  • #74685
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    m.g
    With this friend and solicitor even conning their own family and apart from taking a degree in the Spanish legal system I really feel that your views are rather short sighted ,yet again.
    I choose to blame myself and many many will be doing the same but hindsight is a wonderful thing and not help in the slightest by your comments.
    However “OUR EXPERIENCES” will help others and in turn hopefully systems will have to be introduced to legally protect property purchasers in Spain or Spain will have one hell of a bump financially.

    Frank

  • #74688
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Frank. Although you are not looking for sympathy, I do sympathise with any of the genuine people who have lost money, maybe the life long savings.
    Those who were out to make a quick buck and borrow up to the hilt to do so, then it is tough luck. They took a gamble and it did not pay off.
    What I do detest is the brigade that claims everyman and his dog is wrong, corrupt, dishonest, a cheat, a conman. In fact it is all things and people who are wrong, and never accept any blame themselves, in part or full, when it is them that signed documents, maybe as suggested by their lawyer, parted with their money, etc., and I assume never at gunpoint.
    What about those who did make the final payment even when things were not right. Claim to be protecting their possible losses, so throw more money at the developer.
    Does that make sense to anyone?
    Surely if they knew things were wrong – cut your loss before it is too late.
    To the genuine, my sympathy, to the others, tough and wait for the banks to come knocking.
    There is always two sides.

  • #74695
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    A Lawyer is a Lawyer in Spain and the UK and they are there to uphold the law in their respective countries.

    Thank you Claire – that is what I was (in a roundabout way) trying to say. The ‘fundamentals’ and the system are the same in principle, it’s the numerous corrupt individuals in Spain involved in the process that let the system down in Spain.

    I’m the first to admit when I’m in the wrong or made a foolish mistake, but over my purchase in Spain why should I beat myself with a large stick and call myself an idiot and a fool? Thank goodness my self-esteem is not so misguidedly low.

    I repeat: No-one coming from England can have the insight as to who is in bed with who, regardless of all the research.

  • #74696
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I repeat: No-one coming from England can have the insight as to who is in bed with who, regardless of all the research.”
    So all the more reason to research ask questions, then more research and more questions.
    You don’t know “who is in bed with who”, that is the system there, as with many Countries, but still people want to throw good money their way.
    Let’s wait a whils befor Bulgaria, etc., hits the forums like this.

  • #74697
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Whichever countryone chooses to buy I would have thought (not now obviously) that my Lawyer would represent my interests and act honourably.

  • #74698
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ………no no no, katy/charlie/frank/claire, you have it all wrong, if you get conned cheated or lied to, it’s your fault because the system differs. That’s how is it in Spain. You are just fools and obviously haven’t polished your crystal ball thoroughly.

    excuse me while i go and bang my head against a wall!!!!!!!!!

  • #74699
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “You are just fools and obviously haven’t polished your crystal ball thoroughly.”
    I think you are wrong on that point and it certainly could offend.
    What it means is that you may not have done sufficient research and familiarised yourself with procedure, the system and laws, prior to paying your money out.
    Not good to call someone a fool.

  • #74700
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ……..argggggggggggggggggggg!!!!!!!!

  • #74701
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Calm down. it’s when people get frustrated and annoyed they do not have a clear head and end up signing things, agreeing to things, that perhaps they shouldn’t.
    Easily happens.

  • #74702
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne wrote the wisest words today on another thread:

    “Rather than arguing about it, let’s be happy for those who have successfully bought property in Spain, and support those who haven’t & are dealing with serious problems”.

  • #74703
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Also, make those who line up at the airport to buy the special rose tinted glasses (and there still seem to be many) aware of what can happen when you enter into agreements overseas.
    This is by no way insinuating that anyone in the past was such a type, and is not meant as an insult.
    Learn from others mistakes, errors mis-judgements, experiences, etc.

  • #74704
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    mg

    oh dear, how many more times do people on here today and previous days, have to tell you that they did their homework to the best available at the time and were just conned, lied to, or cheated by low down crooks.

    there’s none so blind………..

  • #74705
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “there’s none so blind………..”
    Yes, that is exactly what I think when I see people going to the sales shows in UK, where you can buy your dream.

    “they did their homework to the best available at the time”
    Some didn’t, as the system hasn’t changed much in the last few years. OK, there are more places like this to share observations, which is the easy way, but still not good enough if you intend parting with 100.000, 150.000, 200.000

    Many UK purchasers of properties on new developments are often surprised that they have to pay the developer for their consent to put up a conservatory, but it is the system and in the contract. Nothing illegal in that and people should not assume everything is straight forward.
    If there are “surprises” in what we accept as a straightforward transaction here, why trust advisors, agents, etc., in a foreign Country where perhaps you do not even speak the language.
    You may have been conned, but there are certainly “fools” out there also.
    Illegal builds still being sold?????

  • #74706
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    charlie

    yes, i’m all for that. I just despair with those who refuse to take on board the wrong doings that myself, you and several others on here today have tried countless times to explain……hence the head banging.

    Those who ‘wont see the wood for the trees’ really wont help forward the case for change with regards justice, when in many cases, they wont even accept who is wrong?

  • #74707
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Goodstitch44,
    I recently referred just such a person, as mg describes, to this forum because the legality of a the development they desperately wanted to buy into was questionable.
    I also directed them to a site on www dealing with problems people had who had already bought there .
    Both their original Independant Spanish lawyer and Drakan advised against…so what did they do… changed lawyers and ignored all logical advice because they preferred what their friends said !!!
    Many may have done intensive reasearch, and through no fault of their own still got terrible stung by UK reps and lawyers as well as their Spanish counterparts , however there are just as many who don’t and people have to wake up to this fact because at the end of the day these people are letting ,you with court cases , down as well.

  • #74708
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine, I am so pleased to see that it is not only people who think that it is all that have been wronged and conned are reported on this site.

    “Both their original Independant Spanish lawyer and Drakan advised against…”
    Yup, can well believe that and when they get home and take of the rose tinted, they will possibly come on here and claim that their lawyer was a crook and they were conned.

    It seems that some only want to see one side of it.

    Your last para., couldn’ agree more.
    Perhaps one day many will believe that often the punter is the fool.

  • #74709
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodst44 said

    [yes, i’m all for that. I just despair with those who refuse to take on board the wrong doings that myself, you and several others on here today have tried countless times to explain……hence the head bangingquote]

    I suspect that many, like me, have taken all your comments on board and empathise with your situation. I am a “lucky” one and have bought with only a few minor problems.

    I believe that it is counter productive (and unhelpful) to assume that just because some people are happy with their situation – that they don’t feel very strongly for those who have suffered at the hands of Spanish “bandits”.

  • #74710
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    m.g
    So you agree that this couple were right to accept independent legal advice and not buy 😕
    They chose legal advice from another indendendent lawyer.which one is right. 😕
    Do they go to another lawyer to see who is right and set about a situation of 4 say YES and 5 say NO senario.
    Lets not go down the recommended lawyer route as most of us did that, (not the developers I may add)
    Its really very simple what we are saying is that the legal system needs to be made accountable then this Russian roultette of so called legal advice will not be allowed to claim more innocent idiots as you portray us.
    I for one fully understand from experience (not me thankfully) that the ole green backs greed starts for a few and no law anywhere can protect them. 😕
    As you do not appear to be in any of these catagories and no recent experience perhaps your advice is rather pointless if you dont mind me saying.
    I know nothing about golf so I try not to embarrass myself pretending I do if you get the meaning. 😉

    Frank 8)

  • #74711
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I found that when we went to the exhibition, they wanted you there next week or the week after. We were unable to go that quickly and it was almost 7 weeks before our trip which allowed plenty of research (on this and other sites) and reading into how the companies work. When we went, we were under no illusions that the idea of the trip was for them to sell us a property (which they did). Where I think we were lucky is that we stated categorically we would not buy off plan and bought a new key ready property on a well established development. Talking to the new neighbours (Brits, Spanish and French) gave us the confidence that buying at this particular urbanisation was a good idea.

    Thanks for all the input everyone. Unfortunately, it is through your suffering that I have been able to make an informed decision.

    Mark

  • #74712
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hopefully Mark, you are just one of many who can now make an informed decision when buying in Spain or anywhere else for that matter, due in part to many of us airing our experiences on the SPI forum….the good 😯 the bad and the downright ugly!

  • #74713
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I believe that it is counter productive (and unhelpful) to assume that just because some people are happy with their situation – that they don’t feel very strongly for those who have suffered at the hands of Spanish “bandits”.

    Couldn’t agree more OliverB, sadly, as I’ve said before, it would appear that the wrong end of the stick is taken most times.

    I’m on here because I’m interested, not because i have a problem to solve, I’m not trying to sell anything, I don’t work for anyone that could remotely benefit from me being here, I don’t have any issues with anyone in Spain and I’m not suing anyone. I’m also not trying to expose the “corruption” in Spain, I have no intention of selling our apartment in the next ten years or so.

    So I have no axe to grind at all, I’m interest to help, if i have an answer I’ll give it, but it will be from a positive perspective and if i see someone doing something foolish then i will tell them. By the way it will only be my opinion and they can take it or leave it, after all advice is just that advice we are all grown up here and you make your own decisions.

    i feel it won’t be the end of this thread but you never know 🙂

    Regards

    Paul

  • #74715
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “So you agree that this couple were right to accept independent legal advice and not buy”
    Yup, if it was my money and someone advised, I would walk. Just a hint of doubt and I would be away.

    “They chose legal advice from another indendendent lawyer.which one is right”
    Just wouldn’t care who was right, even a 50/50 senario. I worked for my money so I am not taking the gamble, especially if I wasn’t familiar with the laws, system and language.

    “no recent experience”
    No, not for 12 months and certainly not off-plan.

    “I know nothing about golf so I try not to embarrass myself”
    Best not to.
    Must remember that an acquisition 12 months ago doesn’t allow you to comment?

  • #74716
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just another point…what about all the spanish who have found themselves in a mess? Remember all those demos outside AIFOS offices in málaga? They were all spanish people, also many spanish living in limbo in Banana Beach…I could go on but cooking dinner.

  • #74717
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    m.g
    Normal waffle when you run out of answers.

    Frank 8)

  • #74718
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Frank, just the response I have come to accept from many, towards anyone who dares suggest that it is not ALWAYS the developer, lawyer, etc., who is to blame.
    If it is not too much trouble, take a look at the comment by Melosine, or is that not acceptable also?
    Must not have people claiming that punters are sometimes fools.

  • #74719
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    m.g
    Think you know my views, totally agree that some will blame anyone bar themselves.
    These are usually the ones that went in feet first,head second and their arse last.
    You will never ever stop this type as well we know even if you bash them over the head with advice.
    We can never help these but we can hopefully just help a few genuine ones along the way.
    Yep read Melosines post and agree,its a fine line no doupt about that. 😕
    With regards to the two solicitors senario ,if the deal was good and I wanted that property I would personally check it out someway or another that the o.k to buy option is the correct advice and go for it.(may miss a great opportunity due to bad advice)
    I may make a calculated decision but many other unfortunate ones clearly were not in that position and sought the advice of the independent lawyers which you say they should and were basically conned.end of?
    Dont think we will ever agree but as they say everyone should be entitled to their opinion and we both have ours.

    Stay Cool

    Frank 8)

  • #75175
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Our original hearing date was set for the 18th June (La Reserva) a second hearing would then be scheduled for Nov 2007 (we would have to appear in court).
    A number of days later I contacted my solicitor to ask how the hearing went only to be told the hearing date had been pushed back to October 2008?
    The reason “due to sheer volume of clients?”
    Frustrating to say the least when we are into our 5th year of dealing with this fiasco!!
    When is it ever going to end?????
    🙁 🙁

  • #75177
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Modern day Spanish Inquisition. I say bring back Isabel Catholica.

  • #75180
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    maria

    no change then!!!!!!

    what a bloody mess, justice in Spain, well one day……perphaps???????????

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