Principled gesture

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This topic contains 19 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 3 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #57217
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    If the Spanish people all in large numbers take a similar stand as this man they can change their system for the better whilst at the same time make a protest against the ‘banksters’ and corrupt political and financial system. Well done to him.

    It was Marx who wrote “¡El pueblo unido, jamás será vencido!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/05/pamplona-spain-banks-homes

  • #114452
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan: The English are to submissive & selfish to act in this manner. One can see from the way parking is enforced, taxes are imposed, intrusion of personal freedom, hike in train fairs, climate taxes introduced/raised, whilst China, India, Brazil can negate all that in problebly one day of polution.

  • #114455
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Sorry Shak you lost me there. ❓

  • #114456
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Similar action has been taken all over Spain with courts refusing to issue repossession orders, and local mayors ordering their police not to assist in evictions. Spain has only been a democracy for 37 years, and although split on political lines much the same as the rest of Europe, people tend to get together in times of trouble and help each other.

    Heaven help any rich foreign investor who buys those repossessions, they will never be able to live in them, their Spanish neighbours won’t let them.

    The solution is staring the Spanish government in the face – over a million empty homes that will soon belong to them. Social housing on a grand scale will solve the problem.

  • #114457
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    let’s not forget that it took two to tango; nearly everyone lied about their income producing false payslips (with help from the bank broker/agent) not only borrowing 100% but a bit more for flat screen TV’s, shiny new Sat Ibiza, holidays in Dom republic (yuk) etc, etc …… they all wanted to take part in this fab slice of capitalism and it blew up in their face. Of course the banks and government are more to blame as really most people require more protection 😥 😥 😥 ; let’s try a guided democracy like China’s??? 😉 😉 😉

  • #114459
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan, what I meant was that the English will not act this manner i.e. the locksmith will not join in solidarity nor the local police, mayor etc. They have been brain washed to submission and no one will part take in civil disobedience.

    We should give credit to the ladies of the night. As I recall reading on eye on Spain that they had withdrawn thier services to the Bankers. I think they were first ones to start this.

  • #114462
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Yes I agree solidarity in Spain and France among ordinary people within a community spirit is very strong. It needs organising into a strategic force to make a real difference.

    The British in comparison tend to be much more insular and not inclined to community action. One of the reasons for that may be that institutions are much more accountable to the public. It’s possible to take a grievance to a government body who will effectively independently investigate it for you. For example the banking or insurance ombudsman.

  • #114463
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    Anonymous
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    When British expats started Neighbourhood Watch schemes to protect themselves against rising crime, Spanish people were mystified by the concept. They couldn’t understand that such an organisation was needed in a country where it was natural to help your neighbours.

    They later joined in wholeheartedly, as well as the other expat charities now in existence in a time of need. I’ve noticed little animosity between expats and their Spanish neighbours, especially considering the host country’s mountains of problems. They know who to blame, and generally, it isn’t us.

  • #114464
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s a tricky subject. I believe that if someone presents their case to hand the keys back, and hands their property back in liveable condition (not with the kitchen/bathroom ripped out, walls with graffiti and generally in a really bad state) then they should be able to go debt free BUT they can’t then stay living in the place. The bank should be allowed to sell the property or rent it out. If the ex owners want to rent it out then great, but if they then default for months then they should be evicted. If you hand your keys back they shouldn’t make the people bankrupt for life but change it to be similar to other european countries, isn’t the UK 5 years? Ireland is 12 years I think?

    Therefore you can have people who are in dire straits thrown a lifeline. It’s so sad to see stories of people jumping off balconies etc. If you hand your keys back you also shouldn’t be allowed to just go out and buy a cheaper place, the bankruptcy time should then enable people to live in rental accommodation, keep their heads down, save up and in ten years they can start again with a mortgage if they wish so. It’s criminal to make people bankrupt for life. People make mistakes, the bankers are getting bailed out and the public get a life sentence. A bit of common sense is what is needed.

    The trouble is there is a certain ‘type’ who would still get around this, the ‘i’m a person too and we deserve a house’….. (cue flamenco music……). Yes, but you also need to pay for it…. too many got too much credit and haven’t even tried to pay their way. They haven’t even paid in 10 euros in years for their mortgage so they should be evicted and forced to look for rental accommodation. Letting them stay in their own ‘home’ but only if they pay their rent on time.

    Everyone should have rights, not just the rich and the bottom rung who shout the loudest. There are those in the middle who are busting a gut to pay whatever they can to keep the bank happy and they still hound for more money… they are the only ones who have to pay it seems? That is the major problem with the evictions, certain types who then block the sales of repo properties so it continues with this vicious circle with everyone not knowing what to do? Who in their right mind would buy a place which has squatters left right and centre… even if it was priced at 1000 euros I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole…… The Government has to make some harsh decisions I think…starting with the banks.

  • #114465
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    My issue with the banks in Spain is simple. They recklessly allowed people to borrow too much money, therefore morally they have a share in the blame when things went wrong.

    At the very least debt should be written off if the property is repossessed allowing a fresh start or make some accommodation to allow the debtor to rent the place at a price they can afford.

  • #114467
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan. You may recall the song ” Its a self preservation society “” that is what it is. The Ombudsman etc do have a function. There remit is very narrow and are not held in high esteem by the people.

    The English prefer to moan & than to sulk they go for a pint. This lack of direct action means that the bodies get away with impunity. The only time I saw a serious disorder was the Poll tax riots. A grossly in equatable tax & even the lady not known for turning had to turn.

    I recall a few summers ago the truckers were protesting against the fuel cost. The protest was in July/August on a Sunday. The modus of the protest was to bring their family to Hyde park for a day of picnic. Yeppppppp revolution/changes are brought by the mighty a cucumber sandwitches in the park. ( Pretamanger take note ) It is not surprising that they are taken for a ride consistantly by all parties.

  • #114468
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I can’t agree Britain is a much fairer, accountable society than Spain. The lack of group protest may actually reflect that. 🙂

  • #114469
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    By chance, I caught part of a BBC2 programme earlier which compared our benefit system in the UK for users and abusers, or something similar.

    A deserving young single mum got all sorts of weird benefits to allow her to set herself up in her own home and then return to work.

    The abuser, I was going to state her nationality but it would only open another discussion, used the system’s generosity to defraud the country out of millions.

    Spain lacks the opportunities for users and abusers alike, if you’re in real need there is little to help you apart from family, friends and charities. In the UK an entire system exists purely to help people, the welfare state.

    Which is where the EU comes into its own once again, at least in theory. 27 wise heads are better than just one or two, and if they all got together properly the injustices (the ease in which it is cheated) and the injustices at the other end (where there isn’t a safety net) could be addressed rationally.

    Spain’s debtor laws are medieval for ordinary people, yet allow the banks and property developers to file for administration at the drop of a hat, without any detrimental effect on the directors, the real crooks.

  • #114470
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @ Logan, I think you are trying to say the Britian is a fairer society. If yes the question comes how do you judge this ??? The fairness if one is looking in terms of money than it is erroding fast. One has to be down & out or close to penny less.

    As it happens that most of the non indigenous will find themselves in this position until they find their feet.

    “They recklessly allowed people to borrow too much money, therefore morally they have a share in the blame when things went wrong “

    Blame yes, yes and as you sugguested should be given a fresh start. When it comes to Morallity. Money & morality are not the perfect bed fellow. The sooner we accept this realistic & cycnical reality we can position/adjust our views as to how we should view the society.

  • #114471
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @itsme wrote:

    It’s a tricky subject. I believe that if someone presents their case to hand the keys back, and hands their property back in liveable condition (not with the kitchen/bathroom ripped out, walls with graffiti and generally in a really bad state) then they should be able to go debt free BUT they can’t then stay living in the place. The bank should be allowed to sell the property or rent it out. If the ex owners want to rent it out then great, but if they then default for months then they should be evicted. If you hand your keys back they shouldn’t make the people bankrupt for life but change it to be similar to other european countries, isn’t the UK 5 years? Ireland is 12 years I think?

    Therefore you can have people who are in dire straits thrown a lifeline. It’s so sad to see stories of people jumping off balconies etc. If you hand your keys back you also shouldn’t be allowed to just go out and buy a cheaper place, the bankruptcy time should then enable people to live in rental accommodation, keep their heads down, save up and in ten years they can start again with a mortgage if they wish so. It’s criminal to make people bankrupt for life. People make mistakes, the bankers are getting bailed out and the public get a life sentence. A bit of common sense is what is needed.

    The trouble is there is a certain ‘type’ who would still get around this, the ‘i’m a person too and we deserve a house’….. (cue flamenco music……). Yes, but you also need to pay for it…. too many got too much credit and haven’t even tried to pay their way. They haven’t even paid in 10 euros in years for their mortgage so they should be evicted and forced to look for rental accommodation. Letting them stay in their own ‘home’ but only if they pay their rent on time.

    Everyone should have rights, not just the rich and the bottom rung who shout the loudest. There are those in the middle who are busting a gut to pay whatever they can to keep the bank happy and they still hound for more money… they are the only ones who have to pay it seems? That is the major problem with the evictions, certain types who then block the sales of repo properties so it continues with this vicious circle with everyone not knowing what to do? Who in their right mind would buy a place which has squatters left right and centre… even if it was priced at 1000 euros I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole…… The Government has to make some harsh decisions I think…starting with the banks.

    I can only tell you that in many countries “Sweden for example” there is this sort of “help” to go bankrupt but it’s still up to the creditors to say yes or no. Often what is the case is that only the real dousche bags that creditors say yes to because they know they will never be able to get their hands on a penny of their money if they don’t approve it.

    Normal people that wants to do the right thing are never allowed this because the creditors knows they will do their best to repay their debt no matter how long it takes. I have met people that still owe the creditors 200-400k euros and nothing to show for it that they have been paying of since our last crisis during the 90s. If I was in their position back then I would have just refused and left the country.

    IMO a creditor should only be able to go after the underlying “resource” of the loan. In these cases the houses and then nothing else.

  • #114475
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Shakeel.
    I am not sure what your point is here. It’s a pointless exercise to compare Britain with Spain. They are very different nations with very different histories, traditions and rule of law.

    That’s one of the mistakes many people who move to Spain make. They subconsciously expect Britain in the sun with all that misguided belief implies. When things go wrong they generally head back to Britain very quickly. Ask yourself why? I’m sure you know the answer. 🙂

  • #114476
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    ‘logan we seem to have turned this into a private thread. In summary my point is that the British will not behave in a manner of taking direct action or civil dis obedience as people accrss the channel will do.

    I do beleive that this is mostly due to class system & the system that demanded that one should know ones position is in the society, remain there & do not ask & do not aspire. Hence my remark view of sub servience. A lot of this can be observed by the the ritual extended to the Queen, the new year honour’s list, addressing the judge as my Lord at Courts, the House of Lords etc,etc.

    In so far Britian in the sun a lot of this is down to the Coloniial past where the Brits set up the workings etc based on the British system. So these when they go to the Caribiean, South Africa, Nigeria, India, etc they would be at home to a very large extent.

    As Spain, France, Italy, Portugal were not colonised by the Brits the changes bring’s a culture shock. I do agree that many people did not look deeper into various aspects of living out of their comfort zone, wheter this zone was financial, cultural, language,family, neighbours etc.

  • #114479
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    shakeel don’t you remember the student demonstrations awhile back in London? Quite a lot of angry violent people and police.

  • #114482
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, I do remember & the barbaric behaviour of the Police. I also remember the riots in August 11. These are isolated casess & no matter how justified or the grounds the autohrities never agree to it. They call it leadership.

    I also remember when a petrol protestor was punched by John Presscot, who was the number two during Tony Blairs. John Prescott was not charged for comman assult by the Police. The protestor did not bring a private proceedings.

  • #114483
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I haven’t found Spanish people all that different to British people. Historically, we conquered half the world, they conquered the other half. 700 million people speak English, and 700 million people speak Spanish.

    We have Anglo Saxon laws, they have Latin ones, both converging within the EU.

    I couldn’t put a cigarette paper between Rajoy, Cameron and Merkel. Or Hollande and Milliband.

    The biggest difference is a climatic one.

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