Does anyone understand spanish justice?

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This topic contains 42 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 8 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #53528
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Not about property this time but just an example.

    A few years ago a young girl was murdered in La Cala (CDS). A local woman who had a lesbian relationship with the girl’s Mother was accused of killing her. (Mainly on hearsay and botched evidence!) The woman spent 17 months in prison until (after another murder) the crime was linked by DNA to a British guy.

    This week her case for compensation came before the courts. (Since coming out of prison she has not been able to work and she had a highly paid job. She is now in arrears with the mortgage and has debts to lawyers etc.) Well, the Judges threw out the case…reason…They judged the case on the evidence presented to them so it is not their fault she was wrongly convicted 😯 The case has only one more hearing and the Minister of Justice has to decide if she will get any compensation!

    It doesn’t seem logical, then neither do the cases which find in favour of the developer.

  • #76696
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    No but its not as clear cut as that. There was some evidence against her and she was involved with the family as well, so it may have been genuine for the police to suspect her.

    The Spanish will not want to allow a compesation culture either and bee seen as a soft touch.

    Difficult to make a fair judgment without all the facts and also probably the lower courts are leaving it in the hands of the higher ones

    Also the lady in question did get a lot of money for her story in the papers and TV – sensationalized at the time!!

  • #76700
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    She’ll have to go to the European courts to get paid out and she will win but not in Spain

    Personally I love this place and I believe you take the thing as a whole, you cant pick and choose which parts you want to belong to.

    Andalucia is the greatest place on the planet and I love it. Ive travelled most of the world and seen some fantastic places but this is Home

  • #76716
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Very relevant…thought I had the wrong thread then 🙄

    Whatever all the rumours and inuendo are this woman was officialy cleared in the courts and as such should be compensated for 17 months of wrongful imprisonment. Although she is free she is still suffering for it!

  • #76720
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Katy

    Does anyone understand Spanish justice?, its certainly not like we are used to at home, but they do it there way,always have done,always will, its there perogatiive.

    I understand you are bringing to our attention a particular case but the expat ferternity will never be able to change the system and nor should they.
    The Spanish legal system will only ever change by evolution,education and EEC requirements

    Spanish courts dont do compasion, we may be better served in some circumstances if the British followed suit

    Muggers Robbers etc

    Steve

  • #76723
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Stevev6 wrote:

    Hi Katy

    Does anyone understand Spanish justice?, its certainly not like we are used to at home, but they do it there way,always have done,always will, its there perogatiive.

    I understand you are bringing to our attention a particular case but the expat ferternity will never be able to change the system and nor should they.
    The Spanish legal system will only ever change by evolution,education and EEC requirements

    Spanish courts dont do compasion, we may be better served in some circumstances if the British followed suit

    Muggers Robbers etc

    Steve

    You put it so much better than me

  • #76736
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Stevev6 wrote:

    Hi Katy

    Does anyone understand Spanish justice?, its certainly not like we are used to at home……..
    Steve

    That bit made me laugh…..

    British Justice, it’s the best in the world…..

    Colin Stagg falsely imprisoned for the murder of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common, London in 1992, but cleared in 1994.The case was thrown out out on the grounds that police had used a “honey trap” plot in a bid to encourage him to confess. On 28 November 2007, Robert Napper was charged with her murder on the basis of new DNA evidence.

    Timothy Evans’ wife and young daughter were killed in 1949. Evans was convicted of killing of his daughter and hanged. It was later found that the real murderer was Reg Christie, another tenant in the same house, who eventually killed six women. Evans was the first person in Britain to receive a posthumous free pardon.

    Derek Bentley, executed for murdering a police officer. The charge was based on the fact that during a police chase, he shouted to an armed friend ‘Let him have it’. The case is often said to be a miscarriage of justice, and the verdict was overturned half a century later. It should be noted, however, that the grounds for overturning the verdict was that the trial had not been fair, due to various procedural defects. Had Bentley still been alive, there would certainly have been a retrial; he was not pronounced innocent by the Court of Appeal.

    Stephen Downing was convicted of the murder of Wendy Sewell in a Bakewell churchyard in 1973. The 17-year-old had a reading age of 11 and worked at the cemetery as a gardener. The police made him sign a confession that he was unable to read. The case gained international notoriety as the “Bakewell Tart” murder. After spending 27 years in prison, Stephen Downing was released on bail in February of 2001, pending the result of an appeal. His conviction was finally overturned in January 2002.

    John Joseph Boyle aged 18 was convicted under the pretences of an alleged confession at Belfast City Commission on 14 October 1977 of possession of firearms and ammunition with intent to endanger life, and membership in the I.R.A. He was sentenced to ten years in prison on the first count, and to two years in prison on the second count, the terms to run concurrently. A suspended sentence of two years imprisonment imposed for a previous offence was also invoked, making a total of twelve years in prison. When released he underwent a long fight to prove his innocence. In 2003, his conviction was quashed but he has been denied compensation.

    Andrew Evans served more than 25 years for the murder of 14-year-old Judith Roberts. He confessed to the 1972 murder after seeing the girl’s face in a dream. His conviction was overturned in 1997.

    In 1974 Judith Ward was convicted of murder of several people caused by a number of IRA bombings 1973. She was finally released in 1992.

    The Birmingham Six were fraudulently convicted in 1975 of planting two bombs in pubs in Birmingham in 1974 which killed 21 people and injured 182. They were finally released in 1991.

    The Guildford Four were wrongly convicted in 1975 of being members of the Provisional IRA and planting bombs in two Guildford pubs which killed four people. They served nearly 15 years in prison before being released in 1989. (See Tony Blair’s apology under The Maguire Seven below.)

    The Maguire Seven were convicted in 1976 of offences related to the Guildford and Woolwich bombings of 1974. They served sentences ranging from 5 to 10 years. Giuseppe Conlon died in prison. Their convictions were quashed in 1991. On 9 February 2005 British Prime Minister Tony Blair issued a public apology to the Maguire Seven and the Guildford Four for the miscarriages of justice they had suffered. He said: “I am very sorry that they were subject to such an ordeal and such an injustice. They deserve to be completely and publicly exonerated.”

    Stefan Kiszko was convicted in 1976 of the sexual assault and murder of an 11-year old Lesley Molseed in 1975. He spent 16 years in prison before he was released in 1992, after a long campaign by his mother. He died of a heart attack the following year at the age of 41. His mother died a few months later. In 2007, Ronald Castree, of Shaw, near Oldham, was found to have the same DNA as Lesley’s attacker and was convicted at Bradford Crown Court. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

    The Bridgewater Four were convicted in 1979 of murdering Carl Bridgewater, a 13-year-old paper boy who was shot on his round when he disturbed robbers at a farm in Staffordshire. Patrick Molloy died in jail in 1981. The remaining three were released in 1997.

    The Cardiff Three, Steven Miller, Yusef Abdullahi and Tony Paris were falsely jailed for the murder of prostitute Lynette White, stabbed more than 50 times in a frenzied attack in a flat above a betting shop in Cardiff’s Butetown area on Valentine’s Day 1988, in 1990 and later cleared on appeal. In 2003, Jeffrey Gafoor was jailed for life for the murder. The breakthrough was due to modern DNA techniques used on evidence taken from the crime scene. Subsequently, in 2005, 9 retired Police Officers and 3 serving Officers were arrested and questioned for false imprisonment, conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and misconduct in public office.

    Peter Fell, a former hospital porter, described in the media as a “serial confessor” and a “fantasist”, was sentenced to two life terms in 1984 for the murder of Ann Lee and Margaret “Peggy” Johnson, who were killed whilst they were out walking their dogs in 1982. His conviction was overturned in 2001.

    Sally Clark was convicted in 1996 of the murder of her two small sons Christopher and Harry, and spent 3 years in jail, finally being released in 2003 on appeal. The convictions were based solely on the analysis of the deaths by the Home Office Pathologist Alan Williams, who failed to disclose relevant information about the deaths, and backed up by the paediatric professor Sir Roy Meadow, whose opinion was pivotal in several other child death convictions, many of which have been overturned or are in the process of being challenged. In 2005 Alan Williams was found guilty of serious professional misconduct and barred from practicing pathology for 3 years. In July 2005 Meadows was also struck off for serious professional misconduct and barred. Sally Clark became an alcoholic as a result of her ordeal and died of alcohol poisoning in 2006.

    Angela Canning also jailed wrongly for 4 years on the now discredited evidence of Roy Meadows. Angela was later stalked by a jail inmate she befriended, and the strain of the wrongful conviction destroyed her marriage.

    Donna Anthony, 25 at the time, was wrongly jailed in 1998 for the death of her 11 month old son, and finally released in 2005, also because of the opinion of Sir Roy Meadow.

    The Gurnos Three, also known as the Merthyr Tydfil Arson Case (Annette Hewins, Donna Clarke and Denise Sullivan). Wrongly convicted of the arson attack on the home of Diane Jones, aged 21, in October 1995. Someone had torn away part of the covering of her front door and poured in petrol to start the fire. The fire spread so rapidly that Ms Jones and her two daughters, Shauna, aged two and Sarah-Jane, aged 13 months, were all killed. The convictions of Ms Hewins and Ms Clarke were quashed at the Court of Appeal in February 1998 and a retrial ordered in the case of Ms Clarke.

    Michelle and Lisa Taylor, wrongly convicted for the murder in 1991 of Alison Shaughnessy, a bank clerk who was the bride of Michelle’s former lover. The trial was heavily influenced by inaccurate media reporting and deemed unfair.

    Paul Blackburn was convicted in 1978 when aged 15 of the attempted murder of a 9-year old boy, and spent more than 25 years in 18 different prisons, during which time he maintained his innocence. He said he had never considered saying he was guilty to secure an earlier release because it was a matter of “integrity”. He was finally released in May 2005 when the Court of Appeal ruled his trial was unfair and his conviction ‘unsafe’.

    The Cardiff Newsagent Three, Michael O’Brien, Darren Hall and Ellis Sherwood, were wrongly convicted for the murder of a newsagent, Phillip Saunders. On October 12 1987 Mr Saunders, 52, was battered with a spade outside his Cardiff home. The day’s takings from his kiosk had been stolen, and five days later he died of his injuries. The three men spent 11 years in jail before the Court of Appeal quashed the conviction in 1999. The three have since been paid six figure compensation, but South Wales Police had still not apologised or admitted liability for malicious prosecution or misfeasance.

    Andrew Adams, wrongly convicted of the murder of a retired teacher. His conviction was finally quashed on 12th Jan 2007, after spending 14 years in jail.

    David Carrington-Jones was released on 16th October 2007 after spending 6 years in jail for a rape he did not commit, having been previously found guilty on two counts of rape and sexual assault against a pair of teenage sisters in December 2000. One of the accusers subsequently admitted to police she made up the allegations against her stepfather Mr Carrington-Jones because she ‘did not like him’. It has transspired that the girl had previously made up other allegations of rape against her brother, fiancee, stepfather and even a customer at her work, but the jury was not told of this, and Mr Carrington- Jones was sentenced to a ten-year jail term at Lewes Crown Court. He was later refused parole hearings because he refused to admit his guilt. Mr Carrington-Jones is said to be discussing claiming compensation.

    Also, don’t forget, Danny McNamee:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_McNamee

    The M25 three

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M25_Three

    Jonathan Jones

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Jones_%28Wrongful_conviction%29

    Sion Jenkins

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sion_Jenkins

    Barry George

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_George

  • #76737
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You’ve taken the time & trouble to list how ever many examples you quote in your long post, stemming all the way back to 1949….

    Your point being?

  • #76738
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @MrBen wrote:

    You’ve taken the time & trouble to list how ever many examples you quote in your long post, stemming all the way back to 1949….

    Your point being?

    It’s taken hardly any time and no trouble whatsoever as I’ve just cut and pasted from Wikipedia.

    My point is I am surprised how any Briton can complain about another countries justice and then hold our’s up as shining example of how “we” do things better!

    Hazard a guess at how many lying police officers from the 70’s & 80’s where ever held accountable for their fit ups….

  • #76739
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Some of those I still think of as guilty they only got off on technicality. (and a bit of help from the great UK media) I also don’t see the point, or you missed the point I was trying to make. Although this woman was cleared of involvement and someone else has been convicted the justice system denied any compensation on the grounds it was not their fault.

    I wasn’t making a comparison between justice systems, its a spanish forum…but feel free to carry on laughing 🙄

  • #76740
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Some of those I still think of as guilty they only got off on technicality. (and a bit of help from the great UK media) I also don’t see the point, or you missed the point I was trying to make. Although this woman was cleared of involvement and someone else has been convicted the justice system denied any compensation on the grounds it was not their fault.

    I wasn’t making a comparison between justice systems, its a spanish forum…but feel free to carry on laughing 🙄

    Well, I was actually replying to the person who was saying in the usual arrogant British way….”well, this sort of thing wouldn’t happen back home”….Of course we have to pay compensation….we’ve locked up far too many innoncent people!

  • #76741
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jaseywasey wrote:

    My point is I am surprised how any Briton can complain about another countries justice and then hold our’s up as shining example of how “we” do things better!

    Hazard a guess at how many lying police officers from the 70’s & 80’s where ever held accountable for their fit ups….

    I can’t be bothered to frankly, no doubt you’ll cut & paste some vast swathe of info culled from ‘Wikipedia’ or some other equally dubious source.

    Like the Lady says. She’s not asking for comparisons between countries respective legal systems. If you feel that strongly then go post somewhere else with your experiences of the British legal system.

  • #76742
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    However, the judges in the Brigdewater Three case ruled that, 25% of the compensation paid to the victims of the miscarriage, must be returned to cover their living costs whilst in jail 😯

    Only in rip-off Britain, could you be charged for your board & lodgings whilst in jail for a crime you didn’t commit 😯

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/6449495.stm

  • #76743
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @MrBen wrote:

    @jaseywasey wrote:
    My point is I am surprised how any Briton can complain about another countries justice and then hold our’s up as shining example of how “we” do things better!

    Hazard a guess at how many lying police officers from the 70’s & 80’s where ever held accountable for their fit ups….

    I can’t be bothered to frankly, no doubt you’ll cut & paste some vast swathe of info culled from ‘Wikipedia’ or some other equally dubious source.

    Like the Lady says. She’s not asking for comparisons between countries respective legal systems. If you feel that strongly then go post somewhere else with your experiences of the British legal system.

    I’ll reply to you slowly Mr.Ben, so you can understand.

    I was answering Stevev6, who in response to the OP’s discussion of the Rocio Wanninkof case and subsequent claim of compensation by Dolores Vázquez, he speculated how “such a thing couldn’t happen back home”

    That is the point I was answering.

    Of course, Anthong King, the killer of Rocio Wanninkof and Sonia Carabantes, should never have been free…in 1986, when know as Tony Bromwhich, he was found guilty for a series of sex attacks in North London, and sentenced to a pitiful 10 years in jail of which he only served 9.

    If we had any sort of criminal justice system in the UK, scum like Tony King, would be locked up for the rest of their lives, instead the police seem happy to fit up any local idiot, rather than find the person responsible.

    With the regard to your point about Wikipedia, if there are any cases listed that you believe contain erroneous information, I am quite happy to provide an alternative source for you.

    I have had no experiences with the Brtish legal system, apart from a parking ticket about 18 years ago, which I paid.

  • #76744
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Jaseywasey 😉
    Perhaps it may be a good and do as Mr Ben suggests and he can stop arguing with an idiot. 😆

    Frank 8)

  • #76745
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Oops. As Just Frank points out – I stand corrected.

    Having broken my own forum signature in responding to jaseywasey’s long, tedious, cut & pasted dialogue, his very first contribution on here, bless him.

    jasseywasey, this is a spanish property insight forum. If you have an issue with the British legal system then go find an appropriate forum which deals specifically with those matters (try a google search) and copy & paste from ‘Wikipedia’ on there to your hearts content.

    Now I really should get back to observing my cardinal rule!

    “Never argue with an idiot, they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”

  • #76746
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Jasseywanker

    ops sorry

    Jasseywassey

    Does anyone understand Spanish justice?, its certainly not like we are used to at home, but they do it there way,always have done,always will, its there perogatiive.

    I understand you are bringing to our attention a particular case but the expat ferternity will never be able to change the system and nor should they.
    The Spanish legal system will only ever change by evolution,education and EEC requirements

    Spanish courts dont do compasion, we may be better served in some circumstances if the British followed suit

    Muggers Robbers etc

    Got the feeling early on that you wanted to argue ith me

    Where do I say this dont happen in Britian??????????????????

    Go somewhere else with your verbal diarrhea

    SV

  • #76747
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Self priase is no praise.

  • #76748
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @jaseywasey wrote:

    I’ll reply to you slowly Mr.Ben, so you can understand.

    I was answering Stevev6, who in response to the OP’s discussion of the Rocio Wanninkof case and subsequent claim of compensation by Dolores Vázquez, he speculated how “such a thing couldn’t happen back home”

    That is the point I was answering.

    Of course, Anthong King, the killer of Rocio Wanninkof and Sonia Carabantes, should never have been free…in 1986, when know as Tony Bromwhich, he was found guilty for a series of sex attacks in North London, and sentenced to a pitiful 10 years in jail of which he only served 9.

    If we had any sort of criminal justice system in the UK, scum like Tony King, would be locked up for the rest of their lives, instead the police seem happy to fit up any local idiot, rather than find the person responsible.

    With the regard to your point about Wikipedia, if there are any cases listed that you believe contain erroneous information, I am quite happy to provide an alternative source for you.

    I have had no experiences with the Brtish legal system, apart from a parking ticket about 18 years ago, which I paid.

    You started off reasonably coherently in your retort to me, then you just meandered off on one again, about from around the “Of course” paragraph. Thankfully you spared us all another lengthy ‘Wikipedia’ copy & paste exercise.

    You must have a real “Beef” with the British legal system or feel some huge injustice from it? Or perhaps you’re just a very confused individual to place your first posting, a lengthy ‘Wikipedia’ cut & paste discourse onto a Spanish Property forum ??

    Just for your information ‘Wikipedia’ is a free, open source encyclopedia to which anyone can upload anything For that reason it’s probably best not relied on as a de facto reference to anything…

  • #76749
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    It seems to me that jaseywasey has totally missed the point Steve was trying to make and in his response has confused judicial outcomes with judicial systems/processes. And later compounded the misunderstanding by widening the topic to include the police, who are not part of the judiciary. Sure there have been many miscarriages of justice within the British judicial system and unfortunately such outcomes will continue because no system is foolproof. How can it be when decisions and outcomes rely not only on points of law but also on information/evidence inputted into the system, which in some cases have been found later to be dubious.

    The British legal system developed through custom, case law and legislation over many centuries. It is not perfect but it is ever changing and adapting. My impressions are that the Spanish legal system is not as highly developed in some areas because it is still a relatively new democracy and I think this was the point that Steve was trying to make

  • #76751
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi

    Firstly an apologise to Jassywasey,I shoudn’t have adressed you as I did, to much vino late at night.

    rt21 and Mr Ben

    Thanks for trying to explain my position.

    Shakeel. no self praise,just a need to not be miss quoted.

    THINK WE NEED TO GET BACK TO SPANISH PROPERTY.

    SV

  • #76752
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I have had no experiences with the British legal system, apart from a parking ticket about 18 years ago, which I paid “.

    Yes, this is the level where the legal system works. We all know it has nothing to do with the law, it a question of extraction of money from an easy source. Why is paying the fine make is it acceptable in the eyes of a society that all your sins have been washed away.

  • #76753
    Profile photo of rt21
    rt21
    Participant

    The odd thing about parking on a yellow line in the UK during controlled hours is that the act of doing so is said to be a contravention of the regulations rather than an offence. As a result anyone caught contravening the regulations is not classed as a criminal.

    I do not know whether the same principle is adopted in other E.U. countries.

  • #76758
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Stevev6 wrote:

    Hi

    Firstly an apologise to Jassywasey,I shoudn’t have adressed you as I did, to much vino late at night.

    rt21 and Mr Ben

    Thanks for trying to explain my position.

    Shakeel. no self praise,just a need to not be miss quoted.

    THINK WE NEED TO GET BACK TO SPANISH PROPERTY.

    SV

    Don’t apologise. You just said what we were all thinking. In Vino Veritas.

  • #76761
    Profile photo of abolex
    abolex
    Participant

    Dear friends,
    Having dealt with both the english legal system and the spanish legal system, I think we all have to admit that none is perfect and, at least, the Spanish legal system is so much chepaer and accesible.
    I know of many cases in UK that do not go to Court because its just too expensive to bother and this normally ends on a deal or on a “forget it, its too much”.
    Just a thought.
    Merry Xmas to all!

  • #76767
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve received an email from a lady who has instructed a lawyer in the U.K. to sue a Spanish developer for a large amount of money (no LFO etc). This lawyer has told her that “Spanish Law can be applied in a British Court of Justice” & that she does not have to go through the Spanish Courts to do this 😯 😯

    Would welcome your comments on this, as I cannot see how this is possible ❗ She is not suing a UK Agent or Builder, but a Spanish Developer. Surely British Courts work on British Justice alone? Or is there some obscure way around this ❓
    But could you imagine getting the Spanish defence team over here ❓ It’s hard enough trying to do this in Spain ❗

    This lady has already paid the lawyer’s fee. On a positive note, at least the Law Society takes complaints far more seriously than the Colegio.

  • #76768
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think the lady may have misunderstood the situation. I have a feeling that the solicitor may have advised her that a Spanish Company can be taken to Courts in UK and this applies across EU, i.e. any business/individual can be sued in any of the member state.

    The Court order/decisions are enforceable in all member states. In theory.

  • #76771
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I beg to differ with Abolex, I have not found the Spanish legal system “cheaper or more accessible”, at least not for the right reasons.

    Firstly, the local Spanish lawyers we used may have been cheap initally but were part of the corruption that got us into this property mess. Therefore, in the long term, they have not been cheaper.
    The Spanish/English lawyers we used to clarify the situation agreed a “transparent” price and then did not answer our questions fully; left it open and invited us to ask questions and then tried to charge us extra for the privilege. Their fee was just going to keep rolling up the longer we were with them. Not cheap!

    More accessible! Yes, there are too many lawyers claiming to know Spanish property law but either dont or just apply it as it suits! It will not be truly accessible while there is corruption in the Judicial system that prevents people getting justice, ie for having bought in good faith and been ripped off by developers who knowingly sold properties without licenses and permissions. I have been put off following this route just yet due to the expense and inaccessibility to fairness, common sense and honesty, which should be fundamental to an effective judicial system.
    Especially while those who do commit the frauds are allowed to get away with it, spend the ill gotten money with impunity and carry on with their lives while others cant.

    Sorry if this has gone a bit off the thread of discussion. Look! No Wikipedia quotes in sight!

    Happy New Year

  • #76772
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Agree with Fran 🙂
    6 years and counting for a blatant abuse of the legal system with interest and legal costs multiplying as we sit here helpless.
    Have to say and excuse the pun but think this is a load of abolix. 🙄

    Frank 8)
    Hope everyone had a good Christmas and wish all with pending cases all the very best for 2008

  • #76818
    Profile photo of abolex
    abolex
    Participant

    I am very sorry when I read the answers to my email.
    The Spanish legal system does work, but it is fundamental to deal with the right people and not with someone that intends to rip you off.
    Secondly, so many times I find foreigners that being used to buy a house through a solicitor in their countries, come to Spain and do not get legal advice just because “it is not necessary”. Probably in Spain is more important that anywhere else, because there is too many people here wanting to abuse the foreigners;
    In any case, I just hope others that read these lines will get the proper advice and not get involved in these stories anymore.

  • #76823
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ” not with someone that intends to rip you off.”

    So, how is one to know ? I have many Spanish friends from all walks of life and have asked them to recommend me a lawyer. They could not not.

    I am sorry but the “colegio de Abagados” should be getting rid of such lawyers and should keep a list of honest professional lawyers and when requested by public should provide a list of say 3 or 5 lawyers. t

    The sad fact is that the colegio does not take action. Personally I feel that the staff of the colegio who are there because of their contacts are neither motivated nor trained or have interest in protecting/upholding the profession.

    I am sorry for all the above negative view but I know many Spanish lawyers including two judges and as a friend over a into they share
    my views.

    Happy new year to you.

  • #76872
    Profile photo of abolex
    abolex
    Participant

    Shakeel: I agree. The Law School should be more useful, in particular to remove crooks and recommend honest lawyers. This alone would be very useful, but next question is, who would decide about this? on what basis? I guess as it is not going to happen, its probably not worth the discussion.
    Cheers

  • #76874
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Abolex: At least we agree on something. I find your attitude very defeatist when you said this will not happen. I hope that you don’t have the same negative attitude towards your clients.

    It, will be an evolving process and years of incompetence and irresponsible attitudes will not change over night. Once the lawyers sees that actions are being taken and few lawyers have been struck off their list and their firms have been named & shamed. The list should also be are sent to the Courts etc. An example will be set.

    In, UK I have seen myself in legal gazette a list of lawyers, his /her firm and the reason for them being struck off is published. Does this happen in Spain ???????

    “who would decide about this “

    A high level corruption/disciplinary committee should be set up with dedicated professionals with an unblemished records in public services. They should than set standards, guidelines/working practises and a regular Audit of there recommendations be carried out. Any serious deviations from the standards and the lawyer should be struck out.

  • #76875
    Profile photo of abolex
    abolex
    Participant

    Yes, I guess.
    Answering your first comment, I have to say that I have never been blacklisted by any client as I do not play that sort of “corruption game”. In fact, I fight (in Court) against some that do play it.
    Best thing to have is happy clients that see positive results and introduce you to new clients.
    Cheers

  • #76877
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Abolex: Glad to hear your comments and the relationship that you have established with your clients and keep up the good work.

    Can, you please advise me and the forum users. If the the legal gazette in Spain list the name of struck off lawyers or if a lawyer has ever been struck off. Irrespective of the nature of complaint against them.

  • #76878
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Shakeel, personally I do not think that public “naming & shaming” will happen. After all, it would give the profession a bad name!! 😉 The first law firm we used in Marbella has been denounced many times. I know for a fact that the senior partner was suspended for a period of time by the Collegio de Abogados. He ignored it in the same way that he ignored a summons from the Collegio to attend a meeting with our current lawyer to discuss the reason why his company kept €7500+ of our money when no apartment was ever built due to no planning permission. The Collegio took no further action against him or his company. They continue to practice in Marbella. 😈

  • #76880
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ” I do not think that public “naming & shaming “

    It, should happen if a sincere cleaning up is expected. I am also sure that naming and shaming will not deter these lawyers. If they have any decency or they are honest they will not find themselves in the first place. By naming & shaming there will be people who will aware of them and will not use them.

    “I know for a fact that the senior partner was suspended for a period of time by the Collegio de Abogados. He ignored “

    This is what I mean by impotent. The fact that he did not turn up without a good reason, should be construed as his guilt and he should have been struck off once the facts were established.

    Advising the Courts means that when a struck off lawyer next time turns up at a Court. It should be treated as fraud/criminal offence and the case should not be heard until the client finds another lawyer.

    The client should be compensated for the up front fee that had been paid to such a lawyer. The compensation should be paid out from the legal Insurance and this in turn means that no future policy should be issued to him or his firm

  • #76881
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Shakeel, perhaps I should invite you to attend the Court for the case we now have to bring this person to account? You can then see first hand what kind of justice there is/is not! We have had to pay more money to bring this action to recover our money from this law firm. Hopefully we will get some justice. (He also did not attend an earlier “out of court hearing” .He HAS to appear this time. 🙂 )

    The lawyers that I am talking about have changed the company name several times. They are now an S.L. and so have limited liability..apparently. 😕

  • #76899
    Profile photo of abolex
    abolex
    Participant

    Claire, Now (at least in theory) Lawyers cannot be behind an SL.
    The new proffesional limited companies (SLP) are specially designed for professionals that want to join and get together via the company structure.
    This does not limit the responsibility as by Law the Lawyers under these Professional companies share personal responsibility with the company (i.e. are personally liable).
    And Lawyers (as well as other professionals) that get together have to become a SLP, and if they were a SL, they have now to convert to a SLP.
    Cheers

  • #76900
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I was going to reply on the same lines as abolex not in so much in depth as I am not a lawyer.

    In a situation for protection under limited liability. Its the Directors who become personally liable. They the Directors than taken out a personal Insurance to cover themselves.

    I, am well aware of the Spanish Justice system as I have stated on the forum I have Spanish Lawyers and two Judges as friends. I do ask them about the going on in their profession as my father was a lawyer and I have read contract and Company law.

    I, can accept a differencing legal point of view but down right fraud and negligence I cannot.

  • #76901
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I can accept a differencing legal point of view but down right fraud and negligence I cannot.

    I agree entirely.

  • #76905
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire

    Winning may be one thing,getting your money may very well be another.
    Still there is the moral or principle issue and good on ya for going after the ba tards.

    Frank 8)

  • #76924
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    My answer to the thread’s question is “No” but let’s hope 2008 sees some better justice from the Spanish courts than previously seen in 2007 on occasions.
    In particular, breaches of contract have to be taken SERIOUSLY by the courts and not cast aside as an insignificant matter.
    The tarnish of injustice from certain judges will end up doing as much damage to Spain’s reputation as the corruption itself if they carry on as they have been.

    Wishing everyone on SPI Χρόνια πολλά (‘Hronia Polar’…..Happy New Year) from a chilly 🙁 Greece.

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