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This topic contains 81 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 10 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #52178
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quick question: –

    This forum says “Ask the forum any questions you have about buying, owning and selling property in Spain”
    This forum is the best that I’ve seen for some time and it’s given me, and probably countless other people a great deal of information gained the hard way and I, for one, would like to express my thanks for that.

    However, from some responses to posts that I’ve seen it seems that some people are not happy about what they consider to be inappropriate posts for this category so, if you have a question or topic that’s not particulary property-related, where do you post it then?

  • #65307
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maybe Mark could provide another section ❓

  • #65312
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    What do you suggest? An ‘anything but property’ section? Ideas please.
    Mark

  • #65329
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    HI Mark.

    Why not have the “general forum” for general topics

    and

    a “property forum” for al question related to property. Buying & selling, electricity, etc…

  • #65330
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Mark,
    I think that General Forum should really be general topics rather than property problems or queries only because “General” implies exactly that – general topics.
    Perhaps it would be better to have all of the property-related topics under a General Property Forum instead and leave the General Forum for everything else?
    It would attract a lot more people I think because everyone contributing to this site seems to have some knowledge that would be useful or even valuable to others dreaming of moving to Spain, whether it be property knowledge or basic day-to-day stuff that everyone living in Spain encounters but to those not living in Spain it’s all a bit mysterious.

    As you know, there are other sites similar to this one but they do tend to be under-utilised and a bit insular. This site is probably the best that I’ve encountered so far and is a very interesting source of information on Spain, the Spanish, the country itself and of course the Bureaucracy.
    Get more people logging-on and who knows – this could be THE SITE that people go to for information. The possibilities are endless.

    stevmk2

  • #65331
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ah at last some recognition that the members of the forum also have a lot of useful, necessary, and positive information to help people make their mind up about Spain. whilst all these other things may not directly relate to property they are all fundemental in the process of deciding to buy a Spanish Property and then lead into the general forum, and settling in forum.

    Mark, how about a seperate forum called simply “all about Spain”

    Jim

  • #65334
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Mark,

    I have a couple of suggestions. What about some forums that are specific to an area….Blanca, Calida, Sol…..etc.

    The forum is great but there is a lot of negative postings (quite rightly)from some of the very bad situations on the Sol which could be contained in 1 catagory and then other areas and topics could be more visable on the first page.

    Another suggestion is that, in general (but not exclusively)most postings are about problems for buyers on Costa Del Sol and if I was a buyer now I would be very worried that this aplies to all Spain. I work on Blanca and Calida and many of the problems from the Sol never happen in our region. So what about a forum for…..” I bought in *****area and im happy and can recommend it because” Or something like this.

    Best wishes

    Bernard

  • #65336
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Orihuela mayor in court for town planning irregularities.

    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/a … 6053.shtml

    I wonder if anyone really knows the extent of corruption in relation to the construction industry.

    According to the Spanish press the G. Civil have been asked to compile a list of all illegal builds throughout Spain, not just the Costa del Sol.

  • #65347
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @blawes1 wrote:

    I work on Blanca and Calida and many of the problems from the Sol never happen in our region.

    Bernard

    I’m sorry Bernard – but reading Dorothy’s link makes me feel that postings by property agents such as yourself and Jiminspain would not mean a thing on a new ‘general’ forum when you come out with such statements as your one above.

    This is exactly why I, for one, am not interested in reading ‘positive blurb’ by agents on this forum.
    Most of us have listened to enough of that in real life (to last us a lifetime), without coming on our ‘puters to read more.

    Personally – just to really put the cat amongst the pigeons, I think professionals in the property business in Spain, who – if one is honest, do have a personal agenda to sell property – should not be posting to advise/guide/recommend anything re. the advantages of their particular regions. Too much conflict of interest.

    Keep the forum for Joe Public and the great lawyers who help with legal advice !
    O.K. boys….your turn. 😆

    Mark – have just looked at a couple of other forums who invite threads of a more general nature (as against property-biased ones).
    With threads like ‘Desperately seeking a good cabaret venue’, and ‘Looking for a mobile hairdresser’ – do you really want to go down that route?
    A more ‘general’ section may start off with informative contributions re. various regions in Spain etc. – but a ‘general forum’ is just that, and would soon be a place where such ‘alternative subjects’ would appear.

    Why is this forum so successful and often praised as ‘one of the best’?
    Because regarding property issues, it is.
    One forum cannot be all things to all people and at the same time be as successful as this one is.
    There is one forum I know that tries to be and has many different categories. And the property section? Has maybe a couple of postings a day if they’re lucky, and more often than not the question doesn’t get an answer.

    Would you go to Sainsburys to buy trousers or would you rather go to a Gent’s specialist shop? 😉

    Barbara

  • #65351
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Barbara wrote
    Personally – just to really put the cat amongst the pidgeons, I think professionals in the property business in Spain, who – if one is honest, do have a personal agenda to sell property – should not be posting to advise/guide/recommend anything re. the advantages of their particular regions. Too much conflict of interest.

    Personally Barbara I recall doing nothing to promote myself, my business, any property or developments. I have made references to particular areas of Spain because that is where I live and I happen to like it and think its a good area. My profile has no reference to my business or my contact details and I have not sought to gain any commercial advantage though postings or PM’s.

    My only motive for joining this forum was just like yours to help anyone if possible who has bought or considering buying in Spain. Still I guess I am guilty by association.

    Your turn Barbara.

    Jim

  • #65353
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Re: focus. I agree with you Barbara. There are many other forums to choose from if you want general interest. It is the property-focus and high quality content (a team effort from all contributors) that makes this forum unique. Let’s keep it as it is for now, review in 6 months.

    Re: agents participating. I disagree with you Barbara. I appreciate the contribution of experienced and thoughtful agents in this forum. Their knowledge is of great value to anyone interested in buying and selling property in Spain. If they get too commercial I deal with it. And I for one don’t have a problem with agents, or anyone else for that matter, pointing out the benefits of a particular region.

    Mark

  • #65355
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Barbara….Ouch….What was that for??

    Im sorry you didnt like my statement (“I work on Blanca and Calida and many of the problems from the Sol never happen in our region”) but it is a fact. I have been selling for 14 years and every client has Escritura, LFO and I can share a drink with any of them at any time.

    Reading through your posts I can see you had a bad time but please don’t tar me with the same brush as who ever you dealt with. This was my point about not seeing the same problems in my area.

    Please take a bit more time when reading what I said. I didnt mention a new “general forum”. I suggested region specific forums and a forum for buyers who can recommend the area they have bought in. You wont find any mention of a self promotion area for agents.

    What is strange with your posting is that you want to strangle debate in an open forum by choosing who to ban from posting. Many agents etc etc that come here offer good advice, generally of a better quality than “Joe Public” can offer and do it without looking for business.

    Forums should be open to all.

    Best wishes

    Bernard

  • #65356
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    FORUM

    An online discussion group. Online services and bulletin board services (BBS’s) provide a variety of forums, in which participants with common interests can exchange open messages. Forums are sometimes called newsgroups (in the Internet world) or conferences

    http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/F/forum.html

    Incase anyone is interested 😉

  • #65357
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree with Mark and Barbara.

    This is the Spanish PROPERTY insight forum. It should stay that way as there are dozens of general chat boards for people to join if they just want “chat”

    I don’t have a problem with agents posting “we’re the good guys honest” as long as they SAY that they are agents. Then I just discount most of what they say = thats my perogative, the same as if they are a lawyer I take time to read it carefully.

    A forum is by its nature open to all, it’s up to the contributors to only post relevant comments. Any obvious abuse or Troll type comments it’s the Administrators right to delete them.

  • #65358
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    sorry to say this but people like banushouse and barbara kill forums, they are the most persistent “PUT-DOWNERS” on here, always got a bad word for everything.

    it has got to the point that everytime i see “charlie” in the title i know already how th post is going to go.

  • #65359
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    This forum is a serious and informative one designed to cover ALL questions for ALL of Spain .
    Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can understand that and the carefully worded suggestions that people requesting advice on anything other than property will degenerate this forum to level of some the “chatty ,but also necessary, forums ” I personally find insulting to my intelligence.

    Surely we are here to learn and also pass on knowledge we may possess relating to our areas of Spain. Surprisingly not all people who buy here have mega problems and this can surely be stated when addressing someone who has if , and when, it is deemed necessary. Which isn’t really often enough to cause this controversy.

    A great deal has been written about agents on here. If they are not promoting themselves …where is the harm. By the same token how do we know that people who have only negative comments about lawyers ,agents and developers don’t themselves have a hidden agenda. We don’t, and that what’s make this forum work.

    Should any unfortunate person dare stray onto it and ask a question that is deemed “inappropriate or mundane” then hopefully they will be redirected to a more pertinant site politely and without sarcasm and ridicule.

  • #65363
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject:
    sorry to say this but people like banushouse and barbara kill forums, they are the most persistent “PUT-DOWNERS” on here, always got a bad word for everything.

    thats actually incorrect but i dont care enough to argue with you.

  • #65364
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    no probs, i actually think its incorrect that you think its incorrect but im not going to argue either

  • #65368
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mark wrote:

    Re: agents participating. I disagree with you Barbara. I appreciate the contribution of experienced and thoughtful agents in this forum. Their knowledge is of great value to anyone interested in buying and selling property in Spain. If they get too commercial I deal with it. And I for one don’t have a problem with agents, or anyone else for that matter, pointing out the benefits of a particular region.

    Mark

    I’d just like to point out that I have absolutely nothing against Real Estate Agents and that I find them essential purchasing property in Spain (just like hiring a lawyer is if you are a foreigner). I think many of them are very respectable professionals and I deal with them on a daily basis. It’s only a few big ones which tar the rest.

    I’m only concerned with flawed legal advice, whether it comes from Agents, Lawyers, developers or whomever.

    I like having agents posting in this forum revealing their different points of view and I find it very insightful as well.

    Spain is a beautiful country and sometimes in the forums we overcriticise everything here, myself included. Although many people have problems buying property in Spain, they are really a minority, countless others purchase property in Spain without any problems and live here very happily.

    Also I don’t agree with splitting up the forum for all the different coasts we have in Spain. I would only read the posts for my area, that’s for sure. I think we should keep it as a “general spanish property insight” forum.

  • #65374
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Whilst spain is perfectly entitled to his/her opinion I think the comments made re Barbara are unjustified.

    IMO she and others are motivated by not wanting to see others ripped off by some of Spains roque developers.

    Myself, and probably many others have learned a great deal from this forum, in particular info on Bank guarantees, thanks to Barbara, Drakan and the other lawyers who willingly give their time.

  • #65380
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Being a newcomer to this forum I too have to say that I have found it great and very informative.
    There have been times when you can sense tension between forum members, however, no one can deny I’m sure that the comments from members like “Barbara” must be a tremendous help for people seeking advice who might have already bought.(you can see many replys offering thanks) There is obviously a great deal of knowledge that can be gleaned from experience which she and people like her, are fortunately for us, happy to share and which people like myself can keep in mind when the time comes to buy.
    On other threads comments from members like Jiminspain and Melosine who might be helping people out like me in the very early stages of relocating to Spain and who ask the price of chips! have been of great help to me and I feel like I’m getting a feel for the place with the help of this forum.

    It’s all relative some points that might be deemed as trivial to the poor person involved in a legal battle over land grab will be deemed as important to others.
    I’m with Melosine and suggest a polite reply perhaps, to direct the person where to go to have their thread answered if it is felt that they are in the wrong place!
    I have noticed in the defense of people wanting to ask general questions not related to property, that there is not a clear definition of where to go but now I fear I may be told that this is called the “Spanish Property Insight Forum” so I should clear off, hope not!!!!!
    All in all I think this is the best forum with something for everyone and we are all entitled to our say. 😆 Thanks to all for taking the time to chip in

  • #65381
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Drakan wrote:

    @mark wrote:
    Re: agents participating. I disagree with you Barbara. I appreciate the contribution of experienced and thoughtful agents in this forum. Their knowledge is of great value to anyone interested in buying and selling property in Spain. If they get too commercial I deal with it. And I for one don’t have a problem with agents, or anyone else for that matter, pointing out the benefits of a particular region.

    Mark

    I’d just like to point out that I have absolutely nothing against Real Estate Agents and that I find them essential purchasing property in Spain (just like hitring a lawyer is if you are a foreigner). I think many of them are very respectable professionals and I deal with them on a daily basis. It’s only a few big ones who tar the rest.

    I’m only concerned with flawed legal advice, whether it comes from Agents, Lawyers, developers or whomever.

    I like having agents posting in this forum revealing their different points of view and I find it very insightful as well.

    Spain is a beautiful country and sometimes in the forums we overcriticise everything here, myself included. Although many people have problems buying property in Spain, they are really a minority, countless others purchase property in Spain without any problems and live here very happily.

    Also I don’t agree with splitting up the forum for all the different coasts we have in Spain. I would only read the posts for my area, that’s for sure. I think we should keep it as a “general spanish property insight” forum.

    Was that supposed to say hitting a Lawyer or hiring one!!!

  • #65385
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Personally – just to really put the cat amongst the pigeons, I think professionals in the property business in Spain, who – if one is honest, do have a personal agenda to sell property – should not be posting to advise/guide/recommend anything re. the advantages of their particular regions. Too much conflict of interest.

    Barbara

    ……should not be posting to advise/guide/recommend anything re. the advantages of their particular regions.
    I was referring to the statement by Blawes regarding his region.

    I did not write that Agents should not post at all.

    Mark wrote: “And I for one don’t have a problem with agents, or anyone else for that matter, pointing out the benefits of a particular region”.
    Neither do I, Mark – not one bit. As long as the comments give a truthful picture.

    The article stated:
    “The anti-corruption prosecutor, Felipe Briones, has presented 16 separate cases to the courts, which implicate the Mayor, the governing team at the Town Hall, property developers and other businessmen”.

    Does this ring any bells with anybody?

    Now read Blawes’ post:

    @blawes1 wrote:

    Another suggestion is that, in general (but not exclusively)most postings are about problems for buyers on Costa Del Sol and if I was a buyer now I would be very worried that this aplies to all Spain. I work on Blanca and Calida and many of the problems from the Sol never happen in our region.

    Bernard

    So to all of those who disagree with me on this, and of course you are all entitled to your opinion , I stand by what I say having read Dorothy’s link:

    @charlie wrote:

    I’m sorry Bernard – but reading Dorothy’s link makes me feel that postings by property agents such as yourself and Jiminspain would not mean a thing on a new ‘general’ forum when you come out with such statements as your one above.

    Barbara

    It is just my opinion.
    Mark asked for our thoughts, and this happens to be mine. Banushouse happens to agree with me. The others of you don’t. So what?
    Is it really necessary to be quite so aggressive just because we don’t have the same opinion?
    And where does insulting anyone’s intelligence come into this just because we think that a general chat type of forum (as against dealing with property issues) is not a good idea?
    It is just our opinion, for goodness sake. No-one is insulting anyone’s intelligence.

    As for asking “how do we know that people who have only negative comments about lawyers ,agents and developers don’t themselves have a hidden agenda”……I hope that is not a serious question, because if it is, I would find that rather insulting.
    It is only some lawyers, agents and developers who receive negative comments, and that is usually because there is a problem.
    Is some ulterior motive now to be read into people’s posts 😯 ?

    I can assure you I have no hidden agenda whatsoever. Our court case is now over, and am very happily living a peaceful life on a beautiful Greek island.
    The only agenda for me sitting on my computer and missing out on some of the sunshine outside is to try and contribute something that may be of interest/help to others, having learnt a few things along the way during our experience.
    I happen to think that Katerina makes some very helpful legal contributions where she can. To suggest our time is spent with an ‘agenda in mind’ is an absolute nonsense. To quote, “anyone with a modicum of intelligence”… would surely know that without questioning it.

    As for:

    @spain wrote:

    sorry to say this but people like banushouse and barbara kill forums, they are the most persistent “PUT-DOWNERS” on here, always got a bad word for everything.

    This month, Mark’s forum reached a record numer of registered users (over a thousand), a record number of posts (over a thousand) and a record number of registered members on the forum at any one time (44).
    If Banushouse and myself ‘kill forums’, and considering we have been posting here for about a year with over 270 posts between us – all I can say is we are doing a lousy job.

    @spain wrote:

    it has got to the point that everytime i see “charlie” in the title i know already how th post is going to go.

    Spain, I apologise if my posts have become so ‘predictable’ for you, but now and then I hope some people find maybe a few of them of interest.
    For example I am very heartened, especially after the way this thread has gone, to read Maria de Castro’s latest post on the ‘Change of Lawyer’ thread.
    A wonderful example how this forum can actually make a difference, achieve something……which in turn really benefits people.
    (In my opinion, of course)

    Jim – no inference was meant on my part that you have ever promoted yourself or your business/properties, and if you took it that way, I apologise. I mentioned you purely in the context of my feelings about agents in general giving advice and recommendation on their regions as I feel their comments would be ‘biased’ towards just the positive stuff. Again, just my opinion. If you say you personally would never do that, fine – I accept that.

    Dorothy, thanks for your kind comments. Your links with consistent quality information are as always invaluable 😉

    Tonight, we went to the beach for a wonderful midnight swim in the (half)moonlight. It’s great for ‘chilling’ the soul. May be a good idea for some of you in Spain?

    Barbara
    (Mark, I won’t be continuing on this thread any further. You now have my input re. my opinion.)
    Have enjoyed the ‘exchange’ but if I may be excused, prefer to spend my time on property threads.
    Please note I have no objection whatsoever in everyone else continuing without me, including the agents – I don’t want to be accused of telling people where and what they post…..and that is written without ‘sarcasm’.

  • #65386
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Bopsy wrote:

    Was that supposed to say hitting a Lawyer or hiring one!!!

    😆 only Barbara is allowed to dot that Bopsy. Barbara: 😉

  • #65391
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    For anyone who thinks Barbara is “killing the forum”

    http://www.viva-almeria.com/modules.php?name=F … pic&t=3893

  • #65392
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @spain wrote:

    it has got to the point that everytime i see “charlie” in the title i know already how th post is going to go.

    How different our perceptions can be. When I see a post from ‘Charlie’ I expect it to be full of commonsense and sound practical advice.

  • #65393
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Had I known that my simple question about the forum would produce so much vitriol and back-biting I would never have asked!
    Everyone’s entitled to an opinion and nobody is less significant than anyone else in this world as far as I know.
    Live and let live and enjoy the diversity of humanity, even if they DON’T agree with you!
    As for my simple question, Mark says no so fair enough.

    I’m a bit disappointed and I really wasn’t advocating anything on “chatty” lines – just an information exchange of sorts.

    Yes, there are plenty of other forums around but have you really had a look at them? Bit limited, sometimes childish and very often you just get little or no response to a query at all. That’s why I was impressed by this forum and, as Mark says, it is unique so I bow to his obvious knowledge and expertise and hope that something could be incorporated in the future?
    Have a great weekend everyone – I’ll be in CDS soon on my hols – can’t wait!!
    stevemk2

  • #65394
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maybe the topic should now be locked ❓ ❓

  • #65399
    Profile photo of Paul
    Paul
    Participant

    😮

    Sorry to disagree with spain here, but I think Barbara and banushouse are entitled to put their views here even if it does look like a put down.

    There has been sooooooooo much corruption over recent years throughout the Spanish property industry that enlightening people constantly to the scammers is the only way to make Spain and it’s regulators take action. Of course there are some good guys but the rogues are still there and still misleading people, and of course some of them are now doing the same thing in Turkey, Bulgaria, S. Africa, Thailand, Portugal etc. You only have to phone their offices to hear the latest bull about hot investments.

    So keep posting the negative as well as positive news, it’s an open forum I believe!

  • #65400
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I was not saying they are not entitled to an opinion, just I normally know what that opinion is going to be thats all.

    Im sorry if other disagree, I also notice the usual suspects have all jumped to each others aid.

  • #65422
    Profile photo of Paul
    Paul
    Participant

    😛 8)

    Hope that comment is not a case of paranoia spain!

    I think the majority of people here all contribute something useful whether positive or negative, keep smiling!

  • #65425
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree with Banushouse regarding “allowing” contributions from folk in the Industry (Incidentally I am not. I’m jusy a “normal” buyer)
    But the key is EVERYONE should know if they are involved as professional.
    We can then judge the content accordingly

    regards to all.

  • #65573
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As an agent and having contributed on this forum for nearly two years with what I believe is generally sound and correct advice – I think we should have every right to give advice.

    Most people buying a property only do so a few times in a long period during which time things change, whereas agents are involved in the process daily – so have far more experience than most.

    Whilst there is no doubt there are rogue agents out there I am sure most of those on here who give their advice freely do so for the same reasons I do – because we have a genuine interest in helping people.

    As for advising about the area I live – well I cannot give any advice about other areas because I dont live there and dont know how things operate in other parts of Spain – i only know here and yes my opinion is coloured – but not because I am an agent – but because I am a person who enjoys life here in this region in this small town called Piles. Last year I was a msuician and lovged doing that and still gave advice about being here – was my advice more coloured now than before because I have become an agent? I believe not

    As for agents having to declare what they are – does anyone else tell the world they are a builder, baker, musician, writer, or a candlestick maker? And does it really matter what you do? It is easy to see through bias and besides the rogues would just deny they were agents.
    I am all for transparency but also very much for equal rights one for all and all for one. (not quite the intended meaning I know)

    So in short everyones opinion is valid – whether Barbaras banushouse or Jiminspain Paul and many others – whether we agree with them or not is down to the individual but everyone is entitled to their opinions – dare I say it even estate agents

  • #65574
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I don’t think agents can be stopped from posting, who ever believes anything they say anyway without checking it out. Perhaps we could have a spot the agent forum 8)

  • #65581
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “spain”]

    sorry to say this but people like banushouse and Barbara kill forums, they are the most persistent “PUT-DOWNERS” on here, always got a bad word for everything

    .

    You mean they always have a bad word for the EAs. I wonder why? 🙄


    it has got to the point that every time i see “charlie” in the title i know already how the post is going to go

    .

    Well I for one would believe what Barbara told me waaaaay above what an estate agent told me. 🙄 She researches in depth and tells you the facts.The same goes for Katerina. They don’t bull***t.

    A post from “charlie” could be from Barbara OR Katerina, as since moving to Crete they have just one computer, one email address. Both Barbara, Katerina & myself have been using the forum to gain and share knowledge for a long time now. They have both helped many people here both inside and outside of the forum. ie.They have gone out of their way to find information relevant to individual circumstances. Due to Katerina’s diligent research and bi-lingual abilities,it helped my husband & I to the successful outcome of our Court case against the developers. What you estate Agents do not like is Barbara’s very eloquent responses to your one sided blurb. Likewise when I see an agent posting I do not bother to read it. In most cases Joe Public that posts here has been badly scarred by agents/lawyers/developers. This forum is/was a sanctuary for us.

    I know several who do not like the too often vindictive postings on the forum.
    It’s not so much the content that has changed but the people who post has changed. It( the forum) is rather like the premises in the town that I live in. Every other one is an Estate Agent!

    At the moment we are in the throes of selling/buying. I have to say the agents in the UK appear to be no different to the ones in Spain. They tell you what THEY think you should know to make sure they get their commission. What is a worry is that here in the UK they are supposed to be regulated. I guess they know how close to the wind they can sail! I survive by not believing anything they say. That way I am not disappointed just pleasantly surprised occasionally.

    Before long the agents may be the only ones posting!

  • #65582
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Claire wrote;
    In most cases Joe Public that posts here has been badly scarred by agents/lawyers/developers. This forum is/was a sanctuary for us.

    Claire you have summed this up brilliantly.
    A Sanctuary is a place to lick one’s wounds and safeguard themselves and possibly others against the outside world.
    This however is a forum.
    IMO the vast majority of posters have not decried the excellent information ,by and too ,those who have been traumatised by their experiences but rather the strength of feeling thus appearing so negative and despairing all over Spain.

    Claire wrote
    .
    Possibly people of true value to the forum will not post. The agents will have it all to themselves.

    My definition of “true value” , within this context is anyone ,regardless of occupation ,colour or creed who takes time to assist others without personal gain.
    I see many such postings .I think we must allow people to judge for themselves whether the poster has a hidden agenda

  • #65584
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    How many clicks do you think this forum would get if everyone who posted, agents or not were saying that everything in spain was hunky-Dory? How many people who read the forum would have been helped by your posts Melonsine? Even if people do not have problems charlie et al posts certainly make one aware of the pitfalls that could happen to anybody

  • #65585
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just thinking 💡 💡

    AGENTS FORUM…A place for like minded people to discuss how to bullshit the punters and pat each other on the back. No negative posts please, this is a partially commercial site.

  • #65588
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine ..as usual, you take things too literally. Nit picking springs to mind. It serves no purpose. Could you remind me of your reason for posting on the forum, initially. You are always so quick of the mark to criticise “particular” peoples postings.

    I agree 100% with Katy…in both her postings.

  • #65589
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    😆

  • #65612
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Just thinking 💡 💡

    AGENTS FORUM…A place for like minded people to discuss how to bullshit the punters and pat each other on the back. No negative posts please, this is a partially commercial site.

    Well Katy – well done.
    You have just summed up why I no longer bother to offer “advice”/”criticism”/”a point of view” etc. to this forum.
    Why is it that if this is a PROPERTY forum, then any agent posting has immediately to be on the defensive and to take nonsensical flak such as yours above.
    When I first came across this forum I loved it!
    However, after a month or so I simply became disillusioned and angry at the way certain members feel it is fine to criticise and put down other members just because of the job they do. A job which unless you have tried it yourself you are not qualified to judge.
    I wonder if you were a member of an EDUCATION forum, if teachers would be sent to the guillotine every time they posted.
    I wonder if you were a member of a MOTORING forum, if car salespeople were lined up to be run over (metaphorically of course)?
    I would carry on….and I suppose I should…but like other agents have previously said – I can’t be bothered.
    Sure enough, a forum should be open for all posters with all kinds of views.
    However, if any agent is reading this, please be prepared to defend yourself the minute you open your mouth.
    Why….?
    Post away, you will soon find out.

    So, there you are Katy.
    With sadness, I told Mark a while ago that I would no longer participate in the forum because of the vitriolic and downright infantile rants of some against agents, although I would continue to be an avid reader.
    So, with being spurred into action with this post you have actually achieved something……
    You have made a hitherto honest agent do a dishonest thing.
    I have posted when I said I no longer would.
    Shame on me.

  • #65615
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Saw an advert on this site from vbtudor(vince) which stated he was selling his property in Oliva as a private sale.Now see he is an Agent and has been for some time.Did a bit of homework on various sites and found he was advertising same property with a local estate agent.He must have been prepared tp pay their commision but when I contacted him said there was little room for negotiation as the price he offered was bottom price and in effect he would be making a loss taking all things into consideration.The only explanation I can give is that he works for the agency where his property was advertised.
    Transparency………. clear as mud!!!! caveat emptor.Trust no-one,check things out,double check and triple check and do your homeworkFeel a bit like Diogenis wandering with his lamp during daytime looking for an honest person.!!! 😥

  • #65621
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine/Stewlanz

    so why do think REA’S/developers/lawyers get so many negative comments?, could it be that finding a good one for most people is like finding a needle in a haystack? If they want positive comments, then they should start telling the truth a bit more and cut the bull***t. I do sympathise with the honest ones, but while they seem to be in such a minority, they will have a tough job convincing people.

    people like claire, katy and charlie tell it like it is and i say a huge ‘well done’ to them. The info’ and help they offer is fantastic, and if their posts are often negative then so what?, i see that as a reflection of the reality of things for many people. They talk as they find, and post positive comments when they have positive experience.

  • #65623
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Goodstich 🙂 A few snide remarks pale into insignificance compared to the number of people whom we get good feedback from. I get quite a number of pm’s and so I can give better info this way than on the open forum. I can only help from my own experiences though. When I am not sure of facts I keep quiet! 😉

  • #65625
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Goodstitch,

    Like others on this forum I suffered from rogue deceitful agents.
    Went into this venture with eyes wide open but seems no-one has a easy ride unless you are distrustful of everyone.
    Lost count of the times I flew out to Spain in only to discover the plot advertised and discussed didn’t exist or was illegal and all Spanish agents wanting to do was show you something else 👿 !!
    Plus suffering again two occasions when Spanish vendors changed the size/shape of parcela whilst in the Notary Office !!
    Thankfully my lawyer is brilliant . But more unnecessary costs incurred.

    Unfortunately in my case seeking redress through civil court action was not an option. So although poorer in pocket I learned a great deal,albeit the hard way ,and eventually I found there were truthful reliable agents in Spain .

    However just because I encountered numerous problems doesn’t mean to say that I think all agents are rogues,all lawyers crooked or that I should tell others not to buy in Spain but prefer rather warn people of the many horrendous pitfalls so they can make up their own minds.
    Having finally successfully relocated ,not to CDS, am I not permitted to have a point of view ?

    Still perplexed as to reason why both sides of any issue shouldn’t be discussed politely and agents or anyone should not be permitted to offer advice positive on this forums as long as it is neither advertising or propoganda.

    Perhaps by doing so it will stop agents/developers from deceit or at very least make purchasers aware of these issues.
    I certainly wished I had known the rules they work by when I first decided to relocate.

  • #65626
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    To Smithches

    In answer to your comments – I have never denied being an agent since I was, however as this IS my property I dont see what difference it makes what job I do. The other agents that have it on locally happen to be friends of mine and whilst yes they receive a commission this is between 3,000 and 6,000 Euros including IVA (ie a little room for negotiation but not much (it reperesents about 2% of the sale price hardly a huge drop). There are others who have it for more (from 259,000 to 299,000) and there are others for sale in the same building for more.

    But whether I am an agent or not – if someone drops me an email out of the blue asking about any house then unless you are over here viewing and making a serious offer then any negotiation is an academic excercise.

    As I paid 210,000 for it plus taxes of around 19,000, plus spent a further 10,000 doing conversions and a further 10,000 or so on furniture – this is I believe not a bad price and yes even at this price will be taking a loss – but I figured that if I could sell it quickly it may be worth while. But I am not a desperate seller so dont need to negotiate and in fact since finding out from the town architect that they are planning a commercial centre and a national park in the next two years perhaps it is now worth while renting out again and holding on. But that is my choice.

    There is nothing in the same area (Rabdells) for this price – except sorry a couple of 2 bed apartments in the building behind which are 60M Sq (compared to 135M) for 230,000

    If this is a crime then so be it I am a criminal. But I dont see why it should be such a major deal if I want to get the best price from it. I told you exactly what I paid for it, I told you exactly what I spent on it, and I even told you what the property rented for (and this is backed up by invoices from the rental agencies) for last year. So where is the lack of transparency

    As for finding out that I was an agent – did the email address not giveyou some clue – and had you checked the website you would have seen – an estate agents website. Also I have posted many times on here and Clearly stated that I am an agent – where is the lack of transparency? Sorry Tom – I dont mind accepting criticism when it is due but in this case I think you are wrong.

    One final point – as an agent we get the buyer and seller to sign the contract between each other which (in accordance to the law as far as I am aware) itemises the price to be paid, the commission that will go to us, the IVA and the amount to the owner. As we ask the buyer to raise the cheque it is difficult not to be transparent in our dealings.

    I hope you find what you are looking for and I hope you find somewhere in your price range for what you want

    Vince

  • #65627
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine

    glad to hear a happy ending to your story, of course everyone should be able to voice their opinion, it just amazes me that anyone would be suprised at the amount of critisism aimed at agents/developers and to a lesser extent lawyers. The whole CDS thing in particular is, as you know a bloody mess for many people and we are very sensitive to posts that attempt to balance negative posts by saying that things are not so bad as some people are saying, well for some they are!!!!!!!! When things start going well (and i have to believe they will) i will gladly post any positive news as loudly as the negative. We just need the plain truth however ugly, it’s the only way of picking your way through the mine field as far as i can see.

  • #65631
    Profile photo of Paul
    Paul
    Participant

    😯

    Stewlanz, you say you’re honest and if so you might blame the dishonest cowboy agents for your post since because of them, you’ve been tarred with the same brush I’m afraid.

    When so many people on this site level vitriol and complaints towards certain agents, it is because the majority have been taken for a ride, ripped-off etc by those agents often mentioned here. As you know I have banged the drum against one large agent for years BECAUSE they deserve it, they are still misleading people after all these years. Because of them, I lost faith in agents on the Costas and there are a good few that I wouldn’t go near with a bargepole now.

    How do new purchasers/investors find ‘honest’ agents and Developers and Lawyers in Spain with confidence after all the bad publicity, other than word of mouth, but even then there may always be a question mark?

    I think it is wrong to now blame others for what was the fault of various agents who often post here under other names (why can’t they be open about themselves?). Unfortunately Spain has a bad and often corrupt property reputation which needs sorting out, you seem like a victim of this!

  • #65633
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Goodstitch44

    I am not surprised at the angry and frustrated outbursts against any disgraceful REA’s,Developers or Lawyers in the CDS area of Spain who quite frankly deserve all they get thrown at them….and more…but why are others in areas of Spain where these situations have not occurred…..yet !!!. lambasted when they offer advice.
    One could argue of course they will get business indirectly from a posting and this is true but it’s easier to walk out of an agents office than away from an inspection trip.
    Bye the bye I still have concerns to address so not quite the “happy ending” yet but neither do I have the cavelier attitude “this is how things are in Spain”.
    Things do need changing .Rules tightened ,consumer rights tougher in UK as well as Spain .For it is through adverts and exhibitions in UK that most people venture into buying abroad.

  • #65634
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think that since I have been reading and contributing to the forum I have seen no evidence of blatant attempts to gain business buy any agent, I think that Vince trying to sell his own property hardly comes into that category, yes we have all commented on the areas that we operate but that is because these are the areas that we know well.

    I hope that sincere agents will continue to contribute and post, anyone looking to gain a commercial advantage will soon realise that this is not the forum to try and gain new business and will move on to pastures greener.

    One last thought, most of the agents that are posting here seem to be from outside of the CDS, as you have all so eloquently said there are many bad experience and unhappy buyers there perhaps they are not prepared to raise their head above the parapets.

  • #65642
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine wrote,

    ‘Bye the bye I still have concerns to address so not quite the “happy ending” yet but neither do I have the cavelier attitude “this is how things are in Spain”. ‘

    Melosine,

    i do not like sweeping generalisations either, and i realise that many of the content people probably don’t post, but we can only speak as we find.

  • #65649
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It is not only the CDS that has problems, reading other forums there is Town Hall corruption in Murcia and almeria, and you don’t get any more serious than the valencia land grab. To state that the scams are only on the CDS is not being truthful. people with no LFO’s and others waiting for property that has still to be started after years. The overbuilding on the costa blanca makes the CDS look almost rural. I don’t have any objection to agents per se on the forum, but I do to some of the ones posting at the moment. anyone remember Bert Preest (?) he came up with some useful info’ and he didn’t write agents blurb although he was one or try to sell a house on site, or write glowingly of yet another “luxury development”

  • #65650
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree with you Melosine on one point. I also would never say to people “Don’t buy in Spain” even though my husband & I will not! Spain is a fabulous place. We thoroughly enjoy our holidays there.

  • #65651
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Have you seen the massive building along the coast in Mojacar area Katy? More compacted than UK. ( I could be more explicit but don’t wish to offend property owners there)

    I mentioned CDS ,only, because it was more pertinant to this forum and hope that the problems there haven’t taken the emphasis off Valencia , Albox, Cuevas del Almanzora , Mar Menor and other massively over developed areas where people are encountering problems.

    Claire, as I mentioned to you before if I had been through your problems I wouldn’t considering buying in Spain either.
    There were times when we could have/should have/ thrown in the towel …but out UK property was sold and as by then we were aware (haha) of what and how to achieve our aim we stuck with it.

    We have no regrets just different concerns to overcome.

  • #65671
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    STEWLANZ said

    Well Katy – well done.
    You have just summed up why I no longer bother to offer “advice”/”criticism”/”a point of view” etc. to this forum.

    Ive got to agree with you Stewlanz. When I first joined the forum I thought i could make some useful contributions without any commercial interest. I do still answer a few questions, but now I look at some of the posted questions and dont bother to post a answer because I know the the usual suspects will try and discredit it because I am an agent.

    Maybe I shouldnt have put in my profile I was an agent or maybe I should have hidden my real name B Lawes. But I didnt, and now I know that being an agent on this forum is about as popular as a rattlesnake in a lucky dip.

    After reading some of the posts you would think that it is impossible to buy a problem free property in Spain. It is possible and has been for many years, but mention this when being an agent and you can be sure to get shot down in flames.

    Its never mentioned as far as I can see, but some of the problems people have suffered has been by their own incompetance and greed. We shouldnt forget that not every estate agent, lawyer, developer etc etc is a compulsive liar who only thinks of the money, but sadly this is the way this forum is beginning to go.

    Kind regards

    Bernard

  • #65672
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @blawes1 wrote:

    [
    Its never mentioned as far as I can see, but some of the problems people have suffered has been by their own incompetance and greed.

    Bernard could you define what in your opinion constitutes”purchasers greed” please?

    Also, why would that “entitle” them to being ripped off by said agents/developers/lawyers.?

    😕

  • #65675
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    blawes 1 wrote,

    being an agent on this forum is about as popular as a rattlesnake in a lucky dip.

    …………now why is that i wonder?…….dear oh dear………
    [/quote]

  • #65677
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    some of the problems people have suffered has been by their own incompetance and greed.

    Must admit Bernard I have a problem squaring that one away, someone who has placed their trust in people acting on their behalf and who should be protecting the interest of their clients can hardly be accused of incompetent. As for greed who would not take advantage of some of the claims regarding capital growth etc. etc. Trusting and naive yes, incompetent and greedy no!

    Jim

  • #65679
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Must admit Bernard I have a problem squaring that one away, someone who has placed their trust in people acting on their behalf and who should be protecting the interest of their clients can hardly be accused of incompetent.

    The purchaser also places a great deal of money in these peoples pockets too! Let’s not forget that.

  • #65699
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    jiminspain

    i agree, and sadly i am one of those people. I have always done as much homework as possible when it comes to spending large amounts of money, and even more so on an a product i’m not an expert on. We knew that our decision to buy off-plan on CDS was a gamble, due to the flucuation in prices/supply and demand etc, but at some point we have to trust someone if we are not proffesional builders/lawyers/agents or bilingual. It’s when that trust is abused that makes our situation out of our hands, and agents are the first people we put some trust in. For instance, if you walk in to a bank and deposit a large sum of money, you have to trust that the person taking it would not just give you a receipt and run out of the back door, and then when you complain to the bank they say ‘sorry’ it is against the law, but tough, take us to court and it will probably cost you a small fortune to get it back, if ever!!!!!

  • #65700
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Jiminspain,

    In my post I was trying to put across that not every case of a sale going wrong is the fault of the agent/lawyer/builder. I see it time and time again at exhibtions where people come along and think they know the best way to buy in Spain.

    For example, two years ago a couple came to an exhibition and had £160,000 to spend which would have bought a very nice place in my area at the time. They went away with some brochures and I didnt hear any more. At each exhibtion I have an independent lawyer who makes a free legal clinic and then three months ago this same couple came to see him. They had gone down to Costa Almeria and bought 8 off plans and put almost £20,000 down on each one.

    Their intention was to sell seven on when finished and keep one for themselves and make a huge profit very easily. What they hadnt thought of was that when this project was finished there would be a huge glut of properties for sale as more or less the whole project had been sold in this way. They hadnt sold one, so the situation they now faced was to either take mortgages on all the properties and hope that they might sell or walk away and lose their money.

    The whole development is legal, all the papers were correct and nobody has conned them. They took the decision to invest their money in these properties and in a period of 18 months believed they could almost double it by selling on. All that has happened is they took a gamble and it didnt work.

    So who was ultimately at fault?.

    The agent beacuse he could make 8 sales? In my opinion no, beacuse it’s not his job to advise someone not to buy.

    The lawyer in Spain? In my opinion no, beacuse the whole development is legal and he would get 8 title deeds to prepare.

    The builder?. In my opinion again no, he sells to whoever wants to buy.

    The fault ultimately has to is with the couple who only saw totally unrealistic returns on their money. When your money in a bank can get somewhere between 3% and 5%, how someone can think that they can double it so easily in 18 months, in my opinion, is both incompetence and greed.

    There has been some terrible cases of corruption in Spain which is a different subject, but my point was that sometimes we only have ourselves to blame too.

    Kind regards

    Bernard

  • #65701
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @blawes1 wrote:

    Hi Jiminspain,

    So who was ultimately at fault?.

    The agent because he could make 8 sales? In my opinion no, beacuse it’s not his job to advise someone not to buy.

    The lawyer in Spain? In my opinion no, because the whole development is legal and he would get 8 title deeds to prepare.

    The builder?. In my opinion again no, he sells to whoever wants to buy.

    IMO, the agent was at fault. You say you all know the market.

    Why didn’t they strongly advise that it was very unwise for all the reasons you gave above. (They probably said “What a great idea. !”)

    Answer. Because the agent was the greedy one. All that lovely commission and their target probably reached for at least a month in one foul swoop!!!

  • #65702
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    blawes wrote,
    The agent because he could make 8 sales? In my opinion no, beacuse it’s not his job to advise someone not to buy.

    ………..that speakes volumes, so your saying that the agents job is to advise someone to buy, knowing it stands a high chance of being a disaster, purely because the agent will still make a packet on it?, and you wonder why agents have a bad name!!!!!!!

  • #65704
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Claire and Goodstitch,

    Im sorry but I have to disagree with both of you. When you make a sale in Spain and it doesnt complete, you dont get paid. Its that simple. So there is no point in making 8 sales when you know they wont go ahead.

    The ultimate responsibilty for this couple was themselves and that was my point. They had seen people doing the same, thought they would make a lot of money and it was a gamble that didnt pay off. Now of course they blame everybody except themselves. They signed the papers, they sent the money and would quite happily have taken the vast profits they thought they would make. What I was trying to say was sometimes we only have ourselves to blame.

    The agents job is to listen to the type of property the client wants, the area they want etc etc and then show them suitable properties. Nobody has a crystal ball for future prices so the ultimate decision is always the clients. These people were convinced they would make a lot of money so I dont think the agents job is advise them they are wrong and how would the agent know if they would or wouldnt sell in the future. Many people made a lot of money by selling on before completion.

    Goodstitch when you said

    that speakes volumes, so your saying that the agents job is to advise someone to buy, knowing it stands a high chance of being a disaster, purely because the agent will still make a packet on it?, and you wonder why agents have a bad name

    I didnt say any of this and like I said before, if it doesnt complete you dont get paid or didnt you realise this?

    Bernard

  • #65705
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Bernard

    I doubt that anyone would go to Spain with the objective to buy 8 off plans and clean up in the process, no doubt the concept was sold to them. I am sure the questions would have been:

    Will I have any problems selling before completion.
    How much will they be worth by completion.

    Were they advised that legally a transaction has taken place and they could be liable for 35% capital gains tax on each potential sale.

    I would concede however that if good advice was given and these and other questions were answered honestly and the couple still decided to make such a purchse, then they were indeed both incompetent and greedy.

    Guess we will just be left wondering what really happened! 😉

  • #65708
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Blawes..it all smacks of agents greed not purchasers greed. Maybe you didn’t use a very good example. How often do you get people buying 8 apartments? 🙄

    I agree with Jim’s comments re advice given or not about CG.

    By the by…nobody that I know of in a sales orientated job gets paid if they don’t sell the product!!

  • #65710
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    claire

    exactly,

    blawes,
    the point i was making, is that if an agent regards honesty more important than greed, they will use their knowledge of the market to advise on the best outcome for the buyer, and if you re-read your earlier post as follows, what you said amounted to my reply

    BLAWES WROTE
    So who was ultimately at fault?.
    The agent because he could make 8 sales? In my opinion no, beacuse it’s not his job to advise someone not to buy.

    Why ever not?, ……..of course it’s his job to advise not to buy, if he knows it’s not a wise move!!

  • #65716
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Goodstitch,

    I think we will have to agree to disagree.

    The whole point was that we sometimes we make our own mistakes. The couple were convinced they could double their money. Convinced they had done all homework. Convinced they had chosen the right development. Convinced they would be able to sell them on and knew that they have to take a mortage on any they hadnt sold on. I believe they knew all the relevant facts and they still decided to speculate. A situation like this is always risk versus reward.

    I dont know where you got the idea that the agent would know it wasnt a wise move because I never said this and 2 or 3 years ago nobody could predict the different property market of today. Going back 2 or 3 years buying 2 or 3 offplans in Costa Almeria (in this case 8 which is rather a lot) was very common and people were making a lot of money selling on. I am sure that if agent knew it wasnt a wise move and he wont get paid he wouldnt even be at the development

    It just didnt work for them and like I said they are looking for everybody else to blame except themselves.

    So I still dont think the agent was at fault beacuse he wouldnt know for sure what the property market would be doing 2 years on and whatever anybody thought/predicted would happen is probably quite different to what we see today. We can all make assumptions/predictions/guesses but the final decision is always our own.

    Best wishes

    Bernard

  • #65717
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    We all accept that despite the best advice people can and do sometimes make their own mistakes, the issue is was it fair to describe them as incompetent.

    incompetent defined as:

    not qualified or suited for a purpose;
    bungling: showing lack of skill or aptitude;
    clumsy;
    not doing a good job;
    incapable: not meeting requirements;
    unequal to the demands;
    someone who is not competent to take effective action;

    You say that the agent was not in possesion of a crystal ball and could not predict future market activity and prices. Obviously the buyers were not either, so using your own analogy the Agent must also have been incompetent.

  • #65719
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Jim,

    I only referred to the agent as

    The agents job is to listen to the type of property the client wants, the area they want etc etc and then show them suitable properties

    As we all know, financial advice, price predictions, market predictions etc should all be taken independently and not from person selling the property. Any information given by an agent should be verified by the client themselves.

    As we are on to dictionary definitions another for
    INCOMPETENCE: lack of ability or skill to do something successfully

    I dont know the agent concerned but I assume on the basis he was asked for off-plans, with a 2 year build, good location, all papers in order, low first payments, possibility to sell on before completion and no more payments until completion, I think he did his job.

    The couple however are the ones who have failed to sell on so the “lack of ability or skill to do something successfully” must remain with them.

    The whole point was that the couple could have bought one place and enjoyed many happy holidays. They decided to speculate on something and didnt get it right.

    Bernard

  • #65723
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    On second thoughts let the agents have free rein, seems as though they will probably shoot themselves in the foot 🙄

  • #65724
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think this particular conversation has run its course!

  • #65727
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @blawes1 wrote:

    Hi Claire and Goodstitch,

    Im sorry but I have to disagree with both of you. When you make a sale in Spain and it doesnt complete, you dont get paid. Its that simple.

    Bernard

    …..unless you were an agent selling Green Hills, Bernard.
    Our apartment was 400,000 euros, so our agent received (at 12.5%) fifty thousand euros commission at the time we first signed.
    A good year’s salary for a lot of people. Not a bad day’s work.

    Would love to hear from any of the agents out there whether this situation was an absolute one-off, paying the agent’s commission upfront on an offplan, or has it happened elsewhere? Or at least some kind of financial inducement at the time of getting clients to sign?

    Just find it hard to believe that Green Hills was the only development in the whole of Spain that offered the agents some kind of ‘incentive’ if a client of theirs signs that initial contract.

    As for eight properties……

    Come on guys, an honest answer now 😉 am genuinely interested.

    Barbara

  • #65731
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Never been offered up front commisions, but then havnt been offered 12.5% either, perhaps those terms are reserved for some of the bigger guys.

    Jim

  • #65732
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    So Jim, you would agree then that 12.5% is going to knock all scruples out of the window in order to get Joe Public to sign that contract.
    When we confronted the well known agents about this figure they denied it time & time again. They even checked with their accountant, who said it was a 7% commission they worked on.

    Lies ,lies and more damned lies! 👿

  • #65734
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ……..just a thought, a few agents/developers are getting accused of lies, misleading information, lack of information, not returning e-mails or phone calls quickly, bad advice, illegal builds, build problems, delays, wrong specifications, breeches of contract, no bank guarentee, no LFO in bed with the lawyers, etc etc, they know who they are and some of them must read this site if they have a finger on the pulse at all. If you want to show any kind of transparency, why not have a thread on here where you can defend yourselves, and we could all discuss and ask you questions about the problems we have had/are having. We could then have a list of recommended companies to use, based on honesty and transparency.

    If only eh!!!!!

  • #65735
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    goodstich- Pigs might fly and we would have pink elephants running around in their pom poms. These cowards prefer to hide when it comes to shove. It is far easier not returning phone calls and pretend you have never existed. PAH! Mind you, what goes round comes round 😉

  • #65736
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie,

    Ive got to agree with Jim and I’ve never been offered up front commissions and nothing close to 12.5%.

    The wording on my contracts with the builders that I sell for all say in general that I will receive a commission based on the proportions of the stage payments received. There is a proviso that should I receive a commission in excess of the stage payment received, then I must return it.

    What I dont understand with Green Hills is, if the builder paid the commission up front and then a client cancelled or just didnt complete, surely the agent must have had to give the money back.

    Secondly I cant think where the builder could get the money from to pay the commission. If he hasnt been paid in full for the property did he fund the commission from his own money even though he had only received a deposit or stage payment.

    And I can honestly say that I have never been offered any inducements to get a client to sign.

    Bernard

  • #65737
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Don’t know if it works the same on the CDS but around here the price a buyer pays is the price they pay through the developer or through any agent, I know what you mean though do the higher commissions mean agents push to sell these development!. As I say if the price is the price then the most important issue is one of legality, licences, permissions, quality, delivery, etc, etc. Oh and not to forget service.

    Obviously part of the problem is that the developers will pay certain commissions to certain agents to ensure that agent brings their client, how do you stop it I don’t know. I don’t believe that you can legislate commission levels paid by developers so market forces will dictate.

    If things are as I suggest then the agent is not “charging” the buyer 12.5% parse he is being paid that by the developer. I know you will argue that effectively the buyer pays through the purchase price. Will the commission level entice Agents to push that property, lets be honest of course it will and I suspect that in the same situation most people would do the same, the caveat should always be “is it right for the buyer, does it meet his criteria, is it sold honestly and transparently”.

    And before anyone chews my head off, I am not condoning anything here just saying it how it is.

    Jim

  • #65738
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @blawes1 wrote:

    What I dont understand with Green Hills is, if the builder paid the commission up front and then a client cancelled or just didnt complete, surely the agent must have had to give the money back

    I have spoken to several of the large EA’s who have “cold called” me( and probably wished they hadn’t by the time they put the phone down!! 😆 )and one of the ones whose initials we are not allowed to use, told me that they get their commission approx 15 days after the contract has been signed. If the builder is that stupid to pay up front, without some proviso agreement, then they deserve to loose that money. Before all of these corruption scandals came to light,I do believe Eralia was a reputable developer with no problems. Then again the bribing scandal hadn’t come to light, so they got away with it.

    Secondly I can’t think where the builder could get the money from to pay the commission

    .

    The developer took millions of euros as deposits on the upper blocks of Green Hills. They also took out mortgages on each and every one of the apartments, even though they were never built. Even after the BL was suspended,(Dec 2003) they were still marketing the upper blocks.People actually put deposits down in late 2003 and early 2004!!! 😯 ) Our current lawyer showed us a copy of the mortgage certificate applicable to our apt. !! I don’t think money was a problem.

    Going back to the EA’s commission. We asked the agents in PB if, as a gesture of good will, they would forgo their commission so that IF we took the money MVG offered us (although their recent track record tells me that when push came to shove, they wouldn’t have paid us) we would then get 75% of our money back. Guess what they said??!!

  • #65741
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Our particular agent ( a one-man band + secretary office in Marbella representing a top top London firm…) sold several Green Hill apartments.

    We’ve tracked datewise when he disappeared off the face of the earth (including leaving Spain and the London firm) – and guess what. It was the month the building licence was suspended.

    He definitely decided he wasn’t returning any of his commissions!

    Knowing we were also interested in a penthouse re. an investment for my Mother, just before he left – he telephoned us and off-loaded the one he had reserved for himself on to us, obviously knowing by then the development wasn’t going to take off.
    Luckily on this one, we managed to get back quite easily the initial 6000 euro deposit we paid.
    But the principal of what he did stinks!

    We calculate he probably received about 200,000 euros from the development in commissions, selling we think four in total.

    And needlessly to say, it was he who recommended our in-the-developer’s-pocket original lawyer.
    Had no idea of the agent/lawyer/developer triangle that existed at the time.

    God help him if we ever by chance bump into him. 👿

    Barbara

  • #65746
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi everyone – 12.5% seems a high price for commissions. I know 3 developers here in Oliva/Piles personally and we have some of their developments for sale. One of them is offering 1.5% on the houses in town as they operate on tight margins, however he also offers 5% on some new apartments he is building on the golf course – two different markets.

    I have never come across a developer that offers 12.5% locally.

    One of the developers has shown me his calculations for a development. (mainly because we worked with him from an early time before the project came to fruition) In total he makes 20% profit – but it is his own money he is putting down (not the banks) so at 5% commission an agent would be getting 25% of the money he earns – for absolutely no risk except a bit of marketing.

    So on a typical small development of 15 apartments where he is putting up about 2.2 Million euros he would earn 540,000 in two years and out of this an agent at 5% would get 135,000 of this – without putting his money in.

    No wonder he isn’t keen using agents. However he also doesn’t need to because most of his developments sell quickly to the Spanish (high quality good price and good location) so perhaps that is why the developers here don’t pay agents that much.

    In general I think they pay about 3% – some pay more at 5-6% but then you have to sell a fair few of their property for this level. Once we were offered a property at 10% commission because it was the last one and he wanted it sold quickly, But most of the developers here are fairly small fry compared to CDS – a typical size development would be 15-50 apartments or about 15-25 townhouses.

    So I cannot see how at 20% margin (and I am sure that isn’t too far out either as a typical plot of land is 90,000 -110,000 repercussion (that’s the price of the land per dwelling) and a typical build cost for a standard 2 bed apartment is 45,000 and a typical sales price for such an apartment would be 180-200,000, it doesn’t leave a huge amount of room for maneuver. How a developer could possibly make any money with 12.5% commissions He could get 7.5% if he stuck his money into a bank account on high interest. – and I cant believe that land in Costa Del Sol is so much cheaper than up here that the developer can build cheaper therefore being able to give better commissions to agents unless the land was bought many years ago.

    As for paying up front – most developers pay a percentage up front – with some it is the percentage that the buyer pays – so if they pay 30% you get 30% of the commission.

    Others will pay up front but with claw back if the client cancels.

    One important though. If the deposits are taken before a license is issued then they are held in an escrow account which neither the developer or the buyer can touch until the licenses are in place.

    I believe this is standard practice up here (I could be wrong and am sure someone will put me right on it) but I certainly wouldn’t advise anyone give their deposit direct to the developer until he had proof the licenses were in place.

    Perhaps if people buying off plan insisted on this (and their is no risk to the developer unless he doesn’t get a license) it would certainly stop the practice that has caused so much bother before to a lot of people on this forum.

    Escrow is an International safety mechanism used throughout the world when there are any doubts about either party – ie the sellers ability to complete and the buyers ability to pay. It provides the buyer with a guarantee if things go wrong and provides the seller with a guarantee if things go right. Win win I think they call that. So anyone looking in on this make sure you get your lawyer to insist on escrow.

    Best wishes

    Vince

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