Move from Southern France to Valencia Region

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This topic contains 61 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of peterhun peterhun 5 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #56056
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi all,

    having taken time to read a lot of what poeple have posted on these forums I thought that I may be able to tap into the information you hold.

    We are a young family currently living an hour form the Spanish Border in South West France.

    We have been here from 2002 and have three children aged 2, 6 and 8 years old.

    Having gone through the honey moon period of living here a long while ago, we are concerned on a number of levels for our children’s future and ours.

    It could be that it is just this region of France, however there is an alarming lack of responsibility or guidance for the children and young people here. The facilities at teen age level are poor, the schooling is hit and miss.

    This is a current reflection of many of the people living here, no real interest in their children/family, life seems to be about going and doing the daily functions and culture/music/entertainment is very much aged at the 50-70’s ( no offence intended to anyone from this age bracket).

    Valencia has a very good international school and I like the thought behind there way of schooling – providing a good ansd sound moral base as well as good education.

    My experience from working with various suppliers of building materials – from Figueres to Castellon, has always been one of professionalism and courtesy.

    I have also seen the importance of family and respect in young people and as for the culture, music etc its the difference between night and day.

    So having prattled on enough about my reasons for moving and also the fact that the cost of living would be min 25% less than here, here are a few q’s

    Am I being naive re the general feel?
    Are there any parents out there who could shed some light on my thoughts
    Does using a good solicitor ( if needs be English) provide real security when buying?
    To follow that is ther a 100% safe way of buying in Spain.
    What are the best search portals to use – I am using kyero and fotocasa.

    Thanks in Advance

    Andrzej

  • #102327
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I hate to admit that France would be a much better choice & probebly the safest system of buying. I find the facilties in the Cote Azur second to none irrespective of age.

  • #102331
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks but that is not an area to bring up kids and I dont want to learn Russian as a second language – lol, I have worked there on a number of occasions and have found it highly over rated, living off its reputation and stupidly expensive

  • #102338
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ok, in that case learn Chinese in Valencia.

  • #102341
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    So having prattled on enough about my reasons for moving and also the fact that the cost of living would be min 25% less than here, here are a few q’s

    Am I being naive re the general feel?
    Are there any parents out there who could shed some light on my thoughts
    Does using a good solicitor ( if needs be English) provide real security when buying?
    To follow that is ther a 100% safe way of buying in Spain.
    What are the best search portals to use – I am using kyero and fotocasa.

    Thanks in Advance

    Andrzej

    Are you talking Valencia city, or province?
    As a parent in Barcelona all I can say is that private schooling is fantastic at a fraction of what it would cost in the UK.
    With a good solicitor like Juan Bertomeu (Denia) you can buy safely. Just don’t buy in rural areas thanks to the land grab laws, or right on the beach (Ley de Costas). In Valencia city check the urban plan before buying – there are big projects underway.
    In Valencia city use idealista.com and fotocasa. In more touristy areas Kyero should be good too.

    There is a lot of grumbling in this forum, but there are also a lot of very happy expats in Spain. Always improtant to have the funds, and not rely on assumptions about earnings in Spain, which might never materialise.

    I love going to the South of France for weekends (just a few hours drive) but wouldn’t want to live anwyere but Spain. For all its faults, it’s a wonderful country.

    Mark

  • #102343
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I have lived in France and Spain for a considerable number of years, more than I care to think about. I have and continue to be in business in Spain but never in France where I currently live. The country is just not business friendly.
    I sympathise with you about the education system in France, it’s awful and very narrow. The arts hardly get a look in and it often seems to me that the principal aim of the French education system is to just churn out budding civil servants.
    At the international school in Valencia the education for your children will be much broader based and beneficial to any bright child. I completely understand your ambitions.
    However, moving to Spain at the moment is fraught with difficulty.
    Have you considered how you will earn a living? Spain is on it’s knees economically right now and starting a new business will be uncertain to say the least.
    There is no safe way to buy property in Spain. Even using an English speaking lawyer does not guarantee a trouble free purchase.
    However having said than thousands do buy without problems. What you need is a great deal of luck.
    You need to do your homework on the ground. My advice is rent for at least a year on an area where you want to buy. Then do research locally. You will soon discover who to trust and who not.
    France is a very regulated country. Spain is not. It’s a bit like the ‘wild west’ even though it’s an integrated EU state. Institutions and business in France have to comply with a huge number of procedures which are closely supervised by the state. Nothing such as that happens in Spain. You will be on your own in a thriving black economy.
    Spain is a cheaper place to live than France, free healthcare, relatively lax tax system and the state does not constantly have it’s hand in your pocket
    You cannot find a property successfully using internet portals. You need to be on the ground. There is so much bull shit and hyperbole to wade through, you will end up making costly errors.
    Spain and France are both great places to live. France for me is better but I would not like to bring up a young family here or make a living.
    Good luck with your choice. You will need it.

  • #102345
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    katy
    Spectator

    Good advice from Logan, rent first. Madness to buy in an area you don’t know. So you look on the internet…how do you know what the area is like, every town in the world has rough areas.

    As for Spanish education, it is stifling, lot of work from textbooks and just cramming. Many private schools are linked to the Church. On the CDS many Spanish (who can afford to) are sending their children to the international schools which offer bi-lingual courses.

  • #102346
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, rent first is the best way forward.

    A young family like you I would always recommend renting for 6 months to a year before making a purchase decision.

    Retirees I would recommend renting full stop.

  • #102349
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I myself went to school in spain and in the uk. I loved being brought up in spain, especially my teenage years as it is more of an outdoor life what with the pools and beaches, where as when we moved back to the uk when my sister turned to her teenage years she did not know what to do with herself as there is no where to go for free in the uk. And its always cold and raining.
    She hated coming back to the uk to be honest and I personally would have hated being a teenager in the uk.
    I moved back to spain and we had children, they went to spanish school. The fees were really low compared to the uk so we went for private. The school was great, the only thing I didn’t like was the fact that they were forced to do everything in catalan (as I was at school) and only one spanish lesson, so they mainly spoke catalan, which I found to be quite narrow minded as we were in spain after all, but that was just my opinion.
    We are now back in the uk and my kids go to a village school which is really good and the children are all nice. The only reason I came back is because I was worried about their future in Spain. It was great to be out and about with your friends in Spain but when you left school there was not much career wise going on. But that was mainly down to the fact that we were living in a beach resort. I find there is more culture in the uk, it is more up to date with everything where as Spain is very behind. I will always be split between the 2 countries but I would advise you not to live too far from a large city as when your children do leave school they will find it hard to start a career in a beach resort or similar. The only jobs you can get is bar work so not much of a great career for them unless they start their own business as I ended up doing, or I too would have ended up being a waitress working only 6 months a year and then unemployed in the winter, which can be quite a depressing prospect. Definetely would advise 100% you to rent first. If you don’t you are mad, you can never know what an area is like until you have lived there. All the best.

  • #102364
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    All very positive:

    My idea has been to move to the area and rent for six months – so this has been great to get the same advice from many of you.

    I have touched base with Caxton College and will be going down there in March to sepnd a few days and get a feel for the school and also spend a few weeks in the area ( outside of the Fallas)

    Spoke with Martin Hayes of Proveda Hayes – solictors yesterday and recieved some good advice there as well. Martin also is the honorary British consul there.

    Yes Logan – France needs a massive shake up, as people are just not awake.

    Mark – that’s what I have picked up re schooling.

    Will keep this updated.

    The kids have flown in French learning so the international school – I hope would be a new experience.

  • #102367
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Re Employment

    I have a pension so that side of things is not an issue and if we decide to buy we can buy cash so that also makes things a lot easier.

    Thanks Mark for idealista.com – loads more properties that I had not located previously.

    The contemporary architecture is so refreshing.

    On the buying process is there a norm re putting in offers – ie where would you go in at – 10 – 20- 30 percent less than asking.

    In France it never was an issue – one would state that you could move quickly had cash and then go in as much as 50% less than asking.
    This was back in 2002 and 2003 and as such those days are passed, however when you properties have been reduced by between 40 and 50 percent, one starts to ponder.

  • #102371
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    Re Employment

    I have a pension so that side of things is not an issue and if we decide to buy we can buy cash so that also makes things a lot easier.

    Thanks Mark for idealista.com – loads more properties that I had not located previously.

    The contemporary architecture is so refreshing.

    On the buying process is there a norm re putting in offers – ie where would you go in at – 10 – 20- 30 percent less than asking.

    In France it never was an issue – one would state that you could move quickly had cash and then go in as much as 50% less than asking.
    This was back in 2002 and 2003 and as such those days are passed, however when you properties have been reduced by between 40 and 50 percent, one starts to ponder.

    With regards to the asking price, check what the other properties are selling for in the same area with the same spec, if any have sold of course.
    Just going in with a 30% less than the asking price offer would be offensive (even laughable) to most sellers and they would not even contemplate it.
    I personally would start with 15% less than the asking price, knowing that this will probably be rejected but this would be a starting point and you would then probably end up meeting half way. I would say 20 to 30% below asking price is way too low and I would probably be offended if someone came in with that sort of an offer. Mostly, you would most probably end up buying at about 10% below the asking price, but that could vary from seller to seller. But I am sure most of the buyers on here would disagree.
    I think an agent would be your best bet to answer this question as they know at what percentage below asking price buyers are coming in at.
    If you do find something and put in an offer, please do let us know how you get on and what response you get.

  • #102372
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    katy
    Spectator

    Difficult to say how much a seller will come down. Perhaps they may have already substantially reduced. Some will not budge from the asking price even if they don’t sell. Helps if you know a persons circumstances. You could try 20% less, if they want a sale they will get back to you, even if a higher price.

  • #102373
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    May I ask – what experience you have in buying property in Spain – I ask as obviously the approach to uk purchases and French purchases are very very different.
    I very much understand your thoughts re not offending someone, however looking at the vast variation in prices in the Valencia city area, the number of discounted properties on Kyero and also the feeling that property is still over valued, I would think that 10 percent was a very conservative amount.
    when you see things like this
    http://www.kyero.com/property/357464-villa-for-sale-valencia

    the same property is actually a further 80k less on another site – so from 700k to 278k!!!

    Its not the only one.

    it is massively under value to the local m2 value of other property

  • #102374
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    having also read your post Kev:
    “Speaking to a Spanish property expert at ground level, a successful estate agent with his feet firmly on Spanish soil, he predicts a 30% decline in property values this year”
    I am surprised you would only go in at 15% less.

  • #102375
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well, I have lived in spain most of my life and know a lot of business people who have worked and work in the property industry who keep me updated on a regular basis. Obviously the market is very different now to what it was a couple of years back when you would not even get away with a 2% discount off the asking price in Spain. Now however there is room for negotiation, but most sellers have discounted heavily already as some estate agents won’t even bother marketing your property if your asking price is ridiculously high. Not many sellers, if any, would put their property on a website at a price expecting to sell at 50% below the asking price unless they are in reposession proceedings. So Katy is right in saying that it would be helpful to know the vendors situation. I am currently selling my property and if someone offered me 30% below the asking price I would not even bother getting back to them as I would assume they are just time wasters. If I had to sell below this mark I would hang on and continue with holiday rentals for a couple of years until things picked up. Banks are trying to help distressed sellers now with offering interest only mortgages for a couple of years and that coupled with the possibility of renting your property out takes the pressure off a lot of sellers, so some will not even budge from the asking price and just wait. But it varies a lot depending on the sellers current situation. I would think around 10 – 15% below the asking price is a good deal, but obviously check out what others are on for or even better have sold for so you can get a better idea, as most estate agents don’t even know themselves what the true value is of most properties on the market and can only gauge prices from what has sold in the past year and at what price.

  • #102376
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    having also read your post Kev:
    “Speaking to a Spanish property expert at ground level, a successful estate agent with his feet firmly on Spanish soil, he predicts a 30% decline in property values this year”
    I am surprised you would only go in at 15% less.

    As I just said in my last post, it depends on the current situation of the seller, I know of around 20 sellers and every single one of them has said they would rather hang in there and rent out their property for a couple of years rather than drop below around 15%. You can try to go in at any offer you wish, but you would probably get a no at 30%, that I personally believe is way too low. If you are looking at that sort of a discount your best bet would be to wait to see what happens with the market, but you may be in for a long wait as the drop in prices will be gradual.
    Plus it depends on whether you are looking at a prime location or not. The ones in the prime locations will definetely not drop to that level. These properties can definetely rent for good money so the seller would have no need to drop to that amount. If you are not bothered about the location then you may have more luck.

    I would just like to add that if a seller, like myself has already discounted their property by 35% from 2007 prices, it would be madness for them to drop another 30% as this would mean their property is 65% below market value. So you really need to know by what amount the property has been discounted already before you put in an offer.

  • #102377
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for that, its always difficult when you are in a selling situation yourself. We had our property on the market a few years ago in France at 750k – which was seen as a conservative amount – we had an offer of 720k and did not take it.

    Thoughts of selling for 20 or 30 percent less was never in our minds.

    Being in the situation of selling for nearly thirty percent less, you have to make that call – are price going to continue to go down – do you take advantage of a location which is hurting more than yours etc.

    In the big scheme of things I have spoken with people in the uk who now that the value of their propties have dropped by up to 40% of the values they were four years ago – however they are willing to sit for another ten years to see how things go.

    The factor also is that there are lot more people with 100 or 200k, then 500k to buy properties.

    Yes early days, will see how things develop and will post the results of viewings, offers in the future and also views of notaries/ lawyers in the area, on recent completed sales – re asking prices and selling prices.

  • #102378
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    Anonymous
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    The link I posted was for a property 10 mins from the centre of Valencia – and I was surprised as to how many more were listed – the benefit with kyero is also that you can see how long these properties are on there.
    Of the poeple that you know – how many bought at the peak- or close to it – as obviously that would be a big factor as well.

  • #102379
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    Thanks for that, its always difficult when you are in a selling situation yourself. We had our property on the market a few years ago in France at 750k – which was seen as a conservative amount – we had an offer of 720k and did not take it.

    Thoughts of selling for 20 or 30 percent less was never in our minds.

    Being in the situation of selling for nearly thirty percent less, you have to make that call – are price going to continue to go down – do you take advantage of a location which is hurting more than yours etc.

    In the big scheme of things I have spoken with people in the uk who now that the value of their propties have dropped by up to 40% of the values they were four years ago – however they are willing to sit for another ten years to see how things go.

    The factor also is that there are lot more people with 100 or 200k, then 500k to buy properties.

    Yes early days, will see how things develop and will post the results of viewings, offers in the future and also views of notaries/ lawyers in the area, on recent completed sales – re asking prices and selling prices.

    As I just said, I have already dropped mine by 35% so I would not even consider another 30% drop. But my property is in a good location and rents out really well. I would rather sell though as I just don’t have the time to invest in the holiday rental side of things that I used to, but I will continue renting if I have no choice. But a lot of sellers like myself with properties in good locations have already dropped in price to keep in line with the market. So if I were you, I would rent for the 6 months or longer if necessary until you can get a better idea of the asking prices and you will then see if you can approach a seller with a 30% drop in price. But ones in good locations will be more difficult to achieve that drop in price, unless the seller is a distressed seller…

  • #102380
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks
    Its a difficult time – the property oppositte our own – be it hlaf the size rents out at 2k a week from may through sept, but like you – its an avenue I would not like to take.

    Lets see what the future brings.

  • #102381
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    The link I posted was for a property 10 mins from the centre of Valencia – and I was surprised as to how many more were listed – the benefit with kyero is also that you can see how long these properties are on there.
    Of the poeple that you know – how many bought at the peak- or close to it – as obviously that would be a big factor as well.

    Well me personally, I purchased just before the peak and at a heavily discounted price as it needed renovating so I could afford the 30% drop. And most of the others I know did buy in the peak. But this is the problem you are up against right now. You need to know the situation of the current vendor as every sellers circumstances are different. Most of these people have used the carencia on their mortgage, which is where the bank allows you to only pay interest for a couple of years, so this almost halves your mortgage payments so if you rent you can cover the cost. So with sellers like that you would stand no chance of them reducing further as they could just rent.
    Most of the sellers I know have their properties in prime locations, some with sea views so they will definetely rent rather than drop the price, because they rent so easily.
    The ones I know down the back streets will probably have to accept lower offers as they struggle trying to rent. There are a couple who live in the property they are trying to sell, but have managed to sort out the carencia so they are going to hang in there until that runs out. Every seller is in a different situation….

  • #102382
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    Thanks
    Its a difficult time – the property oppositte our own – be it hlaf the size rents out at 2k a week from may through sept, but like you – its an avenue I would not like to take.

    Lets see what the future brings.

    To be honest, I love doing the holiday rentals, but with children and running a business I am way too busy but will persevere until it sells. I have had 3 viewings this year so far and one of them is coming back for a second viewing so who know what will happen. But it is whether the banks can give out such a high mortgage, only cash buyers can afford the larger properties right now. Or ones with a hefty deposit. I will also keep you posted and good luck with your ventures.

  • #102383
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    logan
    Participant

    Offending people should not be an issue. It’s business. I have been buying and selling property in Spain for almost 30 years. Be ruthless. For example I have offered 70% less on repossessed property to banks. Admittedly for multiples. All last year they turned me down after protracted negotiations. Now they want to play. This time I’ve turned them down. The markets too risky.
    Point is in this market you can offer almost anything. It depends on the amount of debt the property carries. If I were you I would start with the banks portfolios and if anything goes wrong you have some comeback.

  • #102384
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Talking of how low you go in making an offer, this will interest you.

    According to a recent article in the El Mundo newspaper, quoting Moises Sansaloni of the Valencia real estate agents’ college, vendors in Valencia city and province end up accepting offers 21.6pc below their original asking price. That’s 21.6pc on average, meaning many transactions are lower than that.

    http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2011/01/05/0287102-los-precios-finales-de-venta-bajan-un-21-6-de-media-respecto-al-anuncio-dicen-los-apis-valenciano

    http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2011/01/04/suvivienda/1294159846.html

    It’s not just about how low you go in. The way you go about it is also important. You have to be a good negotiator.

  • #102208
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Offending people should not be an issue. It’s business. I have been buying and selling property in Spain for almost 30 years. Be ruthless. For example I have offered 70% less on repossessed property to banks. Admittedly for multiples. All last year they turned me down after protracted negotiations. Now they want to play. This time I’ve turned them down. The markets too risky.
    Point is in this market you can offer almost anything. It depends on the amount of debt the property carries. If I were you I would start with the banks portfolios and if anything goes wrong you have some comeback.

    …70% below asking price…you might get that with a repo bank, but you would only get a load of crap with that sort of an offer…no one with a property in a decent location would accept that, you might as well just get repossessed.
    So I certainly would not be that ruthless. It happened here in the uk where people were going in with silly offers and the estate agents don’t budge to that amount, you might get the odd one…but it is spotting the odd one… it depends how much you want the property you are putting the offer in for..
    Try your luck and let us know how you get on… Then we will all have the answers…At least it is a sign that people are starting to buy, this is what gets the market moving after all!

  • #102387
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    peterhun
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    May I ask – what experience you have in buying property in Spain – I ask as obviously the approach to uk purchases and French purchases are very very different.
    I very much understand your thoughts re not offending someone, however looking at the vast variation in prices in the Valencia city area, the number of discounted properties on Kyero and also the feeling that property is still over valued, I would think that 10 percent was a very conservative amount.

    He is a vendor trying to sell his property. Go ahead and be as offensive as you like, its no more offensive than vendors ‘demanding’ high prices. Spain is full of offensive vendors advertising their properties at inflated prices.

    Just bear in mind that the average time span to sell in Marbella, for instance, is over eight years and over five years in many other places. There as over 1.5 million unsold properties in Spain. Vendors will be desperate.

  • #102389
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    katy
    Spectator

    Ethkatnev I think you have made some very good points in the above posts (too many to mention 🙂 ) I know many who would like to sell but don’t need to until the time is right. The Costas are different, not everyone is desperate to sell. I know someone who has a holiday home on sale, they paid £25,000 for it yonks ago. It is really nice, all modern, great position. Been on sale 2 years+ at 225,000, probably worth about 140,000, they have no intention of reducing!

    As for internet browsing, there is no way to tell what is a bargain if you do not know the area. Also many websites have property on that has already been sold, don’t exist etc. Real bargains in good areas would never get as far as a web portal in most cases.

  • #102390
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    peterhun
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Ethkatnev I think you have made some very good points in the above posts (too many to mention 🙂 ) I know many who would like to sell but don’t need to until the time is right. The Costas are different, not everyone is desperate to sell. I know someone who has a holiday home on sale, they paid £25,000 for it yonks ago. It is really nice, all modern, great position. Been on sale 2 years+ at 225,000, probably worth about 140,000, they have no intention of reducing!

    Wait until they die, their estate will sell it or they have to return to their home country. Thats how it will end for many of the properties, waiting many years before a force sale. With the abundance of excess stock people who don’t need to sell, will never sell. Those sort of people are irrelevant in the property market. They are also dumb, selling up and investing the money in an appreciating asset will give a 5% return straight off with little risk as opposed to losing 5%-10% per year.

  • #102392
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    katy
    Spectator

    Yep, just happened to my Aunt. We have inherited a hassle 🙁

  • #102394
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    So where do the “real bargains” get advertised if not on the web portals.

    If I was a private seller then my first chosie would be to get it onto a portal that maximises its exposure.

    Re accessing banks portfolios – how does one go about that.

  • #102395
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    Ethkatnev I think you have made some very good points in the above posts (too many to mention 🙂 ) I know many who would like to sell but don’t need to until the time is right. The Costas are different, not everyone is desperate to sell. I know someone who has a holiday home on sale, they paid £25,000 for it yonks ago. It is really nice, all modern, great position. Been on sale 2 years+ at 225,000, probably worth about 140,000, they have no intention of reducing!

    Wait until they die, their estate will sell it or they have to return to their home country. Thats how it will end for many of the properties, waiting many years before a force sale. With the abundance of excess stock people who don’t need to sell will never sell. Those sort of people are irrelevant in the property market. They are also dumb, selling up and investing the money in an appreciating asset will give a 5% return straight off with little risk as opposed to losing 5%-10% per year.

    …the same way I am a seller trying to sell, you are a buyer trying to bag a bargain, so our opinions will differ…
    You are quite right with regards to having to wait a long time, that well may happen to properties in run down unwanted locations, there are thousands of those, but if you are looking for a nice property in a good area then what you are saying is absolute rubbish!
    You may call sellers “dumb”, but what about those people who have a mortgage and would stand to spend the rest of their lives paying back the bank for something they no longer have?? when they can just rent and hang in there…now that would be a dumb thing to do….and also very unfortunate for those buyers trying to bag a well located property with a sea view…
    As I say, you can be as cheeky or as offensive as you like and see what happens….but if the seller is not distressed then they will not drop by the amounts people are quoting on here… every sellers situation is different. If you put your name down with an estate agent and every time they show you a property you are putting ridiculous offers in of over 50% below they asking price, I can assure you, you will not be getting many phone calls from the agent as they will see you as a time waster!

  • #102397
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    logan
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    …70% below asking price…!

    In this instance I was referring to 70% off original new sale price on a repossessed coastal development. In my opinion they are probably worth now only 20% of original values as a wholesale price, with legal responsibilities to complete the development. Buying new build for resale in a market without demand is either a one chance in a lifetime or a certain way to loose money and have sleepless nights. I pretty sure it’s the latter.

  • #102398
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    Re accessing banks portfolios – how does one go about that.

    All Spanish Banks have extensive on line property portfolios and sales or management departments to contact.

  • #102401
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @floatingjimi wrote:
    Re accessing banks portfolios – how does one go about that.

    All Spanish Banks have extensive on line property portfolios and sales or management departments to contact.

    Logan is quite right, you may go direct to the banks to see their extensive lines, but they will show you the crap ones that will not sell for years, you won’t even get to see the corkers as they need to offload so much rubbish first, and the discounts of the repos are probably lower than seeing the vendors direct.
    For example, here is a link to a house, this is one of many may I add…
    http://www.pisosembargados.com/
    …well, it looks like it just takes you through to the home page, but anyway, If you look under Tarragona, Salou, casas, you will see a house for sale of 400 square meters, at 838.000euros. This is a repo and the bank has discounted this, apparently for a quick sale. My property is 300 square meters and is on the market for 549.000euros ono.
    Before you all jump down my throat, this is not spam, but just an example of the “massive” discounts banks are offering for repos…not!
    There are flats on there, one for example, is 150.000 for a 1 bedroom flat down a back street in Salou…In 2007 I sold a 2 bedroom second line with a glimpse of the sea for 145.000euros….Take a look for yourselves, this is one website of many who are selling the bank repos…

  • #102403
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The banks only offer a starting point like anyone else. It’s up to you to negotiate.

  • #102404
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    So where do the “real bargains” get advertised if not on the web portals.

    If I was a private seller then my first chosie would be to get it onto a portal that maximises its exposure.

    I have mine advertised on portals and have had not one viewing. All my viewings are from someone in the bank who knows someone, or from word of mouth from estate agents….It is probably different for smaller properties, but for larger ones at a higher price, people get to hear about it from word of mouth in the local area, or the bank manager knows of someone who is looking to invest etc…
    I could quite easily remove it from the portals and still get the viewings, hence me saying that all the prime location properties get moved around between banks and estate agents and as Katy said, some don’t even get advertised…Unfortunately its who you know…

  • #102405
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    The banks only offer a starting point like anyone else. It’s up to you to negotiate.

    yeah, great starting point….2007 prices!

  • #102408
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It depends on the bank. I only deal with one or two I know and trust. Their portfolios are on average at least 30-40% below 2007 values. Often a great deal more. I am the last person to defend banks but they are the only place to go at the moment where values are realistic. Private sellers and agents are a waste of time. Most private sales have large debts and no one will sell below that. So many are in negative equity and it’s a hopeless position. The value of the mortgage usually outstrips the property value by some margin.

  • #102410
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I am looking at properties of between 300 and 500m2 lving space of contemporary architecure.
    With my eyes pretty square now – having looked at about 5-6000 in the last few days, there still is a considerable difference in prices – taking into consideration factors of location etc. We are talking of a few hundred thousand euros difference – the lowest being of 276000 and the highest of 550000.
    Where does one start – re bank portfolios – are they available on line, do they have this type of property or is it a chance item with them?

  • #102412
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    …the same way I am a seller trying to sell, you are a buyer trying to bag a bargain, so our opinions will differ…
    You are quite right with regards to having to wait a long time, that well may happen to properties in run down unwanted locations, there are thousands of those, but if you are looking for a nice property in a good area then what you are saying is absolute rubbish!
    You may call sellers “dumb”, but what about those people who have a mortgage and would stand to spend the rest of their lives paying back the bank for something they no longer have?? when they can just rent and hang in there…now that would be a dumb thing to do….and also very unfortunate for those buyers trying to bag a well located property with a sea view…
    As I say, you can be as cheeky or as offensive as you like and see what happens….but if the seller is not distressed then they will not drop by the amounts people are quoting on here… every sellers situation is different. If you put your name down with an estate agent and every time they show you a property you are putting ridiculous offers in of over 50% below they asking price, I can assure you, you will not be getting many phone calls from the agent as they will see you as a time waster!

    Well, to be sure I’m not able to buy anything until I’ve paid off my loan in Poland in 4 years. My interest is academic at present and in fact the more I hear about Spain the less I think I will ever consider it. I’ve never gone as far as to register an interest with an EA thats for sure.

    I partly agree with you on the 50% offer and the response from a vendor. 25% seems the real figures from Marks statistics, but its understandable why vendors would be reluctant as it seems a massive cut. My point is that in five years time them will fall another 25% in real terms with inflation. We are look at a long slow fall in prices over many years, the cycle is 20 years so I’d expect another eight years of falls, at even 3% inflation holding the same price will result in a 25% in real prices. Any actual cuts in nominal value will be on top of that.

    So, my point is that you can ignore the cheeky offers, but in the end those are the likely eventual selling prices for most people.

  • #102413
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    I am looking at properties of between 300 and 500m2 lving space of contemporary architecure.
    With my eyes pretty square now – having looked at about 5-6000 in the last few days, there still is a considerable difference in prices – taking into consideration factors of location etc. We are talking of a few hundred thousand euros difference – the lowest being of 276000 and the highest of 550000.
    Where does one start – re bank portfolios – are they available on line, do they have this type of property or is it a chance item with them?

    Try an offer of 150K on this if you like it.
    http://www.oportunidadescam.es/Chalet_independientes-en-Montroy-5-dormitorios/1542/vivienda_2256.html

  • #102414
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
  • #102416
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Mmm. Your idea of good value and mine seem very different.
    Good luck with your move.

  • #102417
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Im not saying they are all good value – but they are the style of property I am looking for. the one at chiva is not bad at all if you compare to local prices.
    The property you showed is just no my cup of tea

  • #102418
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The last property is twice the local value – however being beach front – they are trying for it – be interested to see what they achieve – however if I got it for 25-30% off that – I would be pleased as punch.

  • #102419
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    If you don’t know the area you don’t know what you are looking at. You need a survey too, some of the decent looking ones may be about to fall down.

  • #102420
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry Katy – did not understand your last statement, from just a few days research I have picked up that there are multiple pockets around Valenica that command less or more than their respective neighbours – as one would expect from a Major City, not as drastic as say London but more pronounced than local cities in France – re construction I am fortunate enough to have spent the last 8 years in architecture and construction.
    It will be interesting to see what – other than the obvious: supply/demand, views, infrastructure affect prices. Some make sense others – not as yet.

  • #102422
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    I mean something more like this:

    http://www.fotocasa.es/vivienda/torrent-valencia/garaje-privado-jardin-terraza-calicanto-124744687?opi=34&tti=1

    http://www.fotocasa.es/vivienda/riba-roja-de-turia/garaje-privado-jardin-terraza-trastero-piscina-cipres-n-8-chalet-nuevo-valencia-la-vella-cipres-123263174?opi=34&tti=1

    or this which is great value:

    http://www.fotocasa.es/vivienda/chiva/garaje-privado-jardin-terraza-trastero-piscina-19-124303227?opi=34&tti=1

    and this which is very very nice

    http://www.fotocasa.es/chalet-torre/sagunto-sagunt/garaje-privado-jardin-terraza-trastero-patio-playa-almarda-calle-verderol-123094543?opi=1&tti=1&pagination=3&RowGrid=12

    Nice properties, now, but I am afraid I would have to agree with Logan on this one. I don’t know anything about the area so cannot comment on that side of things, and there may be a reason why the one Logan has put on here is that low price.
    The reason I would never invest long term in the “over the top” contemporary ones, is because they are contemporary now, but 10 years down the line they look out of date and old fashion. Thats why I would always go for a more classical standard house that looks good for decades to come… you could, after all, do up the lower price one to give it a contemporary feel, ie, change the balconies to glass ones, change the paint colour etc…this is how you put value on a property after all, all you are doing with the new ones is paying a premium for someone elses work, and you don’t know their standard of work either. THAT is what I class as a good investment….just my personal view though.

  • #102424
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    The last property is twice the local value – however being beach front – they are trying for it – be interested to see what they achieve – however if I got it for 25-30% off that – I would be pleased as punch.

    Is it an illegal build? its very close to the sea.

  • #102425
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @floatingjimi wrote:
    The last property is twice the local value – however being beach front – they are trying for it – be interested to see what they achieve – however if I got it for 25-30% off that – I would be pleased as punch.

    Is it an illegal build? its very close to the sea.

    Anything within 500m of the high tide line is at risk. I saw a map of what areas of spain had been surveyed recently but didn’t save it ! It also showed the delineating measurements of what would & would not be allowed within the 500m restrictions. If memory serves me correctly within 100m is not allowed ( demolition at some point) 100-200m , highly unlikely & with severe restrictions & good chance of demolition. 200-500m , possibilities with restrictions.
    I’d have thought that it’s a candidate for demolition at some point. No one with any sense ,as the situation stands at present , should purchase anything within 500m of the high tide line.

  • #102426
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have been carrying out major renovations for the last eight years from small to very large.
    The more recent – taking old wine caves – demolishing all the wine vats etc and then creating a contempoary interior in a classic structure, in all I have renovated and managed some 40 projects.
    The best years for that have now gone – in the last three years I have spent my time keeping my hand in and helping people to realise projects as renovating to make a profit does not add up.

    Taking a tired villa and doing something with it – you are still left with the tired villa structure, I would be happy to hear that people still manage to make a proft from doing that in Spain as that would definately keep the grey matter working, the thing is that where I do not do a job at half measure i cannot see it making sense looking at what fine new property is available – does not add up.

    Some of the contempoary designs are stunning and whilst paying for someone elses work – I disagree that they will be old hat in 10 years – but the originality of the design will dictate that.

  • #102427
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Please also remember that the plan is not just to buy as a long term investment but to have a family home, and as such it needs to be firstly something that is pleasing – and with no guarantees of real return, I prefer to be living in something nice in a great location.

  • #102430
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    I have been carrying out major renovations for the last eight years from small to very large.
    The more recent – taking old wine caves – demolishing all the wine vats etc and then creating a contempoary interior in a classic structure, in all I have renovated and managed some 40 projects.
    The best years for that have now gone – in the last three years I have spent my time keeping my hand in and helping people to realise projects as renovating to make a profit does not add up.

    Taking a tired villa and doing something with it – you are still left with the tired villa structure, I would be happy to hear that people still manage to make a proft from doing that in Spain as that would definately keep the grey matter working, the thing is that where I do not do a job at half measure i cannot see it making sense looking at what fine new property is available – does not add up.

    Some of the contempoary designs are stunning and whilst paying for someone elses work – I disagree that they will be old hat in 10 years – but the originality of the design will dictate that.

    Any new builds are mostly cheap builds and botched jobs. The oldn’s are the best. What about all these victorian homes that have been sitting for years…
    In new builds you can hear the person on the loo in the next room the walls are so thin….so to be honest I completely disagree with you about the tired villa structure, we are talking about a house here, not a boat or a car!

    I have lived in a new build and would never buy one again to be honest. The old ones are so solid and well constructed.

    And I never meant for you to do it to make some money on it, but to save you some money…especially if you can do it up yourself if you are in the trade…
    The ones you are looking at are near 500.000, the older one was only 150.000, if you spent 100.000 on it, it would probably look better than the 500.000 one. I agree on the location thing though, that is the most important thing to be honest. You can change the look of a house but not the location….
    Your call though obviously, but no way are new builds better quality than the older built properties…well most of them anyway.

  • #102434
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Im not stating that the quality of consruction is better or indeed worse – its the design that I am talking about.

    Re construction if you are relating to stone then you have something – a lot with 60cm walls and most with interesting wood work as well, a shell that you can work with.

    I would rather take on a stone property with a crack – which I can stick my hand through ( and have done), than a villa or new build with signs of movement. The first has been standing for hundreds of years – if there are no other issues then there is always a solution for that. The second is a where do I start – was it built when it was too wet/dry, what conditions have caused this , is this to do with the foundations etc – what is the construction – brick or concrete block etc.

    Dont get your point re Victorian property – cold – poor insulation – requiring masses of maintenance etc.

    There are some absolutley shocking villa’s out there as there are new builds else where. They are neither conservative or really creative.

    Re build quality, I could not be so judgemental re old v new – in this case villa’s of 30 – 40 years against new.

    I have had to deal with some charming construction skills on both and in the case of the new – you can of course discuss what has been used , view materials used etc.

    The main point re value and suggestions is not missed at all Kev – I really appreciate that, indeed if you get it fo raround 150k that allows a lot of freedom re rebuild/restyle if it lends itself to that, one needs to see how it has been consctucted.

    The website was also a good one – thanks.

    p.s I have some great old cars that would I would not trade for a modern car either.

  • #102436
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Shame about that one Kev is that it is 55 mins from the school we want the kids to go to – still……

  • #102440
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    keep us posted anyway, they are good looking properties so I can see the attraction, good luck on your search!

  • #102454
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks – and may well check that one out – think it would be crazy not to.

  • #102457
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    Many thanks – and may well check that one out – think it would be crazy not to.

    Lets be clear here; you do understand that properties near the sea are illegal and as such can be demolished with very short notice (and in fact if a foreigner bails out a Spaniard from this situation it makes demolition more probable). Such properties are worthless so you should never even consider them. Also, having legal paperwork doesn’t make a property in Spain legal as the normal EU property law and rights you would expect are not applied. Even going to court in Spain doesn’t mean EU law would be upheld and the political connections or nationality of the person you are up against count for more than the law.

  • #102459
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @floatingjimi wrote:

    Many thanks – and may well check that one out – think it would be crazy not to.

    …looks like the one Logan posted has been reserved already!
    http://www.oportunidadescam.es/Chalet_independientes-en-Montroy-5-dormitorios/1542/vivienda_2256.html
    …that is the problem, although everyone disagrees on here…people are gradaully starting to look for any good bargains out there…and that was one of them, but there are probably more ones like that. Would agree with Peterhun though, don’t assume any frontlines are legal. You have to really check this out well. Where my property is based in the Costa Dorada, I have never heard of any illegal front line apartments, but everyone on here says there are tons where you are looking, so get yourself a british/spanish laywer who knows about the illegal build situation before paying any “paga y señal” , which is a deposit to reserve the property. Keep us posted…

  • #102460
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @floatingjimi wrote:
    Many thanks – and may well check that one out – think it would be crazy not to.

    Lets be clear here; you do understand that properties near the sea are illegal and as such can be demolished with very short notice (and in fact if a foreigner bails out a Spaniard from this situation it makes demolition more probable). Such properties are worthless so you should never even consider them. Also, having legal paperwork doesn’t make a property in Spain legal as the normal EU property law and rights you would expect are not applied. Even going to court in Spain doesn’t mean EU law would be upheld and the political connections or nationality of the person you are up against count for more than the law.

    The one we are talking about is not a front line apartment.

  • #102474
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @ethnatkev wrote:

    The one we are talking about is not a front line apartment.

    Ok, thanks it wasn’t clear which one he was talking about. I thought it was the contemporary house next to the beach.

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