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This topic contains 47 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of logan logan 8 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #54072
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    In Aug 2005 €183,000 converted to £122,000, now €173,000 converts to £138,000 so not such a bargain.

    But then, if you paid €58,000 then it cost you £38,500 in 2005. You now want to sell the contract at €48,000 which you would convert to and get £38,500. Considering Spanish property prices are dropping like a stone I wish you luck.

  • #84249
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    But as I understand it, a lot of the properties on this development do not have a building licence, the build is two years behind and the golf course and other facilities may never complete due to a lack of sales?

    As these developers seem to chase defaulting purchasers, maybe it would be worth considering a much lower price?

    @Ciaran wrote:

    the contact can be assigned for a payment of €48,743.

    Maybe €18,000 ?

  • #84064
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    But as I understand it, a lot of the properties on this development do not have a building licence, the build is two years behind and the golf course and other facilities may never complete due to a lack of sales?

    As these developers seem to chase defaulting purchasers, maybe it would be worth considering a much lower price?

    @Ciaran wrote:

    the contact can be assigned for a payment of €48,743.

    Maybe €18,000 ?

  • #84297
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rob, I find you posting to be highly insulting. Does it give you real satisfaction to make throw away comments like that – 18K Euros. By the way, the Licence for my phase has been issued and I have been assured that well over half of the total proprties have been sold and not all have been released yet. Now, unless you have insider information to prove otherwise I can only think that your comments are your theory into what is going on. Or perhaps you were just bored and wanted to upset someone 😡

  • #84097
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rob, I find you posting to be highly insulting. Does it give you real satisfaction to make throw away comments like that – 18K Euros. By the way, the Licence for my phase has been issued and I have been assured that well over half of the total proprties have been sold and not all have been released yet. Now, unless you have insider information to prove otherwise I can only think that your comments are your theory into what is going on. Or perhaps you were just bored and wanted to upset someone 😡

  • #84298
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Rob is correct. In the current climate 18K looks a fair offer. I personally won’t touch contract resales with a barge pole.
    You can dress it up any which way you like but contract resales are a desparate bid to get out from under.
    By that I mean a hopeless situation called the Spanish property market. You might as well invest your money on the favorite at the 2.30 at Newmarket. The risk is almost the same.

  • #84098
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Rob is correct. In the current climate 18K looks a fair offer. I personally won’t touch contract resales with a barge pole.
    You can dress it up any which way you like but contract resales are a desparate bid to get out from under.
    By that I mean a hopeless situation called the Spanish property market. You might as well invest your money on the favorite at the 2.30 at Newmarket. The risk is almost the same.

  • #84299
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    ….the Licence for my phase has been issued and I have been assured that well over half of the total proprties have been sold

    Natty
    A friend of mine looked at this development in April and had discussions with a localish lawyer. Apparantly (in April) phase 2 did not have a building licence although work was in progress on villas in that phase.

    Apparantly, the build is about 2 years behind and the contracts are written on the basis of 18 months completion AFTER build comences (not after reservation). As a result, theer are many trying to “get out” with no way out other than as a resale.

    Apparantly about 1050 of 1850 properties are “sold” but not all will complete. In today’s market, how long before the rest are sold and the resort on it’s feet? Bank valutions are coming back below purchase prices so mortgages are not easy at all. At lot of the facilities will be delayed (including the golf course) until a lot more properties are sold and completed is the local feeling.

    Bearing in mind that 2005 off plan prices have generally fallen to about 85% of the original price, coupled with the fact that there are doubts amongst locals as to what facilities will be available, and when, the suggestion of €18K I made may not be far out.

    As I said, mine is second hand info, but from a good source.

  • #84099
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    ….the Licence for my phase has been issued and I have been assured that well over half of the total proprties have been sold

    Natty
    A friend of mine looked at this development in April and had discussions with a localish lawyer. Apparantly (in April) phase 2 did not have a building licence although work was in progress on villas in that phase.

    Apparantly, the build is about 2 years behind and the contracts are written on the basis of 18 months completion AFTER build comences (not after reservation). As a result, theer are many trying to “get out” with no way out other than as a resale.

    Apparantly about 1050 of 1850 properties are “sold” but not all will complete. In today’s market, how long before the rest are sold and the resort on it’s feet? Bank valutions are coming back below purchase prices so mortgages are not easy at all. At lot of the facilities will be delayed (including the golf course) until a lot more properties are sold and completed is the local feeling.

    Bearing in mind that 2005 off plan prices have generally fallen to about 85% of the original price, coupled with the fact that there are doubts amongst locals as to what facilities will be available, and when, the suggestion of €18K I made may not be far out.

    As I said, mine is second hand info, but from a good source.

  • #84328
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    Reliable sources your friends, localish lawyer, bank valuers etc etc – as you say your info is second hand -sounds like pub gossip to me

    No not pub gossip, but a friend who was looking at the development seriously and knows his way around the Spanish Market – spoke to a lawyer “out of town” intentionally, you don’t use one “in town” when buying in Spain, nor in the town of the developer – you have a reasonable chance of finding one who is independent that way!

    The property my friend was offered was a 4 bed/3 bath detached villa of 150 metres. It was originally €545K and off plan an equivalent is now €620K. 30% has been paid plus iva = €175K . It was available for contract transfer at €70K plus outstanding balance of €380 = €450K. My friend was interested but following a visit to the area offered €20K plus balance. He did that on the grounds that the property would probably not be complete to 2010-2011 and at €20K he would take a risk.

    Apparently, phase 4 is likely to complete in 2012 if at all – depending on sales and in today’s market that may well not happen. The golf course is expected to be completed at about the same time (and I guess if there are enough sales)

    There were a lot of things my friend was not happy about and he really did get the feeling that the project may well not be completed as planned.

    His offer was declined but two days later, the agent was phoning to suggest that “something like €50K might be acceptable to the seller”!! It appears the contract has been for sale for 6 months and this was the first serious interest. Apparently of the 1050 sold properties, 150 plus are available for resale off plan. The developer does have a reputation for chasing defaulting buyers so most are ready to offload at any price.

    @Ciaran wrote:

    For the record -licences for phase 1 and 2 were issued in April 2008 (although works commenced in Nov 2007

    As I said before, on the 5th April, there were no building licences in place – this may have changed since though.

    @Ciaran wrote:

    I think if you look at the developers and the selling agents sites you will see the prices there

    Look at any selling agents sites at the moment and you will see properties priced at 30-40% over their realistic value. What any agent asks for a property will not be the selling price in today’s market. And with over 40% of the project left to be sold plus nearly 10% of those already sold being for sale before completion, I think prices will fall dramatically. This developer is not going to find 1,000 buyers very easily when it has taken them 3 to 4 years in boom times to find that number!

    @Ciaran wrote:

    I see that you have also being talking to the locals

    No and I didn’t say that – my friend had.

    Best of luck with your attempts to resell, but I do think you need to rethink the price.

  • #84127
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    Reliable sources your friends, localish lawyer, bank valuers etc etc – as you say your info is second hand -sounds like pub gossip to me

    No not pub gossip, but a friend who was looking at the development seriously and knows his way around the Spanish Market – spoke to a lawyer “out of town” intentionally, you don’t use one “in town” when buying in Spain, nor in the town of the developer – you have a reasonable chance of finding one who is independent that way!

    The property my friend was offered was a 4 bed/3 bath detached villa of 150 metres. It was originally €545K and off plan an equivalent is now €620K. 30% has been paid plus iva = €175K . It was available for contract transfer at €70K plus outstanding balance of €380 = €450K. My friend was interested but following a visit to the area offered €20K plus balance. He did that on the grounds that the property would probably not be complete to 2010-2011 and at €20K he would take a risk.

    Apparently, phase 4 is likely to complete in 2012 if at all – depending on sales and in today’s market that may well not happen. The golf course is expected to be completed at about the same time (and I guess if there are enough sales)

    There were a lot of things my friend was not happy about and he really did get the feeling that the project may well not be completed as planned.

    His offer was declined but two days later, the agent was phoning to suggest that “something like €50K might be acceptable to the seller”!! It appears the contract has been for sale for 6 months and this was the first serious interest. Apparently of the 1050 sold properties, 150 plus are available for resale off plan. The developer does have a reputation for chasing defaulting buyers so most are ready to offload at any price.

    @Ciaran wrote:

    For the record -licences for phase 1 and 2 were issued in April 2008 (although works commenced in Nov 2007

    As I said before, on the 5th April, there were no building licences in place – this may have changed since though.

    @Ciaran wrote:

    I think if you look at the developers and the selling agents sites you will see the prices there

    Look at any selling agents sites at the moment and you will see properties priced at 30-40% over their realistic value. What any agent asks for a property will not be the selling price in today’s market. And with over 40% of the project left to be sold plus nearly 10% of those already sold being for sale before completion, I think prices will fall dramatically. This developer is not going to find 1,000 buyers very easily when it has taken them 3 to 4 years in boom times to find that number!

    @Ciaran wrote:

    I see that you have also being talking to the locals

    No and I didn’t say that – my friend had.

    Best of luck with your attempts to resell, but I do think you need to rethink the price.

  • #84336
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rob

    I really do not want to get into a ‘tit-for-tat’ argument over this, as lately that is all that seems to happen on this forum. However, you state that Bank Valuations are coming back below purchase price – how can this be? How can you value a property that is not complete. Who has given these Bank Valuations? Most of the properties are still shells. Only the more advanced builds are having internal work done.

    I think that a lot of purchasers on this development were purchasing to make a quick buck. Yes, obviously, times have changed and they are now trying to sell quick. Of course they are going to sell for what they can get. I reserved my property in May 2005. The delay has been extremely long, but things are moving along quickly now. The golf course is anticipated for completion approximately one year after completion of Phases I and II. The Developer has informed us of this. I can understand that some purchasers need to sell because they were relying on rentals. You can’t rent on a golf course that has no golf course. What is their alternative. This, I feel, does not reflect on the development itself. I still think that your comments are speculative and not substantiated. As I said previously, not all properties have been released yet – so there have not been the total 1845 available to purchase. In the current climate of course selling property is, to say the least, extremely difficult – but what development/property isn’t having problems. I understand that forums are there for everyone to share their opinions, and I respect that, however unless you have some solid proof of the development not completing I think it very unfair of you to cause worry to purchasers who are maybe under pressure to sell for whatever reason – financial or other. All your comments will do is cause more worry, who benefits from that.

  • #84131
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rob

    I really do not want to get into a ‘tit-for-tat’ argument over this, as lately that is all that seems to happen on this forum. However, you state that Bank Valuations are coming back below purchase price – how can this be? How can you value a property that is not complete. Who has given these Bank Valuations? Most of the properties are still shells. Only the more advanced builds are having internal work done.

    I think that a lot of purchasers on this development were purchasing to make a quick buck. Yes, obviously, times have changed and they are now trying to sell quick. Of course they are going to sell for what they can get. I reserved my property in May 2005. The delay has been extremely long, but things are moving along quickly now. The golf course is anticipated for completion approximately one year after completion of Phases I and II. The Developer has informed us of this. I can understand that some purchasers need to sell because they were relying on rentals. You can’t rent on a golf course that has no golf course. What is their alternative. This, I feel, does not reflect on the development itself. I still think that your comments are speculative and not substantiated. As I said previously, not all properties have been released yet – so there have not been the total 1845 available to purchase. In the current climate of course selling property is, to say the least, extremely difficult – but what development/property isn’t having problems. I understand that forums are there for everyone to share their opinions, and I respect that, however unless you have some solid proof of the development not completing I think it very unfair of you to cause worry to purchasers who are maybe under pressure to sell for whatever reason – financial or other. All your comments will do is cause more worry, who benefits from that.

  • #84338
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Being (understandibly) cynical about how things work in Spain I would assume there will not be a golf course. Even the bad developments usually manage to get the course underway before the first houses are built. If people have completed there is no incentive is there!

  • #84132
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Being (understandibly) cynical about how things work in Spain I would assume there will not be a golf course. Even the bad developments usually manage to get the course underway before the first houses are built. If people have completed there is no incentive is there!

  • #84342
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Cynical Katy, never would have guessed. Got any constructive comments or just want to add your bad penniesworth.

  • #84134
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Cynical Katy, never would have guessed. Got any constructive comments or just want to add your bad penniesworth.

  • #84346
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    katy
    Spectator

    It was a constructive comment.

  • #84136
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It was a constructive comment.

  • #84348
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    The golf course is anticipated for completion approximately one year after completion of Phases I and II. The Developer has informed us of this.

    Our promised golf course never materialised, despite our developer making a big deal of there being one. Even had a wonderful model of it in their office. Our problem happened to be a revoked building licence but there are two other huge potential problems currently threatening planned golf courses.

    1) Many developers are running out of money and have big cash flow problems, in the majority of cases I would say because of slow or lack of completions.

    2) Big arguments going on at the moment over water between the developers and the farmers.

    If some developments are not even getting their swimming pools built, it is only being realistic to say a planned golf course is at risk in this day and age in Spain.

  • #84137
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    The golf course is anticipated for completion approximately one year after completion of Phases I and II. The Developer has informed us of this.

    Our promised golf course never materialised, despite our developer making a big deal of there being one. Even had a wonderful model of it in their office. Our problem happened to be a revoked building licence but there are two other huge potential problems currently threatening planned golf courses.

    1) Many developers are running out of money and have big cash flow problems, in the majority of cases I would say because of slow or lack of completions.

    2) Big arguments going on at the moment over water between the developers and the farmers.

    If some developments are not even getting their swimming pools built, it is only being realistic to say a planned golf course is at risk in this day and age in Spain.

  • #84350
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    Bank Valuations are coming back below purchase price – how can this be? How can you value a property that is not complete.

    Simple – Spanish Bank Valuations are on the whole just paper valuations of built metres times a metre value for the locality with little regard to added facilities, ESPECIALLY if those added facilities do not yet exist.

    @Natty wrote:

    I think that a lot of purchasers on this development were purchasing to make a quick buck. Yes, obviously, times have changed and they are now trying to sell quick. Of course they are going to sell for what they can get.

    And obviously that will force prices even lower than they already are and in turn limit still further prospective buyers for remaining developers unsold units.

    @Natty wrote:

    The golf course is anticipated for completion approximately one year after completion of Phases I and II. The Developer has informed us of this.

    Anticipation is of little value, contractual term is a little more important! So over 1,000 units will be completed before the developer provides a course a year later? I am not a golfer but do understand that it would take a couple of years more before the course would be playable at a reasonable standard. And you honestly believe what a developer tells you whilst trying to shift the remaining 50% of the development in a flat market?

    @Natty wrote:

    I can understand that some purchasers need to sell because they were relying on rentals. You can’t rent on a golf course that has no golf course

    Correct and since the course is “anticipated” in it’s virgin form in about 2012, and worth playing from 2014, don’t you think the lack of rental income is going to mean more units are not completed upon or subject to resale or even bank foreclosure? The development has only one thing to offer – a golf course – and you expect good rental returns from any property with it’s only facility being one 18 hole course anyway? Prices will get even more depressed!

    @Natty wrote:

    I still think that your comments are speculative and not substantiated

    They are speculative based on how many of us feel developments that are incomplete in their structure and are only 50% sold will have some severe problems financially. They are in some ways substantiated by, but totally based upon, current market conditions.

    @Natty wrote:

    not all properties have been released yet – so there have not been the total 1845 available to purchase.

    I think you need to check that – my friend was told all properties have now been released. Phases 3 & 4 are available for sale but obviously with no licences!!!

    @Natty wrote:

    In the current climate of course selling property is, to say the least, extremely difficult – but what development/property isn’t having problems

    And a development only 50% sold where what has been sold in the last 5 boom years equates to what is left to sell is going to have some BIG problems, especially when promised facilities that form the back bone of that development and not even anticipated for 4 years or so!!

    @Natty wrote:

    I think it very unfair of you to cause worry to purchasers who are maybe under pressure to sell for whatever reason – financial or other. All your comments will do is cause more worry, who benefits from that

    It is fair to warn potential purchasers of any resales that the development gives rise to reason for concern. If a (original) purchaser has had their fingers burnt one way or another because (by your admission) many have bought to make a quick buck, it is fair that any potential purchaser realises the potential pit falls they will have if they purchase the contract. The people that benefit from these comments will be those seeking property for lifestyle reasons, not those that tried to buy to flip at a profit and are now bailing out because it just will not happen for them.

    My friend is a very shrewd guy, who did enough homework in 24 hours to realise that only peanuts (like 10% of the 30% deposit plus IVA plus the balance of 70% – ie a total of 73% of the 2004 price) is the maximum value of properties on this development in it’s current level of build coupled with today’s market.

    @Natty wrote:

    I understand that forums are there for everyone to share their opinions

    So please respect the opinions of us that know this development will not complete in it’s projected form and timetable. If people have aimed to “make a quick buck” and have come unstuck then good! It is these people that have helped to create the speculative overbuild that is causing so many problems within the Spanish Property Market, coupled of course with world credit crunch. This development has many unsolved environmental issues associated with it and IF the golf course is ever built, I hope the golfers that use it will be happy with brown greens.

  • #84138
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    Bank Valuations are coming back below purchase price – how can this be? How can you value a property that is not complete.

    Simple – Spanish Bank Valuations are on the whole just paper valuations of built metres times a metre value for the locality with little regard to added facilities, ESPECIALLY if those added facilities do not yet exist.

    @Natty wrote:

    I think that a lot of purchasers on this development were purchasing to make a quick buck. Yes, obviously, times have changed and they are now trying to sell quick. Of course they are going to sell for what they can get.

    And obviously that will force prices even lower than they already are and in turn limit still further prospective buyers for remaining developers unsold units.

    @Natty wrote:

    The golf course is anticipated for completion approximately one year after completion of Phases I and II. The Developer has informed us of this.

    Anticipation is of little value, contractual term is a little more important! So over 1,000 units will be completed before the developer provides a course a year later? I am not a golfer but do understand that it would take a couple of years more before the course would be playable at a reasonable standard. And you honestly believe what a developer tells you whilst trying to shift the remaining 50% of the development in a flat market?

    @Natty wrote:

    I can understand that some purchasers need to sell because they were relying on rentals. You can’t rent on a golf course that has no golf course

    Correct and since the course is “anticipated” in it’s virgin form in about 2012, and worth playing from 2014, don’t you think the lack of rental income is going to mean more units are not completed upon or subject to resale or even bank foreclosure? The development has only one thing to offer – a golf course – and you expect good rental returns from any property with it’s only facility being one 18 hole course anyway? Prices will get even more depressed!

    @Natty wrote:

    I still think that your comments are speculative and not substantiated

    They are speculative based on how many of us feel developments that are incomplete in their structure and are only 50% sold will have some severe problems financially. They are in some ways substantiated by, but totally based upon, current market conditions.

    @Natty wrote:

    not all properties have been released yet – so there have not been the total 1845 available to purchase.

    I think you need to check that – my friend was told all properties have now been released. Phases 3 & 4 are available for sale but obviously with no licences!!!

    @Natty wrote:

    In the current climate of course selling property is, to say the least, extremely difficult – but what development/property isn’t having problems

    And a development only 50% sold where what has been sold in the last 5 boom years equates to what is left to sell is going to have some BIG problems, especially when promised facilities that form the back bone of that development and not even anticipated for 4 years or so!!

    @Natty wrote:

    I think it very unfair of you to cause worry to purchasers who are maybe under pressure to sell for whatever reason – financial or other. All your comments will do is cause more worry, who benefits from that

    It is fair to warn potential purchasers of any resales that the development gives rise to reason for concern. If a (original) purchaser has had their fingers burnt one way or another because (by your admission) many have bought to make a quick buck, it is fair that any potential purchaser realises the potential pit falls they will have if they purchase the contract. The people that benefit from these comments will be those seeking property for lifestyle reasons, not those that tried to buy to flip at a profit and are now bailing out because it just will not happen for them.

    My friend is a very shrewd guy, who did enough homework in 24 hours to realise that only peanuts (like 10% of the 30% deposit plus IVA plus the balance of 70% – ie a total of 73% of the 2004 price) is the maximum value of properties on this development in it’s current level of build coupled with today’s market.

    @Natty wrote:

    I understand that forums are there for everyone to share their opinions

    So please respect the opinions of us that know this development will not complete in it’s projected form and timetable. If people have aimed to “make a quick buck” and have come unstuck then good! It is these people that have helped to create the speculative overbuild that is causing so many problems within the Spanish Property Market, coupled of course with world credit crunch. This development has many unsolved environmental issues associated with it and IF the golf course is ever built, I hope the golfers that use it will be happy with brown greens.

  • #84363
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    As I said I’m not going to be drawn into tit-for-tat – so lets just wait and see.

  • #84145
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As I said I’m not going to be drawn into tit-for-tat – so lets just wait and see.

  • #84369
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    BLIMEY !! I bet you were not expecting that reaction to your “For Sale” ad ! I just want to stand up for this site/forum. We have got our apartment up for sale on this site ( ” BARGAIN, Apartment for sale in Duquesa”) 3rd one down on this page at the moment. We have had many people view our ad, much positive feed back and also have several people viewing our apartment during their summer holidays through out the summer.
    I have no opinion on your place as I do not know the area , SO I do not know if the reaction is justified. What I want to say to others is, go ahead & use this page to advertise, it seems to get some very informed & genuine readers in great numbers compared to most other sites. Also good luck with your sale.

  • #84148
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    BLIMEY !! I bet you were not expecting that reaction to your “For Sale” ad ! I just want to stand up for this site/forum. We have got our apartment up for sale on this site ( ” BARGAIN, Apartment for sale in Duquesa”) 3rd one down on this page at the moment. We have had many people view our ad, much positive feed back and also have several people viewing our apartment during their summer holidays through out the summer.
    I have no opinion on your place as I do not know the area , SO I do not know if the reaction is justified. What I want to say to others is, go ahead & use this page to advertise, it seems to get some very informed & genuine readers in great numbers compared to most other sites. Also good luck with your sale.

  • #84375
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    As I said I’m not going to be drawn into tit-for-tat

    Natty – there is no “tit for tat” – I have no interest personally in either the development or the area in question and much less interest in golf.

    However, we have two opinions – one based on fact, knowledge and research – one based on hope.

    In many ways, I do hope you are right – but as you said, let’s wait and see.

    In this forum, I want to see the truth emerge – not biases. When I see a private sale from someone who talks up the property past all reasonable levels I will warn potential buyers IF I (and in this case I do) have some knowledge.

    I hope you did your homework in terms of rent-ability, enjoyment and value of the property if no golf course is built. If the price you contracted at was good at the time with these in mind, then so long as you have made a lifestyle buy you will be OK – the value to you of the property has not changed. If you have bought as an investment (either to flip or to rent) then the property has lost a lot of value. Old story – investments can fall as well as rise and any investment on this development is unlikely to rise for a long while! The right property in the right place will still attract interest (as Jackie seems to be finding) but off plan contracts in the wrong location with no current (and no contracted just anticipated) facilities are in for problems. If my friend, who is a seasoned investor, views the value of the development at less than 75% of it’s 2004 value and the reasonable risk factor to be taken on the development at less than 5% of value until facilities are in place, I will take his opinion as almost gospel!!

  • #84151
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Natty wrote:

    As I said I’m not going to be drawn into tit-for-tat

    Natty – there is no “tit for tat” – I have no interest personally in either the development or the area in question and much less interest in golf.

    However, we have two opinions – one based on fact, knowledge and research – one based on hope.

    In many ways, I do hope you are right – but as you said, let’s wait and see.

    In this forum, I want to see the truth emerge – not biases. When I see a private sale from someone who talks up the property past all reasonable levels I will warn potential buyers IF I (and in this case I do) have some knowledge.

    I hope you did your homework in terms of rent-ability, enjoyment and value of the property if no golf course is built. If the price you contracted at was good at the time with these in mind, then so long as you have made a lifestyle buy you will be OK – the value to you of the property has not changed. If you have bought as an investment (either to flip or to rent) then the property has lost a lot of value. Old story – investments can fall as well as rise and any investment on this development is unlikely to rise for a long while! The right property in the right place will still attract interest (as Jackie seems to be finding) but off plan contracts in the wrong location with no current (and no contracted just anticipated) facilities are in for problems. If my friend, who is a seasoned investor, views the value of the development at less than 75% of it’s 2004 value and the reasonable risk factor to be taken on the development at less than 5% of value until facilities are in place, I will take his opinion as almost gospel!!

  • #84393
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I agree completely with Rob and he has my admiration for writing a such detailed and informative precis of this development.
    With so much mis-selling and misleading clap trap about Spainish developments around it’s refreshing to have some real facts.
    In my opinion the Spanish property market is now broken. I think it will not recover for many years and values will drop by half.
    There is so much unrealistic over optimisim from sellers I have come to the conclusion everyone connected to property in Spain is in denial.
    In this case the seller of this contract is clearly in some distress and facing losing the initial investment. My advice is your first loss is always the cheapest. Faced with the realities and difficulties I doubt anyone would be willing to jump into their shoes. At least at the price that’s being offered. Risk is risk. In that event Rob’s 18K looks expensive. 10K might just be worth a punt.

  • #84160
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I agree completely with Rob and he has my admiration for writing a such detailed and informative precis of this development.
    With so much mis-selling and misleading clap trap about Spainish developments around it’s refreshing to have some real facts.
    In my opinion the Spanish property market is now broken. I think it will not recover for many years and values will drop by half.
    There is so much unrealistic over optimisim from sellers I have come to the conclusion everyone connected to property in Spain is in denial.
    In this case the seller of this contract is clearly in some distress and facing losing the initial investment. My advice is your first loss is always the cheapest. Faced with the realities and difficulties I doubt anyone would be willing to jump into their shoes. At least at the price that’s being offered. Risk is risk. In that event Rob’s 18K looks expensive. 10K might just be worth a punt.

  • #84238
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Do you have any links to the information that the PGA will be having this Golf Course as their winter home? Seems very strange that they would nominate to use a Golf Course that is not yet built or matured 😕

  • #84474
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Do you have any links to the information that the PGA will be having this Golf Course as their winter home? Seems very strange that they would nominate to use a Golf Course that is not yet built or matured 😕

  • #84540
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    http://www.clubmurcia.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=298 – 41k –

    http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/news/news.asp?storyid=3472 – 16k –

    These are examples……..

    These are examples of the same press release from Corvera being put onto a web page.

    The interesting thing is….

    @golfbusinessnews.com wrote:

    Corvera Golf & Country Club will become the “PGA’s of Europe Training Academy”, where golf professionals from all over Europe will be able to train all year round – especially during the winter months when the weather conditions in their own country may prevent them from playing and practicing. The PGA’s of Europe will also have their overseas office on site. In the initial stages, these facilities will be provided at Roda Golf & Beach Resort until the Corvera resort is completed

    No mention of it being the winter HQ, but since everything is “until the Corvera resort is completed”, does that not suggest that if it is not completed per plans then maybe the future is not as rosy for the resort?

  • #84378
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    http://www.clubmurcia.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=298 – 41k –

    http://www.golfbusinessnews.com/news/news.asp?storyid=3472 – 16k –

    These are examples……..

    These are examples of the same press release from Corvera being put onto a web page.

    The interesting thing is….

    @golfbusinessnews.com wrote:

    Corvera Golf & Country Club will become the “PGA’s of Europe Training Academy”, where golf professionals from all over Europe will be able to train all year round – especially during the winter months when the weather conditions in their own country may prevent them from playing and practicing. The PGA’s of Europe will also have their overseas office on site. In the initial stages, these facilities will be provided at Roda Golf & Beach Resort until the Corvera resort is completed

    No mention of it being the winter HQ, but since everything is “until the Corvera resort is completed”, does that not suggest that if it is not completed per plans then maybe the future is not as rosy for the resort?

  • #84580
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    Constructive comments are one thing, but selective negativity for negativity sake is another thing.

    That is why my posts are constructive – any negativity is factually based. But there again, I am not trying to offload an investment that will not mature as hoped! Further, I would hate to see anyone looking to buy a property through this forum not be in full possession of the current facts rather than a “talked up” version by a seller needing to sell (for whatever reason).

    The other thing I have just noted reading your posts again, is that THE PGA are not involved in the project or use of it but THE PGA’S of EUROPE. As I said previously, I am not a golfer but it seems to me that the PGA (who I guess are US dominated) are NOT looking to provide a winter HQ at the site (they have all the courses in California and Florida to consider first) but a minor set of individual offshoots are?

  • #84418
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    Constructive comments are one thing, but selective negativity for negativity sake is another thing.

    That is why my posts are constructive – any negativity is factually based. But there again, I am not trying to offload an investment that will not mature as hoped! Further, I would hate to see anyone looking to buy a property through this forum not be in full possession of the current facts rather than a “talked up” version by a seller needing to sell (for whatever reason).

    The other thing I have just noted reading your posts again, is that THE PGA are not involved in the project or use of it but THE PGA’S of EUROPE. As I said previously, I am not a golfer but it seems to me that the PGA (who I guess are US dominated) are NOT looking to provide a winter HQ at the site (they have all the courses in California and Florida to consider first) but a minor set of individual offshoots are?

  • #84584
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    edited

  • #84422
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    edited

  • #84586
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    I would love to know the motivation behind Rob’s posting…My posting has been hijacked for self interests…all I can think is why the anti-Corvera bias…maybe they are pro Polaris World and are spreading their views !!!!

    Ciaran – get real. I live close to Fuengirola on the COSTA DEL SOL. I have no interests in Murcia or any golf development there. I have no interest in Polaris. However, I have an interest in Spain and a love for it and hate the way that artificial pueblos centered around 18 holes are ruining the country. Worse still, I hate the fact that developers put together a speculative 1800 unit development, sell half of it off plan before they get a construction licence, then have no hope of selling the remaining 50% in today’s flat market causing more problems of speculative overbuild and environmental problems of a golf course that needs a lot of water in an region that simply cannot sustain that added demand.

    More than all this, I will not see a speculator who has been caught out, in that they will not make the huge returns expected, try to talk up the property/development in such a way as to try to induce an innocent purchaser into taking on their liability (it is a liability and NOT an asset!). That is especially so as I have some knowledge of the true facts based upon a very trusted and experienced property investing friend.

    Crazy thing is, you have not tried to reason a negation of anything I have said, other than to point out that the building licence has at last been issued for a little under half of the properties (since my friend’s investigations) some 4 years after initial sales and that the golf course has now had some work started on it (I guess digging out a hole for a ball to fall down could be considered a start?) although that will not be completed until a year after the completion of the construction of phases 1 & 2 in 2011 (maybe?). How long does it take to plant some grass seed and dig out 18 holes?

  • #84424
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Ciaran wrote:

    I would love to know the motivation behind Rob’s posting…My posting has been hijacked for self interests…all I can think is why the anti-Corvera bias…maybe they are pro Polaris World and are spreading their views !!!!

    Ciaran – get real. I live close to Fuengirola on the COSTA DEL SOL. I have no interests in Murcia or any golf development there. I have no interest in Polaris. However, I have an interest in Spain and a love for it and hate the way that artificial pueblos centered around 18 holes are ruining the country. Worse still, I hate the fact that developers put together a speculative 1800 unit development, sell half of it off plan before they get a construction licence, then have no hope of selling the remaining 50% in today’s flat market causing more problems of speculative overbuild and environmental problems of a golf course that needs a lot of water in an region that simply cannot sustain that added demand.

    More than all this, I will not see a speculator who has been caught out, in that they will not make the huge returns expected, try to talk up the property/development in such a way as to try to induce an innocent purchaser into taking on their liability (it is a liability and NOT an asset!). That is especially so as I have some knowledge of the true facts based upon a very trusted and experienced property investing friend.

    Crazy thing is, you have not tried to reason a negation of anything I have said, other than to point out that the building licence has at last been issued for a little under half of the properties (since my friend’s investigations) some 4 years after initial sales and that the golf course has now had some work started on it (I guess digging out a hole for a ball to fall down could be considered a start?) although that will not be completed until a year after the completion of the construction of phases 1 & 2 in 2011 (maybe?). How long does it take to plant some grass seed and dig out 18 holes?

  • #84588
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I notice that no new ads have been put on this site since this game of e-mail tennis started. Once again I would like to say to people thinking of advertising on this site, DO NOT BE PUT OFF BY THE ABOVE. Go ahead & post. We have had more people contact us from advertising on this site than any other 😀

  • #84426
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I notice that no new ads have been put on this site since this game of e-mail tennis started. Once again I would like to say to people thinking of advertising on this site, DO NOT BE PUT OFF BY THE ABOVE. Go ahead & post. We have had more people contact us from advertising on this site than any other 😀

  • #84592
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I don’t think Rob is posting any lies, he is just pointing out some cons. I also remain sceptical that there will ever be a Golf Course. (the only time a Golf course is constructed is when it is started at the same time as the developments). I am also doubtful that the PGA would commit at this stage.

  • #84430
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I don’t think Rob is posting any lies, he is just pointing out some cons. I also remain sceptical that there will ever be a Golf Course. (the only time a Golf course is constructed is when it is started at the same time as the developments). I am also doubtful that the PGA would commit at this stage.

  • #84579
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ciaran – you and your motives have been rumbled, so now you remove your posts by copy and pasting copyright material in their place.

    Your little “agent speak style” attempt to offload a bad investment onto an innocent user of this forum has failed.

    Pleased to see that your are admitting what has been pointed out to you is in fact correct, by your childish act.

    Your desire to learn the history of Fuengirola and bring it to every body’s attention does you proud but does not overshadow the fact that you obviously now agree that the purchase of new build and resale properties at Corvera Golf & Country Club are to be avoided at all costs!!

  • #84718
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ciaran – you and your motives have been rumbled, so now you remove your posts by copy and pasting copyright material in their place.

    Your little “agent speak style” attempt to offload a bad investment onto an innocent user of this forum has failed.

    Pleased to see that your are admitting what has been pointed out to you is in fact correct, by your childish act.

    Your desire to learn the history of Fuengirola and bring it to every body’s attention does you proud but does not overshadow the fact that you obviously now agree that the purchase of new build and resale properties at Corvera Golf & Country Club are to be avoided at all costs!!

  • #84846
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Yes I think a number of us rumbled this post early on. I think it illustrates just how desparate the state of the property market in Spain has become. Tumbleweed and dust just about sums it up.
    Take heart folks in 5 years time things might be turning the corner. There is nothing new in all this. I was around in the seventies, then the early eighties. It all happened then and recovered, eventually. The developers all bought back their sequestered properties, paid their fines to the town hall and the currupt Maires left prison and became national heros.
    Funny old world.

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