new players in the market

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This topic contains 43 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 3 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #53987
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    hello everyone, I want to ask if anyone knows if there are any developers that are now taking the chance to enter into the Spanish property market? I understand that the market is clearly in very bad shape but thought that as so many developers are going bust some new ones, perhaps foreign, might be taking up positions to profit from an eventual recovery.

    Miles

  • #91551
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The operative word in eventual. Businesses do not like lack of clarity, direction and requires a time period for a return on their investment besides an expected return on their capital employed.

    Spain, sadly offers none of the above. Because of this they all have a very short term view to any business plans.

    Foreign developers have the whole world at their feet specially if they are cash rich. An exception to this is Taylor Wimpy. There project in San Pedro is a brave & visionary one, banking on British demand to purchase from a British Developer with confidence and with track record.

  • #91553
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Unless banks offer mortgages there’s no point in development.

  • #91554
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for the reply Shakeel, I’ll look into Taylor Wimpey’s Spanish operations.

    And yes you’re largely right Gary but I’ve also read in various places that there is a shortage of high quality property in Spain with most of the unsold stock being undesirable+there has been a slight recovery in demand from foreign buyers so I’m sure there must still be some opportunities for canny developers

  • #91471
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s a good time to be a developer in Spain if you have cash and know what you are doing. There is hardly any competition and you can now offer a superior product at a better price than anything built in the boom.

    It’s a good time for off-plan buyers too: you get much more for your money and the latest in design, tastes, spec. and personalisation.

    The risks are much lower too. Assuming you are not dealing with cowboys, anyone selling off-plan today has the finance in place to build and deliver. The riskiest time to be an off-plan buyer is at the height of the boom, when everyone thinks it’s safe, but there is a bust just around the corner that will sink your developer with all your stage-payments (it happened a lot). Paradoxically, the safest time to buy off-plan is now, when most people assume it is too risky. That’s life.

    There are, however, enough people out there who realise this to make it worthwhile developing today. The few new projects I know of (and there are very, very few) are selling well off-plan, if the marketing mix is right. The main reason why there are so few is because there is zero bank financing, and many developers are still struggling with debt.

    Spanish investors are also starting to return to property in general, and off-plan in particular, because 1) their savings get an insulting return on deposit 2) the bank might go under a la Cyprus 3) all other asset prices have gone crazy and 4) Spanish property prices have now fallen a long way and are starting to look interesting.

  • #91454
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I would sooner gouge out my eyes than invest in off-plan property in Spain. Bad enough before….like suicide now. May as well throw all your money to the nearest beggar ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    As for opportunities for developers ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #91452
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I would sooner gouge out my eyes than invest in off-plan property in Spain. Bad enough before….like suicide now. May as well throw all your money to the nearest beggar ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    As for opportunities for developers ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    I knew you’d have an opinion along those lines ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #91450
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Mark – I don’t know who is selling you this information but I am afraid it is wrong.

    My former business partner is Spanish and an upmarket developer. We remain good friends and see each other regularly. He owns a lot of coastal land, some of it bought from me, in very desirable locations that has planning consent for up market villas.

    I had lunch with him some weeks ago and he is very depressed with the state of the market. In short he cannot sell a brick.

    He actively markets the business and has very good UK connections. Yet he has not sold anything for almost two years.

    His principal problem is property over โ‚ฌ200k requires cash buyers. Mortgage famine and the the fear factor of property investment in Spain among potential buyers with cash. Spain now has a terrible reputation, totally deserved, as a dodgy place to invest.

    Well heeled cash buyers abroad are free to choose more desirable and secure locations which do not cane the buyer with excessive taxation. Basically anywhere outside the Eurozone.

  • #91449
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Mark you say ‘All other asset prices have gone crazy’, however one I thought would go crazy has in fact fallen 20% and that is Gold, below $1500 per oz now, I don’t know why! ๐Ÿ™„ Cyprus is selling it’s gold reserves ๐Ÿ™„

    I’m sure markets are manipulated by the big players ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #91447
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Mark you say ‘All other asset prices have gone crazy’, however one I thought would go crazy has in fact fallen 20% and that is Gold, below $1500 per oz now, I don’t know why! ๐Ÿ™„ Cyprus is selling it’s gold reserves ๐Ÿ™„

    I’m sure markets are manipulated by the big players ๐Ÿ˜‰

    There was a big crash in Bitcoin values last week (after it had been talked up to a high level). Volatile times.

  • #91444
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Global asset prices have risen due to demand in China, the far east and the BRIC nations. You cannot assume domestic property in Europe will rise to catch up.

    All international markets are manipulated by the big players. That’s the point, to make money for themselves not serve some humanitarian interest.

    European property prices may rise if the newly rich middle classes of those nations start seeking holiday homes in Spain but how likely is that? They will much more likely look for the opportunities in their own back yard.

  • #91442
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Yes Bitcoin was a really strange cyber asset, it had all the hallmarks of a crash coming, I could not for the life of me see why people were rushing in to an intangible asset, better to have bet on the horses than Bitcoin, not that I do ๐Ÿ™„

  • #91437
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    In Madrid most of the new developments now seem to be cooperativas rather than private developments. Investing in a cooperativa carries its own risks but the benefits include cutting out the main middle man and having a say in how the property is built. You normally end up with a cheaper property but you might have to wait for it. The reason why they’re so popular now is the market is so low that there is no margin for private developers.

    Having attended meetings with a few cooperativas I get the impression the main problem right now is that banks won’t lend for land purchases. So land must be bought with cash. The banks will however lend to pay for the construction of buildings, which of course is now a lot cheaper than it was a few years ago.

  • #91438
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Regarding bit coins – I heard somewhere that it was Russians buying them up in an attempt to get out of Cyprus.

    Regarding other assets – I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again, I’m going for equities this year. Look at what has happened in Japan and the Nikkei over the last 6 months and you’ll get an idea of what is coming to the UK when Carney takes over at the BoE.

  • #91420
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    It’s a good time to be a developer in Spain if you have cash and know what you are doing. There is hardly any competition and you can now offer a superior product at a better price than anything built in the boom.

    Mark

    Your whole post here is truly bizarre and I’m having a hard time trying to understand it. The only conclusion I can come up with is that being in the business yourself, you’re simply trying to ‘talk it up’ because there cannot be any other reason for advising anyone with even half a braincell to be investing in property in Spain right now let alone ‘off plan’!

    Off plan? Are you stark raving bonkers?

    Why would anyone in their right mind even consider buying anything that hasn’t yet been built, given the sheer number of developers that have done tits up, the dearth of financing available, the experience of thousands who have bought off plan and are still waiting to get their money back and the millions of empty properties littering Spain?

    Some of the reasons you give are solid, money in the bank isn’t making anything, there is a chance of a Spanish bank account levy, other commodities are rising, Spanish property prices are attractive, but none of these reasons point to buying off plan, they all point to buying one that’s already built and negotiating a decent price.

    And you can’t try and tell me with any sincerity there aren’t any decent properties worth buying amongst the millions of unsold ones that merit the risks involved in buying off plan!

  • #91414
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @zenkarma wrote:

    @mark wrote:
    It’s a good time to be a developer in Spain if you have cash and know what you are doing. There is hardly any competition and you can now offer a superior product at a better price than anything built in the boom.

    Mark

    Your whole post here is truly bizarre and I’m having a hard time trying to understand it. The only conclusion I can come up with is that being in the business yourself, you’re simply trying to ‘talk it up’ because there cannot be any other reason for advising anyone with even half a braincell to be investing in property in Spain right now let alone ‘off plan’!

    Off plan? Are you stark raving bonkers?

    Why would anyone in their right mind even consider buying anything that hasn’t yet been built, given the sheer number of developers that have done tits up, the dearth of financing available, the experience of thousands who have bought off plan and are still waiting to get their money back and the millions of empty properties littering Spain?

    Some of the reasons you give are solid, money in the bank isn’t making anything, there is a chance of a Spanish bank account levy, other commodities are rising, Spanish property prices are attractive, but none of these reasons point to buying off plan, they all point to buying one that’s already built and negotiating a decent price.

    And you can’t try and tell me with any sincerity there aren’t any decent properties worth buying amongst the millions of unsold ones that merit the risks involved in buying off plan!

    There are parts of Spain where there is still a demand to buy off plan, and where land is dirt cheap. Any developer with cash can now pick up land for maybe a third of what it cost at the peak, build on it at half the price, and sell on. There are still people out there with money. Buying off plan is attractive to many Spanish people because the payments are manageable and it is easier to get a mortgage. The downsize is that they are locking in the price up front, in what is still a falling market. So I suspect most developers are simply buying up land and sitting on it.

  • #91411
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    Buying off plan is attractive to many Spanish people because the payments are manageable and it is easier to get a mortgage.

    Erm…

    How is it easier for Spanish people to get mortgages for something that hasn’t yet been built when there’s literally millions of properties sitting unsold and on banks books?

    I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy any of this nor do I think that this is in any way advantageous to the buyer. It is of course very attractive to developers who in effect get purchasers to part fund their building costs without the need for them to raise and borrow additional funding.

    I can see the attraction for developers, I cannot see it from a buyers perspective, particularly as they are shouldering some of the risk.

  • #91406
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Excuse me Zenkarma, but there are many developments selling at the mo, one I’ve mentioned recently much to the displeasure of the lemons is a complex of flats in san pedro nr Marbella where they’ve just sold 36 off plan of the 39 in the 1st phase before laying a brick. There is now a waiting list for the 2nd and 3rd phase whilst Taylor Woodrow (the developer) take their time and let the potential buyers stew in their frenzied state ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ whilst the moaning minnies congratulate themselves on the demise of the spanish property market on the coasts, the brave are snapping up bargains in the best locations – ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #91404
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Ubeda, you’ve been eating too much ‘Durian’ ๐Ÿ˜† , you can’t even provide links to the ‘loads of French buying Marbella property you boasted about’, I’m fairly confident that ZK would ask you to back your comments up with ‘facts’ too.

    As for Taylor Woodrow, it was only a few months ago a post on here from Mark said something like ‘the Russians were the biggest group of buyers of Spanish property’. Delving in, it was misleading, the link went to the Russians were the biggest group of buyers in ‘The Taylor Woodrow sites on the CDS’ and yes they’d bought a massive 26 properties in one year ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    It said nothing about the Costas Blanca, Brava etc just the CDS.

    2 point nothing a month, hardly enough to shift the oversupply.

    Now back to your Durian ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #91402
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    According to Ubeda, Taylor Woodrow has been selling properties like hotcakes for years….how many have they built ๐Ÿ˜† Not the prettiest developments either. Wonder what connection Ubeda has to TW :mrgreen: He certainly mentions them a lot ๐Ÿ™„

  • #91401
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @UBEDA wrote:

    Excuse me Zenkarma, but there are many developments selling at the mo…

    But that still doesn’t answer the simple question I’ve asked. Why would someone buy off plan before a brick’s been laid when there are so many millions of properties at potentially very attractive prices that remain unsold?

    And with respect 36 properties is a raindrop in an ocean of unsold properties. It represents a tiny fraction of the properties being sold.

    The only logical conclusion anyone can come to is that these properties are being purchased by lazy people with more money than sense who basically don’t care if they lose their money or not. As such it represents a pretty tiny market segment at the very extreme of the market.

  • #91400
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Zenkarma,

    I’m not bonkers, to the best of my knowledge.

    You acuse me of lying and “talking up” the market.

    Have you glanced at my blog at any time in the last 7 years? I mainly get agro for “talking down” the market. On the comments on this article someone calls me “old misery guts” In reality, both accusations are thoughtless.

    I don’t know what data you have in your possession, but I know of several projects that are selling reasonably well off-plan today. I’m not talking about hearsay. I’m talking about data. I base my opinions on what I see.

    Anyway, pray tell, what are the risks involved in buying off-plan today in Spain? I know what they are, but I wonder if you do.

    Logan, nobody sells me information. Sounds to me like your developer friend needs help, like 100% of other depressed developers in Spain today.

    I had lunch today in Barcelona’s Hotel W. There is no sign whatsoever of a recession in some parts of the Spanish economy.

  • #91374
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    God, it looks like an industrial estate with a beach :mrgreen:

  • #91365
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @zenkarma wrote:

    @chopera wrote:
    Buying off plan is attractive to many Spanish people because the payments are manageable and it is easier to get a mortgage.

    Erm…

    How is it easier for Spanish people to get mortgages for something that hasn’t yet been built when there’s literally millions of properties sitting unsold and on banks books?

    Because the developer gets the mortgage for the entire development from the bank up front. The mortgage already exists when the development is completed and the bank wants to pass it on from the developer to the buyer as swiftly as possible, so the bank is much more motivated to agree to pass the mortgage on to the buyer. The buyer has usually paid down 20% of the purchase price in “letras” (instalments) before completion anyway, thus indicating an ability to pay. There is an additional saving for the buyer in that there is no fee for taking out a new mortgage (it is just a subrogation) and usually the rate is competitive.

  • #91360
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I was today at the property show in Olympia. The Italian & Franch stands were busy. The were some lectures/workshop going on & they were really pushing Valencia as next best thing after Paella Valenciana !!!!! Sorryyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

    At the French work shop they were sugguesting that the French taxes are lower than UK. Speak to the French who work in London & go home home every week and those who cannot leave France as there is two to three years waiting list at the French schools in London.

    I had long chat with a half sensible staff of Sabadell & raised issues about 902 telephone number on site, lack of reply to email, information like M2, floor level, service charges etc. She said to me & against all my cynicism gave her the benefit of doubt. She basically summed up in

    a) The demand for prospective buyers is so great that they just cant cope.
    b) Lack of trained staff as they are Bankers and not estate agents.
    c) Large block/s come onto their books where the developers has not even handed the keys to the apartments.
    d) Where investors are buying a whole block, they don’t reply to emails while the negotiation is going on.
    e) They don’t even list commercial properties i.e. hotels, parking, warehouses, land.
    f) She accepted lack of professionalism on the part of Banks.

  • #91355
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    You acuse me of lying and “talking up” the market.

    Now, now Mark, no-one is accusing you of anything.

    I’m merely expressing disbelief that property buyers in Spain would or should be attracted to buying off plan property. The advantages for doing so in a rising market are obvious – you can negotiate a decent discount off the price of the property in lieu of part-funding the developer and shouldering some of the risks.

    However, in a down-turned market those advantages no longer hold true, supply well outstrips demand and that means in many cases a better discount can be negotiated without having to shoulder any risk or having any ‘sunk’ money for substantial periods of time.

    @mark wrote:

    I don’t know what data you have in your possession, but I know of several projects that are selling reasonably well off-plan today. I’m not talking about hearsay. I’m talking about data. I base my opinions on what I see.

    I’m not looking at ‘data’. I’m using common sense that dictates in a down turned market buying off plan is not necessarily a sensible thing to do! However, as I said previously, no doubt the people buying these off-plan developments have plenty of money and don’t want the hassle of looking for the right place and negotiating discounts they just want glitzy sales brochures and a sign on the dotted line.

    I didn’t say there wern’t plenty of people will lots of money about, I merely said, buying off-plan doesn’t represent a particularly good deal in todays Spanish property market.

    @mark wrote:

    Anyway, pray tell, what are the risks involved in buying off-plan today in Spain? I know what they are, but I wonder if you do.

    Well for me, it would be the obvious one plus the one I mentioned earlier. The discounts aren’t as good in comparison to pre-existing properties and there’s always the possibility the developer can go bankrupt and the development not get completed. No doubt you’ll point to guarantee schemes now being in place to prevent that from happening, try telling that to the thousands of people who’ve lost money on buying pre-plans and still can’t get their money back.

    I don’t trust Spanish developers, bankers and politicians further than I can push them off a cliff.

  • #91353
    Profile photo of zenkarma
    zenkarma
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    Because the developer gets the mortgage for the entire development from the bank up front. The mortgage already exists when the development is completed and the bank wants to pass it on from the developer to the buyer as swiftly as possible, so the bank is much more motivated to agree to pass the mortgage on to the buyer. The buyer has usually paid down 20% of the purchase price in “letras” (instalments) before completion anyway, thus indicating an ability to pay. There is an additional saving for the buyer in that there is no fee for taking out a new mortgage (it is just a subrogation) and usually the rate is competitive.

    Which proves the Spanish have learnt absolutely nothing about the last 10 years.

    Not only have they got millions of unsold properties on the market, thousands of incomplete developments, they’re actually building more and making it easier for people to buy them with mortgage borrowing.

    Madness.

    They deserve the crisis they’re in, they’ve learnt nothing.

  • #91338
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Mark, you can go to more or less any recession hit country in the World, especially their Cities, and you can use the same analogy ‘no sign of a recession here’, commerce has to go on, Bankers are still plying their trade, you will see the wealthy or relatively well heeled enjoying life still unaffected by recession. Spain and the Eurozone are still in trouble ๐Ÿ™„

    We will be in Malaga and Marbella next week, we will hardly see any signs of recession, the new roads around Malaga will be smooth, the chiringuitos will be busy at the Malaga end (for business men/women), La Canada will have shoppers, however, the same cranes and skeletal buildings will be on unfinished urbanisations as they were years ago, the many Se Vende signs will be there as always. Our friends say the same, no sign of a recession here, yet their property has halved in value, and they can’t sell in order to move back to the UK. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    Life goes on ๐Ÿ™„

  • #91339
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @zenkarma wrote:

    @chopera wrote:
    Because the developer gets the mortgage for the entire development from the bank up front. The mortgage already exists when the development is completed and the bank wants to pass it on from the developer to the buyer as swiftly as possible, so the bank is much more motivated to agree to pass the mortgage on to the buyer. The buyer has usually paid down 20% of the purchase price in “letras” (instalments) before completion anyway, thus indicating an ability to pay. There is an additional saving for the buyer in that there is no fee for taking out a new mortgage (it is just a subrogation) and usually the rate is competitive.

    Which proves the Spanish have learnt absolutely nothing about the last 10 years.

    Not only have they got millions of unsold properties on the market, thousands of incomplete developments, they’re actually building more and making it easier for people to buy them with mortgage borrowing.

    Madness.

    They deserve the crisis they’re in, they’ve learnt nothing.

    Most of the mass developments that haven’t been sold now need to be bulldozed, used as social housing, turned into disaster movie sets, whatever. The point is, they no longer form part of the Spanish property market. They sit there as a statistic, and those who like statistics but refuse to see through them seem blind to the fact that thousands of empty apartments in the middle of nowhere, and which nobody wants to buy have no effect on the market whatsoever. If they suddenly vaporised into nothing it would have no effect on Spanish property prices. People need to forget about them.

    However if you look at areas where people actually want to live, where there are jobs, decent schools, transport connections, etc, then there may well be opportunities for cash rich developers. Maybe not to build right now, but at least to buy up land while its cheap. I’m talking about prime areas in the centre of cities that should see the effects of any upturn in the economy first. If you look at the outskirts of cities then yes, you have to be careful, because as soon as any demand becomes apparent, they’ll start building like mad and create the usual oversupply, egged on by over-zealous councils desperate for the additional revenue that comes with property.

  • #91334
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Why would anyone in their right mind even consider buying anything that hasn’t yet been built

    Back in the early 90s, when unemployment levels were equally as bad, a friend I knew from Nottingham moved to Valencia to marry his Spanish girlfriend. After getting a job with a major supplier to Ford, they bought a place off-plan. It seemed strange to me, as it does now, but it is fairly commonplace in Spain.
    Incidentally, so far as they’ve told me, they are both in work still, and have no plans to move away as it would disrupt their children’s education. Must be a lot harder knowing what to do if they hadn’t held onto their jobs (he’s in a well-paid IT role, she’s in education but not so well paid).

  • #91335
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:

    Why would anyone in their right mind even consider buying anything that hasn’t yet been built

    Back in the early 90s, when unemployment levels were equally as bad, a friend I knew from Nottingham moved to Valencia to marry his Spanish girlfriend. After getting a job with a major supplier to Ford, they bought a place off-plan. It seemed strange to me, as it does now, but it is fairly commonplace in Spain.
    Incidentally, so far as they’ve told me, they are both in work still, and have no plans to move away as it would disrupt their children’s education. Must be a lot harder knowing what to do if they hadn’t held onto their jobs (he’s in a well-paid IT role, she’s in education but not so well paid).

    We bought our first flat off-plan in 2004. It cost โ‚ฌ265k and we didn’t have the โ‚ฌ80k cash available that we’d need for buying a similarly priced second hand flat. However we were able to put down about โ‚ฌ40k up front between us and pay the rest in 24 monthly instalments while it was being built. In those days we also got the tax rebate (“desgravaciรณn”) on the down payments even though we hadn’t completed the purchase. It was the only we we could buy a decent flat in a decent area in Madrid.

    Also many young Spanish people are uncouraged to buy flats off plan because the government subsidises their mortgages (i.e. it bribes them) on certain designated developments (“pisos de protecciรณn”)

  • #91331
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Here is an example of a typical “piso de protecciรณn” that appears to be selling in Madrid:

    http://www.idealista.com/obra-nueva/270855/

    I’m not surprised that there’s demand for a โ‚ฌ180k, 2 bed flat with garage and pool on a new development in the north of Madrid.

    More upmarket one’s that seem to be selling in the same area are these:

    http://www.idealista.com/obra-nueva/179133/

    They have been on the market for a few years (I have been following them) and now there are only 3 left:

    http://www.tucasaenvaldebebas.com/vivienda-libre/promociones-en-curso/residencial-auriga/viviendas-disponibles.html

    The above links are cooperativas (I mentioned them earlier in this thread)

    Here is another one in a more central Madrid location that also appears to be selling:

    http://cooperativaeai310.wordpress.com/

  • #91332
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @zenkarma wrote:

    @mark wrote:
    Anyway, pray tell, what are the risks involved in buying off-plan today in Spain? I know what they are, but I wonder if you do.

    Well for me, it would be the obvious one plus the one I mentioned earlier. The discounts aren’t as good in comparison to pre-existing properties and there’s always the possibility the developer can go bankrupt and the development not get completed. No doubt you’ll point to guarantee schemes now being in place to prevent that from happening, try telling that to the thousands of people who’ve lost money on buying pre-plans and still can’t get their money back.

    I don’t trust Spanish developers, bankers and politicians further than I can push them off a cliff.

    I understand your mistrust.

    I’m not arguing that everyone should pile back into off-plan investing. Anyway, to all intents and purposes the new development industry no longer exists. Planning approvals are down more than 95pc. The industry has basically collapsed. Which is not to say you can’t sell a new project off-plan today in Spain if you know what you are doing and get your marketing mix right. I’ve seen it done.

    I also think it is interesting that, paradoxically, now is the safest time to buy off-plan. The most dangerous moment is at the height of the boom, when it feels safest. I love a good paradox.

    Why buy off-plan? There are some good reasons, depending on local market conditions – a crucial point . In one area I know of there is plenty on the market built during the boom, but it was never well specified or well built, and it is already dated. Buy off-plan today and you might get a better, brand new product delivered in a couple of years time when things might have improved, and the payment plan is attractive. It will suit some people – a niche.

    Anyone starting a new project today – which is hardly anyone – has the financing in place to finish the job.

  • #91323
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @chopera: Can you please explain what is the defination of ” Pisos de proteccion” & “Cooperativas” means ?? Sorry if you had already had done this .

    What is the implication between the two in the secondary market ???

  • #91321
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I’ve previously said that IMO, only small new (less than 10 units) developments of high spec. finish, priced sensibly in best locations might have a chance in this market, must have good customer choices too. All paper work and guarantees have to be in place too. Trouble is they will out-date what’s on the market now. It works for us when we buy UK property so could work in Spain and elsewhere, a niche market could be one way forward ๐Ÿ™„

    I think the old days of pile em high but sell them expensive instead of cheap, we’ve got 100’s queuing including our Directors and staff, sales hype, are over for a long time. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #91317
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I won’t be as kind as you Angie. Frankly I think the whole concept of this thread is bullshit ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #91319
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    They are cash rich & sitting on mountain of cash. Once this money is released into the system all hell will let loose in terms of activity and pushing inflation.

  • #91320
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    @chopera: Can you please explain what is the defination of ” Pisos de proteccion” & “Cooperativas” means ?? Sorry if you had already had done this .

    What is the implication between the two in the secondary market ???

    Pisos de protecciรณn come in various flavours, depending on people’s income. I can’t be bothered to look up the details but people under 35 and on low incomes can buy subsidised new flats (the subsidy effectively going to the developer of course). If they take possession they are not allowed to sell them for something like 30 years I think, or sublet them (of course many people do just that). They’re not really relevant to this forum, but an example of how many Spanish people buy off plan. They have no effect on the secondary market.

    Cooperativas are more interesting, because they allow groups of private investors to collectively buy up land and build on it at cost.

    This is a good example:

    http://cooperativaeai310.wordpress.com/

    It’s a group of people who are trying to buy a plot of land currently occupied by old government buildings in the highly desirable Chamartรญn area of Madrid. The drawback with this one is that they can’t get finance to buy the land, so the government is offering to sell it in installments. But all the same, to buy into this cooperativa (and effectively become a shareholder) you need to put down 25% cash up front. If there are any hold ups then you may not see that cash for a very long time. Also the prices are not fixed – they are only indicative and can suddenly rise if the majority of participants decide they want an indoor swimming pool for example.

    It seems to be what people are doing in Madrid these days. Cooperativas don’t seem to be so popular on the costas but I see no reason why a few private investors couldn’t get together and buy up a plot and build a small development in a nice (and legal!) coastal area and do the same. Maybe the developers used to bribe the councillors to give them the land instead, but that ain’t so easy to do these days.

  • #91302
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I think I’m being a bit kind to Spain too katy, the ugly urban sprawls have ruined the look of Spain. My experiences of small developments have always worked for us in the UK, in fact when the market was sluggish here in the 90’s we put some money into a friend’s project and built 5 new houses but individual ones in Sussex and Kent villages. They sold so easily because they were individual and well built and had good specification.

    However, if I thought I could make money in Spain, that is the route I’d go, very small high end developments priced right, beautiful landscaping and finish, something a bit different, and with only 2 solar hot water panels which work well for us in UK.

    Where I won’t be so kind though is about that awful beach shot Mark posted in Barcelona, my advice there would be to show some of those beautiful Costa Brava beaches instead ๐Ÿ™„

  • #91307
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Where I won’t be so kind though is about that awful beach shot Mark posted in Barcelona,

    Missing the point completely…

    …if even the scruffy city beach is packed, then it shows that at least part of the tourist economy is thriving. That was Mark’s point (I believe) not that it’s a special and beautiful location to seek out. ๐Ÿ™„

    As to getting an impression as to where is busy, and where is not, this thread on Burbuja has been very interesting (is nightlife thriving or dead where you are?). Burbuja, like the Brit equivalent HPC, is filled with extreme doomsters, but it does report that central parts of Madrid and Barcelona are heaving, even though many smaller towns have really felt the crunch.

    http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/burbuja-inmobiliaria/413411-se-hundido-o-cambiado-vida-nocturna-vuestras-ciudades.html

    Ayer sabado en Madrid en las zonas de la Latina y (gin tonics a partir de 7-8 euros) PETADO y en Lavapies mas de lo mismo, tenian llenos los turnos de comida y cena… Y la mayoria gente espaรฑola, Crisis????

  • #91309
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Chill out Marcus, the beach mention was tongue in cheek, however I still would have shown those lovely beaches elsewhere even to show tourist numbers, it makes better PR ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I’ve already made the point about ‘no apparent recession’ in most Cities around recession hit countries, and said we won’t see any around Malaga and Marbella next week when we visit unless we go off-piste ๐Ÿ™„ Plus small niche development being a possibility even for Spain ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #91311
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    I think I’m being a bit kind to Spain too katy, the ugly urban sprawls have ruined the look of Spain. My experiences of small developments have always worked for us in the UK, in fact when the market was sluggish here in the 90’s we put some money into a friend’s project and built 5 new houses but individual ones in Sussex and Kent villages. They sold so easily because they were individual and well built and had good specification.

    However, if I thought I could make money in Spain, that is the route I’d go, very small high end developments priced right, beautiful landscaping and finish, something a bit different, and with only 2 solar hot water panels which work well for us in UK.

    Where I won’t be so kind though is about that awful beach shot Mark posted in Barcelona, my advice there would be to show some of those beautiful Costa Brava beaches instead ๐Ÿ™„

    Yes I’ve often driven over the downs, looked out over sussex and wondered how the hell so many houses can fit in there without them being particularly visible (except in the traffic jams of course)

    Then I think what they’d have done in Spain and I realise they’d have built loads of flats on top of the downs, right along the skyline, since they’d have the best views.

    ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ™

  • #91312
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    If that photo was taken on a weekend the majority of people would have been locals. Same as any coastal resort on Sundays, it’s a spanish pastime on good weather Sundays. Since when does a busy beach act as an economy indicator ๐Ÿ˜• It’s free ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #91314
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:

    Where I won’t be so kind though is about that awful beach shot Mark posted in Barcelona,

    Missing the point completely…

    …if even the scruffy city beach is packed, then it shows that at least part of the tourist economy is thriving. That was Mark’s point (I believe) not that it’s a special and beautiful location to seek out. ๐Ÿ™„

    As to getting an impression as to where is busy, and where is not, this thread on Burbuja has been very interesting (is nightlife thriving or dead where you are?). Burbuja, like the Brit equivalent HPC, is filled with extreme doomsters, but it does report that central parts of Madrid and Barcelona are heaving, even though many smaller towns have really felt the crunch.

    http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/burbuja-inmobiliaria/413411-se-hundido-o-cambiado-vida-nocturna-vuestras-ciudades.html

    Ayer sabado en Madrid en las zonas de la Latina y (gin tonics a partir de 7-8 euros) PETADO y en Lavapies mas de lo mismo, tenian llenos los turnos de comida y cena… Y la mayoria gente espaรฑola, Crisis????

    Been a while since I went out in the centre of Madrid, but there are a few reasons why I think the centre might appear to be heaving right now: 1 – we just had our first warm weekend this year so everyone went out 2 – the Spanish don’t actually have to spend that much to go out, they can go out with โ‚ฌ10, have a few drinks on the terrazas, wander round a bit, and then go home. So lots of people on the streets does not necessarily equate to lost of people spending lots of money 3) If lots of bars have closed down then it’s logical that the remaining one’s will get more customers, even if slightly fewer people are going out.

    I went out in the centre of Madrid a few times at the end of last year and places like Santa Ana did seem emptier, but that might have been due to the time of year.

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