El Soto de Marbella

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This topic contains 37 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 4 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #56910
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    http://www.exclusive-marbella.com/property/2-bed-apartment-in-elviria-122493

    I don’t know if this is a private sale, but this was originally sold for more than 400K euro.
    That is a hell of a price reduction and someone is going to or has lost alot of money.

  • #110247
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    We were taken there on inspection trip years ago and I thought it was pretty good, a nice area too, but then the prices did seem too high, so that does look a pretty good deal even in today’s market. I think it surrounds a 9 hole golf course too πŸ˜‰

    If I was buying down that way, I’d certainly prefer that over many other developments, however I’ve no idea what the service charges are there. Some smart developments’ charges have risen a lot πŸ™„ I see it says Freehold on the details, do you think that is correct as it’s an apartment? πŸ™„

  • #110249
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie: Leasehold concept is a very English thing dare a I say part of the feudel system.
    The amount of time that I have explained to my European friends the differencre betweel Leasehold & Freehold. They just cannot fathom it, that one could buy a property & has to handover the property to the Freeholder after ninety nine years.

    All properies in Europe are Freehold. I beleive they are covered by the ( ley vertical )

  • #110251
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Funny how they never publish the connected overheads. My best guess, minimum an annual €3k.
    If it’s cheap there’s a very good reason.
    You can rent one for €550 pcm. long term. Renters in Spain do not pay community, council or any other tax. Why buy and risk capital?

  • #110254
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I saw a recent quote regarding Spanish property reductions but probably applicable to any property:

    ‘A bargain priced property is not the same as a good value property’ πŸ™„

    Sounds a bit like a Confucius quote πŸ™„

    In this case it does look ‘a good value property’ considering where it is, subject to service/community charges and general costs! ‘Bargain price’ might apply to a less pleasant urbanisation I think of which there are many πŸ™„

    I too would probably rent though Logan, why risk it, but at least this one is a step in the right direction considering it’s location and build quality? πŸ˜‰

  • #110255
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @logan wrote:

    Funny how they never publish the connected overheads. My best guess, minimum an annual €3k.
    If it’s cheap there’s a very good reason.
    You can rent one for €550 pcm. long term. Renters in Spain do not pay community, council or any other tax. Why buy and risk capital?

    I once read something about the high cost of community fees there, can’t remember how much but more than 3000€. Would it really have been over 400K? I thought that was for the 4 bed penthouses. This is a fairly standard looking 2/2 box, kitchen looks basic and tiny. I have driven past them…they are way out in the sticks 😯 I would say if you travel on inland roads they would be closer to La Cala than Marbella.

  • #110256
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    hi GJ

    not a private sale, they are a real estate company.

    They are a respectable estate agency, and if you ever wanted to know more just PM me.

    community fees should be approximately 1.960 to 2.400€ per annum. depending on meterage, etc…

  • #110257
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @logan wrote:
    Funny how they never publish the connected overheads. My best guess, minimum an annual €3k.
    If it’s cheap there’s a very good reason.
    You can rent one for €550 pcm. long term. Renters in Spain do not pay community, council or any other tax. Why buy and risk capital?

    I once read something about the high cost of community fees there, can’t remember how much but more than 3000€. Would it really have been over 400K? I thought that was for the 4 bed penthouses. This is a fairly standard looking 2/2 box, kitchen looks basic and tiny. I have driven past them…they are way out in the sticks 😯 I would say if you travel on inland roads they would be closer to La Cala than Marbella.

    nearly, they’re in la mairena. Elviria exit, then drive into the mountains for about 15 minutes

  • #110259
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @shakeel wrote:

    @angie: Leasehold concept is a very English thing dare a I say part of the feudel system.
    The amount of time that I have explained to my European friends the differencre betweel Leasehold & Freehold. They just cannot fathom it, that one could buy a property & has to handover the property to the Freeholder after ninety nine years.

    All properies in Europe are Freehold. I beleive they are covered by the ( ley vertical )

    I’ve always wondered how people get away with marketing a property as being “for sale” when all that’s for sale is the lease. Although I think leaseholders are more protected these days from exploitative freeholders, the fact still remains that if you are buying a leasehold property you are not buying the property, you are buying the lease.

  • #110260
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Just had a look at the website. I know a couple of villas on there in Elviria and they are seriously overpriced 😯 One is on sale at 795K and only has 1 bathroom. Picked a couple of examples. The first one seems to have walls that are just painted brick!

    http://www.exclusive-marbella.com/property/3-bed-villa-for-sale-in-elviria-95475

    and would you pay 6 million euro for this πŸ™„

    http://www.exclusive-marbella.com/property/luxury-elviria-property-for-sale-126155

    I know where the property agent is situated but it didn’t used to be that name.

  • #110261
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    please remember, many agencies collaborate. don’t assume those listings are theirs.

    but yes, those prices, (IMO) seem ambitious to say the least

  • #110262
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @chopera. The leaseholders are not protected as you sugguest. Just google “Peverel” “Consort” for a flavour.

    The Court comes on the side of the freeholders the Leasehold valuation tribunal are toothless. The policticians do not take this further as they are in poclkets of these big landlord/Freeholders & the managing Agents.

  • #110263
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    community fees should be approximately 1.960 to 2.400€ per annum. depending on meterage, etc…

    So community fees at €2.5k, plus council tax, and utility standing charges. Say €3.5k at best.
    Long term rental income €6000. Declared at 24% if owner a Spanish tax payer, 22% UK . €1440 and €1320 respectively.
    Annual net profit around €1k less any rental agency fees for €150k investment. πŸ˜†

  • #110267
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    That is assuming you can rent it at all πŸ˜†

  • #110268
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    well, realistically what is the rental market for it?

  • #110269
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    I used to sell these properties for an agent and can assure you they were more than I said.
    They were good quality with fantastic views and very pricey.

    My point is a 2 bed 2 bath in Riviera de Sol in comparison must be worth50 to 90 K or if its AIFOS 25 K.

    Those of you that don’t know the development should know it was sold as being in a protected area surrounded by cork trees and not in Marbella but Monda hence cheaper regards community fees.
    The 9 hole course and clubhouse were part of the community and if still there expensive regards community fees regardless.
    This is a ground floor with private garden and only eclipsed by penthouses.

    I have also seen 2 bed 2 bath apartments in Cascadas de Calahonda for similar money.
    Katy must know what both used to sell for.
    The reduction in price is much more than 50%.
    I am sorry to say that its all over for years to come, as it used to be a fantastic life in the sun for many of us.
    I feel that some are even pleased that this has happened to Spain, I just feel sorry that a great experience ended.
    I wish all that went for the dream achieved it but don’t gloat about those that didn’t make it.

  • #110270
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    …….and have some sympathy for those that paid the price you sold them for at the top of the market and are left with a catastrophic capital loss plus a mill stone round their necks for years to come.

    But hey that’s just business? πŸ‘Ώ

  • #110271
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    I do Logan I lost my home, my marriage and have ended up in the UK with nothing .

    HOW ABOUT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • #110272
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Apologies, my remarks were not personally directed toward you. Just the corruption and the way things were done then and the consequences.

  • #110273
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Apology accepted Logan . Please understand most of us that worked in Real Estate during the boom years were also sold on the dream and lost out
    I never saw this coming in 2002 and like many others paid the price.
    It seems that some on the forum are almost pleased about this nightmare in Spain.
    Others seem to pretending it didn’t happen
    All I know is I miss how it was then .
    I listed those properties to show just how bad the crisis is but with deep sorrow.

  • #110276
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    GJ, sorry to hear about your woes, I don’t think people are pleased about the nightmare in Spain, just pleased that the mis-selling is hopefully ending and that prices have come down to more acceptable levels. It might seem that way because we still see the occasional hyping up of the market as back in the old days. Spain has needed more regulation for years in this industry, it amazes me that they don’t do it which could help restore some confidence in the market. It has to come from Government.

    There is a crisis in Spain but caused I think by greed and non regulation. Before it can get on it’s feet they need to shift the huge numbers of unsold property (but how) and regulate.

    I know staff in some of the larger agents who did as they were told and then ended up getting shafted by their bosses and not getting paid, a lot of people were ripped off. : πŸ™„ The whole debacle and model was copied by other countries as the agents moved and had a field day at people’s expense πŸ™„

  • #110277
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @ Angie. “Spain has needed more regulation for years in this industry ” Not only theregulations but the enforcement of the regulations.

    ” it amazes me that they don’t do it which could help restore some confidence in the market. It has to come from Government “

    Believe it or not and I have spoken to a cross section of people and they dont see any problem. talk about being an Ostrich !!! Did any one invested in the Ostrich eggs in South Africa ?????.

    “Before it can get on it’s feet they need to shift the huge numbers of unsold property and regulate “

    There does not seem to be any urgency or desire to sell. If they sell a hundred in a week they will sell 52000 in a year. 1,200,000 could take them 23 years.

    I will never accuse an Agent. It is his/her job to sell, a good saleman should be able to sell ice to the Eskimos. If the buyers are not aware the blame cannot be shifted onto the Agent.

    _________________
    Why do some agents lie continuously?

  • #110279
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Soto de Marbella, Santa maria Greenhills and a few others were massively overpriced. They were sold off plan as “luxury” developments. They claimed to have luxury fittings, kitchens etc. Take away all the hype and all that remained was a typical bog-standard 2/2 in not very accessible locations. The same could have been bought in many locations for around 185K. They were marketed at a time when it was buy buy and everyone wanted a chance to make their 30% or whatever was claimed. It was no better than tulipmania or the South sea bubble. Take away the overvaluations when new and then the property fall, factor in the high overheads and 115K sounds about right. I don’t gloat, I have friends caught up in the property scams and remind people when some over optimistic claims are made.

    I think a few of you on here are now sucked into the hype of discussing bargains, I have yet to see any in tourist areas. What price a bargain anyway if you have to sit on it for 10 years, pay taxes and community fees with little chance of renting.

  • #110280
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    If you believe that by fixing miss selling and putting an end to the corrupt practices that were obviously happening(in hindsight) will MAGICALLY fix all the problems then your sadly out of touch with how bad it has become for Brits in Spain.
    The global problems on top of Spains self inflicted problems have damaged the economy BEYOND fixing in any of our lifetimes WHATEVER is done.

    Much of the coast is now a ghost town in comparison to what it was and the communities have too little funds to maintain their pools and gardens.
    If you look back at my previous posts you will see I have said this before

    Sadly there is no way out for those that live or have holiday homes in Spain the life they had up to 2005 is GONE FOREVER.

    I wrote this in April 2009

    The big difference between the UK and the Costa Del Sol (not all of Spain) is that more or less the entire economy was based on the property market in one way or another in either holiday or retirement homes for Northern Europeans. Those of working age on the Costa Del Sol are finding it impossible to find work. Those retired have had there income cut by about 30% ( exchange rate). Those with holiday homes are drastically reducing the amount of time they are spending in Spain.

    Because of this the bars and restaurants are closing and there owners no longer have an income.
    The retail shops have little business any more with the massive reduction in other nationalities spending.
    The swimming pool people, air conditioning and general builders are all going slowly broke, not even mentioning those working in that dreaded timeshare industry that are also out of work (Whatever you think they used to spend money)
    I feel that most of the infrastructure of the Costa Del Sol will collapse from all these problems.
    By the way I have also heard that the golfers are staying away and this is high season for golf tourism.
    I’m sorry to say that those struggling on will have to admit defeat in the end and those that are not that badly affected financially will find more and more closed shops, bars and restaurants and those living on urbs will end up in decaying ghost towns with mostly squatters and Gypsies for neighbours.
    None of this I would want to happen and I hope I am wrong but I don’t think so.
    Also as an afterthought, don’t forget how many Spanish nationals were dependant on property here. Goodstich may not worry about the Lawyers and Notaries, but they employed staff and spent money, as for the constunction workers THEY are TOAST.
    Its all very sad.

  • #110295
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    No I don’t think things will ‘somehow be magically fixed for Spanish property if they stopped the mis-selling and corrupt practices, Spain left it too late, they should have done this years ago before more people found themselves in a mess.

    However, it might be a step in the right direction if they not only announced these measures but actually carried them out and quickly too otherwise things might get a whole lot worse πŸ™„

    Some say you can’t blame the agents, well that’s a load of tosh, they knew what they were doing, the corrupt ones that is, why didn’t Spain go after those bosses and bang them up before they fled to other countries leaving huge unpaid taxes and rents, unpaid staff who obeyed orders but got drunk on success swilling their bubbly in Banus after another so called mug got shafted, Like Vince Cable says about Banks, ‘it is a cesspit’ of corruption 😑

    As others have said on here, how do you absorb an over supply of 1.6 million new properties, plus how many re-sales, and realistically how long would that take? πŸ™„ It’s a nightmare for those trapped in unsaleable overpriced properties, as well as for the country!

    What’s the answer to it? ❓

  • #110299
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Angie wrote “What’s the answer to it? “

    Only time Angie, but as I said not in my lifetime,

    I am sorry to say things are going to get much worse IMO
    It could result in a collapse of the infrastructure of the homes that the Brits tend to own. πŸ˜₯

  • #110527
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve lived in El Soto for 4 years now and I find it a very peaceful relaxing place to live and just a few minutes drive away from the hustle and bustle of the Coast. I agree with most posters about how overpriced the developments were back in 2003 to 2006.

    We purchased off plan on our Development for €327,000 plus taxes for a 2 bed/2 bath 96 sqm apartment. It was a Viva Estates “Special” and they took 12% commissions per property. The rest is history now but El Soto is still a very nice place to live with fabulous views and a real Community feeling where you can meet people and develop good strong friendships.

    The market for property is still buoyant but it’s a buyers paradise now and wish I was looking to buy now! The bank who took over our developers unsold property are just putting them on the market at an unbelievable €145,000 and offering 70/80% mortgages. I actually paid a deposit of 140k on my apartment back in 2004!! Our Community Fees are €2,000 per an-um but they were €3,600 originally before we owners took control of the finances!

    But you have to accept that things move on and if you invested during the boom period then you may never recover your investment unfortunately!

  • #110827
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve lived in El Soto for 4 years now and I find it a very peaceful relaxing place to live and just a few minutes drive away from the hustle and bustle of the Coast. I agree with most posters about how overpriced the developments were back in 2003 to 2006.

    We purchased off plan on our Development for €327,000 plus taxes for a 2 bed/2 bath 96 sqm apartment. It was a Viva Estates “Special” and they took 12% commissions per property. The rest is history now but El Soto is still a very nice place to live with fabulous views and a real Community feeling where you can meet people and develop good strong friendships.

    The market for property is still buoyant but it’s a buyers paradise now and wish I was looking to buy now! The bank who took over our developers unsold property are just putting them on the market at an unbelievable €145,000 and offering 70/80% mortgages. I actually paid a deposit of 140k on my apartment back in 2004!! Our Community Fees are €2,000 per an-um but they were €3,600 originally before we owners took control of the finances!

    But you have to accept that things move on and if you invested during the boom period then you may never recover your investment unfortunately!

  • #110529
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    We were shown around the apartments by Ocean Estates surrounding the 9 hole golf course, and then later there was an off-plan development about to start further back over the river (stream) with a Porta Cabin sales office, I think the developers were Dutch but might be wrong.

    We backed off from this future development because the deal the Developers and Ocean insisted on was ‘B’ money and an under declaration on the contract, we would still have had to pay full price but quite a chunk in dodgy money : πŸ™„

    It seemed par for the course then in Spain. : πŸ™„

    So a 300k apartment was sold for say 2-250k on paper (the rest in cash) which now looks (because of the Spanish property crash) an even worse drop in price for those owners as they can only refer to the contract price. They can hardly say, ‘yes, but really we paid’ such and such price : πŸ™„

    In addition Ocean Estates had a much larger commission than 12%, more like 15-20% on this development 😑

  • #110829
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    We were shown around the apartments by Ocean Estates surrounding the 9 hole golf course, and then later there was an off-plan development about to start further back over the river (stream) with a Porta Cabin sales office, I think the developers were Dutch but might be wrong.

    We backed off from this future development because the deal the Developers and Ocean insisted on was ‘B’ money and an under declaration on the contract, we would still have had to pay full price but quite a chunk in dodgy money : πŸ™„

    It seemed par for the course then in Spain. : πŸ™„

    So a 300k apartment was sold for say 2-250k on paper (the rest in cash) which now looks (because of the Spanish property crash) an even worse drop in price for those owners as they can only refer to the contract price. They can hardly say, ‘yes, but really we paid’ such and such price : πŸ™„

    In addition Ocean Estates had a much larger commission than 12%, more like 15-20% on this development 😑

  • #110533
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Viva were running an exclusive at El Soto and directly employed the staff in the “on site” sales office. They did not have Viva uniforms and did not drive Viva branded company cars.
    Other agents would bring customers there but were not paid as much commission and would try to rubbish it.
    Viva also sold Marbella Hill View off plan from that office which was sold as the same qualities and facilities as El Soto.
    I understand there were all sorts of problems with Marbella Hill View but I had left Viva by then.
    I heard there were lengthy delays in the build and many complaints from the buyers and don’t know the final outcome.

  • #110833
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Viva were running an exclusive at El Soto and directly employed the staff in the “on site” sales office. They did not have Viva uniforms and did not drive Viva branded company cars.
    Other agents would bring customers there but were not paid as much commission and would try to rubbish it.
    Viva also sold Marbella Hill View off plan from that office which was sold as the same qualities and facilities as El Soto.
    I understand there were all sorts of problems with Marbella Hill View but I had left Viva by then.
    I heard there were lengthy delays in the build and many complaints from the buyers and don’t know the final outcome.

  • #110534
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I was one of the buyers at Marbella Hill View GJ. Yes, there were delays and quality issues but over the years the Community has put most things right and it’s a very pleasant place to visit and live.

    Viva Estates took everyone to the cleaners with this development and took advantage of the Developer as well as their clients. They added on a massive 40k per apartment for their own fees and sold all but one off plan. Quite a successful venture for VIVA!!!

  • #110834
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I was one of the buyers at Marbella Hill View GJ. Yes, there were delays and quality issues but over the years the Community has put most things right and it’s a very pleasant place to visit and live.

    Viva Estates took everyone to the cleaners with this development and took advantage of the Developer as well as their clients. They added on a massive 40k per apartment for their own fees and sold all but one off plan. Quite a successful venture for VIVA!!!

  • #110536
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @blackberryway wrote:

    I was one of the buyers at Marbella Hill View GJ. Yes, there were delays and quality issues but over the years the Community has put most things right and it’s a very pleasant place to visit and live.

    Viva Estates took everyone to the cleaners with this development and took advantage of the Developer as well as their clients. They added on a massive 40k per apartment for their own fees and sold all but one off plan. Quite a successful venture for VIVA!!!

    I am really glad you persisted and ended up with what I have always thought of as an attractive area. It must have been a hard fight which cost a fortune as well as heartache.
    I guess many others walked away and lost their deposits.

    They sold it off plan easily by lying that it would be the same as the original El Soto just next door.

    I know this because they sold them to staff that also fell for the pitch.

  • #110836
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @blackberryway wrote:

    I was one of the buyers at Marbella Hill View GJ. Yes, there were delays and quality issues but over the years the Community has put most things right and it’s a very pleasant place to visit and live.

    Viva Estates took everyone to the cleaners with this development and took advantage of the Developer as well as their clients. They added on a massive 40k per apartment for their own fees and sold all but one off plan. Quite a successful venture for VIVA!!!

    I am really glad you persisted and ended up with what I have always thought of as an attractive area. It must have been a hard fight which cost a fortune as well as heartache.
    I guess many others walked away and lost their deposits.

    They sold it off plan easily by lying that it would be the same as the original El Soto just next door.

    I know this because they sold them to staff that also fell for the pitch.

  • #110539
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes GJ, It was a long haul fighting the Developer and our Lawyers were very close to Viva too so we had to appoint independent ones. Viva trained their staff well as so many were taken in by their smooth sales patter. I sometimes see Chris McCarthy posting on the forums. He’s a very clever business man but some of his staff treated their clients very badly when things were going badly wrong!

    Some investors won their cases in Court and others sadly lost their deposits. The Bank own them now and amazingly they approached me recently to ask if I would like to represent them with selling their remaining properties!!

    It was a bit ironic really having battled with the developer for so long but like everything in life you should try to learn from your mistakes and move on if you can?

  • #110839
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes GJ, It was a long haul fighting the Developer and our Lawyers were very close to Viva too so we had to appoint independent ones. Viva trained their staff well as so many were taken in by their smooth sales patter. I sometimes see Chris McCarthy posting on the forums. He’s a very clever business man but some of his staff treated their clients very badly when things were going badly wrong!

    Some investors won their cases in Court and others sadly lost their deposits. The Bank own them now and amazingly they approached me recently to ask if I would like to represent them with selling their remaining properties!!

    It was a bit ironic really having battled with the developer for so long but like everything in life you should try to learn from your mistakes and move on if you can?

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