More Demolitions!

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This topic contains 36 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of angie angie 3 years ago.

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  • #57825
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Two houses owned by Britains have been demolished in Almeria. Another two (also owned by Brits) have been given 30 days to remove their belongings ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    http://www.theentertaineronline.com/news.php?item.2119.6

  • #118482
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    the entertainer on line??? ๐Ÿ˜ฅ ๐Ÿ˜ฅ ๐Ÿ˜ฅ ๐Ÿ˜ฅ ๐Ÿ˜ฅ

  • #118484
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Also reported in the Olive Press too with video ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    The President of homeowners rights group SOHA says ‘Once again the government of Andalucia tarnishes the image of Spain abroad’

    Paul aka UBEDA don’t you have feelings for people affected by demolitions, the ones who were duped at least, and homeowners on unusable golf courses as posted by sooty? You’re sad, too much durian methinks ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118485
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    And of course published in my blog:
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2013/10/15/two-british-owned-homes-demolished-andalucia-yesterday/

    Down in Almeria they must be either so rich they don’t need the money the are losing by frightening away foreign investors, or simply mad.

  • #118486
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Totally agree there Mark ๐Ÿ˜‰ What is wrong with them, I thought many of these homes were going to be legalised, in this market they need to show they’re addressing the problems not adding to them?

    Is this more of a regional thing, and if so, is the North safer for investment? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118490
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Totally agree there Mark ๐Ÿ˜‰ What is wrong with them, I thought many of these homes were going to be legalised, in this market they need to show they’re addressing the problems not adding to them?

    Is this more of a regional thing, and if so, is the North safer for investment? ๐Ÿ™„

    no. In Andalusia (at least) where possible they will try to legalise the properties as long as proper access can be given, not on protected lands, etc…

    Let’s be realistic about this, Spain cannot legalise all these properties. Many are on protected lands, those need to go. Those properties on urban land, where the builders did not bother with the licenses, etc… those should be legalised (as long as up to standards). Those built on ‘rustic’ land. Case by case really.
    And in general this seems to be how its proceeding.

  • #118491
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The Developers association should, along with the Government, set up a compensation scheme. The tin pot Ayuntamientos with crooked Mayors were just as much to blame…let them share the cost. The majority will never be legalised. I agree with many being demolished, especially those in protected areas. If not the same thing will happen as before…build and be damned. Compensation for all though who bought in good faith…which was most of them.

  • #118497
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Mail gets its teeth into the story. It’s a disaster for the individuals involved, but the biggest losers will be Spain, in particular Almeria. Selling homes in the sunshine to northern Europeans like the Brits is the best business the region has got, and this is a great way to go about destroying the business.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465761/Couples-dream-Spanish-home-demolished-planning-officials-villa-built-rogue-developer-permission.html?ito=feeds-videoxml

  • #118498
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    I do feel for the couple. must be a terrible experience.

    I notice though that this is the second time they have owned in Spain. bought in the 92, sold in 2005 and then bought this property.
    I notice no comment about their lawyer doing or not doing his job.

    I do wish these articles gave a bit more detail and depth to this stories.

  • #118499
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    How much do you want to know ๐Ÿ˜• What difference does it make if they bought before. I bought and sold a few in Spain. There are 4 houses, 2 demolished and 2 under order to be. All owned by Brits ๐Ÿ™„

    Short video on Telegraph article

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10388701/British-couples-200000-Spanish-dream-home-demolished-in-planning-row.html

  • #118500
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    How much do you want to know ๐Ÿ˜• What difference does it make if they bought before. I bought and sold a few in Spain. There are 4 houses, 2 demolished and 2 under order to be. All owned by Brits ๐Ÿ™„

    Short video on Telegraph article

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10388701/British-couples-200000-Spanish-dream-home-demolished-in-planning-row.html

    Hi Katy,
    what I want to know is how they landed up buying an illegal property.
    Was is they just trusted the person who sold it to them?
    Were they told not all paperwork was in order ‘but you know how things are in spain’?
    Were they actually lied too, or shown false documents?
    Was their lawyer incompetent?

    EDIT: actually the link you supply actually makes it clear.

    Mr and Mrs Brooks bought the Spanish villa in 2005 and a year later discovered it was illegal and already had a demolition order, a fact that was hidden from them by the estate agent and the bogus solictor who handled the sale.

  • #118501
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The Mayor of the area received a prison sentence for signing planning permissions…says it all.

    I suppose they finished up with an illegal property the same way as 20,000+ other Brits.

  • #118502
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    The Mayor of the area received a prison sentence for signing planning permissions…says it all.

    I suppose they finished up with an illegal property the same way as 20,000+ other Brits.

    fact is, if they did trust a dodgy lawyer, although planning permission was given (through townhall) I assume the licencia de primer occupacion, etc… never materialized.
    And of course there was no reason not to trust that the lawyer would do a correct job by them

  • #118503
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Andrew, the answers to some of your questions are in the article ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ™„ eg how they came to buying an illegal property (lying developer) , did they trust the person selling (obviously they did, he was so believable), was their lawyer incompetent (must have been) etc Everyone should remember his name, maybe time for a Rogue Traders permanent feature here ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿ˜ก

    This developer is Francisco Pedrosa, remember his name โ— ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118505
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I notice no comment about their lawyer doing or not doing his job.”

    It is irrelevant what the lawyer did or did not do for reasons that even if the lawyer was negligent no action would have been taken by the “Colegio de abagado”. I always wonder the wisdom of having a lawyer in Spain specially where people are buying an apartment in a block. Either the whole block is illegal or not. Forum users are aware that Spaniards do not use a lawyer in property transactions & when Spanish lawyers see Brits asking for their services โ‚ฌ signs appears everywhere for them. Their fee of 1% of the value of the purchase for doing very little is the most easy money they would have earned.

    I note that in all this the Notary is not accountable. Isn’t is his/her job to ensure that a transaction is legal. He/she should know the developments on his patch that are legal or not !

    The experienced members on the forum who maybe resident in Spain or not will be able to tell you if the property/building is legal or illegal. How is it that a Notary does not know ??

    When, I bought my property the developer took a reservation deposit of around โ‚ฌ2000 and did not ask me to sign a private contract for nearly five months as he was waiting for the planning permission from the Council once he had this I was asked to sign a private contract. ( I had no issues of providing the โ‚ฌ2000 as it was paid by credit card )

  • #118506
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Andrew, the answers to some of your questions are in the article ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ™„ eg how they came to buying an illegal property (lying developer) , did they trust the person selling (obviously they did, he was so believable), was their lawyer incompetent (must have been) etc Everyone should remember his name, maybe time for a Rogue Traders permanent feature here ๐Ÿ’ก ๐Ÿ˜ก

    This developer is Francisco Pedrosa, remember his name โ— ๐Ÿ™„

    Hi Angie,
    I mentioned that a few post above yours.
    Mr and Mrs Brooks bought the Spanish villa in 2005 and a year later discovered it was illegal and already had a demolition order, a fact that was hidden from them by the estate agent and the bogus solictor who handled the sale.

  • #118507
    Profile photo of The Australian
    The Australian
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    “I notice no comment about their lawyer doing or not doing his job.”

    It is irrelevant what the lawyer did or did not do for reasons that even if the lawyer was negligent no action would have been taken by the “Colegio de abagado”. I always wonder the wisdom of having a lawyer in Spain specially where people are buying an apartment in a block. Either the whole block is illegal or not. Forum users are aware that Spaniards do not use a lawyer in property transactions & when Spanish lawyers see Brits asking for their services โ‚ฌ signs appears everywhere for them. Their fee of 1% of the value of the purchase for doing very little is the most easy money they would have earned.

    I note that in all this the Notary is not accountable. Isn’t is his/her job to ensure that a transaction is legal. He/she should know the developments on his patch that are legal or not !

    The experienced members on the forum who maybe resident in Spain or not will be able to tell you if the property/building is legal or illegal. How is it that a Notary does not know ??

    When, I bought my property the developer took a reservation deposit of around โ‚ฌ2000 and did not ask me to sign a private contract for nearly five months as he was waiting for the planning permission from the Council once he had this I was asked to sign a private contract. ( I had no issues of providing the โ‚ฌ2000 as it was paid by credit card )

    I think you are missing a point:

    Local mayor Pedro Llamas also illegally authorised the supply of water and electricity to the home and also received a suspended prison term.

  • #118509
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    I note that in all this the Notary is not accountable. Isn’t is his/her job to ensure that a transaction is legal. He/she should know the developments on his patch that are legal or not !

    Easy, language barrier.
    I’m not being flippant, by the way, but I am willing to bet that in most of these cases the lawyer also acts as translator.
    For the Spanish, they trust the notary. If a document is not present it is reflected in the title deeds, the property description is taken from the registry, etc… If they have any questions they ask.
    But the notary is there is to register an official transaction: So if the notary says “ยฟEl comprador entiende que registralmente la vivienda solo tiene unos cincuenta metros y el terreno es rustica? Translation: “Just confirming that you have seen the property and know what your buying?”. Answer from buyer: “yes, si!”

  • #118510
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ” I think you are missing a point:”

    Would you please point it out to me ?

    @ Fuengi. While the notary is pointing out what one is buying, the price etc. Should he not be pointing out that the property is illegal ???.

    In the over all scheme of things a few M2 short has less of a grave consequences than having the whole property demolished. In this instance if there was an extra M2 square built than permitted. The owners would have had their boundry walls demolished or hedges taken off.

  • #118514
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Hi Shakeel,

    actually that’s the point. the example I gave shows the danger. If using my example the buyer bought the property, which in reality is a villa (let’s say 150m2) with pool, etc… Then it could turn out to be in breach of zoning regulations, etc… There would be no mention of it being illegal. It is just not fully covered in the registry. Simply having ‘irregularities’ does not make it illegal….
    If on requesting the details from the registry it said ILLEGAL, then as i understand it the notary could not sign the title deeds.

    This is how I understand it anyway.

  • #118523
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It seems to me that demolitions like these are selective by the Junta, do we generally get to hear about demolitions of Brit’s homes ๐Ÿ˜ฏ or is it spread amongst other nationalities’ and Spaniards’ properties? Or is the British Press and media quicker to air these issues? ๐Ÿ™„

    Does anyone know if it is happening in other Spanish regions? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118524
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    It seems to me that demolitions like these are selective by the Junta, do we generally get to hear about demolitions of Brit’s homes ๐Ÿ˜ฏ or is it spread amongst other nationalities’ and Spaniards’ properties? Or is the British Press and media quicker to air these issues? ๐Ÿ™„

    Does anyone know if it is happening in other Spanish regions? ๐Ÿ™„

    Hi Angie, I believe it has happened in several communities. I sure I’ve heard of it also happening in Catalonia, Valencia and in Andalusia.

    We get to hear about the british demolitions for several reasons:
    First british press is going to write articles of interest brits.
    Second alot of brits got ‘sucked into’ the whole buy a country property either due to budget, tv shows, etc…
    third, there were enough british estate agents, or with british salesman, doing a less than ideal job for their clients…

    I know of quite a few spanish that have lost properties after losing court cases, etc…

  • #118525
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I still read the Spanish news every day and I can only remember 2 Spanish demolitions in Andalucรญa in 15 years…both were blatant disregard for the law and no comparison with this case or the Priors.

    I read El Pais and Diario sur most days and have never seen this recent demolition covered. If it was then it must have been buried somewhere. Would have been on the front page if they were Spaniards. Frakly the Spanirs could not care less about a demolition concerning foreigners! Saw this on another forum.

    This on the other hand, was in Cantoria, between the village and the ring-road. You can see it from the mayor’s window. The local policeman can see it from his window too. Yet, it took nine years to knock it down, leaving a large hole.
    And a larger hole in the local economy too.
    In Vera, in the area where the Prior’s house was demolished back in January 2008 (!), the Junta de Andalucรญa has a long-term plan to build a city of 70,000 souls (to serve and justify the AVE train station – long story). So the stuff about the water, the sewage and the damage to the environment is really just political expediency.

    BTW a large villa owned by a Spaniard who is a Civil Servant stand right next to the Prior’s demolished home…totally legal…says it all ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118530
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant
  • #118533
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Only read ๐Ÿ™„

    One is actually the case we are discussing above. The other I remember. The developer has been ordered to demolish. Some or all of the occupants are Brits. Another makes it clear that he developer never had a licence, slightly different no? Despite being ordered several times to demolish he hasn’t done so….no sending in the Town hall to do it like Cantoria!

  • #118531
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Only read ๐Ÿ™„

    One is actually the case we are discussing above. The other I remember. The developer has been ordered to demolish. Some or all of the occupants are Brits. Another makes it clear that he developer never had a licence, slightly different no? Despite being ordered several times to demolish he hasn’t done so….no sending in the Town hall to do it like Cantoria!

    Katy there all sorts of cases and situations. Some properties were built on protected land or went against the PGOU, other involved dodgy mayors, others built more than they should, etc….

    The fact is a lot of people are going to be affected by this, both the ones who bought in good faith and those that thought they could get away with it.

  • #118538
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ๐Ÿ™„ “bought in good faith ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ” Don’t be sooooo ridiculous!!!!! nobody spends their life savings buying in good faith ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„ !!!!! this website has reiterated time and time again to use an independent lawyer etc etc ……….

    why do you think in GB everybody has a full survey????????? good faith is rubbish and surprised to hear you encourage this!!!!

    all these innocent lambs in almeria(cantoria) bought in good faith despite abundant publicity in papers, tv etc that buyers should beware of the sharks swimming in the local bars and Brit run kitchen run agencies!!

  • #118541
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    “Find a good independent Lawyer!๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #118542
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    Ubeda,

    First, when I am being ‘ridiculous’ I like to think its a bit more obvious.
    Second I am not encouraging people to buy in good faith, but I am willing to believe that some people did. I have quite a few example of people who bought in good faith through me, and I like to think I did a good job for them.
    Third, many buyers I think were/are ignorant of the law/customs of other countries. Many simply assume that it’s the ‘same as back home’.
    Fourth in 2005 there was less publicity in the UK press (for example) talking about illegal builds, court cases, etc…
    Fifth, greed blinds people.

    @katy wrote:

    “Find a good independent Lawyer!๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    come on katy, you know there are plenty out there.

  • #118546
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    Ubeda,

    First, when I am being ‘ridiculous’ I like to think its a bit more obvious.
    Second I am not encouraging people to buy in good faith, but I am willing to believe that some people did. I have quite a few example of people who bought in good faith through me, and I like to think I did a good job for them.
    Third, many buyers I think were/are ignorant of the law/customs of other countries. Many simply assume that it’s the ‘same as back home’.
    Fourth in 2005 there was less publicity in the UK press (for example) talking about illegal builds, court cases, etc…
    Fifth, greed blinds people.

    @katy wrote:

    “Find a good independent Lawyer!๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    come on katy, you know there are plenty out there.

    Fuengi

    I don’t think Ubeda knows what he is talking about. When I was looking to buy property in Spain in 2004/5 there was very little if any publicity about illegal builds

    In terms of good independent lawyers there are certainly some around but I wouldn’t like to put a figure on it

    If the story that I have been told by someone in that area is correct, then I have less sympathy for those affected by the recent demolition than I would normally have. I am sorry that I can’t go into detail because it would break a confidence. Having said that I still feel that the demolition was the wrong course of action.

    Richard

  • #118548
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Funny how some expats want to blame the victims…perhaps they are afraid their houses will lose their value. Reminds me of stories my relatives used to tell about the Jews in Germany. Some played the appeasement game, turning against other Jews…until they came for them.

    Anyway…back to Lawyers! Yes I am sure there are some honest ones around, we had one for years. My neighbour in Marbella was a Lawyer and had good reports from friends. In defence of the Lawyers (some) I doubt many of them could have got past the smoke-screens being put up by the corrupt Mayors etc. In most cases the paperwork was in order. Take the recent case with the Mayor of Alcaucรญn (Axarquia) another 40 people were implicated with him ๐Ÿ˜ฏ Including the Assistant Chief of Architecture of Malaga Provincial Government, Jose Francisco Mora. They were actually altering official databases on the Catastral…even Lawyers wouldn’t have known until the shit hit the fan. now thousands of owners mainly British are left with worthless properties.

  • #118549
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Paul aka UBEDA says ‘why do you think in GB everybody has a full survey????????’ Wrong Ubeda ๐Ÿ™„ many don’t :roll:. We’ve bought loads of new builds in the UK over the years and never needed a survey, 1st 2 years covered for defects by builder/developer, then structural eventually gets taken over by NHBC although with difficulties, for remaining 8 years should things go wrong which none of ours did :mrgreen: Anyway, people buying new build on mortgage feel their B. Society/Bank quick survey for valuation purposes will suffice.Then again with period homes in the UK, if property has stood without foundations for 5-600 years in the UK and not fallen down, many don’t bother with full survey, maybe woodworm and/or damp survey.

    Ubeda since when has a survey pointed out whether a property is illegal or not (assume it’s the same in Spain), that’s the lawyer’s job in the UK plus the Council searches? ๐Ÿ™„

    Richard, we bought in Spain some 12 years ago, I can’t recall anyone mentioning illegal builds either, the main problem at the time was Land Grab in Valencia region ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Lastly both Andrew and katy are correct that people bought in ‘good faith’ am sure katy did, we did, 1000’s did, but the lawyers then were all in bed with those rogue agents, I’m sure Andrew sells property in ‘good faith’ as he says ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #118574
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Lastly both Andrew and katy are correct that people bought in ‘good faith’ am sure katy did, we did, 1000’s did, but the lawyers then were all in bed with those rogue agents, I’m sure Andrew sells property in ‘good faith’ as he says ๐Ÿ˜›

    NO!!!! ๐Ÿ˜ฅ
    I cannot sell a property on good faith! Seller need to supply all documentation.

    I have had people buy from me in good faith, but I won’t sell a property on good faith (alone).

  • #118575
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    You surprise me Andrew, you would sell based purely on all documentation from seller, however do you just accept all is ok or do you also go through the documentation? If so that’s leaving yourself ‘wide open’ to criticism ๐Ÿ˜ฏ Surely ALL your buyers have bought from you in ‘good faith’, not ‘I have had people buy from me in good faith’, it smacks of some do buy in good faith and some don’t ๐Ÿ™„

    Are you also suggesting you are prepared to sell anyone’s property even if you know things are not right? ๐Ÿ˜• ๐Ÿ™„

  • #118576
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    You surprise me Andrew, you would sell based purely on all documentation from seller, however do you just accept all is ok or do you also go through the documentation? If so that’s leaving yourself ‘wide open’ to criticism ๐Ÿ˜ฏ Surely ALL your buyers have bought from you in ‘good faith’, not ‘I have had people buy from me in good faith’, it smacks of some do buy in good faith and some don’t ๐Ÿ™„

    Are you also suggesting you are prepared to sell anyone’s property even if you know things are not right? ๐Ÿ˜• ๐Ÿ™„

    If someone buys a property through us, I will help them throughout the full process, show the documentation, etc… that everything is as we say. In many cases I am the translator at title deeds, etc…. To me that is a large amount of trust. And I do my best to show them that it is deserved. I will deal with all retentions for them via the notary

    BUT I always say that you should have an independent lawyer/gestor, someone other than the agent to translate the title deeds, etc… Why? Because I would in there place.

    regarding selling. we would never try to sell properties like the ones mentioned on the thread. But just as easily a property is in the land registry as a 4 bed, but its now a 2 bed (due to works) in reality. Not going to advertise it as a 4 bed, but as a 2, and simply make sure the buyer knows why. Hope that clear?

    To sell a property we need all documentation on the property and it must be reviewed.

    And let’s be honest, who on here would automatically trust an estate agent????
    The sad fact is I work in an industry that has not got the best of reputations. I hope that by the end of a purchase, people realize that we are not all the same! And hopefully recommend us (of course!).

  • #118577
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    sorry if that a bit of a wafflle, been a long busy day.

  • #118640
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This article shows it’s not just Brits who have their homes demolished, happens to Spaniards as this recent case shows:

    http://www.costa-news.com/costa-del-sol-news/i … ball-twice

    There are a large number of illegal homes on the hillsides all around Malaga, the authorities do fly over in helicopters looking for extensions and the like which have no planning approval, even swimming pools constructed without approval. ๐Ÿ™„

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