More Economic Bad News for Spain

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This topic contains 367 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 3 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #56857
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-215310 … plans.html

    Is this why so much money has been withdrawn from Spain recently, no smoke without fire perhaps?

  • #109349
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Interesting. It would be a bitter pill to swallow for many UK taxpayers who have been cheated with their spanish property purchases if the UK were to give billions to bail out the corrupt and rotten to the core country.

  • #109354
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Very sad to see such harsh sentiments expressed about a proud and deeply cultured people and country. I count myself very lucky that I didn’t buy when I nearly did in 2007, but don’t let’s confuse the horrible mess of the property market with the fundamental values of the society. Oddly and unexpectedly I have found myself in partnership with some fine Spanish professionals in Madrid in the last year and I am quite sure the country is neither corrupt nor rotten to the core.

  • #109356
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Not sure if this has been posted already:

    http://www.channel4.com/news/future-of-euro-in … e-minister

    None of that 66.2 billion euros taken out of Spain has reached my account yet, do I pay it back if it does ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109357
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It is claimed today that if Spain has a bail-out the UK will have to fork out ยฃ5billion, that is in addition to all the other billions contributed to the fund ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

  • #109359
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    kent county council has stopped paying money into santander here in the uk until it gets reassurance that the bank will not draw on uk funds to aid its spainish opperations,this make just be them being over precautious because they got caught for 3million when iceland crashed

  • #109362
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator
  • #109367
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m a ceramic tiler like Mr Dawson and was going to sell up and go to spain in 2005 but decided i didn’t have the funds which at the time were around ยฃ400,000 i wouldn’t of even concided it with just ยฃ113,000

  • #109368
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    I’m a ceramic tiler like Mr Dawson and was going to sell up and go to spain in 2005 but decided i didn’t have the funds which at the time were around ยฃ400,000 i wouldn’t of even concided it with just ยฃ113,000

    look at where he bought. small piddly town in the middle of no where. Also notice they don’t mention what he bought for, just what he tried to sell for…

  • #109371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    @dartboy wrote:
    I’m a ceramic tiler like Mr Dawson and was going to sell up and go to spain in 2005 but decided i didn’t have the funds which at the time were around ยฃ400,000 i wouldn’t of even concided it with just ยฃ113,000

    look at where he bought. small piddly town in the middle of no where. Also notice they don’t mention what he bought for, just what he tried to sell for…

    but they did say he had a mortgauge and spent ยฃ80’000 doing it up so asuming he got it for 50,000 still left no money should something go wrong. Maybe i am just one of those people who likes to play it safe and know if it all goes wrong i will still have a roof over my head and food on the table how boring am i ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109372
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Corvera airport development Murcia put on hold (surprise surprise) according to source at Ministry of Public Works ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #109375
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/experts/artic … -dive.html

    Seems like Spanish property is still 27% overpriced (France 47%) according to the table and warnings for Brits not to purchase with current uncertainty ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109377
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    According to spanish news today 169 evictions are carried out every day throughout Spain. Either for mortgage default or rent arrears.

  • #109387
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Interesting read on http://www.goldonomic.com/real-estate/category/spain

    Says there’s ‘at least 1.5 million unfinished,unsold, or unwanted residential units in Spain, and goes on to say that the state of the Spanish property market is not fully ‘understood by real-estate brokers, agents and speculators’ nor ‘where it is headed’ ๐Ÿ™„ ‘Approach this market with extreme caution’ it goes on to say! Updated end April 2012

  • #109397
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The King of Spain sets a bad example for his countrymen and women, it beggars belief really, talk about Spanish austerity for the populus and house trapped foreigners ๐Ÿ˜ก

    http://www.care2.com/causes/spains-king-hunts- … uffer.html ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜ก

  • #109414
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This article more or less ends with the comment that ‘it would be more sensible for Spain to leave the Euro’!! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/0 … n-bailout/

    There is going to be a lot more pain in Spain to come before it is really safe to invest in methinks ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109422
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    This article has a ring of truth. Already in melt down, local town halls unable to pay their staff. Schools asking parents for donations (some schools children have to take their own toilet roll!), Pharmacists not being paid by the health authorities…can it get any worse.

  • #109429
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Britons rush to sell European Properties (if they can) ๐Ÿ™„

    However, they are generally in love with France and Italy still ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/offshorefinance/9297024/Britons-rush-sell-European-properties.html

    ‘Can it get any worse’ katy asks, well probably ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109433
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    That what Royalty does. Wheter the people are suffering or not. That why they are Royal & have placed themselves in that elevated position.

    In modern times there is no place for Royalty. Remember The British queen asked to pay for the fire at windsor castle while the Country was going through a very deep economic crises, people loosing their homes & jobs.

    Royalty has always hunted & will always do so. If the King was not heard no one would have found out.

  • #109436
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    โ— Another bad headline for Spain as Investors flee Spain!! ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.livemint.com/2012/05/30183419/Inves … inanc.html

  • #109473
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Anyone see Newsnight tonight, a report basically saying Spain can hold the Germans to ransom despite, it was said, that Spain and it’s banks are bankrupt so a bailout is pouring good money after bad ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109497
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It’s all turning into farce woould be laughable if it wasn’t so serious. They don’t want a bailout…just billions to re-finance the banks so they can piss it all away again!

  • #109551
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Interesting header here:

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-01/ma … -mortgages

    Now, no-one has to read this thread unless they think they may be affected by such headlines, who knows one of these might save them money too ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109557
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Interesting link, especially the comparison between ireland acting decisively and Spain hiding it’s head in the sand. Was it only last year that Spain announced their banks were healthy ๐Ÿ™„

    I also saw that it is easier to get a mortgage on a 200,000 bank owned property than a private owned 150,000 one with a 20% deposit. Our buyer was a spanish relative, an eye specialist so we knew what was going on behind the scenes. He only wanted to borrow 55% of the valuation yet it took at least a couple of months to raise the money and then it was from 2 banks.

  • #109561
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    no katy it was only last month they were saying they were healthy and wouldn’t need to be bailed out

  • #109564
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spain has never accepted reality. They knowingly pretend to be an Ostrich.

  • #109571
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    shakeel, that’s why I posted on the Malaga topic of yours, the denial thing by the ostrich Javier Fernandez head of Malaga Tourism, his head was so far down in the sand, it was unreal ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109596
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Continuing this theme:

    Spain does a Bill Clinton ๐Ÿ˜†

    He said ‘I did not sleep with that woman’ then later said ‘I did have a sexual relationship with that woman’

    Spain said ‘We do not need a bailout’ then later said ‘we have asked for a bailout (but could you call it a loan please so it doesn’t look bad?)’

    When Spain starts admitting the truth the Pata Negras will fly ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109599
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Did you see the Finance Minister getting a bit huffy when the Sky News reporter asked the question in english….not enough time apparently to reply in english. Lots of stuttering as well which I guess means LYING through his teeth.

  • #109600
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie. The only way to get the Ostrich head out of the sand is by inserting something up its back side. This is exactly what is required in a proverbial sense.

    @itsme. The reporter missed a trick. The whole thing was for local consumption. The minister does speak English as I beleive he was with Morgan Stanley or Lehman Bros

    Thank God for all its worth that our politicians do not have another option than to speak English ( Welsh have a choice ) on the other does it matter !! if you talk nonsense it could be in any language.

  • #109616
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It didn’t take long for the Greeks to react angrily to Spain’s bailout! :mrgreen: Probably make them more likely to vote for the Syriza Party and if so they will likely exit the Euro starting the whole collapse talk off again โ—

    Analysts say it will ‘lead to an eventual bailout of the State (Spanish) and that the ‘bailout may well end up shutting Spain out of the Sovereign Bond Market’ and a Spanish Chief Economist Diez, saying ‘we will end up with junk Bonds’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2157509/World-markets-soar-Spain-handed-100billion-bailout–sparks-Greek-anger-deal-No-need-austerity.html?ito=feeds-newsxr

    Greeks will want to renogiate their terms at least ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109617
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Rajoy said a victory for the euro ๐Ÿ™„ ….In their dreams ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109619
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    So the bad banks in the system are going to get a loan to bail them out? I suppose it’s similar to Northern Rock or RBS, where it’s expected (hoped?) the money will eventually be repaid, with interest. And if they don’t meet the deadline, that will be extended again, and again…

    The real problem I feel is the government deficit. They claim they will be able to get this down to 3% by the end of next year. The trouble is (and George, the Greeks and various others have found this) that government cuts can lead to a further contraction of the economy, and consequently fewer tax receipts. Of course taxes can be raised, but that can sometimes lead to a further fall in revenue as more transactions move to the black economy. My biggest fear is that the Spanish government will target expat home owners to extract much needed revenue in the next few years. Falling house prices benefit those looking to buy a bargain, but if the costs of owning that property rise too much… Well we’ll see what happens next..

  • #109620
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just seen on Twitter

    11.00 Well, that didn’t last long – Spanish bond yields are now back over 6pc, trading at 6.2pc now.

    Some finance pages are tipping the europhobia won’t last the day out…we shall see!

  • #109622
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    and they drew in the football…..

  • #109630
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    How big is the Spanish banks’ property black-hole? โ‚ฌ155.5 billion, according to an analysis by Credit Suisse. So the bailout was not enough, if CS are right:

  • #109631
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well, we will know exacly when the analist who are working in detail considering the specific situation of all entities issuing theirs reports. Meanwhile all studies (including this one) are approximations and the number varies considerably. (from 40 billion to …..) Then we’ll know exactly.
    I think, has forced the Spanish government to request a bailout of the banks too soon, without knowing the exact number, based mainly on the report of the International Monetary Fund. (and IMF run…the report was to be published today but they published it last saturday)

  • #109632
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I think we can reasonably assume the figure will be higher than the 40 to 100 billion mentioned :mrgreen:

  • #109633
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    And now Fitch credit ratings agency has just downgraded Santander and BBVA from ‘A’ to BBB+, further reflecting market fears and what generally is thought on here. Some of the market makers and speculators made quick profits today, got in and straight out leaving others with the losses, hence the early rise in stock markets and then falls.

    It wasn’t enough, it doesn’t fool anyone, it increases Spain’s debt and interest repayments, it upsets Greece and who else, it upsets it’s populus who have austerity whilst Banks get away with it, and Cyprus is next (although smaller bailout), and the focus will switch to Italy next. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109634
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @FIRME wrote:

    Well, we will know exacly when the analist who are working in detail considering the specific situation of all entities issuing theirs reports. Meanwhile all studies (including this one) are approximations and the number varies considerably. (from 40 billion to …..) Then we’ll know exactly.
    I think, has forced the Spanish government to request a bailout of the banks too soon, without knowing the exact number, based mainly on the report of the International Monetary Fund. (and IMF run…the report was to be published today but they published it last saturday)

    No it was about the Greek elections and an attempt to make the Greeks believe the Eurozone is indispensable to them. The established parties have already said as much.

    What I think is really going on is Germany together with the thugs in the EU Commission see this debacle as an opportunity to force fiscal, banking and taxation integration upon member states of the Eurozone. They play good cop, bad cop until they have the peripheral states eating out of their hands and utterly dependent.
    The crisis suits their aims very well.

  • #109640
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This will appeal to the cynical amongst us, you could not make it up ๐Ÿ˜†

    Spain effectively ‘backstops it’s own rescue’

    Their bailout or loan looks to be coming from the EFSF and not ESM of which they are one of the 17 Eurozone Guarantors of the pot of 780 Billion Euros. Not sure how much they’re in for but being the 4th largest Eurozone member financially one would assume they’re in for 70-80 Billion at least.

    So if they default on their 100 billion or more loan/bailout they will have to repay their Guarantor amount so increasing their debt even further. Will they then be liable to Guarantee their Guarantee, it’s a bit like opening one of those Russian dolls?? ๐Ÿ™„

    As others on here have previously said ‘it’s a farce’ ๐Ÿ˜†

    I can’t see Spain or Italy and others ever being able to repay their debts at this rate ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109642
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It’s a giant Ponzi scheme.

  • #109646
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan you are right. Everyone tries to take advantage of the crisis …… governments of the ‘strongs’ countries try to increase their control and power over the rest as a way to secure your money and of course, their sales; the markets, benefits; the opposition parties get to power in their respective countries ……… regardless of the consequences is a game with many ways hopefully that it will not go out of control because in this case we all will pay it a high price

    Angie, this money plugs one of the two great problems of the Spanish economy (all know it since years), but still open the other, meet the deficit target. If Spain get the efective control about it, Spain get financiation on a correct interest then the debt will be paid like all the debts, with the money generated with work and economic activity

  • #109647
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Everyone tries to take advantage of the crisis
    Isn’t the power game is all about ??? If one does not to be expoilted in a manner one should have ones house in order. simples

  • #109652
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    FIRME, they’ve just been discussing whether Spain can repay their debts following their new bailout dressed up as a loan, and as katy says elsewhere Fitch today downgrading 18 Spanish banks and their 10 year interest rate rising to 6.83%. It is unsustainable at these rates, while the mother/father land of Germany pays almost nothing to borrow money, as does the UK too.

    The answer is a resounding ‘no’ they cannot repay their debts, so what does that mean, default, yet they have to Guarantee their own bailout with their own money, crazy or what? ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    The big question now is whether Greece will vote for Syriza on Sunday which will probably lead to them Grexiting the Euro which will start another run on the Banks ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109674
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Only a couple of things, although there is a point of view that I do not share my level of English and knowledge of macroeconomics not allow me to keep an interesting controversy ๐Ÿ™‚ (and iยดm sure taht after it, i will learn more of both things)

    Shakeel, certainly the power game acts both in times of crisis and in the boom. What I was trying say is that one must differentiate between the acts, statements, news, etc … which have their origin in this game and those without.

    That of Fitch is not, in principle, a good news but to be objective, I would like to know the new long-term rating that Fitch assigns to each bank along with the relative importance within the Spanish financial system.

  • #109675
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @FIRME wrote:

    That of Fitch is not, in principle, a good news but to be objective, I would like to know the new long-term rating that Fitch assigns to each bank along with the relative importance within the Spanish financial system.

    The ‘relative importance’ as you put it to further ratings agency bank downgrade is it restricts the ability of the particular bank to raise capital on the international markets. That in turn forces them to cut back it’s lending program and eventually seek help from the government.
    The Spanish government have announced they will charge all of their banks 8.5% interest on the EU bail out cash. That’s a punitive rate and I suspect the government wants to keep hold of this cash until their own form of stress testing is done.
    I also believe that many Spanish banks will soon merge or disappear altogether.

  • #109676
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    According to the media Brussels has said that the bailout will not be for all troubled spanish banks. Some may have to be liquidated!

    Moodys have now downgraded Spain to one point above junk. What do they know, they should have read the forums good news about Spain thread ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109679
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Spain’s borrowing rate now 7% ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    In Spain’s case, paying a 7pc interest rate to borrow new money means it becomes extremely expensive for the country to pay for its public services and service its debts. A bit like using a credit card to pay off a mortgage!

  • #109682
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I know I keep saying this but Spain cannot continue like this.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/14/spain-eu-rescue-funds-borrowing-costs

    The whole business has been very badly handled by Rajoy who’s principle concern seemed only to keep ‘the men in black’ out of Spain. The old machismo of the Spanish dies hard.

    Merkle continues playing bad cop saying to the Germans today that German resources are limited, putting the rest of Europe on notice she will not play.

    It’s now obvious to almost anyone that Spain will require a massive hand out, (sorry assistance) and have their affairs run by outsiders. The question then is how long Spanish people can tolerate imposed German style austerity before they rebel big time.

  • #109683
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    In the light of 7% interest on 10 year Bonds, Spain’s situation is being described as ‘critical’ now, and not a safe bet for investment including business investment. Italy is also reaching danger level, however there’s a much higher proportion of unsold new homes in Spain caused by their crazy property boom. ๐Ÿ™„

    8000 miners in Asturias demonstrating and on strike and alarmingly attacking Police with rockets made from pipes, all due to proposed cutbacks/austerity measures.

    Some properties we know that have been marketed for up to 7 years in Spain on a golf course have now been reduced by a whopping 50% from asking price of two years ago ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #109685
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    In the light of 7% interest on 10 year Bonds, Spain’s situation is being described as ‘critical’ now, and not a safe bet for investment including business investment. Italy is also reaching danger level, however there’s a much higher proportion of unsold new homes in Spain caused by their crazy property boom. ๐Ÿ™„

    8000 miners in Asturias demonstrating and on strike and alarmingly attacking Police with rockets made from pipes, all due to proposed cutbacks/austerity measures.

    Some properties we know that have been marketed for up to 7 years in Spain on a golf course have now been reduced by a whopping 50% from asking price of two years ago ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    they were a whopping 50% above a reasonable price to start with but do people want to buy golf properties now.
    With it reaching 7% i can’t see it getting any better maybe we are getting near to crunch time the can is so battered it will no longer roll
    when kicked down the road

  • #109686
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Can has been kicked down the road by Spain and the Eurozone wallies for far too long dartboy, it must be near breaking point now, I bet a lot of people have got everything crossed at the moment not knowing what to do for the best. Some maybe ignoring it and hoping it will go away ๐Ÿ™„

    Even those that have been heavily reduced are a dreadful build quality, your neighbours sounded like they were in the same room, worst building standards, no soundproofing whatsoever, I’d ever experienced anywhere

    BTW, I used to visit a hostelry in Dartford in the centre called the Bull Inn (dancing as well as a drink) I think it was called, is it still there? ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #109687
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    The question then is how long Spanish people can tolerate imposed German style austerity before they rebel big time.

    Assuming the Germans haven’t moderated their demands.

  • #109689
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Can has been kicked down the road by Spain and the Eurozone wallies for far too long dartboy, it must be near breaking point now, I bet a lot of people have got everything crossed at the moment not knowing what to do for the best. Some maybe ignoring it and hoping it will go away ๐Ÿ™„

    Even those that have been heavily reduced are a dreadful build quality, your neighbours sounded like they were in the same room, worst building standards, no soundproofing whatsoever, I’d ever experienced anywhere

    BTW, I used to visit a hostelry in Dartford in the centre called the Bull Inn (dancing as well as a drink) I think it was called, is it still there? ๐Ÿ˜‰

    yes its still there called the bull and vic now but basically the same place have tripped over the uneven stone floor in there on many a night whilst having a jig (it wasn’t the drink honest)
    Did you ever venture out to westkings down to the kings lodge night club i ran the restaurant there but in the mid 80’s

    i can’t imagine anyone wanting one of those golf properties now with the poor locations lack of facilities and in all probability no golf course not to mention lack of the promised rental incomes and poor build quality

  • #109690
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    i can’t imagine anyone wanting one of those golf properties now with the poor locations lack of facilities and in all probability no golf course not to mention lack of the promised rental incomes and poor build quality

    Yes, but there will be a Paramount theme park coming to a golf development near you so it will all be okay ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #109692
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The latest link to this crisis:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/14/spain-eurozone-impending-doom?newsfeed=true

    The UK has announced it’s pumping billions (ยฃ140 Billion) into main Bank to lend to other Banks to lend to businesses etc all at cheap rates to kick start growth, because their actions haven’t worked so far, so a Plan B really in disguise. A bit like Spain calling it’s bailout a loan, it doesn’t fool anyone but themselves ๐Ÿ™„
    Has been viewed cynically by many in the City etc as panic move before the outcome of Greek elections. Seems to me everyone is in ‘squeaky bum’ territory now ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109693
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    i can’t imagine anyone wanting one of those golf properties now with the poor locations lack of facilities and in all probability no golf course not to mention lack of the promised rental incomes and poor build quality

    50% reduction is conservative. 65% to 70% is the norm if you buy a re-po from the banks which were taken from Polaris World unsold stock when they collapsed.
    Even at around 65k with 100% mortgages they still cannot be shifted. Without the hyperbole of the glossy ads and marketing everyone sees through what a disaster the idea was/is. The principle no no is their terrible location. People don’t want to live in the boomdocks surrounded by intensive agriculture and poor facilities and pay a fortune in community charges.

  • #109694
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi, anyone have any info on BMN bank? I can’t remember in which thread the Credit Suisse spreadsheet was?

    For some reason our bank manager is being way, way too nice in trying to convince us to sign up to a second mortgage to clear our 3k debt. She’ll offer us a ‘special deal’ of 7000k at 4.5% by adding 13,000 euros to our mortgage (!). ha ha ha ha…….

    Smile, breathe and say ‘um, no thank you’ and then run before she throws something at me!

  • #109695
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You’ve heard of ‘Grexit’ Greece exiting the eurozone, now there’s ‘Spexit’ Spain leaving ๐Ÿ™„

    Interesting view from across the pond considers Spain leaving first and then doing business with the Spanish speaking world instead:

    http://www.caseyresearch.com/gsd/critical-read/spain-may-leave-eurozone-greece-analyst

  • #109697
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Interesting view from across the pond considers Spain leaving first and then doing business with the Spanish speaking world instead:

    http://www.caseyresearch.com/gsd/critical-read/spain-may-leave-eurozone-greece-analyst

    Who did the writer have in mind when he says the Spanish speaking world ? Argentina ?? ๐Ÿ˜†

    Richard

  • #109698
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Such as Argentina ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109699
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    My guess would be Argentina, plus the rest of South America (less Brazil), the whole of Central America, plus Cuba, Dom. Republic, Puerto Rico, some of the Antilles, the Philippines (although it’s not official language now) and Equatorial Guinea, and maybe they will add US States of California, New Mexico, Florida to that ๐Ÿ™„

    And, all the tango and salsa bars around the world ๐Ÿ˜†

    Wouldn’t be an insignificant trading block ๐Ÿ˜‰ They’d probably take that for starters ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #109703
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    UK Reuters agency say Spanish property prices fall at steepest rate on record, article seems up to date 14th June 2012 ๐Ÿ™„

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/14/uk-spain-property-idUKBRE85D14V20120614

  • #109708
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    Angie

    In recent months two of Spain’s biggest companies got turned over by Argentina big time. I just wonder whether the writer of the article had his feet on the ground when he wrote that piece.

    Richard

  • #109712
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    For those who think now is a good time to buy, I will give you a little food for thought on the current stage/phase you believe Spain is at in relation to the crisis, long way off bottom, near the bottom, at the bottom!

    Last week I was on vacation in Hilton Head Island (US) staying with family in a house on South Beach Lagoon, now the houses on the street in 2005/6 were selling for 8 – 12 million with one at about 26 million, there are also about 15 houses on the street. Now the people that ‘lived’ there were all business owners, CEO’s or middle aged retired wealthy, most of them semi active investors, not in the stock market but more in a matter that ‘all assets are accounted for’ in their portfolio. Now, only about 4 families remain on the street out of the 15 and the rest have either sold and/or moved to rent out their houses (out of need). The house where we stayed has lost 50% of it’s value. This group of individuals I would have thought could weather any crisis, but they were decimated and had margin and level calls made on them.

    I came back to Spain and in comparison, I still see houses in my town that have not dropped 1 Euro in 3 or 4 years. They are in the fancy buildings (all be it 20-30 years old) or new and had all the latest furnishings installed, where all the ‘wealthy’ people live.

    So here I always hear the comment, ‘the rich do not need to sell’, ‘oh he has time and does not have to worry about money’, etc. Are the Spanish rich so different that they never invested, or invested actively in another part of their lives that a bank is not calling them to make whole the other investments? Why have it for ‘sale’ in the worst real estate market if you do not have need? If it is a bank property (as is the case too) and they are not rushing to sell, then how come all banks are insolvent, yet do not need to pick up the cash for the properties they can sell? Is it really easier to go to the ECB to ask for money than sell a couple of thousand houses? (case in point with Santander and the buildings for sale to Goldmans). Is the belief the government will pull a rabbit out of the hat, or the bank will make the margin call on the other guy and not them, due to connections?

    This disconnect equals 1 thing, this is not even close to the time to Invest or for this forums sake BUY a house..

  • #109713
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Excellent post kgpoc common sense truth from the sharp end. Capitalism in the western world is on the line. Total failure is a possibility it takes just one major domino to fall and then…….. โ—
    Investing in property now is high risk and the percentage of return does not justify remotely that risk.

  • #109715
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It’s good to hear a fresh perspective and comparisons on this kgpoc. Sometimes the ‘rich’ do need to sell because they’re often mortgaged up to their necks and/or lose their jobs. We know of some seemingly ‘rich’ people in very large houses abroad who are now forced to rent their properties out over Summer while they move to an apartment or rooms over a garage or similar.

    Some say on here that ‘if you wait you will miss the bottom of the market’, but maybe the market hasn’t bottomed yet. When it bottoms it’s unlikely to suddenly rise to the point where people think they’ve missed the boat. With so many unsold properties to sell first the market can hardly double overnight. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109716
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    I
    When it bottoms it’s unlikely to suddenly rise to the point where people think they’ve missed the boat. With so many unsold properties to sell first the market can hardly double overnight. ๐Ÿ™„

    That’s a pearl of wisdom Angie and precisely why investing in property for anything else but somewhere to live, particularly Spanish property makes little sense.
    Most analyst agree Spain will remain in recession until at least 2014 may be longer. Even with the rosiest outlook the country will take a decade to recover.
    Lending for property will be severely restricted, the market will be moribund even if Spain returns to modest growth.

  • #109717
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Where I used to live in Elviria the price of villas are still over the top. Some I have actually been inside some of them and they need a complete refurb and they are still asking 700,000+. They need a reality check.

    I have a friend who bought on a golf development in Naples, Florida. It is a very exclusive place, she only bought a coach house but there are some very grand houses there, absolutely pristine. Some very well heeled people there, including a member of the Burberry group. She decided to sell as it was bought as an investment to reduce tax on USA earnings but of course has not turned out that way. Fees are very high and rentals low. The properties were around $1.2 million. Agent suggested asking $800.000 but also said that there are 18 similar properties on sale! She did actually only pay $750,000 but as the agent pointed out, going really low wouldn’t help as the community fees etc. are so high it would deter anyone who is not fairly well-off (imposed $2,000 pa bar spend at golf club!).

    Very similar to some newer urbanisations in Marbella which have high community fees, someone we knew bought off-plan and had great facilities as promised but the community fees are extortionate. Imagine paying 400โ‚ฌ per month if you only visit about 6 weeks per year and not rentals! They are never going to be a bargain at 50% off.

  • #109722
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Regarding the Spanish all those who are very wealthy that I know have inherited properties. The beach house, the town house, a large finca. If someone with new money had to buy, especially in the boom, they’d have to pay out a lot for those places. Then add that the wealthy/connected are usually well in with the Mayor and then you’ll see that a lot of companies are still doing ok after the boom, because they had made so much during it. ?

    New money in Spain is probably suffering a lot more than old. I know an old guy who rides around on a rickety old bike with the same clothes on every day it seems. He could buy the town if he wanted to….. who would know though?

  • #109726
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @itsme wrote:

    I know an old guy who rides around on a rickety old bike with the same clothes on every day it seems. He could buy the town if he wanted to….. who would know though?

    I have a good friend like that. He is worth zillions yet lives in a very modest house, drives a beat up old Ford and goes around like a tramp. Money is relative the principle benefit is security and choice in life, anything else is just useless stuff.

  • #109731
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    rich people often are the ones who you wouldn’t have thought,my father in law is loaded drives a y reg astra and pays ยฃ10 a pair for his trainers ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109732
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The people I know who are fairly rich enjoy the advantages having money brings…and why not. If I had lots of money and wanted to live frugally I would give it away and do something good with it.

  • #109733
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The principle difficulty with wealth, once you have it, especially in these economic times is keeping hold of it, making it work for you and preserving it’s value for your families future.

  • #109734
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    The people I know who are fairly rich enjoy the advantages having money brings…and why not. If I had lots of money and wanted to live frugally I would give it away and do something good with it.

    the only thing he spent money on was his house and that was more to do with saving money on travel costs as it was just across the road from where he worked just happened to be the best road in the area.
    i am with you thou if i had it i would spend it oh no wait thats why i don’t have it flash cars that i have lost fortunes on holidays,a hot tub and the all important must have a slush machine for the kids ๐Ÿ˜† Its also hard living so close to bluewater with all those shops with all that rubbish that i don’t need, but i would rather spend now and have my kids enjoy their childhood they can make their own money when they are older

  • #109735
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Why Spanish regions owe so much money:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18277681

    They’ve emptied their pots on overpriced unfinished (in some cases) projects ๐Ÿ™„

    Also, Spain has decided to close up to 30 state run airports, some newly built lie unused ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109736
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Here in Almeria you can see all around the faded hording boards of project info. Four basketball courts on the outskirts of town. Project value 300,000 euros (!) for some concrete and fencing! Don’t they have any shame, take the blooming things down instead of showing everyone how much money the town halls have wasted!

    Another bit of road with the project cost of 1 million. On each of them there is the circle of blue European stars…… how much money did the Eurozone pour into Spain for the town halls to pour it into their own pockets??

  • #109749
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    As bad debts held by Spain’s Banks rose to a new 18 year high, and this afternoon the interest rate Spain has to pay on 10 year Bonds rose at one point to 7.18% before falling a little to 7.10% and in ‘danger zone’, the question has to be ‘how long can Spain survive this before asking for a full Sovereign bailout?’ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109750
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The autumn.

  • #109751
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    As long as that ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #109752
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    As bad debts held by Spain’s Banks rose to a new 18 year high, and this afternoon the interest rate Spain has to pay on 10 year Bonds rose at one point to 7.18% before falling a little to 7.10% and in ‘danger zone’, the question has to be ‘how long can Spain survive this before asking for a full Sovereign bailout?’ ๐Ÿ™„

    I know this will sound a bit nit-picky, but in fact the bond yield does not reflect the interest rate Spain has to pay on bonds. It is something the media continuously mis-reports. The interest rate (or coupon) Spain pays is set when the bonds are issued at auction, and it is fixed for the life of the bond. If the bonds trade at a value lower than that for which they were sold for at auctino then, from the point of view of the bond holder it is as if they were receiving more interest, but the Spanish government is not actually paying anything extra. The only time the Spanish government has to pay more (or less) interest is when they issue new bonds but, for whatever reason, those interest rates don’t seem to be matching the yield levels on the bond markets (although they are still high).

  • #109753
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    That’s technically quite true Chopera, however governments need to plan their budgets in advance and continually seek financial liquidity. The market benchmark yield on the 10 year is the figure they have to factor in.

  • #109754
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The end game is being played unless the EU and ECB act soon.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9340073/Spain-pleads-for-ECB-rescue-as-bond-markets-slam-shut.html

    quote: Spanish banks must repay or roll-over โ‚ฌ540bn on the capital markets โ€“ mostly over the next three years โ€“ a burden that may fall heavily on the Spanish state if the economy fails to recover soon.

  • #109755
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Spain has asked that the full report of the banks audit be delayed until September…wonder why! Their short term bonds sold today at almost double the rate of interest.

  • #109756
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    That old Germanic phrase sounds about the mark for Spain’s finances ‘Wirtschaft Nicht Gut’ ๐Ÿ™

    Those Germans have the Greeks by the b—s and next the Spanish ๐Ÿ™„ Already anti German tourist in Greece! โ—

  • #109737
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The problem with all this uncertainty about Spain’s future in or out of the Euro is that it makes even people who are interested in buying a homes in Spain delay their investment.

    As a certain economist called Ben Bernanke (Helicopter Ben) once wrote, uncertainty โ€œincreases the value of waiting for new information [and thus] retards the current rate of investment.โ€

    So you get a negative feedback loop with prices going down because people are waiting, which pushes prices down even more, making people wait even more……

  • #109757
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Banks in Span are just about out of the business of lending money on residential property. The only people who can buy now are cash buyers and those who can borrow for the purpose by remortgaging their principal residence outside Spain.

    The Spanish government are actively seeking and may well force weak banks to merge or go out of business altogether. The stronger banks have to increase their capital reserves and at the same time make massive settlements on the international markets for the billions they borrowed to finance the property boom. They can only do that with EU or government aid.

    Faced with this serious economic uncertainty, lack of finance, weak demand and massive over supply the housing market cannot recover. Most savvy clued up potential buyers know full well the reality and will wait until the market crashes through the floor. When that will be is anyone’s guess but the certain thing is it’s coming.

    That is not to say that some people are not buying at the moment a few are in the belief they have secured a bargain. In truth there are very few real bargains around just hyped up and meaningless comparisons from boom price to now.

    When prices across the board arrive at mid nineteen seventies levels I will start to believe it.

  • #109758
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    The problem with all this uncertainty about Spain’s future in or out of the Euro is that it makes even people who are interested in buying a homes in Spain delay their investment.

    As a certain economist called Ben Bernanke (Helicopter Ben) once wrote, uncertainty โ€œincreases the value of waiting for new information [and thus] retards the current rate of investment.โ€

    So you get a negative feedback loop with prices going down because people are waiting, which pushes prices down even more, making people wait even more……

    A similar thing occurs with computers and tech gadgets. People believe prices will always come down so many are tempted to put off buying just that little bit longer.

  • #109759
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Yes and by the time they release version 3 or 4 all the gremlins have been ironed out.
    I must stop answering these e mails and get on with business ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #109762
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    Logan – Very true on the banks!

    Mark – you make a very true statement, however if Spains house price falls are halted here and now, it would be pure folly and return to bite the same generation that will pay for this current banking disaster at a later date. (I do appreciate and enjoy your website)

    I feel good about the comments people have made on this forum especially seeing as Bankia has now unraveled and many lies are coming to light, for example all the sales numbers of houses back in 2009, 2010 (we knew it was impossible) turns out they were all fake money transfers from banks to constructors, etc. Or the fact that banks were lying about the amount of new loans vs. non performing loans to the Bank of Spain hence the government could post rosy results and forecasts.

    There are a lot of keen eyes on here that warned of some very ugly scenarios.

  • #109765
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Banks in Span are just about out of the business of lending money on residential property. The only people who can buy now are cash buyers and those who can borrow for the purpose by remortgaging their principal residence outside Spain.

    The Spanish government are actively seeking and may well force weak banks to merge or go out of business altogether. The stronger banks have to increase their capital reserves and at the same time make massive settlements on the international markets for the billions they borrowed to finance the property boom. They can only do that with EU or government aid.

    Faced with this serious economic uncertainty, lack of finance, weak demand and massive over supply the housing market cannot recover. Most savvy clued up potential buyers know full well the reality and will wait until the market crashes through the floor. When that will be is anyone’s guess but the certain thing is it’s coming.
    When prices across the board arrive at mid nineteen seventies levels I will start to believe it.

    i will be happy if they go back to mid 80’s prices then i will jump in and buy but it will not be an investment it will be a lifestyle purchase and i think to wait longer would see the investors snapping up the better positioned properties.so maybe another 18 months until it all has sorted its self out then look unless it all crashes around our eyes and burns which of course is a possibility

  • #109772
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Have just seen this article about massive 2012 tax rises for the Spanish as well as for non residents, have these been implemented already and if so what effect are these having?

    http://www.advoco.es/advice/8-personal-tax/99-massive-tax-rises-for-spain-in-2012.html

    On top of these rises some regions add more tax to these rates, another 3% for example! Non residents are not immune.

    Surely this puts a nail in their own coffin as a place to invest in property, another own goal perhaps? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109773
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Anyone who is in a capital business and does not channel their income through an off shore tax haven is either getting poor advice or they are happy to pay tax at exorbitant rates and contribute to the mismanagement of Europe’s peripheral economies..

    They are not immoral as DC maintains they are simply legally minimizing their personal financial risks. What is immoral is they way all governments waste resources and pay idle, stupid people an income to do absolutely nothing.

    I do not refer to the unemployed seeking and wanting work but the hard core of our societies who believe the world owes them a living.

  • #109774
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I see what you are saying Logan.

    Do you or anyone on here know whether the link I’ve just posted is old news or current, and has it been implemented and to what effect it’s had or having on residents and non residents? ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #109775
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I believe the link is current Angie. Most UK ex-pats that I know declare their income in UK. Personal tax allowances are higher.

  • #109776
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Ex-pats can’t just decide where to declare. If you are in Spain more than 183 days per year then you are legally bound to declare all worldwide income in Spain.

  • #109782
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The impact caused by Spain’s financial crisis as SME’s close at alarming rate:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/47580291/As_Bank_Loans_ … t_for_Life

  • #109783
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    a

  • #109784
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Ex-pats can’t just decide where to declare. If you are in Spain more than 183 days per year then you are legally bound to declare all worldwide income in Spain.

    Not so Katy. Under the EU double taxation treaty you can decide where to declare your income if that income is obtained outside Spain. You are still required to submit a tax return but not billed for tax.

  • #109785
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Gary would you like to complete your word or sentence, was it a mistake or just derogatory? ๐Ÿ™„

    How do you find Barcelona compares with San Francisco? ๐Ÿ™„

    More bad news though:

    http://www.enterpriseirregulars.com/50109/impr … ece-spain/

  • #109786
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @logan wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    Ex-pats can’t just decide where to declare. If you are in Spain more than 183 days per year then you are legally bound to declare all worldwide income in Spain.

    Not so Katy. Under the EU double taxation treaty you can decide where to declare your income if that income is obtained outside Spain. You are still required to submit a tax return but not billed for tax.

    Not so, if you reside in Spain then you still have to make a tax declaration to the spanish authorities. Any tax paid in the UK will be credited under the double taxation agreement but depending on an individuals circumstances then you could find there is more to pay in Spain. I should know, paid it for years.

  • #109788
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Don’t be shy Gary, why don’t you complete your post? ๐Ÿ˜† You can pm if you prefer ๐Ÿ™„

    BTW I didn’t think you looked liked that ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109790
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Are they going to announce today how much Spanish banks owe, 5.30pm on the 24hr news channel??

  • #109791
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Let’s hope so Itsme, was this expected today? I expect it will be a bob or two, I’d prefer it if they converted to pesetas to make it look a bit more, only joking of course ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #109794
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m going to make a guess of 325 million euros. A bit less than previous guesstimates but maybe they are being bribed to lower the figures ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Our Banco Mare Nostrum bank manager wasn’t in such a happy mood this morning, she said that if it all goes wrong she’ll be out of a job….. oh dear, not.

  • #109795
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Construction completions fell 31.4pc in Q1 to 30,000, down 74pc since the peak.

  • #109796
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @itsme wrote:

    I’m going to make a guess of 325 million euros. A bit less than previous guesstimates but maybe they are being bribed to lower the figures ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Our Banco Mare Nostrum bank manager wasn’t in such a happy mood this morning, she said that if it all goes wrong she’ll be out of a job….. oh dear, not.

    Shall we open a sweepstake ๐Ÿ˜† Be a bit difficult though, I would go for around 450 billion but seeing as the final report has been with-held until September I suspect a fudge!

  • #109797
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Audit of the Spanish Banking System is on the 24hr news channel now live. My 5 and 6 year olds are hollering that i’ve changed it over from SpongeBob Squarepants…. probably not much difference to what they have to say??

  • #109798
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @logan wrote:
    @katy wrote:
    Ex-pats can’t just decide where to declare. If you are in Spain more than 183 days per year then you are legally bound to declare all worldwide income in Spain.

    Not so Katy. Under the EU double taxation treaty you can decide where to declare your income if that income is obtained outside Spain. You are still required to submit a tax return but not billed for tax.

    Not so, if you reside in Spain then you still have to make a tax declaration to the spanish authorities. Any tax paid in the UK will be credited under the double taxation agreement but depending on an individuals circumstances then you could find there is more to pay in Spain. I should know, paid it for years.

    Katy.
    I don’t wish to hi-jack the thread but I suggest you either change your accountant or contact HMRC if you have UK revenue. You may find it will save you some dosh. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #109799
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Just before we hear the outcome of this, it was announced earlier that Spain auctioned 2.2 billion euros of Bonds, more than targeted but at high cost.

    Whilst interest on 10 year Bonds fell, the average yield of 5yr bonds jumped from 4.96% to 6.072% to a new 15 year high ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #109800
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @logan wrote:

    Katy.
    I don’t wish to hi-jack the thread but I suggest you either change your accountant or contact HMRC if you have UK revenue. You may find it will save you some dosh. ๐Ÿ™‚

    If you are living in Spain it is not just HMRC that sets the rules. According to Spain even UK state pension must be declared and tax paid in Spain. Some tax does have to be paid in the UK (eg. income from rental property) but it still has to be declared on spanish tax returns. Infact whatever you have paid elsewhere if you do not declare on spanish tax system then you are illegal and liable to prosecution.

    Anyway I am not in the spanish system anymore, thank god :mrgreen:

  • #109801
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Spanish mortgage lending in May down 31% on last years figure. I suppose last year wasn’t great either!

    Easyjet are pulling their base out of madrid because of high costs. There will still be flights although these will be cut by 20%

  • #109802
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Spain’s banks need a $78bn bailout according to the so named ‘independent audit’. I think we have learned that little in Spain is independent.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/
    That is only the beginning to keep ’em solvent.

  • #109803
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    If you are living in Spain it is not just HMRC that sets the rules. According to Spain even UK state pension must be declared and tax paid in Spain. Some tax does have to be paid in the UK (eg. income from rental property) but it still has to be declared on spanish tax returns. Infact whatever you have paid elsewhere if you do not declare on spanish tax system then you are illegal and liable to prosecution.

    This is my understanding as well

  • #109804
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @katy wrote:

    @itsme wrote:
    I’m going to make a guess of 325 million euros. A bit less than previous guesstimates but maybe they are being bribed to lower the figures ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Our Banco Mare Nostrum bank manager wasn’t in such a happy mood this morning, she said that if it all goes wrong she’ll be out of a job….. oh dear, not.

    Shall we open a sweepstake ๐Ÿ˜† Be a bit difficult though, I would go for around 450 billion but seeing as the final report has been with-held until September I suspect a fudge!

    I was way out…they state they need 62 billion. I will have to say it….62 billion my arse ๐Ÿ˜ณ

  • #109808
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I was way out…they state they need 62 billion. I will have to say it….62 billion my arse ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    As I have posted before… here’s a good estimate that I think is on the conservative side.

    In the last few years of the boom lets say 5 million properties built. Lets say a loss of 100k Euros per property.

    = 500 Billion !!

    Ok this loss is being held by private individuals and institutions. But the Banks holding only 10% of it ????

    Then of course there is the bad debt of householders that re-mortgaged to finance a lifestyle. I always wondered why I saw so many new German cars in Almeria!

  • #109810
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The bank bail out also has to take into account the losses going forward as more people lose their employment and default on loans. Also declined property values which weakens collateral.
    Any estimation of that is likely to be best guess work. As I have said before the banks will be required to settle massive international loans within the next three years.

    As Moody’s et al downgrade banks in Spain close to junk status it may not be possible to roll over these debts. So they will either default or the government will be forced to step in again.

    The current announcement of โ‚ฌ62bn is way short of the actual figure down the line. What it simply represents is the banks immediate needs nothing more.

  • #109812
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    There were 58000 evictions last year in Spain, an increase of 22%, and Spaniards are fighting the Banks to stay.

    In one case a Bank wrote off 90% debt from a home owner allowing her to stay and therein lies the Banks’ dilemma, no wonder Bankia who are heavily involved are in such deep poo, if they write off debts it encourages others to try it on, if they don’t, the Banks can’t find replacement tenants and the total of unsold properties rises leaving the Banks holding all the debt, a conundrum or what and of their own making? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109813
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    There are demos every week in Spain against evictions, there is one in mรกlaga today. Then there are all the problems with the miners in the north, burning tyre barricades, firing rockets etc. Demos in schools against cuts too.

  • #109816
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Spain’s poor economy is now putting Madrid’s 2020 Olympic bid at serious risk ๐Ÿ™„ Will that be good or bad for them, does it generate more than it costs to stage? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109819
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    i think that depends angie. For Atlanta, the olympics was not a real boon, but it offered a positive contribution to Barcelona.

  • #109821
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It didn’t help Greece very much either. ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

  • #109822
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It all depends how much money is creamed off.

  • #109823
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This article might make you smile, however it did make me laugh ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_35077.shtml

    Luis de Guindos is off to his office to write his begging letter but no-one knows if the wonga is going directly to Government or the Banks or which fund it’s actually coming from : ๐Ÿ™„

    I’ve also bashed off a letter asking for only 1 billion but paid straight into my account and just like Spain, I have no intention of ever repaying it:lol:

    Meanwhile, Rajoy, Merkel, Hollande and Monti are meeting in Rome today (so another jolly for them) to search for a solution to the problem. You couldn’t make this up if you tried, they are a bunch of incompetent monkeys ๐Ÿ˜†

    Has ‘The Crazy Gang’ made a comeback? โ“

  • #109826
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    All ended in another fudge. 130 billion available to promote growth…except only 10 billion is new money ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109827
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The rest in all those 500 euro notes which have been hidden under the mattress?

  • #109839
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Gary would you like to complete your word or sentence, was it a mistake or just derogatory? ๐Ÿ™„ How do you find Barcelona compares with San Francisco? ๐Ÿ™„

    I’m a man of few words. Actually, I pressed submit without previewing and shut down the computer and obviously, I wiped out everything. The agony of delete.

    So this is what I intended to write was in response to logan, who wrote:

    Anyone who is in a capital business and does not channel their income through an off shore tax haven is either getting poor advice or they are happy to pay tax at exorbitant rates and contribute to the mismanagement of Europe’s peripheral economies..

    The next time you need a policeman, fireman, postal delivery, urgent healthcare, a road fixed, etc, please have the decency to instead call your offshore banker. Don’t insult the rest of us who pay taxes. We are just as tired of those who avoid their responsibilities (which increases our tax bills) as we are of what we call ‘welfare queens’ here in the States.

    As for the comparison of Barcelona and San Francisco, I’m still in shock as the Spanish banking and real estate practices. For those who do not know, apparently in response to the bailout, interest rates on mortgages will rise on July 1st. What’s frustrating for me is that the incompetent seller’s agent caused a delay and now I will be needlessly paying higher interest, 15.000 more for the life of the mortgage. It’s not like the mortgage was good before the rate increase: 1st year 3.9%, and then some euribor formula after the first year BUT with a minimum of 3.5%. Now it is 4.5% 1st year with a 4.5% minimum after the 1st year. I should add that I am paying down 40%, it is a 20 year mortgage and I have perfect credit and my annual income is (in dollars) over 100,000. Then there are the little fees: To get what we call a cashier’s check from the bank: 100 euros. Here in the States, $5, regardless of the amount. In order to avoid a lifelong relationship with the Spanish banking system, a relationship that makes me feel the need to shower after exiting the bank, I will endeavor to pay off the mortgage within 5 years.

    Also, I’m really stunned that there is little creativity in the EU for dealing with it’s messes. You want to sell surplus real estate? Lower the interest on loans or provide some other incentives (remember the 2.500 for each baby?) You want to stimulate the tourist economy? Give 200 euro discounts on flights to Spain for those who can prove that they will be staying in hotels, etc. I promise you that every hotel room in Spain would be reserved and the overall tax revenue from tourism would greatly increase.

    Anyway, I’m in a sour mood over the rate hike – we were to sign the arras yesterday. I’ve now made some demands for guarantees from the bank that nothing will change before I sign and I’ve asked owner to leave everything in the piso except for his personal belongings, to offset the ‘pain’ of paying a higher rate, caused by his agent. I’m sure that if I ever purchase the piso, I will forget about all of these problems by replacing them with new problems – a major reforma.

  • #109844
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    The next time you need a policeman, fireman, postal delivery, urgent healthcare, a road fixed, etc, please have the decency to instead call your offshore banker. Don’t insult the rest of us who pay taxes. We are just as tired of those who avoid their responsibilities (which increases our tax bills) as we are of what we call ‘welfare queens’ here in the States.

    I see from your post that you are enjoying the joys of getting involved in Spain. Believe me this will not be your last difficulty.
    In relation to tax and your comments. Tax is not a moral responsibility. It is a burden imposed by government on people who work hard to earn sufficient to support themselves and their families.
    If that government provide under the law a method of reducing the liability to pay high taxes, we have the freedom of choice in a democracy to use it.

    I personally would much rather give my tax savings to a worthy charity in whom I was confident would not waste my hard earned money by giving it away to useless causes and where it would do some real good.

    Peter Hitchen quote:
    What on earth is moral about paying tax? A greedy, slovenly state forces you to hand over roughly half your money every year, by threatening to send you to prison if you donโ€™t.
    Then it shovels that money carelessly down a huge hole. The Government is bad at almost everything it does. If you sent it out to buy you a loaf of bread, it would come back a week later with stale cake, and pretend it had lost the change.
    People who can afford to do so avoid the wretched โ€˜servicesโ€™ the state arranges in return for this legalised theft. What are these? Schools that teach sexual licence but not times tables or proper reading; police who are never there when you want them; hospitals plagued with inexcusable dirt and neglect; a welfare system that punishes thrift and encourages sloth.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2163658/PETER-HITCHENS-Theres-moral-tax–feel-free-avoid-it.html#ixzz1yhIr0bRO

  • #109865
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    The Government is bad at almost everything it does. If you sent it out to buy you a loaf of bread, it would come back a week later with stale cake, and pretend it had lost the change.
    People who can afford to do so avoid the wretched โ€˜servicesโ€™ the state arranges in return for this legalised theft.

    What rubbish. Could government do a worse job than Goldman Sachs? Do we see thousands of bodies piling-up because government incompetence in emergency health care? I sincerely hope that neither you nor Hitchens call the government-run emergency number when you need help. I hope that you avoid government ambulances and government hospitals and health care. I hope you only drive on private roads. Hire your own private fire department and police.

  • #109870
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Gary investment banks like Goldman Sachs has been given that power by the goverment. So his point is actually very valid. Had fractional reserve banking not been backed by the government no one would use that ponzi scheme.

    Personally I don’t think you are morally obliged to pay any taxes as long as you put in as many resources out of the system as you use.

  • #109876
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Seems like Spain’s unemployment figures are not as bad as those given, yes ‘B’ money still rules ๐Ÿ™„ So does this mean good news or bad news for Spain, a conundrum perhaps? ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/world/europe … wanted=all

  • #109877
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @Ardun wrote:

    Personally I don’t think you are morally obliged to pay any taxes as long as you put in as many resources out of the system as you use.

    Yes Ardun that’s the point really. People make their own choices how to spend their own money and if half is not going to government that choice is spread much wider and stimulates economic growth and employment. More jobs, more choice and improved funding.

    Gary’s argument can not stand up because the services he refers to can be all privately owned and run and paid for my private subscription from our personal choices. That view of government knows best is out of date.

    We simply need to change how society is structured and abolish the entitlement culture and dependency on the state as DC said yesterday. However it will be a long time coming in the rest of Europe, especially communist France. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #109880
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    logan:

    How does a private Police force work? or a private fire service?

    Of course there have to be taxes, surely the discussion should be how that money is spent.

  • #109883
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Yes some tax but not 45% to 50% of income. In France Hollande wants to introduce a 75% tax band for high earners.

  • #109884
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Spain has officially applied for its banks bailout money. It has not said how much it want though ๐Ÿ™„

    AFP reports that Spain has requested up to the full โ‚ฌ100bn figure which was originally floated, despite independent reports that suggested a figure of “only” up to โ‚ฌ62bn was needed. Although the letter lacks detail – the exact amount needed will be added in later.

    Imagine this scenario in the real world. Someone applying for a loan…’how much do you wan’t’…’Dunno, let you know later’…’How will you pay back the loan’….’Oh. I’ll borrow it from someone’ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109886
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Not to forget that Spain may end up standing as one of it’s Guarantors to it’s own loan/bailout, ‘how will you pay it back?’ the answer ‘don’t ask such a silly question, we won’t’ ๐Ÿ˜† Could anyone make this up, it beggars belief? ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109889
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It’s all funny money anyway. The bailout is supposed to come from the ESFS. To fund it other member states of the Eurozone borrowed the money on capital markets by issuing bonds and other debt instruments.

    So it’s case of we will borrow the cash from them and lend it to you, so you can lend it to someone else so they can square up their accounts and then pay back them because they lent it to the public and lost it.

    It’s a giant Ponzi washing machine, laundering money which then ends up back where it started. What a way to run a European economy. ๐Ÿ˜ฅ

  • #109911
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Yet another counter balance shows that more Spanish companies are closing with resulting loss of many jobs:

    Basically a town in La Mancha called Villacanas has row upon row of factories stamped with the word ‘Puertas’ and now shut as a result of the end of Spain’s property boom, (they supplied doors to the Developers). As a result 4000 people (50% of the workforce) have now lost their jobs.

    news.sky.co./home/world-news/article/16242064

    The Sky link doesn’t work maybe because it has a Sky video ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109916
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Further downgrades for 28 Spanish Banks by Moodys, 1 week after the country asked for financial aid to support the Banks and there’s worse to come for Spain ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109917
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    There is a report in today’s FT Alphaville (can’t post the link) that some major Spanish banks are buying back their shares from the market.
    This is not illegal but it’s very strange. It is thought one reason may be by doing so they can further reduce their capital reserves thereby qualifying for more of the bail out dosh on offer.
    The shares are very cheap, nobody wants them for obvious reasons.

  • #109919
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Spains’ borrowing costs up again today.

    from Spain’s auction are in and they are not particularly pretty, with Spain having to pay more to borrow. Spain has sold both 3-month and 6-monthThe scores th treasury bills; the yield on the 3-month has leapt to 2.4pc from 0.8pc previously while the yield on the 6-month has climbed to 3.2pc from 1.7pc. Demand has also dropped off, with the bid-to-cover ratio on the 3-month dropping to 2.6 against 3.9 last time and falling to 2.8 versus 4.3 last time on the 6-month.

    Mind you if we get news of someone opening a tapas bar in Pamplona the situation could ease a bit ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #109923
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I love that bit about the tapas bar in Pamplona katy, should pull Spain through the crisis ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #109924
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Fresh from the Guardian newspaper:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/26 … c-setbacks

    Investors seek a safer haven than Spain and Italy:roll:

  • #109928
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Merkle says ‘Eurobonds over my dead body’. Germany has no intention of sharing the burden of the weaker states.

    So then please what on earth is the point of the Euro? ๐Ÿ‘ฟ Solidarity, fraternity, shared interests, I don’t think so.

    Merkle behaves like a loan shark. We will allow our banks to lend you as much money as you want but when you run into trouble we will send the boys round.

    Wake up Spain and everyone else the Eurozone is a con trick of malfeasant proportions. It only benefits Germany and to a lesser extent France. One day that fact will dawn on everyone.

    When the crisis reaches the point of seriously directly damaging German interests they will pack their bags and leave everyone to it.

  • #109929
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Telegraph breaking news: Rajoy says Spain cannot finance itself much longer.
    Spain’s central bank has said that economic indicators suggest that the economy will contract at a faster rate in the second quarter than in the first three months of the year. From January to March, Spain’s economy shrank by 0.3pc as Spain fell back into recession for the first time in three years. The Bank of Spain said that data showed private consumption had fallen at a steeper rate in the second quarter than the first while retail sales and car purchases had also shrunk at a faster clip.

  • #109933
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Surely that will mean a full Sovereign bailout soon for Spain logan, if he is saying that? ๐Ÿ™„

    Have just read that 25% of Spain’s population lies below the poverty line, up 2% on last year as Spain grapples with the highest rate of impoverishment amongst European states. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #109935
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Wasn’t it said that Spain is too big to bail out! The will have to find another word for it and keep propping them up with handouts. I think if they did have a full scale bailout then the Euro will collapse.

  • #109936
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It’s the politics and rhetoric of the situation prior to yet another ‘crucial’ summit meeting tomorrow in Brussels. What Rajoy is trying to tell the rest of the EU leaders is Spain’s situation is critical. He wants Euro bonds and so do most others but Merkle will not have it, that much is clear.
    Failing that Rajoy wants the ECB to buy up it’s bonds on the secondary markets, (treaties prohibit primary market purchase) thereby reducing yields and making self financing more affordable.

  • #109939
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Bad news for the populus but will it cause more protests if carried through? ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcr … -push.html

    VAT could be going up ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #109940
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Bad news for the populus but will it cause more protests if carried through? ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9357081/Debt-crisis-Spain-mulls-VAT-hike-in-austerity-push.html

    VAT could be going up ๐Ÿ˜‰

    They could just collect tax that should already be paid in a robust way.

    From only a very limited view of my own personal experience, my Spanish friends/family did not know that I need to pay income tax on my Spanish holiday apartment (I am non resident and it’s only used by myself), they of course have holidays homes and rent them out in the Summer months etc. Not only do they NOT pay tax on their second home, but they don’t even pay tax on the REAL income they receive in rent.

    An acquaintance I know works for Hacienda, he takes huge amounts in back handers to falsify all the local autonomo’s returns so they pay considerably less tax. You just know this things goes on all over the place, just like we know probably 90% of local officials probably took some form of bribe to approval building work during the boom.

    As an aside some North European politician or political commentator last week stated it was foolish to think the economies of the North and the south could work together. I thought about his statement (which we have heard a few times now) and wondered why? At the end of the day we probably all work as hard, I know self-employed people in Spain do work hard and education levels are similar.

    What I realised is that when senior politicians make this statement it’s really a veiled comment about the South’s corrupt systems, way of life and nothing else, because there is absolutely no difference in human nature between Brits, Germans or Spanish. The North in general has functioning systems that mean people are accountable and corruption is low. The South accepts corruption and people are not held to the same degree as the North.

  • #109941
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    just the same in the UK…I wonder how many pay tax on their spanish rental property….. :mrgreen: Frankly the tax dodgers are a flea in an elephants arse in the scheme of things. Sounds better though if they imply this is the problem when faced with a bailout!

  • #109942
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    just the same in the UK…I wonder how many pay tax on their spanish rental property….. :mrgreen:

    I don’t think so.

    The level of tax evasion in the UK is far less than in Spain. I agree that probably a large percentage of UK residents that earn income from a Spanish holiday home do not declare it, but that is because they think they can get away with it as the property is not in the UK.

    If UK residents have rental income from a UK property I expect tax evasion is miniscule when compared to the same scenario in Spain (eg Spanish residents declaring Spanish income tax on Spanish rental income)

  • #109944
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @jp1 wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    just the same in the UK…I wonder how many pay tax on their spanish rental property….. :mrgreen:

    I don’t think so.

    The level of tax evasion in the UK is far less than in Spain. I agree that probably a large percentage of UK residents that earn income from a Spanish holiday home do not declare it, but that is because they think they can get away with it as the property is not in the UK.

    If UK residents have rental income from a UK property I expect tax evasion is miniscule when compared to the same scenario in Spain (eg Spanish residents declaring Spanish income tax on Spanish rental income)

    Yup. Landlords in Spain can usually get away without paying tax, although they have much less protection from the law when it comes to difficult tenants. All things being equal, If I had the choice of renting in the UK and paying tax or renting in Spain and not paying tax, I’d still choose the UK.

  • #109945
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    There is a distinct difference between tax payers who legally minimise their tax risk and criminal avoidance. It is nether immoral or wrong to use the tax system laws of a country to your advantage. If government don’t like it their have the option always to change the rules.
    Criminal tax avoidance is no different to any other criminal activity and should be dealt with by strict law enforcement.

  • #109946
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    It is nether immoral or wrong to use the tax system laws of a country to your advantage.

    I feel I must take issue with that comment, or at least qualify it. I’d say it would be more accurate to say “It might be neither immoral or wrong”

    In may cases the goernment would have intended the tax break to be ultimately beneficial to the nation, however once the army of high priced lawyers get their teeth into it they are looking at how to pervert its intention and deliver a benefit to their client without offering any benefit to the nation.

    In many cases the tax avoidance scheme is criminal, it’s just that the lawyers and accountants think they have made damn sure it can’t be proved. Loads of tax exiles creep back into the UK for a few extra days when needs must, or at least they used to; the tighter border controls might have stopped some of that.

    Take the recent case of the K2 scam by Jimmy Carr, it involved assigning all his earnings to a Jersey based company he had set up, resigning and then have them pay those earnings back to him as a loan.

    No tax would be payable because it was a loan – except a repayment date wasn’t set so that would be some time never.

    Perfectly legal but hardly moral.

    Not that I don’t have sympathy for tax avoiders, I’ve paid enough myself to sympathise with them but I’m not going to be so disingenuous to hear that it is morally OK and not object.

  • #109948
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    There are many differing schemes and creative ideas to legally reduce tax burdens. I don’t say avoidance because it’s almost impossible to do that and remain at liberty. There is no moral obligation on anyone to pay high tax burdens.

    People who rely on public empathy such as Jimmy Carr should however consider if it’s worthwhile for his image before entering into dodgy schemes such as K2.

    Residence in tax havens such as Jersey or Monaco are another and if it’s legal and you keep to the rules why should it be considered immoral? What about Non-Doms? They legally avoid high taxation by paying a fixed penalty. Is that immoral or wrong? It’s the law and the country benefits by it.

    In fact in my experience negotiation with the revenue usually brings a decent compromise and restful nights.

  • #109949
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    I agree with Logan on this. Rather than get angry with people who legally find ways to pay very little tax on very large incomes, we should be getting angry with the government(s) that designed the system that allows them to do this and, quite astoundingly, appear to have also been completely ignorant of it.

  • #109950
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    I know it’s bad manners to correct posters but in this case I apologise in advance because I feel I need to point out for the sake of clarity that Avoidance is legal whereas Evasion is illegal.

    Back to my point though.

    @logan wrote:

    In fact in my experience negotiation with the revenue usually brings a decent compromise and restful nights.

    Yes, that is well understood by those who indulge in avoidance (and often evasion too). My brother has gone down that route on two occasions over the years.

    It is why the lawyers and accountants are able to reassure their clients that any scam they come up with, can only be win – win. The argument is along the lines of “if at some point in the future HMRS say that this is not a legal avoidance we just disagree and if that is not accepted by them we point out that we didn’t think it was evasion at the time.” We agree to pay the back taxes (and maybe or maybe not some interest) and we’re no worse off than if we hadn’t done it.

    Ultimately the lawyers, accountants and would be tax avoiders will have done a deal with their consciences and feel OK with themselves.

    Career criminals often have the same viewpoint, summed up in the saying “if you can’t do the time don’t do the crime” At the end of their sentences they will have “paid their debt to society” and will feel that they have acted morally and true to their consciences.

    Of course their victims and some sections of society may not agree, but life will go on.

    I don’t want to make too much of this, we clearly have different viewpoints and we are both entitled. I just choked a bit when the phrase not immoral was used. Feel free to rebut my point but I think I will then leave it at that.

  • #109951
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    I agree with Logan on this. Rather than get angry with people who legally find ways to pay very little tax on very large incomes, we should be getting angry with the government(s) that designed the system that allows them to do this and, quite astoundingly, appear to have also been completely ignorant of it.

    Yes, I agree with you. Governments generally don’t try very hard to make the tax burden equitable. They tend to be more pragmatic and base their decisions on how hard or expensive it is to collect the tax.

    Hence PAYE taxpayers get heavily clobbered because it is easy and cheap to collect and large scale avoidance is very difficult. The middle to high income PAYE earners are most heavily clobbered based on the premise that not only is it easy and cheap to collect but that group will have far less public sympathy than the low earners.

    It’s an unfair world!

  • #109952
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I usually agree with your views Zoro but in this I’m poles apart. Forgive me but your post has a whiff of moral indignation rather than a pragmatic argument.

    One of the principal reasons I left the UK many years ago was the ruinous taxation rates of Dennis Healy & Co. If my memory serves it was around 90% for higher incomes. ‘Tax until the pips squeak’ was the motto of the Labour Party who squandered taxpayers money supporting a left wing agenda and bankrupted the nation.

    I am at a loss to understand why tax has suddenly become societies new moral issue. The current UK government is being disingenuous trying to convince people tax has that dimension. Osborne started it and DC followed as he often does.

    Giving to charities is a moral issue, being taken to the cleaners by the tax man is not and never can be. Al governments waste taxpayers money. Take a look at the UK social security budget. Can it ever be ‘moral’ to pay idle, feckless people a reasonable income to do nothing, whilst their neighbours work hard all hours of the day to support themselves? Can it be moral for governments to spend our money on hopeless foreign wars?

    High taxes are usually imposed on a society by governments to fulfill a political party agenda and service it’s borrowings. Spain has wasted billions on useless grandiose projects and is now raising taxes to force the people to help pay for it. Where is the morality in that?

    Tax is an imposition and I believe if it’s possible to legally avoid or more practically reduce it we have a responsibility to ourselves to do it. With that liberty we can then choose our own methods of contribution to society.

  • #109955
    Profile photo of zoro
    zoro
    Participant

    Honestly, this time I mean it ๐Ÿ˜‰ My last post on the subject.

    Moral indignation? Absolutely.
    It was 83% – Margaret lowered it to 40% and raised VAT – no complaint with that although I think the threshhold was lowered to ensure that that rate captured more people than just those who paid 83%

    Yes, governements do waste money and will continue to do so irrespective of where the burden falls. Sadly democracy ensures that an ill-informed or apathetic electorate effectively votes in greedy and incompetent politicians…

    Or a well informed electorate with vested interests votes in a government of able and greedy politicians to deliver on their behalf. I wish there was a better system but there isn’t.

    My gripe is that the tax burden is disproportionately applied i.e. % of income for those in the middle to higher income bracket. Some might say (to paraphrase) proportionally excessive taxation without proportionally excessive representation.

    Well this is just about as far away from Spanish Property as I care to get.

  • #109956
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @zoro wrote:

    Well this is just about as far away from Spanish Property as I care to get.

    Not really Zoro, it’s relevant to the current situation in both Spain and Greece. Criminal tax evasion has directly contributed to government debt. Had these governments tried to live within their actual means (tax receipts) instead of believing they were as rich as Germany things now may well be different.

    Political mismanagement we agree on and until the public have confidence their governments will manage their money in a more responsible way tax evasion will continue.

  • #109964
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant
  • #109968
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Patch it Up again as Italy and Spain hold Merkel to ransom, how long for?

    Will the UK Barclays Bank and other Banks Libor and Swaps fraud now impact on World Banks to create another crisis?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-spanish-home- … another-25

    Outlook for Spanish property prices far from rosy though mind you that’s before the miracle cure just announced by Merkel ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109974
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Following on from the report above:

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgagesho … -year.html

    ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109976
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Hmm didn’t someone claim property sales were doing well in Mallorca ๐Ÿ˜

    Massive outflow of capital out of Spain in the first 4 months of the year

    http://www.diariosur.es/rc/20120629/economia/salida-capitales-continuo-abril-201206291539.html

  • #109978
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    katy et al take a look at this, there could be a Firesale of Corporate Spain, don’t think I will look for opportunities there yet ๐Ÿ˜›

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/10307085

  • #109992
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Yet another article on the Spanish deficit, this time from Reuters:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/26/us-spain-deficit-idUSBRE85P18X20120626

    Economic activity is slowing sharply: ๐Ÿ™„

  • #109995
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    been a few price increases today in Spain. Electric, gas, butano bottles, prescription charges.

  • #109997
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Increases in taxes including VAT and property taxes being discussed on top of those you mention katy ๐Ÿ™„

    Increase on property taxes and VAT will probably kill off any remaining embers of property revival IMO, as well as make Spain less of a bet for investment generally ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #110007
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This hard hitting article points the finger at the corrupt Spanish Politicians including Rajoy, all who have profited to excess from their greed and corruption whilst ordinary Spanish citizens have suffered along with overseas residents in Spain:

    http://www.ianfraser.org/the-euro-fiscal-corruption-contest-the-spanish-entry/

    It talks of them being a ‘tightknit incestuous group’ who’ appointed each other to their benefit’ Los Bastardos: ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

    Well worth a read whichever side you’re on : ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110015
    Profile photo of kgpoc
    kgpoc
    Participant

    This month the new recycling charges take effect. Last year it was 40 Euros, this year it is 120 Euros ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #110024
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    People often say it is much cheaper to live in Spain than in the UK but IMO Spanish prices have generally caught up with British prices, I don’t find Spain any cheaper if you factor every day costs in such as Health Care, utilities and even food items. I think what people pay for heating during Winter in the UK is probably the same as air con. in Summer in Spain, friends of ours always complain how expensive electricity and water now seems in Spain.

    Eating out does seem much better value in Spain still, as well as cost of wines in supermarkets but I expect certain items would be much cheaper in the UK than Spain, swings and roundabouts.

    Don’t lets forget how extortionate Bank charges are in Spain, as well as ridiculously high completion costs for property and agents fees for selling in Spain compared to UK. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110025
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Internet charges are higher in Spain, white goods and clothes etc more expensive. Wine is cheaper but only the bottom end. If you want to buy a decent bottle of French or Australian eg. then it is usually cheaper in the UK. as is champagne. My gas/electric bills are the same as they were in Spain 2 years ago…and we don’t skimp! You can get a menu del dรญa for around 8โ‚ฌ. On the other hand I can get a good carvery here for ยฃ5.95 or with pudding ยฃ7.

  • #110057
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Outstanding Spanish community fees rise to record levels, 1.3 billion euros, up from 1 billion euros a year earlier.

    Spanish home owners in arrears rose by 31% last year, meaning larger bills for those who do pay ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110090
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    As if things can’t get worse for Spain, you know, they like to shoot themselves in both feet, they’ve now said they are going to impose a new tourist tax from this Summer ๐Ÿ˜ก

    This takes the form of a 7 Euro per person departure tax, so on a hard stretched family of 4 who already pay lots of airline extras on top of basic fares, a further 28 Euros. Not much you might think, but that 28 Euros would probably buy a Full English Breakfast one day of their package for the family of 4 who typically invade the crowded Costas, such as the tattoo brigade with bald heads and Union Jack shorts, the men I mean, well I think it’s the men ๐Ÿ˜†

    Oh Golly gosh, ay’ve become a fwightful snob ๐Ÿ˜†

    Only jesting, but Spain will make it’s customers pay for it’s own profligacy rather than it’s bent Government Ministers, so expect their tourism figures to drop immediately ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110092
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This tax is rising more at both Madrid and Barcelona airports ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Full story here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18720587

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110098
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    This tax is rising more at both Madrid and Barcelona airports ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Full story here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18720587

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

    Just adds to the appeal of driving down, i have driven down to llorett a few times as i have a friend who lives in between llorett and tossa.I leave at 6pm and meet him at 11am in a beach front bar for a beer. When travelling with a family it is going to end up being cheaper to drive saving air fare and car hire charges.

  • #110099
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Dartboy, years ago we used to catch a ferry at Dover at 6pm and drive to Palafrugell or Girona and be there by 10.00 am Spanish time next morning, so a 17 hour drive with two drivers alternating, fairly comfortable with stops en-route. Maybe more families will start that again ๐Ÿ™„

    Spain knows how to kill off tourism as well as their property industry, they beggar belief really, and good old Ruinair with O’Dreary, he’s going to pass on the increased tourist tax to passengers who’ve already booked and paid for their tickets ๐Ÿ˜ก

  • #110100
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Dartboy, years ago we used to catch a ferry at Dover at 6pm and drive to Palafrugell or Girona and be there by 10.00 am Spanish time next morning, so a 17 hour drive with two drivers alternating, fairly comfortable with stops en-route. Maybe more families will start that again ๐Ÿ™„

    Spain knows how to kill off tourism as well as their property industry, they beggar belief really, and good old Ruinair with O’Dreary, he’s going to pass on the increased tourist tax to passengers who’ve already booked and paid for their tickets ๐Ÿ˜ก

    i must admit to not having the luxury of a 2nd driver but i did sleep for a few hours before leaving and my stops were just for fuel and the loo.
    We now go to Moraira for our holidays so it will be a 24 hour drive but we go for 3 weeks so if we leave a day early we won’t loose out on too much. flights are around ยฃ110 each way on average so nearly ยฃ900 for 4 hire car of a decent size around ยฃ450.So a total cost of around ยฃ1350.
    Its been awhile since i have been but ferry at say ยฃ150 fuel around ยฃ600 and tolls maybe ยฃ200 still a ยฃ400 saving and i get to drive my own car and have enough for the 1st weeks shopping left over

  • #110120
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Not been a good day for Spain today. 10 year borrowing back to 7%. Stock market down 3.14%, had one of it’s worst weeks for years.

    Finland says it will leave the euro rather than keep financing other countries debts. Didn’t any of them read the small print when they signed up…one for all and all for one, isn’t that what a single currency is supposed to be ๐Ÿ˜•

  • #110134
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Yet another reason why Spain, it’s Banks, it’s property industry, and 1000’s of purchasers are in such a mess is this fact that’s just been outlined! ๐Ÿ™„

    Spain’s Banks are offering repossessed residential units for sale at prices up to 40% higher than market value by enticing buyers with 100% finance and long term 50 year mortgages.

    So, if they are marking up by 40% above market value it’s yet another Spanish property scam, it’s outrageous that they expect people to pay so much more for something worth so much less, whilst locking them in to a virtual lifetime mortgage on a property that could not be sold at the lower price and will likely never reach the ‘cloud cuckoo land fraudulent price’. As if that wasn’t bad enough, the Banks then give a 100% loan on the inflated fraudulent price.

    These Spanish Banks meanwhile have applied for a bailout because of previous fraudulent and profligate actions. ๐Ÿ˜ก

    I’ve heard it all now, but how anyone can trust the Spanish property industry and the Spanish Gov’t must need their heads screwed on ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110144
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You should read this article before attempting to buy in Spain then I will link it to the post above:

    http://www.pie-mag.com/articles/3030/spain-s-unsold-housing-tops-2m-price-slide-until-2015/

    The oversupply of unsold real estate in Spain won’t be absorbed until 2030, doesn’t sound a good investment for anyone with a brain ๐Ÿ˜† Of course those who do buy, go in with their eyes wide open and can’t blame others for their mistakes, all the sound advice is on this website: ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110151
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Spain poised for more austerity. IVA to rise as bond yields for a 10 year return to 7%. Utilities rise 10% this year as social benefits are cut back.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9383469/Debt-crisis-Spain-poised-for-more-austerity.html

    How much more pain can people take before social unrest turns ugly? Buy a property in Spain? ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110173
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Dartboy, years ago we used to catch a ferry at Dover at 6pm and drive to Palafrugell or Girona and be there by 10.00 am Spanish time next morning, so a 17 hour drive with two drivers alternating, fairly comfortable with stops en-route. Maybe more families will start that again ๐Ÿ™„

    Spain knows how to kill off tourism as well as their property industry, they beggar belief really, and good old Ruinair with O’Dreary, he’s going to pass on the increased tourist tax to passengers who’ve already booked and paid for their tickets ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Girona is due to get it’s AVE station sometime soon (was meant to be this year but apparently it’s been delayed by at least a year). I expect that within a few years someone from say Germany or Switzerland will be able to hop on a high speed train and be in Girona 3 hours later. It’s one of the reasons why I think that in the long run that area (especially around Palafrugell) will be very highly sought after.

  • #110175
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Chopera, I couldn’t agree more with you, that part of Spain is still pretty much as it was when I first visited years ago. Mark would clearly know it well since he lives not a million miles away. One of the most picturesque sites anywhere is to be in the hills with the greenery of the pines (and the scent of them) and looking at the blue water in those coves. Hotel Garbi was 1st hotel we stayed at there, loved it, quiet, friendly and lovely food. Liked Ampurias too, the ruins were fascinating. It seems so different to those Southern Costas ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Those lovely hills with pine trees, the coves of the Costa Brava, the ceramic factories where we used to import terracotta etc from La Bisbal etc and once you get into Girona from some of the outskirts I thought it was really pleasant.

    And all within a comfortable and interesting drive from the UK ๐Ÿ˜‰ Oh, should have put this on another thread, I like lots of Spain ๐Ÿ™„ That’s where I’d put money into Spain if I wanted to move there. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110181
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Once went on a school trip to Blanes, as you will guess, many years ago ๐Ÿ˜€ It was lovely, don’t know what it’s like now!

  • #110184
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Blanes is over developed now but Sant Feliu de Grixols is my favorite place on the Costa Brava but only out of season. It’s still very Spanish. Inland Catalonia is wonderful and so easy to reach from France.

  • #110204
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    there is a little hilltop village called scant halari sacalm just inland and at the top of the hill is a little hotel with a field opposite and the villagers all go up there and have a hog roast it is the perfect place to spend a lazy sunday afternoon it is so spanish

  • #110240
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Chopera, I couldn’t agree more with you, that part of Spain is still pretty much as it was when I first visited years ago. Mark would clearly know it well since he lives not a million miles away. One of the most picturesque sites anywhere is to be in the hills with the greenery of the pines (and the scent of them) and looking at the blue water in those coves. Hotel Garbi was 1st hotel we stayed at there, loved it, quiet, friendly and lovely food. Liked Ampurias too, the ruins were fascinating. It seems so different to those Southern Costas ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Those lovely hills with pine trees, the coves of the Costa Brava, the ceramic factories where we used to import terracotta etc from La Bisbal etc and once you get into Girona from some of the outskirts I thought it was really pleasant.

    And all within a comfortable and interesting drive from the UK ๐Ÿ˜‰ Oh, should have put this on another thread, I like lots of Spain ๐Ÿ™„ That’s where I’d put money into Spain if I wanted to move there. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I spent many a childhood summer holiday snorkeling around the pine clad coves of the Cote d’Azur, and have always preferred that kind of coastline. The only parts of Spain that really seem to have it are the Costa Brava and the Balerearics which, unfortunately for me, are all just a bit too far from Madrid to get to on a weekend break. Which is partly why I’m looking around Javea instead.

  • #110291
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    When this sort of thing happens in Spain as the country sinks into the mire even more it’s no wonder there’s civil unrest:

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … missioned/

    Beggars belief really ๐Ÿ˜ก

  • #110307
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Another large business in Spain getting hit by debt costs:

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-06-28/telefonica-risks-getting-hit-by-debt-costs-on-spain-ties

    Quote ‘Crisis Ravaged Spain’:roll: ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110322
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    As if there wasn’t enough suffering in Spain, now their animals in zoos are:

    http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index.php?/ne … of_europe/

    Spain described as the sick man of Europe ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110323
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Sadly, it doesn’t take an economic downturn for Spain to mistreat animals. Anyone been to Selwo near Estepona? Some of the animals are in appalling conditions.

  • #110326
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    you know that barcelona reporter article is from 2006, or at least that was when the report was put in.

    from what i can see about 14/15 zoos in spain are part of the EAZA. plus 2 associate members.

  • #110351
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Spain’s costs rise to dangerously high levels again:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/09/spain … 58271.html

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110365
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    In the last 4 years, figures according to business school ESADE show that 177,300 companies have closed in Spain due to the economic crisis, that is one in 10 companies. That’s an awful lot of people that have lost their jobs ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110368
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    No one seems to have mentioned the rise in IVA to 21% (apologies if I have missed it). I am just going to read the whole austerity package. Despite everything the borrowing costs are still creeping up.

  • #110369
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @angie wrote:

    In the last 4 years, figures according to business school ESADE show that 177,300 companies have closed in Spain due to the economic crisis, that is one in 10 companies. That’s an awful lot of people that have lost their jobs ๐Ÿ™„

    About 12% lost their jobs in one year. There is optimism on the horizon though…a couple of guys are doing well with their IT business ๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110389
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Eurozone unemployment predicted to rise by another 4.5 million unless the austerity measures are reversed, it begs the question re Spain’s latest austerity cuts announced today ‘why’? Clearly they wish to reduce their deficit but all the wise guys are saying ‘enough is enough’. It predicts a further rise in Spain’s unemployment as a result! : ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/11/eurozone-unemployment-austerity-ilo?newsfeed=true

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110397
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    of course it does Angie, just look what is says in the article:
    “is expected to soar as public sector workers are made redundant and rising prices from higher VAT rates eat into consumer spending.”

    considering the levels of bureaucracy, a more streamlined system can only be better. And if that means getting rid of people who have been filling these positions, then good.

  • #110399
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It’s a bit like ‘good news, bad news’ Andrew!

    First they reduce staff and wage bill and streamline things in the Public Sector, so good, but their already high unemployment level rises even further, as well as benefit payments, so bad ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110400
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I think he was ordered to do it by the eurozone in order to get the bailout money. There is a photo gallery of Rajoy in the telegraph and I felt sorry for him when I saw his face.

    The UK is a good example of cuts. Not supporting Brown as I dislike him but the UK was coming out of recession when he was voted out. Then came Osborne with his cut cut…now look whats happened.

  • #110401
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Agreed Angie

    But how else do we generate employment? Labour costs in spain are too high compared to neighbouring countries and its bureacracy is inefficient and ineffective.

    And we should be thinking growth not austerity. But the government cannot simply ‘cheat’ by borrowing now and paying later, nor can it simply devalue to hide its faults.

    And there is growth! Someone on spi posted about the growth of export sector! Not going to fix spain, but it will help. And making it cheaper and easier for these and other companies to hire and expand can only benefit spain.

    Then borrowing comes will reach more manageable levels and the government can be less austere.

  • #110402
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Things could get rather nasty in Spain, I’m not sure the populus is going to put up with all these cuts, more civil unrest ๐Ÿ™„
    As an ordinary Spaniard trying to make a normal living, to face more austerity whilst seeing your leaders and others walk away with huge bonuses etc, ๐Ÿ˜ก Roland Rat(o) ex Bankia boss is said to be getting a 10 million Euro pay-off, for 1 year’s work with the Bank, if I were him I’d move country pdq ๐Ÿ™„

    The Spanish Tourist Board is livid with the new rise in VAT, it’s like cutting their right arm off ๐Ÿ™„

    They seem to be choking off growth Andrew, the word ‘growth’ in the Eurozone doesn’t seem to exist at present ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110403
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Things could get rather nasty in Spain, I’m not sure the populus is going to put up with all these cuts, more civil unrest ๐Ÿ™„
    As an ordinary Spaniard trying to make a normal living, to face more austerity whilst seeing your leaders and others walk away with huge bonuses etc, ๐Ÿ˜ก Roland Rat(o) ex Bankia boss is said to be getting a 10 million Euro pay-off, for 1 year’s work with the Bank, if I were him I’d move country pdq ๐Ÿ™„

    The Spanish Tourist Board is livid with the new rise in VAT, it’s like cutting their right arm off ๐Ÿ™„

    They seem to be choking off growth Andrew, the word ‘growth’ in the Eurozone doesn’t seem to exist at present ๐Ÿ™„

    Agree abot the first paragrah.

    Abot the tourist board. Not good but an increase from 8% to 10% should be manageable.

    What else can they do?

  • #110406
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Public sector workers made redundent. Some thing unheard of !!!! just as well they do moonlighting. Are they employable in the private sector ? of course I dont mean teachers, nurses, doctor, fire fighters.

  • #110410
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    Public sector workers made redundent. Some thing unheard of !!!! just as well they do moonlighting. Are they employable in the private sector ? of course I dont mean teachers, nurses, doctor, fire fighters.

    I think cuts in the public sector will be very common, in all countries. Of course you can cut numbers by not taking on new staff to replace those who retire or quit – called natural wastage.
    The Spanish government’s aim is to increase the private sector. Now there are plenty of success stories (I post quite a few on the good news/opportunities thread) but will they compensate for the losses elsewhere? Not everyone can retrain and persuade the new sector to take them on; and not everyone can work in the sandwich bar in London either.
    I personally don’t think the VAT rise is as major as everyone thinks – a lot of European countries have a rate between 20% and 25%. A coffee or small beer will still be around ยฃ1 or so (1 euro 20 – 30). It’s the high cost of hiring staff (and the fee for autonomos) in Spain that is a major drag on the economy.

  • #110414
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110418
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I see that Mark agrees the party is over for Spain for many years katy, Spain left with ugly blocks of flats, and unfinished sites, higher costs and taxes, civil unrest, and still the ongoing Eurozone uncertainty. Will Spain need a full Sovereign bailout within the the year, will they one day revert to the Peseta?

    No way is Spain a safe bet until all this is over, how long will that take? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110419
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    http://www.repossessed-property-spain.com/en/news/268/spanish-cam-bank-closes-after-137-years-in-business/

    Is there any truth in this.

    If so I don’t understand why it has not made the main stream news

    If it is true how will effect customers etc

  • #110420
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    http://www.repossessed-property-spain.com/en/news/268/spanish-cam-bank-closes-after-137-years-in-business/

    Is there any truth in this.

    If so I don’t understand why it has not made the main stream news

    If it is true how will effect customers etc

    Wasn’t it effectively dissolved last year when it was sold to Banco Sabadell for a Euro?

    http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/20480/banco-sabadell-buys-the-cam-bank-for-a-euro

    more here on how Cam (and various other cajas) went under – it’s not it hasn’t made the news, just that most of us have known of the Cajas reputation for many years. Not sure why anyone trusted using them…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/08/spain-savings-banks-corruption

  • #110698
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    http://www.repossessed-property-spain.com/en/news/268/spanish-cam-bank-closes-after-137-years-in-business/

    Is there any truth in this.

    If so I don’t understand why it has not made the main stream news

    If it is true how will effect customers etc

    Wasn’t it effectively dissolved last year when it was sold to Banco Sabadell for a Euro?

    http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/20480/banco-sabadell-buys-the-cam-bank-for-a-euro

    more here on how Cam (and various other cajas) went under – it’s not it hasn’t made the news, just that most of us have known of the Cajas reputation for many years. Not sure why anyone trusted using them…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/08/spain-savings-banks-corruption

  • #110421
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s not really news because the “worst of the worst” (CAM) effectively ceased to exist some time ago. Banco Sabadell took it over for nothing (plus a whole lot of government guarantees).

    But there was some sort of general assembly that lead to this being reported as news:
    http://www.laverdad.es/murcia/v/20120710/provincia/asamblea-rechaza-cancelar-cuotas-20120710.html

  • #110701
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s not really news because the “worst of the worst” (CAM) effectively ceased to exist some time ago. Banco Sabadell took it over for nothing (plus a whole lot of government guarantees).

    But there was some sort of general assembly that lead to this being reported as news:
    http://www.laverdad.es/murcia/v/20120710/provincia/asamblea-rechaza-cancelar-cuotas-20120710.html

  • #110426
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Thanks DBMarcos99 and Mark

    I thought it meant the branches were all closing with staff redundancies which would have been really bad news.
    This however seems to be a re-branding at most I guess or just a meeting to complete the takeover by Sabadell last year.

  • #110712
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Thanks DBMarcos99 and Mark

    I thought it meant the branches were all closing with staff redundancies which would have been really bad news.
    This however seems to be a re-branding at most I guess or just a meeting to complete the takeover by Sabadell last year.

  • #110458
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Interesting to see a report from over the pond:

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/89121- … stays-high

    Possibly already been mentioned under another similar topic ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110758
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Interesting to see a report from over the pond:

    http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/89121- … stays-high

    Possibly already been mentioned under another similar topic ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110495
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Estimated up to 400,000 Brits living in Spain have been left in financial ruin ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.th-eu-nit.com/index.php/current-top-ten/1024-spain-property-prices-plummet-leaving-many-uk-expats-in-negative-equity

    How many of these were victims of mis-selling ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110795
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Estimated up to 400,000 Brits living in Spain have been left in financial ruin ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.th-eu-nit.com/index.php/current-top-ten/1024-spain-property-prices-plummet-leaving-many-uk-expats-in-negative-equity

    How many of these were victims of mis-selling ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110497
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes, I know an old lady involved in it. Absolute disgrace ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

  • #110797
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes, I know an old lady involved in it. Absolute disgrace ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

  • #110500
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I have a list of people from the UK and Ireland katy who we helped years ago with their Spanish property problems as well as some in Cyprus, it tots up to in excess of 50 people and they were pleased that some help was available and asked if there was any redress available. In some cases we managed to get the Developer/Agent to actually take/buy the property back after getting the Press on to them.

    I can’t tell you how upset some were, losing lots of money in the process, and some from Ireland who had re-mortgaged their Irish homes to buy their Spanish dream were now faced with a huge Irish mortgage to repay for years.

    Unfortunately, the common theme was, they said they were misled, most were not in it for investment either, but holiday home/permanent move.

    Beggars belief : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110800
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I have a list of people from the UK and Ireland katy who we helped years ago with their Spanish property problems as well as some in Cyprus, it tots up to in excess of 50 people and they were pleased that some help was available and asked if there was any redress available. In some cases we managed to get the Developer/Agent to actually take/buy the property back after getting the Press on to them.

    I can’t tell you how upset some were, losing lots of money in the process, and some from Ireland who had re-mortgaged their Irish homes to buy their Spanish dream were now faced with a huge Irish mortgage to repay for years.

    Unfortunately, the common theme was, they said they were misled, most were not in it for investment either, but holiday home/permanent move.

    Beggars belief : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110508
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Spain borrowed more than ever from the ECB in June.

    At 09.09, we mentioned that according to ECB data, Spanish banks borrowed โ‚ฌ365bn in June versus โ‚ฌ325bn in May – a new record. Analysts suggested that the data provides more evidence that Spanish lenders remain largely shut out of the interbank market. Juan Pablo Lopez, banking analyst at Espirito Santo, said:

  • #110808
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Spain borrowed more than ever from the ECB in June.

    At 09.09, we mentioned that according to ECB data, Spanish banks borrowed โ‚ฌ365bn in June versus โ‚ฌ325bn in May – a new record. Analysts suggested that the data provides more evidence that Spanish lenders remain largely shut out of the interbank market. Juan Pablo Lopez, banking analyst at Espirito Santo, said:

  • #110510
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spain tops the EU Misery Index (unemployment rate + inflation rate) with 26.4pc. The EU average is 13.5pc.

    Other EU countries:

    Tras Espaรฑa estรกn, segรบn Eurostat, Grecia (24,1%), Letonia (19,6%), Portugal (18,5%), Eslovaquia (18,4%) y Lituania (18,1%). En el lado opuesto se encuentran paรญses como Austria (7%), Holanda (8,2%), Malta (8,2%), Alemania (8,3%), Luxemburgo (8,5%) o Suecia (8,7%).

    Spanish regions:

    Andalucรญa es la regiรณn espaรฑola con un mayor รndice de Miseria (34,8%). Le sigue Extremadura, con el 33,8%, y Canarias (33,7%). Tambiรฉn se encuentran por encima de la media nacional (26,4%), Baleares (29,8%), C. Valenciana (29,3%), C. La Mancha (29,2%) y Murcia (28,7%). En el lado opuesto, se encuentra Paรญs Vasco (15,5%), Navarra (18,6%) y Cantabria y Aragรณn (ambas con 20,4%).

    This is crazy.

  • #110810
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spain tops the EU Misery Index (unemployment rate + inflation rate) with 26.4pc. The EU average is 13.5pc.

    Other EU countries:

    Tras Espaรฑa estรกn, segรบn Eurostat, Grecia (24,1%), Letonia (19,6%), Portugal (18,5%), Eslovaquia (18,4%) y Lituania (18,1%). En el lado opuesto se encuentran paรญses como Austria (7%), Holanda (8,2%), Malta (8,2%), Alemania (8,3%), Luxemburgo (8,5%) o Suecia (8,7%).

    Spanish regions:

    Andalucรญa es la regiรณn espaรฑola con un mayor รndice de Miseria (34,8%). Le sigue Extremadura, con el 33,8%, y Canarias (33,7%). Tambiรฉn se encuentran por encima de la media nacional (26,4%), Baleares (29,8%), C. Valenciana (29,3%), C. La Mancha (29,2%) y Murcia (28,7%). En el lado opuesto, se encuentra Paรญs Vasco (15,5%), Navarra (18,6%) y Cantabria y Aragรณn (ambas con 20,4%).

    This is crazy.

  • #110518
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The Spanish Court has opened a fraud case against former chief of state registered Bankia, one time IMF boss Rodrigo Rato. Bankia Chief Exec. Francisco Verdu announced his resignation after hearing about the case ( I wonder why? :lol:)

    So it isn’t just UK and US Banks that are run by corrupt thieves ๐Ÿ˜†

    Written by Real Estate Marbella 5th July ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110818
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The Spanish Court has opened a fraud case against former chief of state registered Bankia, one time IMF boss Rodrigo Rato. Bankia Chief Exec. Francisco Verdu announced his resignation after hearing about the case ( I wonder why? :lol:)

    So it isn’t just UK and US Banks that are run by corrupt thieves ๐Ÿ˜†

    Written by Real Estate Marbella 5th July ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110538
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    President of Germany’s Blundesbank said Spain should ask for a full bailout. Where would it get the trillions from though :mrgreen:

  • #110838
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    President of Germany’s Blundesbank said Spain should ask for a full bailout. Where would it get the trillions from though :mrgreen:

  • #110851
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    An article about a Tax warning to Expats in Spain :

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … -in-spain/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110551
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    An article about a Tax warning to Expats in Spain :

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … -in-spain/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110891
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The Olive Press is so honest and up to date with it’s articles ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … tural-gas/

    20 Million customers (that’s a lot of people) could see a 4% rise in electricity price ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110591
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The Olive Press is so honest and up to date with it’s articles ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … tural-gas/

    20 Million customers (that’s a lot of people) could see a 4% rise in electricity price ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110621
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Think Tank warns that Spain may still need a full bail-out ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/220 … tank-warns

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110921
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Think Tank warns that Spain may still need a full bail-out ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/220 … tank-warns

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110630
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It never rains in Spain : ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07/18/spain-sees-record-drop-in-house-prices/

    Record drop in house prices by an up to date article, another 25% drop predicted before any recovery ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110930
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It never rains in Spain : ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07/18/spain-sees-record-drop-in-house-prices/

    Record drop in house prices by an up to date article, another 25% drop predicted before any recovery ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110632
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    It never rains in Spain : ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07/18/spain-sees-record-drop-in-house-prices/

    Record drop in house prices by an up to date article, another 25% drop predicted before any recovery ๐Ÿ™„

    You do realise that lower house prices are good news, especially for the recovering economy and first time buyers?

  • #110932
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    It never rains in Spain : ๐Ÿ˜‰

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07/18/spain-sees-record-drop-in-house-prices/

    Record drop in house prices by an up to date article, another 25% drop predicted before any recovery ๐Ÿ™„

    You do realise that lower house prices are good news, especially for the recovering economy and first time buyers?

  • #110637
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Thought you were ignoring me ๐Ÿ˜†

    Of course lower prices are good for 1st time buyers and the economy and for you too as you say you are waiting for lower prices before you purchase in Madrid or Valencia or somewhere.

    However, lower prices are not good for those in negative equity, nor those who bought at the top of the market, nor those being talked into the hype of ‘now’s a good time to buy’ when a 25% further fall is predicted, not good maths to me ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110937
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Thought you were ignoring me ๐Ÿ˜†

    Of course lower prices are good for 1st time buyers and the economy and for you too as you say you are waiting for lower prices before you purchase in Madrid or Valencia or somewhere.

    However, lower prices are not good for those in negative equity, nor those who bought at the top of the market, nor those being talked into the hype of ‘now’s a good time to buy’ when a 25% further fall is predicted, not good maths to me ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110642
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Spain doing not so well in the ‘depressed Eurozone’, it needs to do better otherwise a full Sovereign bailout will be needed, the can has been kicked down the road for now ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110942
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Spain doing not so well in the ‘depressed Eurozone’, it needs to do better otherwise a full Sovereign bailout will be needed, the can has been kicked down the road for now ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110645
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Low house prices are good for people trying to get on the ladder. Otherwise I don’t think a depressed housing market helps the economy. Firstly rising property prices give the public a feel-good factor and they spend more freely. Most of the money for Brits deposits on Spanish property came from equity on their UK houses. They re-mortgaged and bought conservatories up to flash cars. The Spaniards did it too, my neighbours remortgaged and had an expensive heating system put in and bought two new cars. All that has stopped now…some borrowed to the hilt and now have no equity.

    I am just happy that when my spanish home shot up about 500,000 more after the boom started that we didn’t mortgage it ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110945
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Low house prices are good for people trying to get on the ladder. Otherwise I don’t think a depressed housing market helps the economy. Firstly rising property prices give the public a feel-good factor and they spend more freely. Most of the money for Brits deposits on Spanish property came from equity on their UK houses. They re-mortgaged and bought conservatories up to flash cars. The Spaniards did it too, my neighbours remortgaged and had an expensive heating system put in and bought two new cars. All that has stopped now…some borrowed to the hilt and now have no equity.

    I am just happy that when my spanish home shot up about 500,000 more after the boom started that we didn’t mortgage it ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110648
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Unfortunately for Spain there’s more pain to come before gain, the links will continue to posted so as to warn others considering taking the plunge ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110948
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Unfortunately for Spain there’s more pain to come before gain, the links will continue to posted so as to warn others considering taking the plunge ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110651
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Another link from The Olive Press:

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … -or-is-it/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110951
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Another link from The Olive Press:

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … -or-is-it/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110654
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Record drop in house prices by an up to date article, another 25% drop predicted before any recovery ๐Ÿ™„

    So its fair to say another two years at least before it hits bottom, add another 18months bouncing along and you are looking at 2016 before a recovery.

    Low house prices are good for people trying to get on the ladder.

    There is no ladder in the Costas, of course, just foreign speculators.

  • #110954
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Record drop in house prices by an up to date article, another 25% drop predicted before any recovery ๐Ÿ™„

    So its fair to say another two years at least before it hits bottom, add another 18months bouncing along and you are looking at 2016 before a recovery.

    Low house prices are good for people trying to get on the ladder.

    There is no ladder in the Costas, of course, just foreign speculators.

  • #110655
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Spain clearly is not working properly, it’s a case of too little regulation for property industry, lack of prosecution against those who’ve got away with massive fraud and deceit, a ridiculously long Court procedure (giving ample time for scammers to flee), manipulated Government figures, Eurozone highest unemployment, excessive overbuild now lying unsold, horror stories coming out daily, 1000’s of Expats house trapped in the sun wishing to return but unable to, the list goes on and on ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110955
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Spain clearly is not working properly, it’s a case of too little regulation for property industry, lack of prosecution against those who’ve got away with massive fraud and deceit, a ridiculously long Court procedure (giving ample time for scammers to flee), manipulated Government figures, Eurozone highest unemployment, excessive overbuild now lying unsold, horror stories coming out daily, 1000’s of Expats house trapped in the sun wishing to return but unable to, the list goes on and on ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110656
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Hardly “news” to just give biased opinion…but if the last two posters can do it, so can I…

    Spain will start its recovery this autumn/winter …

    Buoyed by at least one mega rail contract over 10 billion (clue it’s not just the Russian line they’re bidding for) the export industries continue their impressive growth of the last two years…
    Tourism from countries like Germany, Sweden and Russia continues to increase… plus there wil be a short term surge in property purchases to avoid the 2013 tax changes – this will create jobs in the hard-hit construction sector.
    The talented Spanish will continue to develop their world class industries in machinery, motor vehicles, fuels, chemicals, and semi-finished goods and foodstuffs.
    New labour laws will make companies more amenable to setting on staff – already this may have been a factor in the record decrease in the June unemployment figures.
    And lastly (for now) lower house prices will result in more properties changing hands, plus increased interest from overseas buyers. Again good for the hard-hit construction sector.

    I am of course talking an overall economic recovery – and I personally doubt house prices can rise next year (as I’ve said before that is good for the economy)

  • #110956
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Hardly “news” to just give biased opinion…but if the last two posters can do it, so can I…

    Spain will start its recovery this autumn/winter …

    Buoyed by at least one mega rail contract over 10 billion (clue it’s not just the Russian line they’re bidding for) the export industries continue their impressive growth of the last two years…
    Tourism from countries like Germany, Sweden and Russia continues to increase… plus there wil be a short term surge in property purchases to avoid the 2013 tax changes – this will create jobs in the hard-hit construction sector.
    The talented Spanish will continue to develop their world class industries in machinery, motor vehicles, fuels, chemicals, and semi-finished goods and foodstuffs.
    New labour laws will make companies more amenable to setting on staff – already this may have been a factor in the record decrease in the June unemployment figures.
    And lastly (for now) lower house prices will result in more properties changing hands, plus increased interest from overseas buyers. Again good for the hard-hit construction sector.

    I am of course talking an overall economic recovery – and I personally doubt house prices can rise next year (as I’ve said before that is good for the economy)

  • #110664
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    If you can understand this gobbledygook this throws a spanner in your forecast for Spain’s economic recovery Steviedeluxe aka DBM99, it’s so funny but I think I know what it is saying, interest on Spain’s Bonds seems to have risen again, and their recovery won’t happen until 2025 in the best case scenario.

    I didn’t write this but maybe some North African did ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.deltaworld.org/category/economy/

    http://www.deltaworld.org/economy/The-economic-level-of-2007-in-Spain-never-recovered-until-2025-in-the-best-of-cases/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110964
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    If you can understand this gobbledygook this throws a spanner in your forecast for Spain’s economic recovery Steviedeluxe aka DBM99, it’s so funny but I think I know what it is saying, interest on Spain’s Bonds seems to have risen again, and their recovery won’t happen until 2025 in the best case scenario.

    I didn’t write this but maybe some North African did ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.deltaworld.org/category/economy/

    http://www.deltaworld.org/economy/The-economic-level-of-2007-in-Spain-never-recovered-until-2025-in-the-best-of-cases/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110672
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Even Sur in English says ‘Spain is stuck in a swamp of low growth and high unemployment’

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110972
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Even Sur in English says ‘Spain is stuck in a swamp of low growth and high unemployment’

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110679
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Steviedeluxe aka DBMarcos99 you’ve been rumbled, you’re clutching at straws as some have said before, the links will keep coming to warn others not mislead as you so often do ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110979
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Steviedeluxe aka DBMarcos99 you’ve been rumbled, you’re clutching at straws as some have said before, the links will keep coming to warn others not mislead as you so often do ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110682
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Steviedeluxe aka DBMarcos99 you’ve been rumbled, you’re clutching at straws as some have said before, the links will keep coming to warn others not mislead as you so often do ๐Ÿ™„

    Ha ha ๐Ÿ˜† I know when you’re annoyed by straight forward argument and facts – you revert to personal attack! I have only ever posted here under this username. Unless you have evidence to the contrary…in which case you should report it to Mark the forum owner. Of course you won’t as you know you’re talking garbage ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110982
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Steviedeluxe aka DBMarcos99 you’ve been rumbled, you’re clutching at straws as some have said before, the links will keep coming to warn others not mislead as you so often do ๐Ÿ™„

    Ha ha ๐Ÿ˜† I know when you’re annoyed by straight forward argument and facts – you revert to personal attack! I have only ever posted here under this username. Unless you have evidence to the contrary…in which case you should report it to Mark the forum owner. Of course you won’t as you know you’re talking garbage ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110684
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Repetition Stevie aka DBM, but you do use it on other forums don’t you, you are lurching now and I do believe you use the word ‘vindictive’ about us and the word ‘Troll’ about others.

    You cannot stick to your word can you ? ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110984
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Repetition Stevie aka DBM, but you do use it on other forums don’t you, you are lurching now and I do believe you use the word ‘vindictive’ about us and the word ‘Troll’ about others.

    You cannot stick to your word can you ? ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110686
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Repetition Stevie aka DBM, but you do use it on other forums don’t you, you are lurching now and I do believe you use the word ‘vindictive’ about us and the word ‘Troll’ about others.

    You cannot stick to your word can you ? ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    So you accept that I have only posted here under this username! I’ll take that as a retraction then.

  • #110986
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Repetition Stevie aka DBM, but you do use it on other forums don’t you, you are lurching now and I do believe you use the word ‘vindictive’ about us and the word ‘Troll’ about others.

    You cannot stick to your word can you ? ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    So you accept that I have only posted here under this username! I’ll take that as a retraction then.

  • #110687
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just before marcus goes home for his tea, this news from the BBC. Note that Spains borrowing has reached 6.84% and looks as if the bailout won’t be enough.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18884115

  • #110987
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just before marcus goes home for his tea, this news from the BBC. Note that Spains borrowing has reached 6.84% and looks as if the bailout won’t be enough.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18884115

  • #110688
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Look back on the posts and see that I’ve never said you post on this website under the name steviedeluxe, only that you use multiple aliases, but then you rather childishly say that ‘others do the same as you’, get your facts right ๐Ÿ˜†

    Do you want to move or not, can you move or not, do you want familiarity or not, do you want prices to fall or not (self interest), could you get a job in Spain or not, make your mind up? ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110988
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Look back on the posts and see that I’ve never said you post on this website under the name steviedeluxe, only that you use multiple aliases, but then you rather childishly say that ‘others do the same as you’, get your facts right ๐Ÿ˜†

    Do you want to move or not, can you move or not, do you want familiarity or not, do you want prices to fall or not (self interest), could you get a job in Spain or not, make your mind up? ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110690
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Doesn’t look good for Spain katy nor for the wum ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110990
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Doesn’t look good for Spain katy nor for the wum ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110691
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Look back on the posts and see that I’ve never said you post on this website under the name steviedeluxe, only that you use multiple aliases, but then you rather childishly say that ‘others do the same as you’, get your facts right ๐Ÿ˜†

    Do you want to move or not, can you move or not, do you want familiarity or not, do you want prices to fall or not (self interest), could you get a job in Spain or not, make your mind up? ๐Ÿ˜†

    I’m not sure why you’re obsessed with stalking me. Perhaps you’re determined to show I’m an agent, or paid by the government, or something equally ridiculous. ๐Ÿ˜† Edit = oh i’m the wum (wind-up merchant) and yet it’s you Angie who keeps making the personal attacks, accusations and insinuations

    I’ll keep posting (as long as I’m a member here) good news and opportunities on the relevant thread. Doesn’t mean there aren’t downsides to living or working in Sain, but I’m sure you’ll be on here every day to gloat over those!

  • #110991
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Look back on the posts and see that I’ve never said you post on this website under the name steviedeluxe, only that you use multiple aliases, but then you rather childishly say that ‘others do the same as you’, get your facts right ๐Ÿ˜†

    Do you want to move or not, can you move or not, do you want familiarity or not, do you want prices to fall or not (self interest), could you get a job in Spain or not, make your mind up? ๐Ÿ˜†

    I’m not sure why you’re obsessed with stalking me. Perhaps you’re determined to show I’m an agent, or paid by the government, or something equally ridiculous. ๐Ÿ˜† Edit = oh i’m the wum (wind-up merchant) and yet it’s you Angie who keeps making the personal attacks, accusations and insinuations

    I’ll keep posting (as long as I’m a member here) good news and opportunities on the relevant thread. Doesn’t mean there aren’t downsides to living or working in Sain, but I’m sure you’ll be on here every day to gloat over those!

  • #110692
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You really have lost the plot now Marcos, check your posts and see your history of vitriol โ—

    You cannot ignore (or maybe you can) the facts stated by economists and others about Spain’s economic woes, it’s disastrous property market, predictions for what next. However you have stated several times that things are maybe right for buyers now whilst saying you want the market to fall further for yourself. Should buyers believe your hype, well let’s hope they don’t fall for it, you could cost people a lot of money? Did you mean Spain and not Sain? Have I said you are paid by the Gov’t? I am determined to show you are not an agent, because you might mislead people if you were : ๐Ÿ˜†

    Not here to gloat but to report the truth to warn others : ๐Ÿ™„ I remind you of your boast that you will ‘double your efforts to post good news’ in one of your fits of pique.

    Also noticed you ignored the topic ’10 reasons not to buy in Spain’ written by EOS, and the maths ๐Ÿ™„ You also ignore when asked ‘why don’t you move then’, clearly seems you cannot otherwise you’d be there no doubt : ๐Ÿ™„

    As long as you post, I’m sure we will too, one day you might get it right about some miraculous recovery, however it’s not predicted soon ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110992
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You really have lost the plot now Marcos, check your posts and see your history of vitriol โ—

    You cannot ignore (or maybe you can) the facts stated by economists and others about Spain’s economic woes, it’s disastrous property market, predictions for what next. However you have stated several times that things are maybe right for buyers now whilst saying you want the market to fall further for yourself. Should buyers believe your hype, well let’s hope they don’t fall for it, you could cost people a lot of money? Did you mean Spain and not Sain? Have I said you are paid by the Gov’t? I am determined to show you are not an agent, because you might mislead people if you were : ๐Ÿ˜†

    Not here to gloat but to report the truth to warn others : ๐Ÿ™„ I remind you of your boast that you will ‘double your efforts to post good news’ in one of your fits of pique.

    Also noticed you ignored the topic ’10 reasons not to buy in Spain’ written by EOS, and the maths ๐Ÿ™„ You also ignore when asked ‘why don’t you move then’, clearly seems you cannot otherwise you’d be there no doubt : ๐Ÿ™„

    As long as you post, I’m sure we will too, one day you might get it right about some miraculous recovery, however it’s not predicted soon ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110695
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    You really have lost the plot now Marcos, check your posts and see your history of vitriol โ—

    You cannot ignore (or maybe you can) the facts stated by economists and others about Spain’s economic woes, it’s disastrous property market, predictions for what next. However you have stated several times that things are maybe right for buyers now whilst saying you want the market to fall further for yourself. Should buyers believe your hype, well let’s hope they don’t fall for it, you could cost people a lot of money? Did you mean Spain and not Sain? Have I said you are paid by the Gov’t? I am determined to show you are not an agent, because you might mislead people if you were : ๐Ÿ˜†

    Not here to gloat but to report the truth to warn others : ๐Ÿ™„ I remind you of your boast that you will ‘double your efforts to post good news’ in one of your fits of pique.

    Also noticed you ignored the topic ’10 reasons not to buy in Spain’ written by EOS, and the maths ๐Ÿ™„ You also ignore when asked ‘why don’t you move then’, clearly seems you cannot otherwise you’d be there no doubt : ๐Ÿ™„

    As long as you post, I’m sure we will too, one day you might get it right about some miraculous recovery, however it’s not predicted soon ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

    Sigh – 8 more lines dedicated to proving a point about me. You don’t get it! Anyway there will be plenty of good news and opportunities in the months ahead – I’m sorry that it upsets you so to hear good news.

  • #110995
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    You really have lost the plot now Marcos, check your posts and see your history of vitriol โ—

    You cannot ignore (or maybe you can) the facts stated by economists and others about Spain’s economic woes, it’s disastrous property market, predictions for what next. However you have stated several times that things are maybe right for buyers now whilst saying you want the market to fall further for yourself. Should buyers believe your hype, well let’s hope they don’t fall for it, you could cost people a lot of money? Did you mean Spain and not Sain? Have I said you are paid by the Gov’t? I am determined to show you are not an agent, because you might mislead people if you were : ๐Ÿ˜†

    Not here to gloat but to report the truth to warn others : ๐Ÿ™„ I remind you of your boast that you will ‘double your efforts to post good news’ in one of your fits of pique.

    Also noticed you ignored the topic ’10 reasons not to buy in Spain’ written by EOS, and the maths ๐Ÿ™„ You also ignore when asked ‘why don’t you move then’, clearly seems you cannot otherwise you’d be there no doubt : ๐Ÿ™„

    As long as you post, I’m sure we will too, one day you might get it right about some miraculous recovery, however it’s not predicted soon ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

    Sigh – 8 more lines dedicated to proving a point about me. You don’t get it! Anyway there will be plenty of good news and opportunities in the months ahead – I’m sorry that it upsets you so to hear good news.

  • #110699
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I love it ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110998
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I love it ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #111086
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The Telegraph Magazine today carries this 5 page full article written by Fiona Govan, (not me BTW) ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9411367/The-pain-Spain-recession-and-the-middle-class.html

    Some of the many comments beneath the article are worth a read ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

  • #111118
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s all going pear-shaped very fast. Borrowing costs at all time high, stock market down another 3pc today, to below 6,000.

    Catalonian and Murcia have joined Valencia going begging to the national rescue fund controlled by the Government in Madrid. They won’t be the last regions to do so.

    It’s only a matter of time before the Government in Madrid in turn goes begging to the EU/IMF for a national bailout. That will come with strings attached. Berlin will run Spain. How long will the Spanish put up with that?

    Spain can’t afford it’s lifestyle and can’t pay its debts. That’s the crude reality.

    The bailout will probably happen sooner than you think. Now that it is inevitable let’s hope they get on with it ASAP. The longer they put it off, the worse it will be.

  • #111127
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Everything’s tickety boo if you believe the politicos:- ๐Ÿ˜†

    Top officials from Germany and Spain say the high interest rates that financial markets are demanding from Spain don’t reflect the country’s economic strengths.
    German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and Spain’s Economy Minister Luis de Guindos issued the joint statement Tuesday after a meeting in Berlin. Bond markets have pushed the yields on Spain’s benchmark 10-year bonds over 7 per cent.
    That means Spain faces higher rates when it taps bond markets to pay off its bonds as they expire, and could force it to seek a bailout from other member governments in the euro.
    Schaeuble and de Guindos said that level “does not correspond to the fundamentals of the Spanish economy, its growth potential and the sustainability of its public debt.”
    They said Spain has taken steps to get its economy back on track so it can keep paying its debts, and has put a balanced budget rule in its constitution.
    High bond market yields forced Greece, Ireland and Portugal to seek bailouts. The fear is that Spain’s economy is much bigger and would be costly to bail out. There are also concerns that if Spain seeks a bailout, Italy, the No. 3 economy in the eurozone, may also find it difficult to finance its debt load.
    Spanish and other EU government officials are seeking to play down fears that Spain may need a bailout for its government, not just it banks.
    Schaeuble and de Guindos said the best way to overcome the crisis would be to quickly implement plans to put fresh money into Spain’s shaky banking system using up to โ‚ฌ100 billion in loans from the eurozone’s bailout fund. Many banks suffered heavy losses from real estate loans.
    EU leaders have also agreed to set up a centralized banking supervisor that could directly put new money into banks, sparing governments from the burden of bailing them out. Troubled banks have been a key part of Europe’s crisis because markets fear that governments will go broke bailing them out. In Ireland, in particular, supporting banks contributed heavily to the country’s debt woes.

    So you see folks it’s all the fault of those nasty men in the bond markets sitting in front of their screens. They are to blame. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  • #111281
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spain is now almost the highest taxed country in Europe. I think only Denmark takes more tax.

    This way they will never generate growth and create jobs – just drive the economy underground. Fools.

  • #111282
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I keep repeating on here that high taxation in Spain is being forced upon the country by the paymasters of Europe particularly Germany.
    Rajoy knows quite well there will be no bailout cash unless he demonstrates a willingness to adopt meaningful austerity and a budget cut back program. There is no other choice other than the nuclear option of default and leaving the Euro.

    In October this year Spain has to repay maturing debt this year of โ‚ฌ28bn in October, bailout the regions who owe โ‚ฌ32bn, cope with it’s own ballooning budget deficit and recapitalise the bankrupt institutions.

    Faced with those problems, nowhere to hide and nowhere else to go but the EU and Germany the country has no choice but to do their bidding or give up.

  • #111283
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    I keep repeating on here that high taxation in Spain is being forced upon the country by the paymasters of Europe particularly Germany.

    What I find curious is that Germany has greatly benefited from the EU and the euro. But Germany’s policies now are 100% motivated by internal politics and emotion. It is in their best interests that Spain and other countries succeed, and yet the German approach to these problems will cause failure.

    I started questioning the validity of the EU when they allowed Greece to ‘join’. Nobody who had 1st year macro economics classes would have allowed that, especially having more than 70% of their economy ‘off the books.’

    As someone who is very close to owning an atico in Barcelona, my greatest fear is politicians seeking military solutions to these economic problems.

  • #111284
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Draghi disappoints the markets. May buy bonds but not sure yet. More of the same, talk no action. The can rolls on. ๐Ÿ™
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9445750/Debt-crisis-Draghi-say-ECB-ready-to-act-independently-live.html

  • #111285
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I like the fact that he says that the euro is irreversible and that going short in euros would be a waste of money. They basicly proved that he was clearly wrong just in a few minutes

    Always do the opposite of what a politician tells you to do.

  • #111286
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I do wonder just how he can make that kind of statement that the ‘Euro is irreversible’ when clearly the Euro depends upon Germany’s political cooperation and whose population are less than enthusiastic for bailing out peripheral states.

    Does he intend to buy these governments out by printing Euros wholesale when their find it impossible to go to the bond markets? Germany and the Bundesbank will not stand for it and he knows it.

    Draghi is another Italian clown out of his depth.

  • #111298
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    IMF gave out a report the other day basicly condemming a few countries for exporting to much and importing to little. Their suggestions was that these countries should start buying from example the US and some of the eurozone countries. IMF are actually suggesting more well maintained economies to waste resources so other not so well maintained can get benefits from it.

    The funny part was that most of these countries have floating currencies so when they infact export more it raises the value of their national currency which should make it less interesting to buy from them. I can understand complaints towards for example China in this area because of their fixed rate which in all honesty is to low.

    According to experts at IMF these countries risk being hung out for how they are “acting”.

    It’s turning into a farce.

  • #111299
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I heard Draghi giving yet another one of his unmemorable spiels earlier today and like Barroso, I have absolutely no confidence in either of them, they are like clones of each other and are no doubt overpaid bureaucrats who don’t seem to get anywhere. Makes you wonder how qualified or not they are ๐Ÿ™„

    Ardun, you’re quite right, these two, plus Van Rumpy Tumpy and others, along with those countries seem to be acting or making it up as they go, it’s been a farce for 2 years now ๐Ÿ™„ Why the markets put up with it beats me? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111300
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes the markets did fall for it didn’t they. I did quite well this week selling off before todays meeting. ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #111326
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Now Spain is hit with a new health tax according to The Olive Press, no doubt some will say it won’t affect people much like VAT on coffee, what’s a rise here and there on this or that, airport departure taxes etc etc but all these new taxes must impact on Spanish residents and Expats.

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08 … ealth-tax/

    ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111327
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Yes the markets did fall for it didn’t they. I did quite well this week selling off before todays meeting. ๐Ÿ˜€

    So you bought previously?

  • #111328
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I trade a little most weeks if the conditions are right…UK stocks that is. Follows a pattern, someone in the UE says something positive, the market goes up. After a week or so when everyone realises it was bullshit the market fall again.

  • #111331
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    You’re braver than I thought.
    It all seems a bit manipulated at the moment. Down one day 5% or 7%, up again 6% the following day. Far too volatile, although I suppose that’s where the traders can really make (amd lose) money.

  • #111353
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The truth that Spain seems to be hiding regarding Big Business indebtedness.

    Between 50-60% of Spanish Businesses have needed some kind of refinancing in the last 3 years delaying debt payments and putting up the cost of fresh guarantees.

    Spain non financial private sector debt is 134% of GDP, higher than any major economy in the world except Ireland whose figures are distorted by multinationals.

    Excluding Banks, Spain’s Blue Chip Companies on Ibex35 have combined debt of 222 billion euros, outstripping the market capitalisation of 216 billion euros.

    Now the really worrying part:

    The number of Spanish Companies who filed for Bankruptcy in 1st quarter of 2012 was up by 21.5% compared to same period of 2011.

    Spanish Banks have propped up companies considered ‘too big to fail’, sometime this debt will have to be repaid or the Banks will be stuffed.

    So Spain has been using the old trick of ‘Smoke and Mirrors’ to hide the real truth of Spanish Business decline. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111443
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Up it goes again after the seasonal drop recently published, unemployment!!!

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08 … cord-high/

  • #111520
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Interesting chart.

  • #111525
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Another good chart. Check out Spain: Inflation going up, wages going down, Spaniards getting squeezed big time. How long with they put up with it?

  • #111527
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    Another good chart. Check out Spain: Inflation going up, wages going down, Spaniards getting squeezed big time. How long with they put up with it?

    Well actually, de Guindos has admitted that the PP’s policy of restoring jobs to Spain is by internal devaluation within the Euro zone ie lower wages and proposed cuts in national insurance and taxes. Of course this policy has not come to fruition on the tax side, quite the reverse as a result of EU pressure in order to supply credit (one reason I thought Spain would have been wise to leave the Euro). It has to be said that downwards pressure on wages can be seen in other countries, mainly down to outsourcing, on-shoring and the like. But expect to see yet lower wages within Spain as the “mini-jobs” are brought in. If the PP lasts that long, of course…

  • #111529
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Rajoy was converting all the figures into pesetas again in his speech today…is he hinting or what :mrgreen:

  • #111811
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Rajoy about to go back with his begging bowl again as Spanish Banks’ bad debts surge in June amid a rise in defaults by home builders while deposits shrank: ๐Ÿ˜ฅ

    http://www.djnewsplus.com/rssarticle/SB134521094857083269.html

    I would hold on longer before rushing in to any Spanish property purchase Elizabeth et al, following a quiet spell for Spain it seems things might be about to kick off again ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111815
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Assuming this article is current which I believe it is, then in addition to the poor state of Spain’s residential market it appears that Spain’s commercial property market is equally suffering and in decline.

    http://www.rcanalytics.com/article/1487/Commer … lines.aspx

    3 commercial property transactions registered in Spain during 2nd quarter down from 58 in the previous quarter, one hell of a drop ๐Ÿ™„

  • #114399
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Tinsa say the price of new housing in Spain fell by 6.9% in 2012 and believe property will continue to get cheaper in 2013, whilst El Economista say the falls were 8.7% in Valencia and 7.2% in Andalucia.

  • #114458
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan is quite right when he says how transparent certain posters are with their vain attempts to talk things up and that the audience on here is so small, you would think their lives depend on it but of course it’s not that at all, it’s their financial interests that depend on it. I doubt there are many buyers looking on this site judging by so few posters and they are not going to buy up 2 million unsold homes. There is so much hard evidence available daily that Spanish problems are not going away quickly and even the moderator of this site reckons it could take 20 years to clear the unsold stock but they ignore his words too.

    Expect more social woes and civil unrest for 2013 according to this Guardian article:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/01/sp … ty-deepens

  • #114506
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Didn’t even know Spain had a state owned hotel company called Paradores de Turismo. It lost 85 million euro last year and are now looking at ways of saving money. They have 93 hotels all over Spain. Demonstrations have been held by employees which forced them to retract cost saving meassures. The revised figures are now 24 instead of the 7. 300-1000 people will loose their jobs. 100 million euros in losses since 2009. “The numbers seem to vary”.

    http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2012_4th/Dec12_SpainHotelJobs.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2258391/Spains-luxury-hotel-chain-hit-economic-crisis.html

    Iberia wants to terminate 4500 of the work force but the union doesn’t seem to want to save the company.

    Owning a company in Spain is not something one should do without brass balls.

  • #114508
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Parador’s are long established. The majority of them are in old Palaces, Convents etc. I must say they are immaculately kept. The properties needs more capital/cyclical expenditure than the modern concrete blocks. They use to have a membership by the name of “Amigos de parador” of which I was a member it allowed me usual perks. There were rumours in the late 90’s that they were going to be floated as a public company.

    You dont need brass balls. You needs brains in the first place to not to invest in Spain irrespective of the sector of economy. From a selfish point of view Spain is Ok if you go spend holidays use their bars, hotel etc & leave.

  • #114526
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Ardun, we’ve stayed in several Paradors and have to say that they are one of the really nice things about Spain as the Pousadas are in Portugal. Sitting in a comfortable Parador in a country setting, sipping a Reserva of Gran Reserva Rioja is one of life’s good moments so sorry to hear of their problems, wouldn’t like to see them go or worsen.

    Not sure if Spain’s unemployment problem is going away soon and this is another example, the higher end of things suffering, they can’t let their tourism fail their coffers. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #114543
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This report says that car sales in EU countries have slumped, France and Spain being really affected whilst the UK’s sales have risen strongly. Spain’s is dire and the worst year for sales since records started in 1989.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jan/02 … ance-spain

  • #114544
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    I have stayed in a few Paradors and always enjoyed them (the Parador in an old monastery in Leon was particularly impressive). They are also a good way of attracting tourism to the more far flung parts of Spain, since they are dotted all over the place and generally guarantee a high level of service at a relatively reduced cost (if you hunt around). If they were sold off to a quality Hotel chain then they’d fetch a very good price, however guarantees and financial incentives would need to be in place to guarantee their preservation (most are protected buildings anyway).

  • #114545
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The difficulty for investors will be the staff issues. These Paradors are owned by government and therefore the staff are technically civil servants, many probably with life time contracts. Private investors will not want to inherit that problem.

  • #114551
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’d be interested to hear your views Logan, since your posts are pretty factual and unbiased, on the decline in car sales in Spain and the EU and what it says about the Spanish economy bearing in mind previous posts about new motor investment in Spain? To me this is yet another indicator of how bad things really are in Spain, ie huge unemployment issues, Spaniards not buying many cars, Spaniards not buying properties, so huge reliance on Chinese and Russians to get them out of trouble.

    Generally when an economy is in real trouble, it’s reduced sales of property and cars are a strong indicator, forget stock markets they can be manipulated and people can get very burnt in an instant.

  • #114553
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    One of the principle current obstacles to economic growth in Spain is the lack of liquidity in the banks. Spanish banks are having difficulties borrowing money on international markets at affordable rates that they can pass on to business and consumers. Confidence lenders will see their money returned is very low.

    That said there are signs sentiment towards Spain is easing slightly on the bond markets. Completely due to the ECB standing behind it’s debts. Spain had a good auction today and managed to raise more than the target at favorable rates.

    Until banks begin to lend again to business and then later consumers nothing much will change. In fact I’m pessimistic Spanish consumers will ever return to the volumes of growth their service sector historically saw pre-crisis.

  • #114561
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Peace be with you troubled ones. Marbella was a bad place, you’re out of it now and be grateful. Don’t hate Spain because of it, just remember that if you had hung about you might have had your collar felt.

  • #114590
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ๐Ÿ˜• Que? ๐Ÿ˜•

    The key note to this article says ‘Spain – getting worse, faster’ as it’s bad loans rise to record levels and the green shoots get somewhat burnt in the sun.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-18/spanish-bad-loans-new-record-deteriorate-fastest-pace-june

  • #114843
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Really worrying news for Spain now is that Spanish retail sales slump 10.7% and have fallen for 30 consecutive months with the decline accelerating since the latest austerity measures which have put further pressure on the large numbers of unemployed, whose figures rose above 26% recently.

    Plus the news that Spain’s economy shrank at the fastest pace in more than 3 years in the final quarter of 2012.

  • #114845
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Still at least the economy will be growing by the end of 2013 according to predictions.
    And e-Commerce which rose 20% in 2012, is expected to rise 25% further in 2013 (and there is a lot more scope to improve)

    http://www.eleconomista.es/tecnologia-internet/noticias/4516474/01/13/El-comercio-electronico-crece-un-20-en-Espana-y-factura-12000-millones-en-2012.html

  • #114847
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @caveatemptor wrote:

    Really worrying news for Spain now is that Spanish retail sales slump 10.7% and have fallen for 30 consecutive months with the decline accelerating since the latest austerity measures which have put further pressure on the large numbers of unemployed, whose figures rose above 26% recently.

    Plus the news that Spain’s economy shrank at the fastest pace in more than 3 years in the final quarter of 2012.

    Sales of new cars now down to 1993 levels!

  • #114848
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:

    Still at least the economy will be growing by the end of 2013 according to predictions.
    And e-Commerce which rose 20% in 2012, is expected to rise 25% further in 2013 (and there is a lot more scope to improve)

    http://www.eleconomista.es/tecnologia-internet/noticias/4516474/01/13/El-comercio-electronico-crece-un-20-en-Espana-y-factura-12000-millones-en-2012.html

    Citigroup said it now expects Spain’s economy to contract by 2.2pc this year and another 2pc in 2014, pushing unemployment to 28pc

  • #114849
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @caveatemptor wrote:
    Really worrying news for Spain now is that Spanish retail sales slump 10.7% and have fallen for 30 consecutive months with the decline accelerating since the latest austerity measures which have put further pressure on the large numbers of unemployed, whose figures rose above 26% recently.

    Plus the news that Spain’s economy shrank at the fastest pace in more than 3 years in the final quarter of 2012.

    Sales of new cars now down to 1993 levels!

    Yet Volkswagen, Renault, Ford and Nissan are making major investments in Spanish plants. Must be expecting a lot of export possibilities then?

  • #115118
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Three more bad debts loom for so called cleaned up Spanish Banks according to Reuters
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/01/spai … ZQ20130201

  • #115159
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Venezuela just devalued their currency by 46,5% in response to other countries quantitive easing. The currency wars have just begun.

  • #115164
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    A union leader in Argentina said the prices controls were a sign of inflation out of control. You are right, soon they will have no food on the shelves (again). http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/123789/price-freezing-shows-inflation-is-shooting-up-lescano

    if you want to see a projection of what can happen with the worse possible economic policies, Argentina is the place.

  • #115165
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Argentina is going downhill quick. With that witch they have in control the land will be ruined in no time.

  • #115167
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spanish mortgage interest rates rising according to this:
    http://www.mindfulmoney.co.uk/wp/shaun-richard … ates-rise/

  • #115177
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Ardun wrote:

    Argentina is going downhill quick. With that witch they have in control the land will be ruined in no time.

    Their problems run deeper that one mad woman, its a country destroying itself over generations.

  • #115310
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator
  • #115314
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Unregulated capitalism strikes again, this time it includes a friend of mine.

    A company that made $29 billion last year is closing its Barcelona office and moving the operation to India, so they can save money. Everyone here will be fired, beginning with an 80% layoff under ERE.

    Because $29 billion is not enough.

    http://www.eleconomista.es/catalunya/noticias/4599470/02/13/Los-trabajadores-de-Optum-convocan-una-huelga-para-manana-en-protesta-del-ERE-que-afecta-al-80-de-la-plantilla.html

    And Katy, one reason there are fewer passengers is because of the ridiculous airfare. I paid full fare from the US last year this time and it was just over $700US RT. This year, just under $1000US. And last year, gas prices were higher. The airports in San Francisco and Frankfurt also seemed less busy.

  • #115318
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Gary – it’s not much of a consolation, but many firms now that outsourced to the far east a few years back, are now relocating back to western Europe as the expected savings didn’t really materialise, the process became less efficient, and besides wages are increasing out there.
    As for plane fares rising, at least in Spain the fast rail network is now a lot cheaper when booked in advance. But do make sure to book in advance, otherwise you may miss out on a ticket or pay over the odds.
    http://www.02b.com/en/notices/2013/02/renfe_flooded_by_requests_after_new_ave_rate_scheme_is_passed_3912.php

  • #115320
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Here we go Gary- Telefonica moves its call centre back to Spain from south America. Useful tip on there to make sure you get a local Spanish speaker!

    http://www.lostinsantcugat.com/2013/02/telefonica-decides-to-move-its-call.html

    I doubt these will be the highest paying type of jobs, but even so it shows things are not going in one direction.

  • #115322
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Brilliant. I had endless arguments with the hateful Telefonica….. They told us that the 40 euros per month had ‘FREE’ tv…. free I said, free as in not having to pay for it, free as in a present…’yes’ they said. I asked why then we had to pay 2euros IVA on something which we didn’t pay for and why after two months our bill was more than 80 euros per month. Blah blah, usted, usted from the latino… It wasn’t all their fault but they got a bit of my roth against all things Spanish whilst on the phone there !

    The trouble is that all telephone/mobile companies are the same the world over….

  • #115334
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator
  • #115336
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The optimism regarding the future of the Eurozone is based on nothing more than a few speeches by the President of the ECB and the marginal recovery of the Euro. Investment has certainly increased in recent weeks as a result. That may translate to something more positive but equally it may not.

    My best guess is the Ezone may have bottomed out late 2012 but the recovery will be a long slog with modest indications of improvement. I agree France is looking a weak contender to replace Spain and Portugal. The reason is the French refuse to modernise their labour laws and industrial practices. Hollande believes spending public money will turn their economy round and in any case the unions have so much power he couldn’t achieve it even with the desire. They will bring France to a total standstill. ๐Ÿ™ Rock and hard place springs to mind.

  • #115349
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This Guardian article is saying that investors in Bankia could see their investment wiped out. The Banks have much to answer for.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/14 … -worthless

  • #115355
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The worse thing about all this whiich isn’t mentioned in the article is that many shareholders didn’t know they were buying them. Anyone who has banked in Spain will have had the bank pushing them to buy investment bonds, sign up for a year and your money will be invested in a basket of shares such as telefonica blah, blah. Bankia did the same…except they were economical with the truth. Bankia just used the customers money to buy…you’ve guessed! Bankia shares. So, many ordinary spanish have found themselves owning a few thousand worthless shares.

  • #115356
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Bankia always was known as the amalgamation of several caja savings-banks. Most people knew about the precarious state of the cajas (as opposed to the main commercial banks like BBVA and Santander). Yes it’s strange that anyone was fooled by investing in their shares, but I suppose the selling techniques nowadays are ultra-efficient.
    I don’t see any way that Bankia shares will plummet to one cent each, which is what some of the wilder writers are claiming. That would mean that PP would never get elected again.

  • #115362
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    The worse thing about all this whiich isn’t mentioned in the article is that many shareholders didn’t know they were buying them. Anyone who has banked in Spain will have had the bank pushing them to buy investment bonds, sign up for a year and your money will be invested in a basket of shares such as telefonica blah, blah. Bankia did the same…except they were economical with the truth. Bankia just used the customers money to buy…you’ve guessed! Bankia shares. So, many ordinary spanish have found themselves owning a few thousand worthless shares.

    Yes that’s true Katy. The bank I use in Spain tried it on me. I spent an hour a couple of years ago with the female manager who tried her best to lull me into buying them. I remember the spiel. Investment in A listings only on the Ibex, no risk blar, blar and blar. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ
    I declined because I didn’t trust them. I have years of experience but can easily see how others less cynical would see a potential ‘opportunity’.

    In Spain it’s scandal after scandal. The country deserves better and desperately needs cleaning up.

    Here is another property scandal. http://www.murciatoday.com/cra-estimate-450-properties-on-camposol-are-vulnerable-to-embargo_15062-a.html

  • #115388
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Totally agree logan, it’s something that several of us including katy and yourself have been saying for years on here, but little seems to change. Some of those residents are going to be extremely stressed for some time waiting for a hopefully successful outcome. Look at the Priors, taken years to get 30k and still in their garage.

    I don’t hear about property corruption in France, hear little about it in the UK and Italy, yet for over 10 years it’s been constant news in Spain. Illegal builds, crooked Town Halls, Mayors, Land Grab, bulldozing, ‘B’ money, community problems, promised views disappearing, dodgy developers, lawyers and agents, White Whale scandal, 5 year court waits, the list is endless. The Spanish Government needs to act with serious intent and fast to restore any credibility. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    Fortunately, we know of a few agents on the CDS who have improved, and now transparent. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #115389
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    it’s something that several of us including katy and yourself have been saying for years on here

    I wonder, in the entire history of this board, whether Angie/CaveatEmptor, Katy and Logan have EVER disagreed with each other? Normally sensible, independent posters, even if they share similar views, will always have some area of disagreement.

    I’m not saying they are collaborating to promote a vested interest, but they couldn’t make it more blatant if they were. โ—

  • #115390
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    What vested interest would we have…don’t see any of us putting links on to our mates websites ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115393
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I only have a vested interest in exposing the truth to help others avoid the disasters and rottenness of Spanish property markets which I know intimately well. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

    There is no other public tool to do it. Everything else is bullshit advertising and selling. Mark used to include a forum section of disasters and problem purchasing. That was a useful quick reference for people but it’s has disappeared. Now users have to trawl through many threads and the message gets lost.

  • #115397
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @mgspain wrote:

    I’m not seeing any “agenda” from Angie, Katy, Logan.
    It needs to be made clear that Spain is a risky place to do business.
    Spain is a messy place, but it can be an enjoyable messy place if you know what you’re doing.

    I think that is what we are committed to doing. You would know it was kosher if we recommended something wouldn’t you ๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #115399
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    I only have a vested interest in exposing the truth to help others avoid the disasters and rottenness of Spanish property markets which I know intimately well.

    Not to be provocative, but do you know the percent of all properties sold in Spain that are ‘disasters’? It is a well-established aspect of human behavior that people who do not have any problems rarely say so. But those who do have problems will look for many outlets to complain.

    I’m guessing that the percentage of disasters varies from region to region. I’m also certain that some disasters are due to people not doing their homework.

    When purchasing a place that is for most a big investment, regardless of the location, I would assume that everyone is a crook as a starting point.

    That said, it is appalling just how corrupt the Spanish real estate industry is.

  • #115400
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    Not to be provocative, but do you know the percent of all properties sold in Spain that are ‘disasters’? It is a well-established aspect of human behavior that people who do not have any problems rarely say so. But those who do have problems will look for many outlets to complain.

    I’m guessing that the percentage of disasters varies from region to region. I’m also certain that some disasters are due to people not doing their homework.

    When purchasing a place that is for most a big investment, regardless of the location, I would assume that everyone is a crook as a starting point.

    That’s fair comment Gary I guess the percentage where property purchase goes bad in Spain is less than the ones that don’t but it would be impossible to quantify.

    If this forum did not exist it would be one less opportunity to expose some truths. In the end people make up their own minds and take their own risks. The crazy thing is many people are not even aware there is any risk buying in Spain. ๐Ÿ™

  • #115419
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Thanks mg, it must be baffling, or a conundrum to a couple on here, as to why for years we’ve been pointing out potential pitfalls and scams, but if that’s having a vested interest, so be it, we hopefully will continue the good work. Strangely enough I find myself agreeing with katy and logan again, and mg too, and so does Chris at Viva, yes an estate agent, so not all bad ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Have also recommended Fuengi another agent on a few occasions too, how good is that? ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #115440
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quite big disturbances at the airport in Madrid today when quite a few Iberia employees went on strike.

  • #115441
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes there are a few videos online. Some in Mรกlaga too. Lots of cancellations.

  • #115442
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    A pointless five day strike against the inevitable demise of jobs after the merger with BA. You might as well strike against the weather being poor. It’s just unions making a shallow political point whilst the travelling public suffer. ๐Ÿ™

  • #115443
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    A pointless five day strike against the inevitable demise of jobs after the merger with BA. You might as well strike against the weather being poor. It’s just unions making a shallow political point whilst the travelling public suffer. ๐Ÿ™

    That’s the same way I see it. This is a way for the unions to save face but in all honesty it will just scare away future companies doing business in the country.

  • #115444
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    A pointless five day strike against the inevitable demise of jobs after the merger with BA. You might as well strike against the weather being poor. It’s just unions making a shallow political point whilst the travelling public suffer.

    Yes, the 4,000 employees who just lost their jobs in the worst economy in almost a century are going to live in the luxury while the poor public suffers.

    And if you actually believe that this merger was inevitable, and it is going to serve the travelling public well and was not implemented to enhance the salaries of the CEO’s and executive of these corporations, then I don’t know who you are.

    Every action by unions is not bad. Without them, we’d be working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, including children.

    I am not a member of a union. But I easily tire of the mindless rants about them.

  • #115445
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Gary – I think trade unions when they act responsibly have a vital role to play in society.
    In this instance the pre merger Iberian was a bankrupt airline, hopelessly uncompetitive and overmanned. It was part of the previous Spanish labour law ethos. Provide as little service for the most reward. If you ever traveled on that airline you would understand what I mean.

    BA did them a favour, they will find it very difficult to absorb the rump company that’s left. The unions know full well their case is a lost cause, it’s simply a wrecking game motivated by pure spite.

  • #115448
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Gary – I think trade unions when they act responsibly have a vital role to play in society.
    In this instance the pre merger Iberian was a bankrupt airline, hopelessly uncompetitive and overmanned. It was part of the previous Spanish labour law ethos. Provide as little service for the most reward. If you ever traveled on that airline you would understand what I mean.

    OK, I’ve never flown Iberia so I accept what you say. I did fly Aeroflot under Soviet rule and it was quite thrilling.

    But it is impossible for me to believe that British is doing them a favor. What’s in it for BA? I’m guessing that someone is coming out ahead on the deal.

    Why is it when these “favors” are done, the executives that created the mess are handsomely rewarded and the employees are canned? Stating this another way, why are other industries that are dominated by unions doing well?

  • #115449
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    One more thing: I apologize for the harsh ‘tone’ of my post. Something (gun politics in the US) really set me off and I should have had a Scotch or something before doing anything else.

  • #115454
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    BA wanted the slots and entrance into South America. Iberia is and always was crap. Every flight I have been on with them has been at least an hour late.

  • #115466
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    the job loses were always going to be a feature of the take over and the way i see it is that its only 4000 and not all of them that are out off work

  • #115467
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Average salary of Iberian flight attendant is/was โ‚ฌ50,000 (rising to over โ‚ฌ75,000), 30% more than BA who were about to lay off 3000 people when this artile was written in 2009:

    http://www.hispanidad.com/Breves/sueldo-medio-anual-de-las-azafatas-de-iberia-50000-euros-20091105-132253.html

    Not only have Iberian flight attendants enjoyed very generous pay conditions, they will undoubtedly enjoy a very generous unemplyment settlement, allowing them not to need to work again (while the rest of us whose taxes pay for these parasites will have to work extra).

  • #115469
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    Spanish property firm Reyal Urbis files for insolvency

    MADRID, Feb 19 (Reuters) – Spain’s property market crash claimed another victim on Tuesday, as real estate company Reyal Urbis filed for insolvency after failing to renegotiate debt with its creditors.

    The move takes the property developer, which had 3.6 billion euros ($4.8 billion) of debt at the end of September, closer to becoming Spain’s second-largest bankruptcy after Martinsa Fadesa, which defaulted on 7 billion euros of debt in 2008.

    Dozens of property companies have collapsed in Spain, where house prices have fallen around 40 percent since their 2007 peak. With the country locked in a deep recession, analysts expect prices to fall further still.

    Spain’s banks were crippled by the property market bust, eventually requiring the state to agree a European bailout for its lenders of almost 40 billion euros last year. Indebted property firms have asked banks for debt relief but patience is wearing thin among lenders saddled with soured property assets.

    Reyal Urbis is 70 percent owned by construction magnate Rafael Santamaria and its creditors include Santander, BBVA, Bankia and Banco Popular.

    More here:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/19/spain-urbis-idUSL6N0BJ1KJ20130219

  • #115470
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Reyal Urbis also owe โ‚ฌ400 million to the tax payer and another โ‚ฌ700 million to the bad bank (effectively the tax payer again):

    http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/02/19/economia/1361258682.html

  • #115472
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    chopera and gary, the article doesn’t make the distinction as to whether Real Urbis are a developer or real-estate company, are they both, and if so, is it the developer side that has brought them down rather than the real-estate side? ๐Ÿ™„

    Had the banks involved factored in this added debt to themselves, or, has it come as an extra? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #115712
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Today Hollande of France came out and said that France will be the first to break the deficit rules of the new rules that came into effect in the EMU this januari. The new stability pact didn’t even survive the first two months. What a fool that man is. France joins the club med countries as the worst of clowns.

    What pisses me off are the lame excuses and that they believe the public can be tricked. They use the math in their favour. France will have a budget deficit of 3,7 it is now forecasted which means that every person in france needs to produce about 20% more efficiently to just reach the agreed limit of 0,7%. How realisticly do you think that this is. Hollande will probably come out with some lame excuse and say that he will invent the new internet that will revolutionize how effecient France is.

  • #115714
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    An American tyre company CEO recently stated that ” he would be mad to invest in France ” where people only work for three hours a day. Of course did not go down well will the deluded French.

    I think the CEO was being kind to the French. They may just about work three hours a month. The immigrants are the only ones who work and the French despice them.

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