Foreigners Are The New Friends?

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This topic contains 51 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 5 years, 12 months ago.

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  • #56009
    Profile photo of ozmunky
    ozmunky
    Participant

    Los extranjeros son los nuevos amigos?

    Folks

    I have changed topics and switched to one I have always wondered about but dare not speak.

    Mark has posted an interesting topic in the News & Views about the reality hitting the Spanish political class.

    They now appear to collectively realise they are in the poo and also realise the Spanish buying population doesn’t have the resources (if they ever did) to sort it out and they are now having to face up to the fact its the foreigners that are an important ally to have when off loading all the Bank owned properties. Clearly the Spanish banks have all waited too long while governments at all levels either have fiddled or took back handers to ignore it. Not to mention the shameful behaviour of the judiciary and the legal profession.

    Its taken a Euro crisis to concentrate minds.

    Only problem is what to do with all the stuff that foreigners dont want and wouldn’t want (illegal builds, land grabs etc).

    My view is that its a bit late given all that whats happened.

    For the record, I would love to buy and and have a stake in Spain, but I (still) dont have the confidence in the levels of structure and influence in the country.

    Perhaps the SPI commentariat may have a view ….

    Regards

    — Munky

  • #101827
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spain is a vast, diverse, under-populated country whose native population is not producing enough babies. It is also a new democracy, only 35 years old, but is already the fourth largest economy in Europe.

    The country has indulged in a mad building boom aimed to attract a few more million foreigners into the land, which failed three years ago when the whole world nearly went bankrupt. Having concentrated on its construction sector, it is looking in other directions since the sector died.

    To further expand the tourism sector is an obvious choice, hampered by Spain’s inability to devalue its currency. Solar and wind power are coming to the fore, but everything is overshadowed by more than a million empty homes languishing on Bank’s balance sheets.

    The devalued British pound has stopped the Brits from coming, but the million already here are still spending their British earnings in Spain. They need a few million more foreigners from other colder countries, the Russians and Germans are already rushing in, but the big news is the Chinese – they are arriving in great numbers, encouraged by favourable Spanish tax concessions.

    Adding the influx of South Americans, from the former Spanish colonies, and you can slowly see the country filling up with its much needed people.

  • #101828
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    which failed three years ago when the whole world nearly went bankrupt

    Not strictly true Rocker. The market had already peaked and was on its way down before anyone had ever heard of the sub-prime crisis. It was a classic bubble market that burst all by itself and would have done without the banking crisis.

    You could argure that the scale of the problem was (is being) exacerbated by it but that is about it.

  • #101842
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think it’s a chicken or egg situation, best described as a draw. The debt parcels being passed around the world’s banks were not even understood by the creators, never mind the eager buyers like the RBS.

  • #101843
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Munky’s point is when, if or at all will the time be right to invest in Spanish property. Munky is a market man so should understand well the premise of risk.
    High risk requires big rewards. Right now investing in property anywhere for profit is a risk, however the risk is higher in Spain because of the factors correctly described by other posters here.
    So if high risk is to be well rewarded it must be possible for an investor to buy property at substantially reduced wholesale prices. That is not currently possible.
    Spanish banks are sitting on an enormous amount of none performing assets,(repossessed property) content in the knowledge the ECB will fund their shortfalls. Bankrupt developments sit rotting, growing weeds waiting for the upturn which may never come.
    Investing now is not likely to produce returns for a minimum of five years. possibly more. That’s a long time for capital to rest, producing nothing.
    Therefore what we have in Spain is stagnation and serious decline. It would be a brave if not foolhardy investor to risk capital in a market that is completely moribund if not completely dead as a parrot.
    I have personally tried to persuade some banks to open up the flood gates, release their non performing assets and take the hit. Nothing doing. They are not convinced. They really believe the upturn is just round the corner so why pass on any benefits to the likes of I.
    Moral hazard again. As long as the ECB tap continues, there is little incentive to get the market moving.
    In any case demand is simply none existent. When you have massive supply and no demand, you have bankruptcy. It’s schoolboy economics. Unless you have a benefactor called The European Central Bank.
    So to answer Munky’s question. In my opinion if you are an investor for profit don’t touch Spanish property with a long pole.
    If you simply want a holiday home in the sun there are many other safer destinations without the high tax overheads of Spain. I regret to say it but I believe Spain has had it it’s day.

  • #101845
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    I have personally tried to persuade some banks to open up the flood gates, release their non performing assets and take the hit. Nothing doing. They are not convinced. They really believe the upturn is just round the corner so why pass on any benefits to the likes of I.

    Personally, I think the banks are insolvent and cannot afford to write off the amount needed to start selling again. Hence we have a tactic of creating a “no market”. If you dont sell at a loss, its not a loss. As it stands, they get time to write down these loans on their books whilst they recapitalise and the properties only lose 20% after 12 months. The reality is they need to reduce by 50-60% to start the sales moving.

    Thats my take on it. As ever, could be totally wrong.

  • #101846
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Munky’s point is when, if or at all will the time be right to invest in Spanish property. Munky is a market man so should understand well the premise of risk.
    High risk requires big rewards. Right now investing in property anywhere for profit is a risk, however the risk is higher in Spain because of the factors correctly described by other posters here.
    So if high risk is to be well rewarded it must be possible for an investor to buy property at substantially reduced wholesale prices. That is not currently possible.
    Spanish banks are sitting on an enormous amount of none performing assets,(repossessed property) content in the knowledge the ECB will fund their shortfalls. Bankrupt developments sit rotting, growing weeds waiting for the upturn which may never come.
    Investing now is not likely to produce returns for a minimum of five years. possibly more. That’s a long time for capital to rest, producing nothing.
    Therefore what we have in Spain is stagnation and serious decline. It would be a brave if not foolhardy investor to risk capital in a market that is completely moribund if not completely dead as a parrot.
    I have personally tried to persuade some banks to open up the flood gates, release their non performing assets and take the hit. Nothing doing. They are not convinced. They really believe the upturn is just round the corner so why pass on any benefits to the likes of I.
    Moral hazard again. As long as the ECB tap continues, there is little incentive to get the market moving.
    In any case demand is simply none existent. When you have massive supply and no demand, you have bankruptcy. It’s schoolboy economics. Unless you have a benefactor called The European Central Bank.
    So to answer Munky’s question. In my opinion if you are an investor for profit don’t touch Spanish property with a long pole.
    If you simply want a holiday home in the sun there are many other safer destinations without the high tax overheads of Spain. I regret to say it but I believe Spain has had it it’s day.

    A perceptive and well-written post. Spain is indeed dead in the water for property speculators and developers. It’s a young democracy that innocently walked into shark infested waters when it assumed that democracy somehow equated with honesty.

    The country has learned an expensive and horrible lesson over the past 10 to 20 years; hundreds of its own crooks are now facing trial in courts all over the place, especially on the CDS where 96 of them are attending Marbaella One court on a daily basis.

    A sprinkling of foreign crooks are also gripping court’s rails, and they’re even trying to fetch Sean Connery back from his hide-out in Barbados.

    The banks are not going to lend to speculators again, not for a long time, whether home grown or from foreign shores.

    But things are slowly starting to right themselves. Ordinary people who want to buy a home in the sun to live in, or enjoy their holidays in, can easily find finance, although the checks are more stringent than before.

  • #101855
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    Personally, I think the banks are insolvent and cannot afford to write off the amount needed to start selling again. Hence we have a tactic of creating a “no market”. If you dont sell at a loss, its not a loss. As it stands, they get time to write down these loans on their books whilst they recapitalise and the properties only lose 20% after 12 months. The reality is they need to reduce by 50-60% to start the sales moving.

    Thats my take on it. As ever, could be totally wrong.

    You are technically correct adiep. The banks are not concerned with the state of the market only their balance sheets. The ECB have a policy of maintaining price stability and the last thing they want to see is a collapse of market prices in Spain. Why? Because the banks would buckle.
    In my opinion prices need to be reduced by 75% before any significant movement takes place or any further interest from me.

  • #101839
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In my opinion prices need to be reduced by 75% before any significant movement takes place or any further interest from me.

    I wouldn’t go quite as far as that Logan but I do feel a further correction, of around 30%, is on the cards. Whatever our estate agent fraternity may say, I’m pretty convinced that this market will be stagnant and declining until such time as we see a correction such as that.

  • #101856
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It has to get worse before it gets better.

  • #101857
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @adiep wrote:
    Personally, I think the banks are insolvent and cannot afford to write off the amount needed to start selling again. Hence we have a tactic of creating a “no market”. If you dont sell at a loss, its not a loss. As it stands, they get time to write down these loans on their books whilst they recapitalise and the properties only lose 20% after 12 months. The reality is they need to reduce by 50-60% to start the sales moving.

    Thats my take on it. As ever, could be totally wrong.

    You are technically correct adiep. The banks are not concerned with the state of the market only their balance sheets. The ECB have a policy of maintaining price stability and the last thing they want to see is a collapse of market prices in Spain. Why? Because the banks would buckle.
    In my opinion prices need to be reduced by 75% before any significant movement takes place or any further interest from me.

    Well, that’s interesting and informative. I don’t agree with your 75%, but wouldn’t argue with another 40%, from current levels.

    You seem to have an excellent knowledge of the Spanish property market and clearly state that it is no longer for you, and I don’t blame you; may I ask where you are investing instead?

    If at all, of course.

  • #101858
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    Next year is going to be very rough in Spain. The end of long term benefits will not only affect those who are receiving them, but also those have now been unemployed for a year. They will be wondering what the heck they are going to do. On top of this, we have the austerity measures, causing tax increases and reductions in services. We also have banks and the sovereign needing to roll over debts, which is likely to cause more turmoil and probably a bailout resulting in yet more austerity, a la Ireland. Who knows what the autonomous regions will be doing for money.

    And not forgetting tax rises on property purchases.

    I’m beginning to feel like a broken record and dont particularly like harping on about all this doom and gloom stuff, but I think the reality of what’s about to happen in Spain will make Ireland look like a teddy bears picnic.

    And no, Im not just trying to talk down the market 🙂

  • #101859
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    and now for something completely different

  • #101860
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m sorry, but your negativity has reached a stupid and unrealistic level. It’s probably personal, but who cares?

    Spanish and UK properties are suffering, they’ve suffered before and they will recover.

    Cheer up, Son, you might have bought a house in Florida, and I can understand the tears in your eyes.

  • #101861
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    You do sound depressed adiep, must be the prospect of losing five Euros 🙂
    Seriously this situation in Spain brings great opportunities for investors/speculators call it what you will. That’s the positive factor about market economics. One man’s disaster is another’s opportunity. The glass is always half full.
    Working out how to take advantage of that however brings further challenge. Being up against the EU who simply want to rig markets is the biggest challenge of all.

  • #101862
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    “I’m sorry, but your negativity has reached a stupid and unrealistic level. It’s probably personal, but who cares?”

    Rocker, i’ve had to restrain myself several times from calling you stupid, or an idiot, I’d suggest you do the same else we’ll end up lowering the tone of what is normally a friendly forum.

    There’s nothing stupid or unrealistic about my statement above, those statements are simply facts, I suggest you spend a bit of time researching the country you live in so that you might better know what’s going on.

  • #101863
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    Logan, for sure, I fully appreciate that I can capitalise on other’s misery, chiefly your misery when you hand over that fiver 🙂

  • #101864
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Seriously this situation in Spain brings great opportunities for investors/speculators call it what you will. That’s the positive factor about market economics. One man’s disaster is another’s opportunity. The glass is always half full.

    Although I can well understand that the current uncertainty will present opportunities for those who wish to buy a holiday home or permanant residence in Spain, I would have thought that there were far better investment opportunities for speculators than putting their money in spanish property. I think the Spanish property market would probably be the very last place that I would look to invest any serious money in.

    Richard

  • #101865
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    “I’m sorry, but your negativity has reached a stupid and unrealistic level. It’s probably personal, but who cares?”

    Rocker, i’ve had to restrain myself several times from calling you stupid, or an idiot, I’d suggest you do the same else we’ll end up lowering the tone of what is normally a friendly forum.

    There’s nothing stupid or unrealistic about my statement above, those statements are simply facts, I suggest you spend a bit of time researching the country you live in so that you might better know what’s going on.

    I merely suggested that there must be a personal reason, some personal tragedy connected with the Spanish property market that makes you post such continuous negativity, it really cannot be any other way.

    And then you start calling me names? For saying what must be obvious to anyone reading your posts.

  • #101870
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    Rocker, your positioning yourself as resident forum psychologist is humorous, but as with property and economics, its clear you know bugger all about subject.

  • #101872
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @rt21 wrote:

    Although I can well understand that the current uncertainty will present opportunities for those who wish to buy a holiday home or permanant residence in Spain, I would have thought that there were far better investment opportunities for speculators than putting their money in spanish property. I think the Spanish property market would probably be the very last place that I would look to invest any serious money in.
    Richard

    The sage of Omaha, Warren Buffet maintains when everyone is selling and heading for the exits that’s the best time to buy. I agree it takes a lot of courage to go against trends but that’s how money is made.
    I used to have a Spanish partner when in business many years ago in Spain. His philosophy on property investment was, don’t be the first in or the last out, be the one in the middle. He was referring to the cyclical nature of property developments in Spain. That man is now very wealthy indeed.
    The situation at the moment with many developments is the pioneers have gone and taken the loss, principally bankruptcy. The developments remains unfinished but will be desirable again at some point in the future. It will take investors to realise that. It is not possible to second guess when the upturn will come. However be assured it will.
    Timings the key and as I keep repeating, risk requires reward. The greater the risk the larger the reward.
    We all have differing motivations for posting on here. Mine is mild amusement during a quiet period in my business life.
    If I can help anyone understand investment, economics and markets that’s a bonus

  • #101873
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    adiep, Rocker, dont’ get personal or you lose the argument.

  • #101874
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @rt21 wrote:
    Although I can well understand that the current uncertainty will present opportunities for those who wish to buy a holiday home or permanant residence in Spain, I would have thought that there were far better investment opportunities for speculators than putting their money in spanish property. I think the Spanish property market would probably be the very last place that I would look to invest any serious money in.
    Richard

    The sage of Omaha, Warren Buffet maintains when everyone is selling and heading for the exits that’s the best time to buy. I agree it takes a lot of courage to go against trends but that’s how money is made.
    I used to have a Spanish partner when in business many years ago in Spain. His philosophy on property investment was, don’t be the first in or the last out, be the one in the middle. He was referring to the cyclical nature of property developments in Spain. That man is now very wealthy indeed.
    The situation at the moment with many developments is the pioneers have gone and taken the loss, principally bankruptcy. The developments remains unfinished but will be desirable again at some point in the future. It will take investors to realise that. It is not possible to second guess when the upturn will come. However be assured it will.
    Timings the key and as I keep repeating, risk requires reward. The greater the risk the larger the reward.
    We all have differing motivations for posting on here. Mine is mild amusement during a quiet period in my business life.
    If I can help anyone understand investment, economics and markets that’s a bonus

    It was funny reading the above post, but more than funny, it was nostalgic too. I too had a Spanish business partner many years ago, although my business wasn’t exactly property related, unless you stretched the meaning a bit.

    At one stage he advised me to expand and I agreed, reluctantly. Having got the taste for expansion, I wanted to expand some more and did, until he suddenly advised selling up immediately. This time I refused and we parted company.

    A year later I discovered that I should have listened. I got out in one piece, but lost a great deal of money for not listening to a wise Spaniard who knew much more about his own country than I ever will.

  • #101875
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Time was in Spain to be in business you needed a registered national to front the organisation. Days long gone.
    There is a more serious aspect to that. We as citizens of other countries cannot ever really get to grips with local markets, especially in the property business. It is, or rather was, a huge revenue stream for Spanish people, and they quite rightly kept the cream for themselves.
    Buying land was a classic example. It would be a completely hopeless exercise as an extranjero trying to negotiate desirable hectares of land which had been in Spanish family ownership for generations. However send along your partner who would spend all day with the family and the result would be entirely different.
    Writing about the past is a useless exercise. However today, if you have a strong business relationship with local people, or a singular trusted contact it’s an enormous advantage. However that takes years to develop.
    I still occasional see my old chum for lunch and need three days to recover. The intelligence I gain from his local knowledge is invaluable.
    Would he invest today? Yes if market prices represented realistic risk, which he and I agree they don’t.

  • #101876
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have a Spanish pal who has been a friend for years. I saw him earlier today. He’s a young man operating as an estate agent, developer and promoter. His father, uncles and cousins were big boys in the industry and have all now gone into administration for debts to the banks they will probably never be able to repay.

    My pal has survived by keeping small and now employs his father and uncles to work for him as builders, their original trade. He only takes on sellers with houses over 300K for sale and is happy to charge five percent commission on two or three sales a month. He seldom takes on sellers from the UK unless they are realistic over the required price and he doesn’t get involved in distressed sales or repossessions.

    He prefers the more realistic Germans and Scandinavians, and a lot of his buyers are Russian or Chinese who often pay cash. He avoids his own country folk whom he doesn’t trust.

    He’s been offered the chance to develop a large parcel of land with planning permission for 8,600 housing and commercial units; the sellers are a consortium to whom he is related. There is no competition, all the major developers have gone bust.

    But his large family is a family at war. They became rich during the boom and are now blaming each other for their demise. I’m not qualified to advise him, but I’m bursting to tell him to go for it. The required finance is horrendous, but banks are literally queuing at his door with offers, there is no one else left to lend their money to.

  • #101877
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I have a Spanish pal who has been a friend for years. I saw him earlier today. He’s a young man operating as an estate agent, developer and promoter. His father, uncles and cousins were big boys in the industry and have all now gone into administration for debts to the banks they will probably never be able to repay.

    My pal has survived by keeping small and now employs his father and uncles to work for him as builders, their original trade. He only takes on sellers with houses over 300K for sale and is happy to charge five percent commission on two or three sales a month. He seldom takes on sellers from the UK unless they are realistic over the required price and he doesn’t get involved in distressed sales or repossessions.

    He prefers the more realistic Germans and Scandinavians, and a lot of his buyers are Russian or Chinese who often pay cash. He avoids his own country folk whom he doesn’t trust.

    He’s been offered the chance to develop a large parcel of land with planning permission for 8,600 housing and commercial units; the sellers are a consortium to whom he is related. There is no competition, all the major developers have gone bust.

    But his large family is a family at war. They became rich during the boom and are now blaming each other for their demise. I’m not qualified to advise him, but I’m bursting to tell him to go for it. The required finance is horrendous, but banks are literally queuing at his door with offers, there is no one else left to lend their money to.

    If he builds it who will he sell it to, if all those who have already built can’t sell what would make him any different.
    I would advise him to wait

  • #101878
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    I have a Spanish pal who has been a friend for years.

    My pal has survived by keeping small trade….all the major developers have gone bust

    He’s been offered the chance to develop a large parcel of land with planning permission for 8,600 housing and commercial units……

    the required finance is horrendous.

    I’m not qualified to advise him, but I’m bursting to tell him to go for it.

    With friends like you, who needs enemies? 🙄

    Suggest you re-read your own words, and re-think before you burst.

  • #101879
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    Seems to be the case that property developers and estate agents for that matter, have a business model where house prices only ever go upwards. Not being a genius or warren buffet, but I would suspect that this business model is severely flawed. Well, I guess that’s the case, else why so many of the “big boys” going bust?

  • #101880
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A healthy dollop of commonsense would help their “business model” no end.

  • #101881
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    A healthy dollop of commonsense would help their “business model” no end.

    You’re right, of course you are. My pal doesn’t want my opinion anyway; he’s more clued up than I am. He won’t touch the deal because the planning permission includes a proviso for at least 25% ‘social’ housing, which will seriously reduce the earning capacity of any developer.

    On top of that, despite severe unemployment in Spain, the qualified craftsmen from Eastern Europe and Northern Africa have all gone home and local builders are not available in sufficient numbers for such a project.

    However, if all entrepreneurs strictly applied a safety-only approach, Sir Richard Branson would still be flogging records from a market stall and Sir Philip Green would be living in Wood Green rather than Monaco.

  • #101882
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m sorry, I’m back again. Maybe a link from an article in the lowly Daily Express, the most anti-European of our red-tops explains what I’m seeing on a daily basis here in Spain:

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/216824/Our-places-in-the-sun

    Things are looking up, honestly.

  • #101883
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    You must be reading that article differently to me. From what I can see, the Express are saying that a survey on French property revealed that no one is interested in buying there right now, so they (The Express) are looking at other locations that might be attractive.

    It doesn’t say there is a rush to buy in Spain neither does it indicate there’s any increased interest in Spain by British buyers.

    Here is the relevant quote from the blurb of the article.

    “AS a new survey reveals that the number of Britons seeking homes in France has fallen drastically, we reveal the other countries where we’re now looking for bargain idylls.”

    But I’d be interested to know where you are seeing this increase of interest on a daily basis. Do you hang out in estate agents?

  • #101884
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    You must be reading that article differently to me. From what I can see, the Express are saying that a survey on French property revealed that no one is interested in buying there right now, so they (The Express) are looking at other locations that might be attractive.

    It doesn’t say there is a rush to buy in Spain neither does it indicate there’s any increased interest in Spain by British buyers.

    Here is the relevant quote from the blurb of the article.

    “AS a new survey reveals that the number of Britons seeking homes in France has fallen drastically, we reveal the other countries where we’re now looking for bargain idylls.”

    But I’d be interested to know where you are seeing this increase of interest on a daily basis. Do you hang out in estate agents?

    Come on sunshine, we’ve already been ticked off by Mark, and rightly so. Can we leave it? I’ve got no interest in trading insults, I enjoy posting on this forum and am happy to admit that I enjoy living in Spain. If you have a problem with that, at least keep it civil.

  • #101885
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Note who the article quotes….Atlas International 😆 Truth is not many people are looking at buying anywhere. Too many soothsayers involved in the property market on here methinks….talk it up if you wish, won’t make any difference 😆

  • #101886
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Note who the article quotes….Atlas International 😆 Truth is not many people are looking at buying anywhere. Too many soothsayers involved in the property market on here methinks….talk it up if you wish, won’t make any difference 😆

    Atlas are just about the biggest crooks operating purely to con people from the UK to buy inferior Spanish property at silly prices and they’ve been at it for many years.

  • #101887
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    However, if all entrepreneurs strictly applied a safety-only approach, Sir Richard Branson would still be flogging records from a market stall and Sir Philip Green would be living in Wood Green rather than Monaco.

    No successful entrepreneur applies a safety-only approach. What they are brilliant at, and separates the men from the boys, is keeping an eye on the (ever-changing) market, adapting what they have to offer accordingly and forever seeing that niche/demand that no-one else has hammered to death.

    Developers in Spain got lazy in their vision. They thought the theme of pumping out luxury apartments attached to their own golf-course would run and run, as with the cheap townhouse-estate-for-the-masses. They were still making them like a rabid dog well into the sunset of the property boom. The lure of virtually free money via off-plan deposits financing the whole shebang just adding fuel to the fire – and their frenzy.

    One developer I know got so ahead of himself, he set up one off-plan project – pulled in deposits – and used that money to finance the build of a second development, the thinking being that when they sell, he can build the original one. Why build one when, while you’re at it, you can build two?! It was like one long acid party for some of these ex-farmer ‘directors’.

    Denial is lethal in business. Financial crisis or not, they simply had their eyes wide-shut regards to diminishing demand and a saturated market.

    Ah the ramblings of a mere woman. Now where did I put m’apples – am making a nice apple pie for Sunday lunch ‘afters’. 😆

  • #101888
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Things are looking up, honestly.

    You must be looking at things from the arse way up Rocker. The market is getting worse, much worse.

  • #101889
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Of course I’m talking Spain up, I live here, don’t I? But I try hard to keep it balanced.

    There are a million British expats living in Spain, a high proportion of them being pensioners. With the pound falling by 25% of its former value over the past three years, those who can no longer afford to stay have gone home; I’ve got no idea of the numbers but it still leaves most of us in place.

    We all have families back in the UK, and all receive regular visits from them and our friends. Taking my own experience and those of friends into consideration, that must account for something like ten million visitors from the UK each year, not strictly holidaymakers.

    A high proportion of those regular visitors can see how we live and are making plans to come and join us when they are able to, in future years.

    They will need somewhere to live . . .

  • #101890
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Ah the ramblings of a mere woman. Now where did I put m’apples – am making a nice apple pie for Sunday lunch ‘afters’. 😆

    Now that sounds good. Custard or Ice Cream accompaniment?

  • #101892
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    @adiep wrote:
    You must be reading that article differently to me. From what I can see, the Express are saying that a survey on French property revealed that no one is interested in buying there right now, so they (The Express) are looking at other locations that might be attractive.

    It doesn’t say there is a rush to buy in Spain neither does it indicate there’s any increased interest in Spain by British buyers.

    Here is the relevant quote from the blurb of the article.

    “AS a new survey reveals that the number of Britons seeking homes in France has fallen drastically, we reveal the other countries where we’re now looking for bargain idylls.”

    But I’d be interested to know where you are seeing this increase of interest on a daily basis. Do you hang out in estate agents?

    Come on sunshine, we’ve already been ticked off by Mark, and rightly so. Can we leave it? I’ve got no interest in trading insults, I enjoy posting on this forum and am happy to admit that I enjoy living in Spain. If you have a problem with that, at least keep it civil.

    Rocker, if i point out that you are ramping the Spanish property market, that is not being uncivil – neither is the act of disagreeing with you.

    I’d still like to know how come you are seeing the increase in interest on a daily basis. I live in spain and dont work in the property business, as such I very rarely see anyone engaged in purchasing a property, I suspect its the same for most expats. So how come you see it on a daily basis?

  • #101893
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @adiep wrote:

    Custard or Ice Cream accompaniment?

    Both of course. No messing when it comes to apple pie…

    @Rocker wrote:

    They will need somewhere to live . . .

    That problem already sorted, hundreds of thousands of empty places just waiting for them. Luvverly. 😈

    Keeping this short, the roast lamb needs basting. And yes adiep, cooked with rosemary, garlic, and lemon juice. Coming? 😀

  • #101894
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    I have the leftovers of a lamb byriani I made last night, which isnt bad, but yours sounds more tempting. Custard and ice cream, the thought never struck me before, but makes perfect sense, hot/cold/sour/sweet. Yum !

  • #101895
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Oh for heavens sake! 🙁 where’s the button to stop these e mails

  • #101896
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan recently wrote:

    I still occasional see my old chum for lunch and need three days to recover.

    Had lunch with your old chum yesterday, Mr. Grumpy? 😆

    Thank you adiep, you’ve just given me the perfect idea as to what to make tonight with the lamb leftovers!
    Lamb byriani – Mmmm.

  • #101902
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    However, if all entrepreneurs strictly applied a safety-only approach, Sir Richard Branson would still be flogging records from a market stall and Sir Philip Green would be living in Wood Green rather than Monaco.

    No successful entrepreneur applies a safety-only approach. What they are brilliant at, and separates the men from the boys, is keeping an eye on the (ever-changing) market, adapting what they have to offer accordingly and forever seeing that niche/demand that no-one else has hammered to death.

    Developers in Spain got lazy in their vision. They thought the theme of pumping out luxury apartments attached to their own golf-course would run and run, as with the cheap townhouse-estate-for-the-masses. They were still making them like a rabid dog well into the sunset of the property boom. The lure of virtually free money via off-plan deposits financing the whole shebang just adding fuel to the fire – and their frenzy.

    One developer I know got so ahead of himself, he set up one off-plan project – pulled in deposits – and used that money to finance the build of a second development, the thinking being that when they sell, he can build the original one. Why build one when, while you’re at it, you can build two?! It was like one long acid party for some of these ex-farmer ‘directors’.

    Denial is lethal in business. Financial crisis or not, they simply had their eyes wide-shut regards to diminishing demand and a saturated market.

    Ah the ramblings of a mere woman. Now where did I put m’apples – am making a nice apple pie for Sunday lunch ‘afters’. 😆

    An excellent evaluation of why the Spanish property market crashed three years ago, with perhaps just a little help from the collapse of Lehmans to speed up the inevitable.

    The transformation in farmers from riding along on donkeys to becoming property developers racing around in shiny BMWs was just before my time, but I saw and lived through the immediate aftermath.

    The Armani suits and gleaming cars couldn’t hide the calloused hands used to picking olives and how could the running of a finca compare to the responsibilities of running property developments stretching as far as the eye can see? Especially once the crooks took control.

    But sanity will return and many of the crooks will be banged up. I heard the Spanish housing minister proclaim the other day that in future every house sold in Spain will have to be totally legal. I suppose he’s looking at a very long future.

    I would have had lamb on Sunday, but forgot to take it out to defrost, so it was boring chicken yet again. And lamb without rosemary is like a farmer/director without a BMW.

  • #101906
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I heard the Spanish housing minister proclaim the other day that in future every house sold in Spain will have to be totally legal. I suppose he’s looking at a very long future”.
    It’s called doing his job properly by getting his ‘own house’ in order. Faffing around as in the case of the Prior’s in Vera only highlights that his Ministry has been acting totally incompetently.

    “….so it was boring chicken yet again”.
    No excuses Rocker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjvQ7T01tLo
    😉

  • #101907
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    “I heard the Spanish housing minister proclaim the other day that in future every house sold in Spain will have to be totally legal. I suppose he’s looking at a very long future”.

    An interesting quote from the spanish housing minister and one which could be interpreted in different ways. If implemented in accordance with its literal meaning and without any substantive relief in the current planning laws, then the oversupply of property could be resolved overnight because any property currently classed as illegal could not be offered for sale. (well I suppose in theory it could be offered for sale but in practise couldn’t be sold)

    Richard

  • #101909
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    richard, say they decided to legalise every property instead, would this then lead to the oversupply remaining and flooding the market thereby depressing it further?

    I wonder how many properties would then be unsold in Spain, up from it’s current guestimates of 1-2 million perhaps? 🙄

  • #101910
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    What does he/she mean totally legal ?? One is either pregnant or not !!!!!!!!!!!

  • #101911
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Come on Shakeel, you know the answer to your own question. You can’t be a little bit pregnant but you can be a little bit legal. Legal in the eyes of the local Town Hall’s Planning Officer who pocketed the backhander, illegal in the eyes of the Junta who’s suitably miffed that the build went against their PGOU…..and got no backhander.

  • #101912
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Isn’t there such a thing as a ‘phantom’ pregnancy? All the symptoms are present, but you’re not pregnant. A bit like those unfortunate illegal home owners, they’ve done everything properly, have a pile of legal papers from their town hall and lawyer, yet the far-away Junta in Seville informs them that they are not legal at all.

    It’s like the biryani clip posted by Charlie for which I’m very grateful. I can cook biryani, or I thought I could, until the real Indian chef came along and corrected me, several times.

  • #101913
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Addendum: i didn’t copy Charlie, my post is timed at 9.11pm, Charlie’s at 1.30pm, yet they appeared seconds apart. I assume that we live on different continents?

    (No we don’t, I’m an idiot).

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