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This topic contains 42 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 8 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #54010
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/05/30/ccambrose130.xml

    It may not have really started yet. In a years time we may live in a very different world

  • #83342
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    the spanish economy can point the finger firmly at the unregulated spanish estate agent scum for a major contribution to the spanish economy problems. These agents have condemned a generation of brits to ending their days in Spain – there is no easy way to sell up now and get back to the UK if you had to.
    Spanish properties are just about impossible to sell without major discounts and that situation will only get worse thanks to the rank greed and stupidity of developers and agents alike.

    How can, I repeat how can the spanish property industry be so screwed up that it can build 2 million vacant properties that can’t be sold.

    The whole thing is unbelievable and one day the school kids will look back on this whole shambles as a case study in ‘how not to run an industry’.

  • #83343
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “These agents have condemned a generation of brits to ending their days in Spain – there is no easy way to sell up now and get back to the UK if you had to.”

    Condemned? Did they hold guns to their heads?

    I guess/hope we are talking about grownups which were not drunk when they signed the contracts…

    What about the generation os brits who got good money by flipping properties allover the world?

  • #83344
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    My predicton is that those 2 million properties will be quickly snatched up when the price is right.

  • #83346
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hang on a second, “unregulated Spanish estate agent scum”

    So it was the humble estate agent that allowed all those developers to develop illegally?

    So it was the “estate agent scum” that was happy to collect 7% IVA on illegal properties?

    So it was the “estate agent scum” that built hundreds of thousands of properties that are today laying empty?

    So it was the “estate agent scum” that has so badly managed the economy in the UK, that there has been the first run on a UK bank in a hundred years and a 14% or so devaluation of sterling?

    Come on, get real!

    Facts of real estate life:

    The agent acts for the seller – he gets paid by the seller to find a buyer. The buyer hires a lawyer to ensure that what he is buying from the seller is as he expects

  • #83362
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @APotter wrote:

    Hang on a second, “unregulated Spanish estate agent scum”

    So it was the humble estate agent that allowed all those developers to develop illegally?

    So it was the “estate agent scum” that was happy to collect 7% IVA on illegal properties?

    So it was the “estate agent scum” that built hundreds of thousands of properties that are today laying empty?

    So it was the “estate agent scum” that has so badly managed the economy in the UK, that there has been the first run on a UK bank in a hundred years and a 14% or so devaluation of sterling?

    Come on, get real!

    Facts of real estate life:

    The agent acts for the seller – he gets paid by the seller to find a buyer. The buyer hires a lawyer to ensure that what he is buying from the seller is as he expects

    Hey potter, I haven’t even started on the developers yet. They are even worse than the agents that duped thousands into buying properties that were either illegal or massively overpriced.

  • #83366
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @kingy wrote:

    the spanish economy can point the finger firmly at the unregulated spanish estate agent scum for a major contribution to the spanish economy problems.

    I think you over estimate the ranking of Estate Agents in the food chain

  • #83369
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “So it was the humble estate agent that allowed all those developers to develop illegally”?
    No, they just supported them by offering their illegal properties for sale.
    (“Humble”?? 😆 ….cough, cough……)

    “So it was the “estate agent scum” that was happy to collect 7% IVA on illegal properties”?
    No, they were just happy to collect their commissions by pushing/selling these illegal builds, often knowing full well they were illegal.

    “So it was the “estate agent scum” that built hundreds of thousands of properties that are today laying empty”?
    No, but they certainly tried selling loads of them (and often succeeded) by coming up with the buy three, flip two and end up with one free. This only added to the inflated/false picture of actual demand which was one of the factors that ‘encouraged’ many developers to build even more.

    “So it was the “estate agent scum” that has so badly managed the economy in the UK, that there has been the first run on a UK bank in a hundred years and a 14% or so devaluation of sterling”?
    😯
    Slightly off topic on that one aren’t we, thought we were talking about REA’s in Spain 😆 . A bit of the ol’ EA blurb and waffle me thinks, some EA’s will say anything and all that……we have to expect it somewhere along the way I suppose……

    “Come on, get real”!
    Trying to keep it that way.

    Facts of real estate life:

    For many EA’s, if it means money in the pocket regardless of known lack of legality, regardless whether it means telling a few ‘porkies’ along the way (eg. “They’re such a good deal, me and my uncle have bought three”), just get that sale signed up.

    Facts, APotter, because many of us on this forum have ‘been there’ and got the proverbial t-shirt, though luckily not the buy 3, sell two ‘ bargain’. Just wanted a home in Spain.
    Facts, APotter, because without the complicity of certain EA’s, along with the certain rogue lawyers, the ‘bum’ developers wouldn’t have got away with selling their illegal builds.

    Facts, yes, I like them. And keeping it ‘real’.

    Maybe you’re just having a bit of a miserable time at the moment. Are the PW people still “pestering” you to get your clients on their free trips from Manchester?

  • #83371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @maximus wrote:

    My predicton is that those 2 million properties will be quickly snatched up when the price is right.

    My prediction is that many will become derelect especially within the less attractive gated communities away from facilities.

    I can almost see the boarded up windows, lizards pool and tumbleweeds drifting over that unfinished golf course.

  • #83380
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @kingy wrote:

    the spanish economy can point the finger firmly at the unregulated spanish estate agent scum for a major contribution to the spanish economy problems.

    Having lived there during the feeding frenzy I put the blame on the buyers. Sure there were unscrupulous estate agents but what do you expect when the pickings were so easy? It really did get ridiculous.

    @kingy wrote:

    These agents have condemned a generation of brits to ending their days in Spain – there is no easy way to sell up now and get back to the UK if you had to.

    I think that a significant number will have to find a way, they will have no choice. There will be those who have to return because they can no longer find work, those that are homesick, those who are unwell and those that miss Britain or the security that understanding the culture brings. I think in time as some developments become ghettos that Spain will be such hell that living in a bedsit in Slough will appeal more.

    @kingy wrote:

    Spanish properties are just about impossible to sell without major discounts and that situation will only get worse thanks to the rank greed and stupidity of developers and agents alike.

    I think they just rode the tail of gross stupidity. There are some people who believe that if someone is going to speculate on property then why shouldn’t they get the commission rather than another person, regardless of whether you think those actions wise.

    @kingy wrote:

    How can, I repeat how can the spanish property industry be so screwed up that it can build 2 million vacant properties that can’t be sold.

    The whole thing is unbelievable and one day the school kids will look back on this whole shambles as a case study in ‘how not to run an industry’.

    We have lived through an incredible era and there’s still more to come, I believe.

  • #83382
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    I think it is a facile and misleading argument to blame either estate agents or buyers for the Spanish economic and property problems. Both groups were operating in a market that was largely shaped by others. Indeed if any lessons are going to be learned by the Spanish authorities for the future then they will have to look beyond these two groups.

    As far as I can see, unlike in the UK, there was little or no regulation or even interest shown by government bodies on the estate agency sector in Spain. It seemed that anyone could and did become estate agents overnight and sold property in Spain. In such an unregulated market, those acting as estate agents did what all budding entrepreneurs do in unregulated markets, they acted in what they thought were their best interests.

    On the other hand buyers with dreams of living in the sun, owning a holiday home or just seeking an investment did what buyers all over the world were doing in an era of cheap credit. They bought property. That in itself did not create a problem for the Spanish economy. In fact, quite the opposite. Of course the problem for buyers, which many didn’t appreciate, was that the property market was quite different to the UK, in that it was also very loosely regulated.

    I believe the real problem for Spain was that there was too little regulation within the property market and the Government was too slow to understand that the divergence of scarce national resources into a building programme bigger than the UK, France and Germany could only lead to tears. What we have now is a huge drop in aggregate demand, which given all the bad publicity (most certainly deserved) will take years to shake off and an aggregate supply which will take years to reduce.

    I feel that this problem is now so huge that it can only be resolved in the short and medium term by government intervention.

  • #83383
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I guess we all need to take some blame for this. – Government, Developers, Estate Agents and to some extent the Buyers. The whole sorry business, like the stock market, has been driven by greed and fear. We’ve had the greed phase with over building, illegal licences, dodgy agents and investment flipping. Now we have entered the fear phase with builders going bust, agents failing and buyers losing deposits, cannot sell or in negative equity. The level of profit is mirrored by the level of risk. And risks fail.

    Like all markets, there are losers that pull at the ‘heart strings’ like the Priors and all those other retirees who are stuck with worthless properties and falling exchange rates.

  • #83385
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I guess we all need to take some blame for this. – Government, Developers, Estate Agents and to some extent the Buyers. “

    It is not “we all” but “they all”. Many people used their heads before opening their wallets and did not fall into the trap of buying overpriced
    junk.

  • #83386
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I would not include myself (and many others) in the blame game. We have had a property in Spain since the 80’s. Just for sheer pleasure (or is lifestyle choice the new buzz word 🙄 )

  • #83387
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good post, Maximus.
    But the only buyers I accept should have blame laid at their doors are the investment flippers. Often buying in blocks with no interest whatsoever in Spain as a country or a ‘lifestyle’, they created an artificial demand that just wasn’t there. The only thing that is there now are all the empty overbuilds, sitting as a reminder of what greed and foolishness can do.

  • #83429
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie – So you agree in principle that “Estate Agent Scum” are not totally to blame?

    I have never made any personal remark regarding other forum members. I would appreciate if you could do the same.

    “Maybe you’re just having a bit of a miserable time at the moment. Are the PW people still “pestering” you to get your clients on their free trips from Manchester?”

    As the administrator knows my particular views on PW, I am sure he will, when he is better enlighten you. Bearing in mind other topics regarding libel ect, you wouldn’t want to put him in a difficult position. After all, it is up to you to prove your comment, if not, he gets the blame.

    The point I was trying to make was that agents were part of it, but no where near as influential as you seem to think. The Spanish Government collected billions of euros of IVA from illegal builds.

    The developers were also the Mayors (or relatives of Mayors) in many of the town halls. So what planning laws there are were ignored.

    The lawyers – the last line of protection for the buyer, many colluded with the developers to ensure the contract got signed and the money paid. How many times on this forum have we read that the buyer actually did use a lawyer, but it turned out that the lawyer failed to pick up on the most basic of planning irregularities?

    And what about the buyers, those who wanted to make a quick buck? I saw a programme about the stock market crash of 1929 recently. Were those who borrowed easy money to buy shares in the twenties to blame for the crash? Not totally, but the system in which made it easier for them to buy was made up of more than just brokers.

    Old Danish proverb – “Blame, is a lazy man’s wages.”

    AP

  • #83430
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @APotter wrote:

    Charlie – So you agree in principle that “Estate Agent Scum” are not totally to blame?

    I have never made any personal remark regarding other forum members. I would appreciate if you could do the same.

    Not quite sure what AP means here. It was he that introduced the phrase “Estate Agent Scum” in quotation marks to this forum. As Charlie has done no more than answer the posting, not sure where the idea of a personal remark comes from.

    @APotter wrote:

    “Maybe you’re just having a bit of a miserable time at the moment. Are the PW people still “pestering” you to get your clients on their free trips from Manchester?”

    As the administrator knows my particular views on PW, I am sure he will, when he is better enlighten you. Bearing in mind other topics regarding libel ect, you wouldn’t want to put him in a difficult position. After all, it is up to you to prove your comment, if not, he gets the blame.

    Again, I am getting rather confused. Charlie has made a suggestion that maybe someone is having a “miserable time” – well that is not libelous as it is not a statement but a suggestion and the UK weather would be enough to give anyone a miserable time! Can’t see their is any need to prove anything. As far as the comment regarding PW people is concerned, that is a question where a reply is awaited. Again, nothing libelous there.

  • #83437
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Thereby hangs the problem…. forum folk reply before checking to see WHO actually posted what.
    Must admit it gets very confusing when posts are constantly highlighted.

    I don’t know APotter from Adam but if anyone cares to check it was KINGY who actually wrote ESTATE AGENT SCUM.

  • #83448
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    .
    @On Apr 17th APotter wrote:

    I have been pestered all last week and the beginning of this week, by several PW people to get my clients on their free trip from Manchester for this weekend.

    One PW person couldn’t understand why I don’t have people wanting their product, and basically accused me of not being professional by failing to work in PW’s best interest! 🙄

    Just thought all this pressure and accusations of “not being professional” might be making you feel a bit miserable as not only are times generally slow in the market but remembered your post above. Nothing was meant by it, was not trying to make any ‘personal remarks’, I was just referring to a previous post of yours.

    “Bearing in mind other topics regarding libel ect, you wouldn’t want to put him in a difficult position. After all, it is up to you to prove your comment, if not, he gets the blame”.
    I would never want to put Mark in a difficult position, this is why I try to be very careful in all that I post, including referring to previous posts by other members when making a comment such as I did. It seems sometimes people forget what they write.

    link to post: http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=25910&highlight=#25910

    …………………………………………………………………………………………..

    “Charlie – So you agree in principle that “Estate Agent Scum” are not totally to blame”?
    Absolutely, and I have never stated as such either. However I do think the rogue agents share the blame for the reasons I gave in my post.

    “The point I was trying to make was that agents were part of it, but no where near as influential as you seem to think”.
    I may have not been clear in my post then. I wasn’t trying to intimate they were particularly ‘influential’, more a case of an essential link in the chain. If every agent had refused to touch/market the illegal builds, the developers wouldn’t have had the sales. Likewise with the (often in-house) lawyers.

    And of course, shall repeat that I – like goodstich and for sure all of us here – appreciate that not all REA’s in Spain are of the rogue kind. It’s just that there are a lot of them and we were unfortunate enough to have been amongst the many who got tangled up with them.

    P.S. It’s a good job I’m not working in your office – after comments like that from PW, I would have told them to sod off.

  • #83460
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    charlie

    just a word on flipping. When we went on our inspection tour, the biggest thing the agents were pushing was flipping. So much so, they even bought along a well known snooker pro (now regular snooker TV commentator) to help. At the time he, along with the agent, loosly spoke about buying several properties, with the ‘ how can you go wrong’ attitude. The lady who worked as secretary for the agent and her husband also signed up for two properties on the trip.

    With these two examples, those who wouldn’t sign up were treated as mugs and over cautious. Hard to believe now, but with rocketing prices and celebs’ buying, it really looked to good to miss.

  • #83462
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I know the push for flipping went on, our agent also tried with us but that wasn’t our interest in buying in Spain. We purely wanted one home and stuck to that.

    I get a little ‘disconcerted’ (polite-speak for fed up) when nearly every post that talks about buyers being foolish always ends up by mentioning “the buyers who wanted to make a quick buck” and investment flipping. That scenario is just not relevant to the massive majority on this forum who just want their monies returned on a single purchase on an illegal build, or one that is not as per contract. Not too much to ask.

    But there again even an ‘investor’ has a right to expect a legal build for his money. Yet the developers seem to use this argument a lot in court as a reason why not to return monies…..”they’re only investors”. The fact there is no legal building licence or they haven’t built to original spec. as per contract seems to be irrelevant. Even to the judges in many cases.

  • #83463
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    goodstich44 wrote:
    loosly spoke about buying several properties, with the ‘ how can you go wrong’ attitude. The lady who worked as secretary for the agent and her husband also signed up for two properties on the trip.
    With these two examples, those who wouldn’t sign up were treated as mugs and over cautious. Hard to believe now, but with rocketing prices and celebs’ buying, it really looked to good to miss.

    The best time to buy i.e. the “how can you go wrong” time to buy will be when everybody will tell that it is bad to buy. That is the bottom.

  • #83465
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    charlie

    we never intended to flip either, but the pressure to buy for that reason was huge from the agent. That in itself was enough to put me of going along with it. A close relative of the agent bought about 3 properties……or so we were told?. Probably more lies? We did put a deposit on one apartment, and i was made to feel like i was being very conservative.

    ralita

    probably, the bottom though eh?, could be sometime yet i think, and without big regulation change, it’s hard to see confidence returning much, even with economic turnaround.

  • #83471
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie – I am happy to bury the hatchet, life is too short. And thank you for your comments; perhaps I am a little over sensitive when it comes to PW.

    One comment on flipping: I was not aware, as I was not in the UK at the time, but some of my colleagues tell me that “flipping” went on all the time in Leeds and Manchester city centre apartments a few years ago. So, I don’t believe it was solely are Spanish thing.

    AP

  • #83477
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    To be honest I do not know where to start! Just want to tell you a story about ordinary working class people who simply wanted to top up a defunct pension pot to help pay off a mortgage on retirement.
    Not investors by profession, but aware of the possible profit by selling offf plan. Some property advisors in very reputable newspapers were saying “get in now” and especially Marbella how could you lose? We went out with our brains intact not left in the airport and were shown 3 properties. We chose the one with the “Marbella postcode” this was our guarantee supposedly.

    We remortgaged to supply our deposit( I know wrong move! but lots of other people did the same thing). Completion was for 2005. As late as Sept/Oct 2004 we were being told by EA’s financial expert how lucky we were, prices where we had bought would probably reach 260,000 euros by completion in July 2005 in fact they could see 300,000 euros the way things were going, enough to pay of the Spanish property and even the English mortgage. You can imagine how smug we felt how lucky was that more than we had expected!

    Unfortunately, on a return visit in March 2005 to meet up with EAs to consider putting the apartment on the market before completion or as I have found out since- flipping.We met up with a manager from the nameless company and were informed that there was no way we would sell for 260,000, in fact properties were going for 210,000 to get rid of them and in a nut shell the s…. had hit the fan. We were then told they would charge 26% commission to sell on our behalf.When my husband telephoned their financial guy he denied everything he had said at the meeting in 2004.

    After sleepless nights due to worry we had to make a quick decision and decided to go ahead with the sale and sit tight for a couple of years and then sell. No problem there then. Wrong.

    Guess what? on our first holiday out in the summer of 2006 we were met with the news that our apartment was illegal and without a habitation licence. We spent 3 days with EAs and our Lawyer.

    We were then informed last year that our complex has been legalised on the new PGOU and our developer has offered land as compensation.

    Huge sigh of relief or maybe not.

    In the mean time no one is buying and especially without LFO and the euro situation is pathetic.

    We do not know how much longer the PGOU is being poured over before we get that piece of paper and we retire in 5 years time with two mortgages.

    I am glad the Marbella Mayoress has stated that she is against ordinary buyers having to pay for their licences because there is no way we would or could if it came to it.

    We just find it apalling that after the way people in our position have been treat we don’t seem to be able to get information as to what stage they are at in getting the PGOU through, in this country there would be a department somewhere to ring, so if anyone can speak Spanish and has an insight as to who to ask please do so.

    It also rankles with me when I see buyers being accused of being greedy,
    professional investors yes, but not ordinary people like us.
    I also find it distastesful and upsetting to see comments from people on this forum who are “licking their lips” waiting for the bargain which will come at someone elses misery and distress.

    Our ex Lawyer told us in 2006 on a visit (regarding the illegality) that once the Investors who were panicking and asking silly low prices for their new builds left the market the prices would stabilise. Looks like they still have not finished picking the bones yet.

    On a last note I agree with some of the posts, we were let down by Estate Agents/Developers and more apallingly by Lawyers who were supposed to representing our interests.
    We have also been let down by MEP’s who keep trotting out the same weak garbage that they can not interfere, what about Human Rights?
    We have a British Ambassador who has reassured the Marbella Mayoress that Marbella’s reputation has not been damaged by all of this.
    Is this women for real where has she been for approx. three years?

    Please exuse anything you find incorrect/silly etc believe me from where we are sitting things could not get any worse or maybe some of you out there know something else!!!!!
    In the meantime anyone interested in 2 bed 2 bath apt. furnished Lovely sea views etc etc etc that all exclusive Marbella post code, habitation licence pending some day, somewhere.Cost 199,000 euros 2002 (yes we know now don’t we probably overpriced by 30%) any sensible offer-well you have to laugh!!!!!!!!!
    Thank you for reading.

  • #83481
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    2 comments:

    1) “We remortgaged to supply our deposit( I know wrong move! but lots of other people did the same thing). “

    Banks should not offer so easily re-mortgage deals. Not for risky investments…

    2) “I also find it distastesful and upsetting to see comments from people on this forum who are “licking their lips” waiting for the bargain which will come at someone elses misery and distress.”

    Nobody is licking lips, many are just waiting for the prices to come to their senses.
    Others have a finite amount of money (without remortgaing their falling UK assets) and cannot pay more.

  • #83482
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    holly

    i’m so sorry to read of your plight. Like many of us, you sound like another decent person, swindled by crooks able to operate in a very poorly regulated system. To make matters worse, you have to fight tooth and nail to get back the money that should have been handed back to you long ago.

    holly wrote

    ”It also rankles with me when I see buyers being accused of being greedy,
    professional investors yes, but not ordinary people like us.

    ………again, quite right, this really annoys me as well. We do our homework, we follow the rules, and get well and truly stuffed. Anyone calling you greedy is trying to pass the buck away from crooks to those people who just want a home in the sun, or something solid to sell for retirement purposes.

    I assume you have a good lawyer, and i really wish you all the best. As for those on here who virtually blame the victims for being ‘stupid’ or ‘greedy’ please try and ignore them, they are nasty pieces of work, selfish, ignorant, and not worth replying to.

  • #83483
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    We all know that the Costas were littered with Scum agents (not all agents though) but mainly those ‘bigger’ agents in places like Marbella and P. Banus that have been exposed by the S.Times.

    It was definitely these ‘Scum’ who pushed the concept of ‘flipping’ property as a safe form of investment to 1000’s of new and unwary Brits. etc, not really the fault of the buyers who were totally deceived.

    Those agents should have been expelled, taken to court by the negligent Spanish gov’t who merrily allowed this deception all for the sake of the Government greed. The Government, lawyers,,Mayors, Town Halls, Developers, Scum agents, are all to blame along with inept regulatory bodies like FOPDAC and AIPP, and the so called motor manufacturer awards that could be bought by these agents.

    Buyers have been well and truly shafted in Spain, and now it’s happening elsewhere.

    Buyer Beware 👿

  • #83484
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Buyers have been well and truly shafted in Spain, and now it’s happening elsewhere.”

    To be honest with you, I have never heard in other countries of properties deemed illegal after constructions.

    I have heard of foreigners (or locals) being offered inflated prices, etc.

    So Spain really is unique.

  • #83498
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Agents are still lying now trying to attract clients by claiming to have bargains.

  • #83516
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Holly – first of all let me say that I have sympathy with the situation you find yourself in, but I do feel you are wrong to blame everything upon everyone else.

    @holly wrote:

    ordinary working class people who simply wanted to top up a defunct pension pot to help pay off a mortgage on retirement.
    Not investors by profession, but aware of the possible profit by selling offf plan.

    It seems to me, from this statement, that you came to Spain to look and possibly buy property as no more than an investment for profit. You seemingly had no interest in buying a property as a lifestyle purchase. As regards the possible profit, you surely were aware that all investments can fall as well as rise?

    @holly wrote:

    we…. were shown 3 properties. We chose the one with the “Marbella postcode” this was our guarantee supposedly.

    The only thing that a Marbella postcode would guarantee would be a higher cost of living – higher local taxes, higher prices in the local bars and shops. The reputation of Marbella is built upon the “Jet Set” – those that own 2-3 million euro properties on the Golden Mile, those that have 2 million euro boats moored in Banus. 2 bed / 2 bath units (in total over supply as well) would never have offered a guaranteedinvestment opportunity. Also, would you buy a property in the UK based upon viewing two properties in areas that did not interest you and one in the area that did? I honestly don’t think that you came on that inspection visit with your homework done and eyes fully opened!

    @holly wrote:

    You can imagine how smug we felt how lucky was that more than we had expected!

    And had the market stayed in your favour you still would – unfortunately the world economy is changing and there is nothing any of us can do about it. Had you managed to “flip” and make that profit you wouldn’t be on this forum telling everyone how stupid the developer and EA were to let you gain to that extent?

    @holly wrote:

    We were then informed last year that our complex has been legalised on the new PGOU and our developer has offered land as compensation.

    It hasn’t been legalised as yet, but if the PGOU proposed is accepted by the Junta and the developer provides the compensation, it should be

    @holly wrote:

    the euro situation is pathetic

    It is not pathetic, it is just that the Pound along with the Dollar have weakened and at the moment the Euro is considered to be one of the world’s stronger currencies. Obviously buying in Spain in Euros, the exchange rate was always one of the factors that an investor should have taken into account when making an investment, especially if servicing debt incurred on that purchase from Sterling income. Further, the blame for the Pound/Euro rate lies at the door of the British people and their elected government. The UK should be a part of the euro and not outside it if they wish to consider themselves as full members of the EU. They chose to retain the pound and have left themselves open to this situation.

    @holly wrote:

    we retire in 5 years time with two mortgages

    Why? Presumably you will sell one of the properties and clear the mortgages. It may be that you take a small loss (and by that I mean on what you paid, not what you expected to sell for) but that sometimes happens with investments – they can fall as well as rise. I do presume that you did not buy to retire to Spain, but if you did (which does not agree with your earlier statment that you had intended to “flip”) then you will sell the UK property instead.

    @holly wrote:

    we don’t seem to be able to get information as to what stage they are at in getting the PGOU through

    Quite simply, it is still going through consultation stages and is in a queue withthe PGOU of every other town hall in Andalucia at the Junta’s offices. It will come out approved or otherwise in time.

    @holly wrote:

    It also rankles with me when I see buyers being accused of being greedy, professional investors yes, but not ordinary people like us.

    Not sure why – by your own admission you bought the property to “flip” it and make a profit with no intent of residing in it. I would call that greed. Professional investors have lost money on their investments, but they knew that could happen when they went into the investment and accept their losses in the same way they would have taken their profits. That must apply to the amateur investors as well.

    @holly wrote:

    we were let down by Estate Agents/Developers

    Not sure why you feel you were let down by Estate Agents. I do not like REA’s overall, BUT as I read it, you have never employed / instructed one in Spain. You bought via the SELLERS agent – they were working for the seller and as such can not have let you down. Lied to you, given you false hopes (although they may have been true predictions at the time you were buying) possibly, but let you down, NO.

    @holly wrote:

    We have also been let down by MEP’s who keep trotting out the same weak garbage that they can not interfere, what about Human Rights?

    Again, not sure why. The problems you have are with the laws of a member state and not with laws of the European Parliament. Leave the legality question aside (as that seems to be in hand and being rectified) why should or how could an MEP become involved in the matter – they have no authority and no remit within Spain. Human rights do not, IMO, come into this – your rights as a consumer / contracted purchaser , yes. But that is a matter of law within the Spanish Courts. The making of a profit on an investment is not a human right, so a loss on the same investment can not be a breach of human rights!

    Once again, you have my sympathy for you plight but by your own admission you bought an investment property intending to “flip” it for a profit to top up your pension. Legalities are being resolved so your main gripe is you haven’t made a profit, maybe will make a loss yet you blame everyone but yourself for deciding to make that investment. Your own words were that you were smug when there was a potential profit, so you have to accept a loss on the investment in the same good grace!

  • #83519
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    holly

    the bottom line is, you were let down/cheated by your agent, your lawyer, the developer, and the council. A crap system that allowed you to be conned and building to go ahead, even though it was illegal!

    For heavens sake, we all know there are good agents, lawyers, developers about, but the reason Spains is in the current mess is largely due to the sort of people who have let you down. How much more evidence is required than thousands of unwanted/half built/illegal apartments and thousands of court cases against the crooks at all levels, stretching years ahead.

    You have every right to blame the guilty parties. You are not the liar or the cheat.

  • #83527
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @rob-fuengirola wrote:

    Further, the blame for the Pound/Euro rate lies at the door of the British people and their elected government. The UK should be a part of the euro and not outside it if they wish to consider themselves as full members of the EU. They chose to retain the pound and have left themselves open to this situation.

    Rob, I agree with everything you say except the above. I think the PIGS would dearly love to be able to control their own interest rates at the moment because they are screwed by being in the euro. A strong currency is not good if you actually need a weak one to help you grow.

    Marbella may be different because it is a resort town but I don’t really know. But when I was in Cadiz there was one woman who was buying everything she could whilst proclaiming her love of the Spanish people. She was unable to speak to the young Spanish in order to understand that it was them she was helping to dispossess. She’s probably bankrupt by now.

  • #83528
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    With regard to this…

    1) “We remortgaged to supply our deposit( I know wrong move! but lots of other people did the same thing). “

    Banks should not offer so easily re-mortgage deals. Not for risky investments…

    How would the bank know if its risky? What you are suggesting here is that unless you have a peerless credit record and unquestionable equity the banks should not led money. Three quarters of the people in the land would not own property on this basis and we would have a nanny state.

    Goodstich44

    You are correct there are many thousands of properties which are deemed to be not legal due mainly to the delayed approval of the PGOU. Most people agree that this will be forthcoming and one way or another 99.99% of properties will stay and have a LFO hopefully soon. At the time Holly bought this is the way it worked many did buy and flipped (without an LFO or legality) to make money, not greed but an investment (well speculation really), a gamble. I think Holly’s issue is that the investment has not made the return she expected and she gambled with money she could not afford to lose. Clearly bad judgment (or luck.) She was given the sales spiel and clearly people had / where making money this way so why do you think she was lied to. It would also appear she went out (before speaking to sales staff) believing she could flip and pay off her mortgage.

    Holly

    My advice for what it’s worth is you have three ways to go 1) If you’ve not completed yet walk away and take the hit 2) If you’ve completed sell for what ever you can get and walk away 3) Stick with it and wait until it turns round and when LFO’s are issued the market should recover. While I’m no expert (others here are) I would think that a Marbella post code should help any recovery.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #83529
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Banks should not offer so easily re-mortgage deals. Not for risky investments…
    How would the bank know if its risky? What you are suggesting here is that unless you have a peerless credit record and unquestionable equity the banks should not led money.”

    Believe me, banks know much more than we do. they have insight knowledge in everything.

    I do not think you understood what I was saying.

  • #83530
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @ralita wrote:

    “Banks should not offer so easily re-mortgage deals. Not for risky investments…
    How would the bank know if its risky? What you are suggesting here is that unless you have a peerless credit record and unquestionable equity the banks should not led money.”

    Believe me, banks know much more than we do. they have insight knowledge in everything.

    I do not think you understood what I was saying.

    Banks are businesses. They are there to accept deposits and relend at a margin (or profit). They view each application on it’s merits especially with regard to risk. Not the risk to the borrower, but the risk to the bank and it’s investors and shareholders. Quite simply are they going to get their money back with profit. If the loan given was affordable within the income of the borrower, the loan is likely to be approved. Chances are that the borrower did not tell the bank manager that this was only a deposit and that a further mortgage would actually be needed to buy the property! With the loan then secured against a UK property with presumably good equity, the bank has no risk factor so loan easily approved. Not a risky investment (for the bank!)

  • #83531
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I do not think you understood what I was saying

    Enlighten me then.

    As far as i could see there is little risk to the Bank (they only lend up to 70% of equity) and Holly decided where she placed her money which turned out to be risky. How could that be the banks fault? The bank looking at the investment at the time would have most likely thought it to be a good one, as Rob pointed out they are there to make money not lose it and as we have seen with the sub prime market they also get it wrong. Thinking about it they could claim that they (the banks) where lied to and cheated as these sub prime investments where sold as AAA investments by other banks and funds.

  • #83536
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Banks are businesses. They are there to accept deposits and relend at a margin (or profit). They view each application on it’s merits especially with regard to risk. Not the risk to the borrower, but the risk to the bank and it’s investors and shareholders. “

    Hi Rob and Paul,

    sorry, I was brief in my previous statement.

    When I said risky bank investment I was thinking at the following scenario (I am not claiming by any means that it is Holly’s situation):

    – somebody takes a say £100K secured loand against the property in UK.

    – that £100K is used for a payment in Spain (I do not believe that many properties in
    marbella costed less that £100K in 2005 so I consider that the costy of the property in Spain is more than £100K).

    – the price for the Spanish property goes down and the person is not interested anymore in purchasing it.

    – he/she either loses the £100K deposit or is forced to buy and they tries to sell for a loss of more than £100K.

    – the person remains with a £100K debt which cannot be covered from salary and
    the person needs to sell the UK property and downgrade.

    – the prices in UK have also fallen and the cost the UK property is now lower than the mortgage.

    – the person forecloses in UK.

    – the bank has losses due to the UK property foreclosure.

    Everything started from that secured loan for the Spanish house purchase.

    Of course this is a worse case scenario, but it might happen…

  • #83541
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    – the person remains with a £100K debt which cannot be covered from salary and the person needs to sell the UK property and downgrade.

    -the prices in UK have also fallen and the cost the UK property is now lower than the mortgage

    That’s where your argument falls, banks value the UK property before lending and will only give up to 70% of its value as equity release, plus they will also want to see that you have the means to pay.

    So someone would have to lose their job and the property value in the UK would have to fall by more than 70% of the original valuation. Now that would be bad luck!

  • #83544
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    “That’s where your argument falls, banks value the UK property before lending and will only give up to 70% of its value as equity release, plus they will also want to see that you have”

    It is enough a 30% fall in prices to go bellow the 70% assesed value. This is not impossible.

    Anyway, the MEW story was bad for both Spanish and UK property. Younger generations were left outside the markets because their parents/aunts/uncles/grand parents abused the
    MEW and artificially inflated the prices.

  • #83569
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @p800aul wrote:

    That’s where your argument falls, banks value the UK property before lending and will only give up to 70% of its value as equity release, plus they will also want to see that you have the means to pay.

    House prices in the UK have dropped by a few percentage points and banks are either going bust or having to raise money through rights issues. If property prices drop by 30%, and that happened in the early 90s, I would expect a few more will be nationalised.

    @p800aul wrote:

    So someone would have to lose their job and the property value in the UK would have to fall by more than 70% of the original valuation. Now that would be bad luck!

    Well, that’s my prediction. What do you think will happen?

  • #83571
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Have a look at my posting re Property Crash Contines for an answer.

  • #83574
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Well, that’s my prediction. What do you think will happen?”

    Mike, some people still do not understand the disaster we are experiencing now… Maybe it is better that way…

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