Does any other market exhibit this madness!

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This topic contains 98 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of logan logan 4 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #57112
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    These two advertisements are for properties in my complex, both are identical to my apartment (3 bed).

    The first is offered at 370,800 Euros.
    The second is offered at 115,00 Euros.

    For reference a 3 bed property was being offered by the developer off plan at 118,000 Euros in 2001.
    (118,000 Euros in 2001 is around 160,000 Euros in real terms today)

    Now it might be the case that the more expensive property has a historical price from the peak of the boom, but the advert date seems to indicate otherwise.

    I am interested if the cheaper property has sold. I am currently staying in my apartment for 4 months on an extended holiday and when I arrived at the start of the summer I was told by another resident friend that they knew someone that was selling their 3 bed property in the complex for 100,000 Euros. I didn’t quite believe them as the price seemed simply too low. I suspect that the 115,000 Euro property is indeed this property with a 15,000 agents fee added on.

    For me these two properties highlight the completely broken and dis-functional market. It’s also alarming to see my apartment which is a high quality build and front-line (albeit in Almeria) at a price in absolute terms from about 2001 and taking inflation into account places it probably somewhere at a price of 15~20 years ago.

    http://www.ventadepisos.com/venta_piso_almerimar/piso-obra-nueva-con-piscina-y-2-banos_116146.html

    http://www.ventadepisos.com/venta_piso_almerimar/piso-soleado-con-jardin-playas-de-la-ensenada-almerimar_1469368.html

  • #112897
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    I agree in some cases properties are being offered for sale at prices lower than 10/12 years ago.
    This is a result of panic amongst these unfortunate vendors.

    On another thread posters are discussing a 4 bed valued at 37500 euro.
    (bank repossession)

    “For me these two properties highlight the completely broken and dis-functional market”

    Exactly

    Another example here http://www.solvia.es/Apartamento-en-Mijas-2-dormitorios/6943_80/vivienda_8168.html

  • #112924
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    115k euros for that apartment is far too much.

  • #112927
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    115k euros for that apartment is far too much.

    and your point is

    Do you know it have you been there.

    I dont think so

    Another poster with an agenda

  • #112931
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    But that is the point. Spanish property is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.

    A 3 bedroom villa could be worth 300k to the seller but only 80k to a buyer?

    The banks overvalued everything to excessive levels that no one really knows the true value of anything anymore as there is so much on the market or being sold via the banks.

  • #112934
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    I agree in some cases properties are being offered for sale at prices lower than 10/12 years ago.
    This is a result of panic amongst these unfortunate vendors.

    On another thread posters are discussing a 4 bed valued at 37500 euro.
    (bank repossession)

    “For me these two properties highlight the completely broken and dis-functional market”

    Exactly

    Another example here http://www.solvia.es/Apartamento-en-Mijas-2-dormitorios/6943_80/vivienda_8168.html

    I have no idea about what prices were in Spain 12 years ago, but let me give you an example in Bucharest,Romania for the prices of a 1 bedroom apt. in a central position:

    2003: price 14K Euros
    2008 (after 100% mortgages were introduced): price 120K Euros (yes, 9 times increase in 4 years)
    2012: price 35K Euros (yes, about 1/4 of the 2008 price). Nobody shows any interest.

    So the 4 bed valued at 37500 euro in Denia might look like a bargain as compared to the 2007 prices, but what about 1999 prices? I would guess such apartment costed in pesetas about 15K Euros or less.

  • #112935
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve said it before somewhere on here.

    Spanish neighbours in our block paid around 20k for their flats in 2000.

    We paid 95k in 2005 and dodgy remortgage in 2006 for 120k with the bank valuing the place at 183k

    Others in 2006/2007 bought for 150k

    Now the repos are 20k again.

  • #112939
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @itsme wrote:

    I’ve said it before somewhere on here.

    Spanish neighbours in our block paid around 20k for their flats in 2000.

    We paid 95k in 2005 and dodgy remortgage in 2006 for 120k with the bank valuing the place at 183k

    Others in 2006/2007 bought for 150k

    Now the repos are 20k again.

    I would be very happy to read about more such examples.

    Itsme, how much are the yearly expenses in your building? Thank you.

  • #112943
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ours is a 30 year old building in a small town. There are 20 flats and the PP office downstairs. We pay 21 euros per month community fees which includes the lift, insurance and cleaning.

    The trouble with our block, and many other older blocks I guess, is that our upstairs and downstairs neighbours have reformed their homes really nicely but other flats are needing new kitchens/bathrooms and therefore don’t look as good alongside new builds. That’s where local information helps. Our building is not all shiny and modern but it’s on a great street. A shiny new building might not be in the best area.

    That is why all of us on here are hopefully helping those new to the Spanish system to be more aware and maybe even rent to get to know an area before buying.

  • #112941
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just to add to this thread..

    My niece has just moved out of her family home and now rents a property in El Ejido. She has got a good deal on a brand new 1 bed apartment with garage. She is paying 275 Euros a month.

    My Spanish mortgage has just been revalued at 1.77%

    So take some of these flats/apartments that can be found for 40k Euros or less and there are quite a few in El Ejido which are 3 bedrooms or more and you would pay an monthly interest of 59 Euros !!!! (40,000 * 1.77% / 12)

    So you can rent it for 300 ~ 400 Euros from a Landlord or buy it for 59 Euros a month, of course you have to still make a capital payment, but if you had an interest only mortgage you would in effect be renting for indeed 59 Euros.

    My apartment, or similar ones in the complex rent out to Spanish families for around 1200 Euros a month in July/August. Long term rentals of the apartments are around 500 ~ 600 Euros a month.

    Even if peterhun wants to believe that 100k Euros is too much for my front line apartment, the maths say that valued at such a price a 3 bed property could be bought with an interest only mortgage (rent) of 150 Euros @ 1.77% Even doubling the interest rate to 4% then that’s 330 Euros a months.

    So do we believe that Spanish rents will fall to the order of 60~70 Euros a month for 3 bed flats in town centres, or 150 Euros for 3 bed front line properties. Most people probably don’t think rents will fall to these values. But property prices are already at these levels in terms of interest costs.

    Anyway I just posted because ultimately rent and buying are always going to be broadly similar in costs, depending on the interest rate of the day. But at the moment there is a huge difference, with buying a property being vastly cheaper.

  • #112945
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    jp1 I’m not disagreeing with you but you are also missing the fact that the interest levels are held unaturally low because how the financial system is backed at the moment.

    I wouldn’t be to afraid to buy an apartment to live long term in at the moment but I think it will become even cheaper.

  • #112947
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Would anyone seriously consider buying in El Ejido ๐Ÿ˜ฏ It has a reputation as a place with lots of social problems.

  • #112955
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Would anyone seriously consider buying in El Ejido ๐Ÿ˜ฏ It has a reputation as a place with lots of social problems.

    For the type of people that frequent this site absolutely not. However, if you are Spanish and a local whom perhaps has family or a job in the town then yes.

    @Ardun wrote:

    jp1 I’m not disagreeing with you but you are also missing the fact that the interest levels are held unaturally low because how the financial system is backed at the moment.

    I didn’t miss that point, but the corollary to high interest rates is a booming economy will full employment, factors that would see a buoyant housing market with in all probably rising property prices.

  • #112956
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Bad property bank (SARBE) is soon to arrive with all the consequences for market values. Vendors are indeed panicking especially banks who are trying to sell at almost any price.

    http://www.murciatoday.com/spanish-bad-property-bank-sareb-to-be-constituted-on-16th-november_13436-a.html

    Nobody with any sense should invest in a dysfunctional market. These prices are low for very good reasons. That is all they are worth.

  • #112957
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    The Director General of the FROB (Que?) says the aim is to ‘prevent the market from being flooded with bargain basement properties’ and that SAREB will be set up for 15 years, that’s a hell of a long time for disposal of properties, is he being optimistic when he says ‘we have no intention of sinking the market’? ๐Ÿ™„

    I would imagine the Bad Bank could do just what he hopes it wouldn’t do above.

    Will it be hard pressed Spaniards who buy this huge surplus up in order to have a roof over their heads, they hardly look appealing as sound investments? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #112958
    Profile photo of Igurisu
    Igurisu
    Participant

    It seems that the theory behind SAREB is that all the “bad” properties will go under one umbrella. In this case then theoretically they will own all the bottom end of the market and so can control the prices preventing a continued downward spiral.

    Theory is good, but that would only be a snapshot in time when the bank is established and the properties passed to it. I think the strategy could only work if all future “bad” properties were also passed to it for the next 2 or 3 years in order for them to keep control.

    If it’s a one off hit then in six months there will a new tranche of low cost properties on the market that will undercut the SAREB portfolio forcing them to reduce prices or sit on them for a longer term.

    Does anybody know if SAREB is just a snapshot as of now or if there are plans to continue expanding the portfolio?

  • #112961
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    The Director General of the FROB (Que?) says the aim is to ‘prevent the market from being flooded with bargain basement properties’ and that SAREB will be set up for 15 years, that’s a hell of a long time for disposal of properties, is he being optimistic when he says ‘we have no intention of sinking the market’? ๐Ÿ™„

    ..

    Translation:

    Yes we can’t let the plebs have access to cheap property. So instead we’ll use their taxes to buy the cheap property off the banks and keep them off the market for 15 years. During which time I’m hoping things will recover so we can get my developer mates to buy the cheap properties instead, and then sell them on to the plebs at over inflated prices. That way Spain can return to the “glory years” of 2002 to 2006 with everybody’s last centimo being spent on keeping a roof over their heads.

  • #112963
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
  • #112964
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Chopera, me being a new naive buyer, I really love your explanation and I fully believe it ๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ˜‰

    It seems to me that if they take this lot of Bank books they can pretend later that there are few properties still for sale in Spain and can revert to the ‘bad ol days’ of hyping Spanish properties again to truly naive purchasers and so the old merry go round starts spinning again ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #112970
    Profile photo of DrRobert
    DrRobert
    Participant

    What we seem to be saying here is that in Spain they make it up as they go along!

  • #112974
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    So now you ALL believe the massive price reductions exist (50 to 70%)

    It seems you now ALL believe they are selling.

    They are selling however in place of nearly everything else as the market is still a FRACTION of what it was.

    Will this solve Spain’s (the country and the EU) problems It might

    But at the expense of most of the ordinary home owners of ANY nationality.

    I am not in any way saying it will, but just imagine how you would feel if this was happening to the market where YOU live.

    I cant see the funny side of this

  • #112975
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Just found this on another forum

    I have been reading this thread with interest and as we have just sold our property using an agent, thought I would add my experience. We bought our apartment in 2004 for 91,340 euros, plus 1000 euros for fitted wardrobes to be included in the build and air con etc.

    We firstly tried advertising our apartment with an internet sales web page – they just advertise it for a fee and refer on interested parties. This was a complete waste of time and cost 300 euros, all we got was scam emails. Following on from this after 2 yrs of nothing we decided to go with an agent that marketed lots of properties in Torrevieja but the agent lived locally to our apartment so was able to advise us (we thought) and the most appropriate price to pitch our apartment at, plusses and minuses involved etc. of the marketing. He told us his company charged 3000 euros plus IVA if the property was sold under 100,000 euros which included us. As we were marketing it at 59,950 this seemed expensive but affordable. After 18 months he suggested we reduce our price to a similar price to other apartments being sold on our development, so we reduced it to 49,950 and a few months later he said he had an interested party. As I said he came back with an interested party but not a buyer he had managed to obtain but through another local estate agent. Also I might add I saw our apartment being offered for 3 or 4 different prices with different agents on Kyero.com even though we had not been asked if they could do this. The offer made he said would leave us with 37,000 euros (at this stage he would not say what the offer price was), then he dropped the bombshell that this 37,000 was because we would have to pay two agents’ fees. We refused and on his pushing us for our final selling price, we told him that we wanted to walk away with 40,000 AFTER agent’s fees and that we would only pay one fee. He was reluctant to pressure the buyer in case we lost him but we were past the point of caring after having reduced the price to such a low level and told him so. Anyway the buyer pushed up his price (as we later were told by the agent) to 43,000 from which the agent took his fee – 3000 plus 450 IVA !

    When we took into account solicitor fees (well gestoria as we got a cheaper quote than from our solicitor who carried out the purchase), Plusvalia, Agent’s fees, 3% retention, 100 euros retention for utility bills and another 150 euros the buyer’s solicitor insisted upon for SUMA even though we had a bank statement clearing stating it had been paid by direct debit 5 weeks ago, and then paying in the cheque to the bank, another 109 euros bank charge for depositing the cheque and we will have to pay another 51 euros to bring the cash home.

    We have walked away with the grand sum of ยฃ27,200 !!!!! When you consider we have ended up with about 40% of what we paid for the apartment, how can any agent wonder why you question their fees ? The agent ended up with almost 10% of what we sold for and we ended up with 40% of what we bought for.

    We have been stung every step of the way and it has taught us never to purchase anything again in Spain.

    Perhaps now Georgia can understand why people question what they are getting for their money when they are being asked to pay 10% of the sales price when in the UK you pay 2% at most.

    Desperation to sell
    Cant see the FUNNY side of this story either
    Far too many sellers chasing far too few buyers equals this dysfunctional market

  • #112977
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Another example at Duquesa Village, Manilva 93900โ‚ฌ for 142M2 on first floor, 238100โ‚ฌ for 95M2 on ground floor…or have I misread something?

    http://www.idealista.com/inmueble/25199881/

    http://www.idealista.com/inmueble/25009520/

  • #112978
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    This last post made by GJ illustrates quite well the realities of buying property in Spain. I do question why on earth the owner would be bothered to sell for such low returns which he could have calculated had they spent sufficient time and seeking cost commitments from those involved.

    If you are so casual about business and allow others to lead you, losing money is an inevitable consequence. Property is not an emotional process it’s just business.

  • #112979
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    There’s nothing ‘FUNNY’ about losing money in a property wherever it is but Spanish property was massively overpriced by agents and developers in the ‘boom’ and naive purchasers were duped by unscrupulous marketeers into overpaying.

    Importantly, there was nothing ‘FUNNY’ when plane loads of Brits arrived at said agents along the coast on Inspection Flights, put up in hotels for 3 days and ended up buying 2, 3 or more properties when they came to see just one, duped into buying multiples with the words ringing in their ears ‘you can flip this when it’s built’, ‘we will resell for you’, and the famous quote ‘You cannot lose’ ๐Ÿ˜ก

    It wasn’t funny when so many wide boys and girls having made their weekly targets from naive Brits, then all went off to Banus swilling champagne and laughing at how easy it was and saying ‘it was like taking candy off a baby’ however many of these babies were in fact pensioners who ended up losing their life savings. ๐Ÿ˜ก

    So Garry James, you who worked as an agent on the Coast also know what it was like from the agents’ perspective because you said ‘how I miss those exciting times’ ๐Ÿ˜ก Not funny either when you lose your job is it ๐Ÿ™„

  • #112980
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    logan wrote:
    This last post made by GJ illustrates quite well the realities of buying property in Spain. I do question why on earth the owner would be bothered to sell for such low returns which he could have calculated had they spent sufficient time and seeking cost commitments from those involved.

    If you are so casual about business and allow others to lead you, losing money is an inevitable consequence. Property is not an emotional process it’s just business.

    They probably sold the Torrevieja apartment because they did not want to pay the 2000 euros/year to go to a place they did not like…

    If I decide to buy in Spain, I would only do it in a place I could return for 20 years in a row and still like it.

  • #112981
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @ralita wrote:

    If I decide to buy in Spain, I would only do it in a place I could return for 20 years in a row and still like it.

    The trouble with that ralita is in Spain nowhere stays the same for long, especially in resort-ville. What may seem charming now in a few short years can become a crime and vandal infested ghetto. ๐Ÿ™

  • #112982
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    logan wrote:
    ralita wrote:
    If I decide to buy in Spain, I would only do it in a place I could return for 20 years in a row and still like it.

    The trouble with that ralita is in Spain nowhere stays the same for long, especially in resort-ville. What may seem charming now in a few short years can become a crime and vandal infested ghetto. ๐Ÿ™

    I agree. Prices seem to be getting almost OK now, but everyone I get a bit excited, I remember the huge ownership cost. If I could move to Spain (with a job), it would be another story…

    The purchase price is just a beginning…

  • #112983
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    There’s nothing ‘FUNNY’ about losing money in a property wherever it is but Spanish property was massively overpriced by agents and developers in the ‘boom’ and naive purchasers were duped by unscrupulous marketeers into overpaying.

    Importantly, there was nothing ‘FUNNY’ when plane loads of Brits arrived at said agents along the coast on Inspection Flights, put up in hotels for 3 days and ended up buying 2, 3 or more properties when they came to see just one, duped into buying multiples with the words ringing in their ears ‘you can flip this when it’s built’, ‘we will resell for you’, and the famous quote ‘You cannot lose’ ๐Ÿ˜ก

    It wasn’t funny when so many wide boys and girls having made their weekly

    targets from naive Brits, then all went off to Banus swilling champagne and laughing at how easy it was and saying ‘it was like taking candy off a baby’ however many of these babies were in fact pensioners who ended up losing their life savings. ๐Ÿ˜ก

    So Garry James, you who worked as an agent on the Coast also know what it was like from the agents’ perspective because you said ‘how I miss those exciting times’ ๐Ÿ˜ก Not funny either when you lose your job is it ๐Ÿ™„

    Its all the agents fault AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    YAWN YAWN

  • #112984
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @logan wrote:

    @ralita wrote:
    If I decide to buy in Spain, I would only do it in a place I could return for 20 years in a row and still like it.

    The trouble with that ralita is in Spain nowhere stays the same for long, especially in resort-ville. What may seem charming now in a few short years can become a crime and vandal infested ghetto. ๐Ÿ™

    So true. We were there 15 years (although we did move 4 times). There were so many changes in that time. We were fortunate with our last house, still the same views as 10 years ago and a nice residential area. However, we have known a few people whose views have been blighted over the years. One couple had a lovely home with wonderful sea views. A few years after buying they were facing a 5 floor apartment block and the house was in the shade most of the time. Ok I know it can happen anywhere but who can say what changes there could be in 20 yrs. Another lost their home when the AP7 toll road was constructed. They received the valor castral price for compensation, market value 765,000…they received 315,000 ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

    Since 2000 Spain is not the place we knew and loved. Even if the place you buy is wonderful, people change in 20 years too. Only buy if you can get an exit in a reasonable timescale. No one knows a property until they have lived in it for a year or two.

  • #112985
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Resort urbanisations are only as good as the number of owners who pay their community fees correctly. I understand at the moment that is becoming a major problem all across Spain. Maintenance is being dropped for lack of funding, gardening and other issues shelved, utility bills and taxes left unpaid, etc.

    Communities are heading for disaster as the value of the owners investment declines and owners walk away through either financial pressures or lack of interest. It takes only a short time to see the visible results and it’s deeply depressing.

    Never buy in a community that’s heading in that direction. Check the accounts and the financial health of it first. Talk to the resort President ask he/she how many debtors they have. The property may seem cheap but in the long run you may end up with a huge financial burden in the future.

  • #112986
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @gj wrote:

    So now you ALL believe the massive price reductions exist (50 to 70%)

    It seems you now ALL believe they are selling.

    I don’t believe it. Massive reductions on la-la land prices that’s all. Some are selling of course but not in any great number. There are always some selling, even in Greece but lets not kid ourselves there is a scramble to buy these “cheap” ๐Ÿ™„ properties.

  • #112987
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @Clifford Chambers wrote:

    Another example at Duquesa Village, Manilva 93900โ‚ฌ for 142M2 on first floor, 238100โ‚ฌ for 95M2 on ground floor…or have I misread something?

    http://www.idealista.com/inmueble/25199881/

    http://www.idealista.com/in ueble/25009520/

    No you have not misread, I would guess the seller of the property at 93900โ‚ฌ
    would have paid over 200000โ‚ฌ for it.

  • #112990
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @gj wrote:
    So now you ALL believe the massive price reductions exist (50 to 70%)

    It seems you now ALL believe they are selling.

    I don’t believe it. Massive reductions on la-la land prices that’s all. Some are selling of course but not in any great number. There are always some selling, even in Greece but lets not kid ourselves there is a scramble to buy these “cheap” ๐Ÿ™„ properties.

    So what will it take for you to believe the vultures are starting to feed ? Not a feeding frenzy yet. Those with money are looking interested.

  • #112991
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Resort urbanisations are only as good as the number of owners who pay their community fees correctly. I understand at the moment that is becoming a major problem all across Spain. Maintenance is being dropped for lack of funding, gardening and other issues shelved, utility bills and taxes left unpaid, etc.

    Communities are heading for disaster as the value of the owners investment declines and owners walk away through either financial pressures or lack of interest. It takes only a short time to see the visible results and it’s deeply depressing.

    Never buy in a community that’s heading in that direction. Check the accounts and the financial health of it first. Talk to the resort President ask he/she how many debtors they have. The property may seem cheap but in the long run you may end up with a huge financial burden in the future.

    I totally agree with this

  • #113002
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    115k euros for that apartment is far too much.

    and your point is

    Do you know it have you been there.

    I dont think so

    Another poster with an agenda

    My agenda is that I have no interest in buying or selling in Spain. I see it as a millstone, tying you to Spanish tax demands and costs that will far outweigh any benefit of living there, never mind investing.

    If you cannot find me an average job paying 40K euro’s per year in a reasonable commuting distance or a reliable tenant willing to pay 7000 euro’s per year rent, I will say its not worth that money.

  • #113005
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @gj wrote:
    @peterhun wrote:
    115k euros for that apartment is far too much.

    and your point is

    Do you know it have you been there.

    I dont think so

    Another poster with an agenda

    My agenda is that I have no interest in buying or selling in Spain. I see it as a millstone, tying you to Spanish tax demands and costs that will far outweigh any benefit of living there, never mind investing.

    If you cannot find me an average job paying 40K euro’s per year in a reasonable commuting distance or a reliable tenant willing to pay 7000 euro’s per year rent, I will say its not worth that money.

    In a falling market, for a โ‚ฌ115k flat you need a tenant paying twice that for it to make sense.

  • #113007
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Peterhun wrote

    My agenda is that I have no interest in buying or selling in Spain. I see it as a millstone, tying you to Spanish tax demands and costs that will far outweigh any benefit of living there, never mind investing.

    So stop posting on a Spanish property forum that you have no interest in

    Just keep to your “up yourself ” financial posts regarding the euro.

  • #113015
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    One must be careful, I have been looking at some of the bank sites full of so called bargains with several% discounts and some of them are not bargains at all, I think they are trying to create a feeling of bargain fire sales that ii is not so, to see how they can get some unaware clients that think that it is now or never!!!!! that they may miss the “train”

  • #113019
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @Jaime wrote:

    One must be careful, I have been looking at some of the bank sites full of so called bargains with several% discounts and some of them are not bargains at all, I think they are trying to create a feeling of bargain fire sales that ii is not so, to see how they can get some unaware clients that think that it is now or never!!!!! that they may miss the “train”

    They are not that clever they are just taking 75% off the original price. If that price was far too high in the first place then the reduced price will not be a bargain.

    SIMPLES!!!!

    Another conspiracy theory “oh dear”

    They just want the properties off their books and there are far too many of them to be playing games.
    Or are you in the know and an employee of Sabadell inmobilaria.

  • #113020
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    In a falling market, for a โ‚ฌ115k flat you need a tenant paying twice that for it to make sense.

    That comment is far too clever for my inadequate brain. Where did the tenant come from ? ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #113021
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    That comment is far too clever for my inadequate brain.

    Probably because constantly banging your head damages it. ๐Ÿ™‚

    In normal times an annual net 5% return on capital investment from a tenant is acceptable. Also in normal times a minimum capital appreciation of 5% was usual. These figures made property a worthwhile long term investment.

    In today’s dysfunctional market these norms no longer apply. That is one more reason why property is currently junk investment grade.

  • #113024
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    According to this site, rental yields are starting to recover in Spain, mainly because of the fall in house prices http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2012/10/14/spanish-rental-yields-on-the-rise/
    However buying a property for capital gain seems to me to be unlikely in the short-term (although who knows where all this QE and printing will lead to). Even here in London and despite the hype I know someone who has taken her property off the market (in desirable Islington) because there are no buyers, and she’s renting it out instead.

  • #113026
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    In a falling market, for a โ‚ฌ115k flat you need a tenant paying twice that for it to make sense.

    That comment is far too clever for my inadequate brain. Where did the tenant come from ? ๐Ÿ˜†

    it came from further up the thread – PeterHun’s comment to be precise:

    My agenda is that I have no interest in buying or selling in Spain. I see it as a millstone, tying you to Spanish tax demands and costs that will far outweigh any benefit of living there, never mind investing.

    If you cannot find me an average job paying 40K euro’s per year in a reasonable commuting distance or a reliable tenant willing to pay 7000 euro’s per year rent, I will say its not worth that money.

    In the UK before the BTL bubble and interest rates started being messed around with, the rule of thumb for property investors was BTL only made sense with a 12% yield. This was back in the days of 6 or 7 % base rates, so you could shave off a couple of % these days, so say 10% makes sense in the UK. However in Spain the landlord has to assume additional costs, and the rental laws in Spain make it favourable for the tenant as well. So I’d stick to 12% being the minimum acceptable BTL yield for Spain. So if you pay โ‚ฌ115 for a flat then for a 12% yield you need a tenant paying โ‚ฌ13,800/year – almost twice the โ‚ฌ7000/year PeterHun mentioned. Make sense now?

  • #113028
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:

    According to this site, rental yields are starting to recover in Spain, mainly because of the fall in house prices http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2012/10/14/spanish-rental-yields-on-the-rise/
    However buying a property for capital gain seems to me to be unlikely in the short-term (although who knows where all this QE and printing will lead to). Even here in London and despite the hype I know someone who has taken her property off the market (in desirable Islington) because there are no buyers, and she’s renting it out instead.

    Marks piece in that link contradicts this information:-
    http://www.enalquiler.com/precios/precio-alquiler-vivienda-espana_31-0-0-0.html
    At best rental yields in Spain are flat lining and falling in certain regions. Dysfunctional market yes. Dysfunctional journalism as well.

  • #113029
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:
    According to this site, rental yields are starting to recover in Spain, mainly because of the fall in house prices http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2012/10/14/spanish-rental-yields-on-the-rise/
    However buying a property for capital gain seems to me to be unlikely in the short-term (although who knows where all this QE and printing will lead to). Even here in London and despite the hype I know someone who has taken her property off the market (in desirable Islington) because there are no buyers, and she’s renting it out instead.

    Marks piece in that link contradicts this information:-
    http://www.enalquiler.com/precios/precio-alquiler-vivienda-espana_31-0-0-0.html
    At best rental yields in Spain are flat lining and falling in certain regions. Dysfunctional market yes. Dysfunctional journalism as well.

    I think that article talks about rental prices flat lining rather than rental yields. If the price of property is going down and rents are remaining the same then the yields (which are usually expressed as the annual gross rental income as a percentage of house price) will be increasing.

    I’d expect yields to be increasing now because people have to live somewhere, so if nobody is buying houses they must be renting, so I’d expect the greater demand for rental accommodation would place a bit of upward pressure on rental prices.

  • #113031
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Their are thousands of unlet properties on the Costas…they can’t rent them at any price. Like winning the lottery getting a tenant, there just aren’t any punters.

    Stevie where did you pull that from that London houses aren’t selling…they are selling like hot cakes in the South east…I should know, sold one the first week on the market. Finding one is a problem, either being outbidded or not moving fast enough.

  • #113032
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Their are thousands of unlet properties on the Costas…they can’t rent them at any price. Like winning the lottery getting a tenant, there just aren’t any punters.

    Stevie where did you pull that from that London houses aren’t selling…they are selling like hot cakes in the South east…I should know, sold one the first week on the market. Finding one is a problem, either being outbidded or not moving fast enough.

    Where did I pull that?
    Simple – my partner’s sister. She’s been trying to sell her place all year to go back to Istanbul (believe it or not she sees more opportunity there than in London). Been unable to do so, so is reverting to renting it out, as rental demand is still good, and she may try again to sell in a year’s time if demand recovers. A bit surprising as Islington is often an area where city types look to live, but I understand there have been redundancies in the City this year.

  • #113033
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @chopera wrote:

    I think that article talks about rental prices flat lining rather than rental yields. If the price of property is going down and rents are remaining the same then the yields (which are usually expressed as the annual gross rental income as a percentage of house price) will be increasing.

    I’d expect yields to be increasing now because people have to live somewhere, so if nobody is buying houses they must be renting, so I’d expect the greater demand for rental accommodation would place a bit of upward pressure on rental prices.

    Yup I take your point Chopera but these statistics mean very little in the real world. Spanish rental income is very low currently and with the over supply all over Spain, I’m sure that situation will not change in the medium term. Madrid is a different case but even there demand must be less than supply given the economic situation.

    I get very cross when I hear/read sellers and jurno’s suggesting to buyers/readers they will be able to cover their costs by renting. It may be possible under certain circumstances but it’s by no means a certainty.

  • #113034
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:

    @katy wrote:
    Their are thousands of unlet properties on the Costas…they can’t rent them at any price. Like winning the lottery getting a tenant, there just aren’t any punters.

    Stevie where did you pull that from that London houses aren’t selling…they are selling like hot cakes in the South east…I should know, sold one the first week on the market. Finding one is a problem, either being outbidded or not moving fast enough.

    Where did I pull that?
    Simple – my partner’s sister. She’s been trying to sell her place all year to go back to Istanbul (believe it or not she sees more opportunity there than in London). Been unable to do so, so is reverting to renting it out, as rental demand is still good, and she may try again to sell in a year’s time if demand recovers. A bit surprising as Islington is often an area where city types look to live, but I understand there have been redundancies in the City this year.

    She must be asking waaay too much ๐Ÿ˜† Probably done her a good turn though…wo would sell in london to buy in istanbul ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.home.co.uk/guides/time_on_market_report.htm?location=london&lastyear=1

  • #113035
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @dbmarcos99 wrote:
    @katy wrote:
    Their are thousands of unlet properties on the Costas…they can’t rent them at any price. Like winning the lottery getting a tenant, there just aren’t any punters.

    Stevie where did you pull that from that London houses aren’t selling…they are selling like hot cakes in the South east…I should know, sold one the first week on the market. Finding one is a problem, either being outbidded or not moving fast enough.

    Where did I pull that?
    Simple – my partner’s sister. She’s been trying to sell her place all year to go back to Istanbul (believe it or not she sees more opportunity there than in London). Been unable to do so, so is reverting to renting it out, as rental demand is still good, and she may try again to sell in a year’s time if demand recovers. A bit surprising as Islington is often an area where city types look to live, but I understand there have been redundancies in the City this year.

    She must be asking waaay too much ๐Ÿ˜† Probably done her a good turn though…wo would sell in london to buy in istanbul ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.home.co.uk/guides/time_on_market_report.htm?location=london&lastyear=1

    You’re exposing your ignorance again. The Turkish economy has been booming again with growth rates of 10% in recent years, with a more modest 4% expected this year – the UK economy is stagnant, and despite the QE and weakness of the pound until recently exports have not risen as hoped. I wouldn’t advise anyone who doesn’t know the country to buy in Turkey though – who knows what may happen with their separatists or volatile neighbours?

    Edit – a recent article by the Economist on Turkey
    http://www.economist.com/node/21552216

  • #113037
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    You are getting rude again calling me ignorant…just because the Turkish economy is doing ok. doesn’t mean it is a good idea to buy there. Anyone who sells in London to buy there wants certifying ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #113038
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    I really can’t see London prices (talking below the multi-million sector) increasing, and many sources are predicting a correction as prices are too high. But it’s just an opinion, same as buying in Istanbul would be an opinion – it so happens that my better half’s sister already has a property there. Who knows what can happen in the future? Turkey is part of the MIST group (Mexico, Indonesia, South Korea and Turkey) who are tipped to overhaul the BRICS as the best place to invest. We do know someone who moved to Turkey to teach English a couple of years back, and has already done well enough to buy their home. We also know quite a few small businessmen in Istanbul via family connections, and they’ve all thrived over the last few years. I personally would be wary of the place (and not just because of proximity to ME war zones), but it doesn’t make the place an economic disaster – in fact, it’s had quite decent growth over recent years. The UK (or Spain) hasn’t.

    http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-09/move-over-brics-dot-here-come-the-mists

  • #113039
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @chopera wrote:
    I think that article talks about rental prices flat lining rather than rental yields. If the price of property is going down and rents are remaining the same then the yields (which are usually expressed as the annual gross rental income as a percentage of house price) will be increasing.

    I’d expect yields to be increasing now because people have to live somewhere, so if nobody is buying houses they must be renting, so I’d expect the greater demand for rental accommodation would place a bit of upward pressure on rental prices.

    Yup I take your point Chopera but these statistics mean very little in the real world. Spanish rental income is very low currently and with the over supply all over Spain, I’m sure that situation will not change in the medium term. Madrid is a different case but even there demand must be less than supply given the economic situation.

    I get very cross when I hear/read sellers and jurno’s suggesting to buyers/readers they will be able to cover their costs by renting. It may be possible under certain circumstances but it’s by no means a certainty.

    Yes I agree, I don’t think BTL in Spain is an option yet. As I mentioned in another thread, I think you need 12% yield for it to make sense (i.e. cover costs, risks, and then make a reasonable income on top). So if I’m investing say โ‚ฌ100k in property in a falling market then I’d want to rent it out for โ‚ฌ1000/month. Those opportunities don’t exist yet – well in Madrid they don’t. We still need another 30% drop in prices!

  • #113041
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I have looked at investment in Turkey in the past. I spent many weeks there in the coastal resorts. The economy was a basket case then so current growth needs to be measured against very low levels the country traditional had.

    Property generally in resort terms is poorly built, low quality materials and designed with planning hap hazard at best. The tourist traffic is increasing but being an Islamic country, albeit moderate does hold it back. Then there is the constant earthquake risk, natural disasters and some terrorist activity. Political stability also is a question with the military always threatening.

    Istanbul is a vibrant interesting place, wonderful friendly people but I would not buy property there for so many reasons.

    The talk then was Turkey will soon be in the EU, so invest now before it becomes the new property hot spot. Well that didn’t quite happen did it and nor is it likely to in the near future, if ever.

  • #113042
    Profile photo of GarySFBCN
    GarySFBCN
    Participant

    The talk then was Turkey will soon be in the EU, so invest now before it becomes the new property hot spot. Well that didn’t quite happen did it and nor is it likely to in the near future, if ever.

    Right you are. The more racist members of the EU would never allow a country that is mostly Islamic to become the second largest (in population) member of the EU, regardless of that country’s economic strength.

    And I see this as a huge lost opportunity on many levels.

  • #113043
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Istanbul is a great city. Why would even the turks want to join this failed project?

  • #113046
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @garysfbcn wrote:

    The talk then was Turkey will soon be in the EU, so invest now before it becomes the new property hot spot. Well that didn’t quite happen did it and nor is it likely to in the near future, if ever.

    Right you are. The more racist members of the EU would never allow a country that is mostly Islamic to become the second largest (in population) member of the EU, regardless of that country’s economic strength.

    And I see this as a huge lost opportunity on many levels.

    Nothing to do with racism, more due to it’s democratic systems, human rights record and it’s stance on Cyprus.

    Not sure now but at one time foreigners were only permitted to buy property in certain areas. No free movement either, work permits are needed…should be fun trying to get one ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #113047
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It matters not if an economy is booming such as Turkey’s as a reason to buy property there, other factors come into play not least those mentioned by others on here. It’s a culture most people are unfamiliar with and IMO too near Middle East trouble spots as occurring now.

    Istanbul, fascinating City that it is, but unlike London, it’s not the financial capital of the World which until that changes will always make London more attractive to wealthy incomers, same goes for Paris, Rome, Madrid, New York etc as better bets to buy property for investment as rentals and for capital growth.

    A recent TV programme showed Brits who had bought in Turkey, disaster, and similar property losses as in Spain, but worse still they have to lock up securely when away, but get burgled more often when they are there as criminals target credit cards, passports, cash, jewellery which they know are with the occupants. Even Spain is probably a safer bet than Turkey and Bulgaria for property purchases. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #113051
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Agree, I would rather buy 2 in Spain than one in Turkey. :mrgreen:

  • #113053
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I can provide and example of Turkish culture. One day whilst I was in the far south of the country a Turkish business associate invited me to dinner at his house. I was told it was a great honour but the invitation would not extend to my wife who happened to be with me.

    Dinner was served to the two of us by several female members of his family who did not join us at the feast. It was wonderful food. Occasionally the women would enter the room when my friend clapped his hands with different dishes and they mopped my hands and brow with warm towels as we sat crossed legged on large cushion placed on the floor.

    My friend was very friendly and congenial . I asked why his wife and daughters would not join us. Wrong thing to say. ๐Ÿ™ He was shocked I would even ask such a question and I have regretted it ever since.

    However the experience convinced me that Turkey had a long way to travel before in could ever become an enlightened society and one I would be comfortable being in. I can accept cultural difference easily but not the suppression of women.

  • #113058
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    No wonder my avatar is head banging!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    When have I suggested that its the time to buy for investment and rent long term!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is completely missing my point.

    What I am writing is that the bank repossessions are junking an already damaged market.

    Any one that purchased a property in Spain this millenium is in the equivalent of negative equity by up to 75%

    And off you go talking about rental yields etc and falling markets.

    Many don’t believe these price reductions have happened. I can only suggest that this is because they have no clue how the prices rose from 2001 to 2005

    Spanish Property Insight is a joke Many of you have no Knowledge of the SPANISH property market.

    Just in case you are still missing my point I would NOT buy a property in Spain for investment of ANY KIND.
    I am saying the answer to to title of this thread is NO NO NO ๐Ÿ‘ฟ ๐Ÿ‘ฟ ๐Ÿ‘ฟ ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

  • #113060
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Preview
    Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Woman ruined by Spanish property crash wins compensation
    logan wrote:
    The situation now for former British and other residents who bought in Spain during the boom are miserable. Their options are limited because they cannot sell their properties against drastic institutional sales reduced by 70%. and can only sell to cash buyers. Knock off that figure from your own house and you will see what I mean. Penury. Cash buyers can also obtain a larger margin from banks because the banks are desperate for new cash.

    Add to that the fact that banks are scandalously still offering 100% mortgages on their own properties and creating a situation of impossibility for anyone else to borrow even with a decent deposit and the awful situation looks worse.

    These are the facts of how modern Spain operates. When things go wrong you are on your own and they will hound you the rest of your life. When it goes wrong for them they equally screw everyone else unmercifully.

    If you think that’s harsh, ask any Spaniard effected by it.

    How is it you can get my point on this thread and so blatantly miss it on another

    Or are some of your posts just hot air and bluster.

  • #113061
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I think it’s you who consistently misses the point of others posts GJ.

    Long term renting was suggested by me as the best way to enjoy a holiday home in Spain and a far better alternative to buying a property. Threads on forums are dynamic and subjects change with debate.

    If you look back at all my posting since I joined this forum you will see I have consistently tried to expose the Spanish property market for what it really is. ie: a source of revenue for the Spanish state, corrupt politicians, spiv agents and developers and unscrupulous banks. I do this from a position of long experience.

    There are many alternatives to enjoying Spain and what the country has to offer besides risking capital and individuals personal financial futures. I believe that message is getting to a few but judging by the posters on here it’s only a minority. There are so many powerful forces at work out there punting the other message and will always win in the end.

  • #113062
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    More hot air and bluster

    I said when DID I mention rental not you.

    If you want to read my posts and make exactly the same point on another thread half an hour later be my guest.

    I am sure you are some sort of dodgy politician changing subjects and answering your own questions when cornered.

  • #113063
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    GJWUM, Garry James why the vitriol towards different posters on here, you constantly accuse people of having an ‘agenda’ when they are pointing out the alternatives to buying, I’m not sure if we are agreeing with you on the one hand hand or disagreeing on the other because you’re getting confusing seriously ๐Ÿ™„ If you explain yourself as to what the point is you are making on different topics maybe we can understand you more.

    I think you’ll find that most posters here do in fact sympathise with those people who are in negative equity or have lost their money buying in Spain, and same posters don’t want the same fate to befall others, hence the warnings, and therein lies the suggestion to ‘rent before you buy’ under various topics including this one headed ‘Does any other market exhibit this madness!’

    You will also recall that several of those you attack including me did in fact sympathise with you when you said you’d lost everything. The statement from you that ‘it used to be a fantastic life in the sun for many of us’ was when you worked for an agent and that was when much of the mis-selling was going on, is that why it was so fantastic? Many of those the agents sold to are the same people who’ve lost so much! ๐Ÿ™„

    Garry, I have to ask ‘do you have an agenda?’

    Previously I asked you out of interest who you worked for on the Coast which you declined to answer, you once appeared to be castigating V–a for El Soto selling, so assume it wasn’t them, was it ADH? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #113064
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    GJWUM, Garry James why the vitriol towards different posters on here, you constantly accuse people of having an ‘agenda’ when they are pointing out the alternatives to buying, I’m not sure if we are agreeing with you on the one hand hand or disagreeing on the other because you’re getting confusing seriously ๐Ÿ™„ If you explain yourself as to what the point is you are making on different topics maybe we can understand you more.

    I think you’ll find that most posters here do in fact sympathise with those people who are in negative equity or have lost their money buying in Spain, and same posters don’t want the same fate to befall others, hence the warnings, and therein lies the suggestion to ‘rent before you buy’ under various topics including this one headed ‘Does any other market exhibit this madness!’

    You will also recall that several of those you attack including me did in fact sympathise with you when you said you’d lost everything. The statement from you that ‘it used to be a fantastic life in the sun for many of us’ was when you worked for an agent and that was when much of the mis-selling was going on, is that why it was so fantastic? Many of those the agents sold to are the same people who’ve lost so much! ๐Ÿ™„

    Garry, I have to ask ‘do you have an agenda?’

    Previously I asked you out of interest who you worked for on the Coast which you declined to answer, you once appeared to be castigating V–a for El Soto selling, so assume it wasn’t them, was it ADH? ๐Ÿ™„

    I don’t know why it is so important to you, but I have nothing to hide I worked for Viva for a number of years.

    If you read all my posts ON THIS THREAD you will see consistency in saying the bank reductions were making the market dysfunctional.
    I object to being miss quoted especially when its deliberate to score a point.

    I will always pull posters up when they post things blatantly SILLY especially when not thought through or lacking in knowledge of the market

    I know the Costa del Sol and have personally visited most urbanizations there. I don’t believe there is anyone CURRENTLY posting (not previous posters) have any real knowledge of the property market there.

  • #113065
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    If you read all my posts ON THIS THREAD you will see consistency in saying the bank reductions were making the market dysfunctional.
    I know the Costa del Sol and have personally visited most urbanizations there. I don’t believe there is anyone CURRENTLY posting (not previous posters) have any real knowledge of the property market there.

    I agree with part of the first paragraph but the market was dysfunctional before the banks began trying to sell off properties they repossessed.

    The Costa de Sol is only one region, one market. The market is different from region to region in Spain. This forum is about the market in the whole country. However there is one common thread. That of systemic collapse. Collapse of the financial system collapse of confidence and collapse of property value which IMO will remain for many years to come.

  • #113066
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    @angie wrote:
    GJWUM, Garry James why the vitriol towards different posters on here, you constantly accuse people of having an ‘agenda’ when they are pointing out the alternatives to buying, I’m not sure if we are agreeing with you on the one hand hand or disagreeing on the other because you’re getting confusing seriously ๐Ÿ™„ If you explain yourself as to what the point is you are making on different topics maybe we can understand you more.

    I think you’ll find that most posters here do in fact sympathise with those people who are in negative equity or have lost their money buying in Spain, and same posters don’t want the same fate to befall others, hence the warnings, and therein lies the suggestion to ‘rent before you buy’ under various topics including this one headed ‘Does any other market exhibit this madness!’

    You will also recall that several of those you attack including me did in fact sympathise with you when you said you’d lost everything. The statement from you that ‘it used to be a fantastic life in the sun for many of us’ was when you worked for an agent and that was when much of the mis-selling was going on, is that why it was so fantastic? Many of those the agents sold to are the same people who’ve lost so much! ๐Ÿ™„

    Garry, I have to ask ‘do you have an agenda?’

    Previously I asked you out of interest who you worked for on the Coast which you declined to answer, you once appeared to be castigating V–a for El Soto selling, so assume it wasn’t them, was it ADH? ๐Ÿ™„

    I don’t know why it is so important to you, but I have nothing to hide I worked for Viva for a number of years.

    If you read all my posts ON THIS THREAD you will see consistency in saying the bank reductions were making the market dysfunctional.
    I object to being miss quoted especially when its deliberate to score a point.

    I will always pull posters up when they post things blatantly SILLY especially when not thought through or lacking in knowledge of the market

    I know the Costa del Sol and have personally visited most urbanizations there. I don’t believe there is anyone CURRENTLY posting (not previous posters) have any real knowledge of the property market there.

    Hi Gj,

    what about these prices:

    http://www.solvia.es/Piso-en-Rincon_de_la_Victoria-2-dormitorios/24105_3/vivienda_29692.html

    http://www.solvia.es/Piso-en-Malaga-1-dormitorio/24134_1/vivienda_29766.html

    http://www.solvia.es/Apartamento-en-Estepona-3-dormitorios/25722_38/vivienda_31852.html

    Are they OK?

    Thank you.

  • #113067
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @gj wrote:
    @angie wrote:
    GJWUM, Garry James why the vitriol towards different posters on here, you constantly accuse people of having an ‘agenda’ when they are pointing out the alternatives to buying, I’m not sure if we are agreeing with you on the one hand hand or disagreeing on the other because you’re getting confusing seriously ๐Ÿ™„ If you explain yourself as to what the point is you are making on different topics maybe we can understand you more.

    I think you’ll find that most posters here do in fact sympathise with those people who are in negative equity or have lost their money buying in Spain, and same posters don’t want the same fate to befall others, hence the warnings, and therein lies the suggestion to ‘rent before you buy’ under various topics including this one headed ‘Does any other market exhibit this madness!’

    You will also recall that several of those you attack including me did in fact sympathise with you when you said you’d lost everything. The statement from you that ‘it used to be a fantastic life in the sun for many of us’ was when you worked for an agent and that was when much of the mis-selling was going on, is that why it was so fantastic? Many of those the agents sold to are the same people who’ve lost so much! ๐Ÿ™„

    Garry, I have to ask ‘do you have an agenda?’

    Previously I asked you out of interest who you worked for on the Coast which you declined to answer, you once appeared to be castigating V–a for El Soto selling, so assume it wasn’t them, was it ADH? ๐Ÿ™„

    I don’t know why it is so important to you, but I have nothing to hide I worked for Viva for a number of years.

    If you read all my posts ON THIS THREAD you will see consistency in saying the bank reductions were making the market dysfunctional.
    I object to being miss quoted especially when its deliberate to score a point.

    I will always pull posters up when they post things blatantly SILLY especially when not thought through or lacking in knowledge of the market

    I know the Costa del Sol and have personally visited most urbanizations there. I don’t believe there is anyone CURRENTLY posting (not previous posters) have any real knowledge of the property market there.

    Hi Gj,

    what about these prices:

    http://www.solvia.es/Piso-en-Rincon_de_la_Victoria-2-dormitorios/24105_3/vivienda_29692.html

    http://www.solvia.es/Piso-en-Malaga-1-dormitorio/24134_1/vivienda_29766.html

    http://www.solvia.es/Apartamento-en-Estepona-3-dormitorios/25722_38/vivienda_31852.html

    Are they OK?

    Thank you.

    Sorry I cant say as I have never been to them, however to quote myself

    They are not that clever they are just taking 75% off the original price. If that price was far too high in the first place then the reduced price will not be a bargain.

    SIMPLES!!!!

  • #113068
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    Sorry I cant say as I have never been to them, however to quote myself

    They are not that clever they are just taking 75% off the original price. If that price was far too high in the first place then the reduced price will not be a bargain.

    SIMPLES!!!!

    Among the bank properties, what property on Costa del Sol would you think that it has the best price/quality/location ratio?

  • #113070
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Well Garry thank you for a reasonable post, I can see more clearly where you’re coming from now and like Logan I agree with your 1st para, yes, the Banks are making the market more dysfunctional now giving private vendors more problems as they are going to be undercut. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    As you’ve said you were with V–a once, could you not get a job with them again now they’re expanding and get out of Swansea again? ๐Ÿ˜•

    In the topic about The Olive Press, a ‘comments’ poster by the name of Anna also uses the word you’ve used ‘SIMPLES’ any connection (Spookily similar as not a word normally used by everyone) as she/he was asked if she/he was an agent which was not answered? Anna was the only one bigging up the market in Spain in the ‘comments’ section maybe an agent connection ๐Ÿ™„

  • #113071
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Angie wrote

    In the topic about The Olive Press, a ‘comments’ poster by the name of Anna also uses the word you’ve used ‘SIMPLES’ any connection (Spookily similar as not a word normally used by everyone) as she/he was asked if she/he was an agent which was not answered? Anna was the only one bigging up the market in Spain in the ‘comments’ section maybe an agent connection

    Sorry Ang got it from a meercat!!!!!!!!!!!!! ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #113072
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Thank goodness for that Garry, I was getting worried in case you led a double life ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    Meerkats quite acceptable, SIMPLES ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #113073
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Banks are making the market more dysfunctional now giving private vendors more problems as they are going to be undercut. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    Well, banks should have reduced the prices much earlier and the private vendors would have been forced to do it too. 4 years of stand-off and the conclusion is the same.

  • #113074
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @gj wrote:
    Sorry I cant say as I have never been to them, however to quote myself

    They are not that clever they are just taking 75% off the original price. If that price was far too high in the first place then the reduced price will not be a bargain.

    SIMPLES!!!!

    Among the bank properties, what property on Costa del Sol would you think that it has the best price/quality/location ratio?

    This has got to be one of the largest discounts but I would advise be aware of the community fees as it has many expensive facilities.

    I do like Benahavis especially the restaurants

    http://www.solvia.es/Chalet_adosado-en-Benahavis-2-dormitorios/23829_0/vivienda_29159.html

    This was the blurb from the developer or selling agent prior to the banks price

    http://www.elcasarbenahavis.com/en/index.php?seccion=inicio

  • #113075
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    @gj wrote:
    Sorry I cant say as I have never been to them, however to quote myself

    They are not that clever they are just taking 75% off the original price. If that price was far too high in the first place then the reduced price will not be a bargain.

    SIMPLES!!!!

    Among the bank properties, what property on Costa del Sol would you think that it has the best price/quality/location ratio?

    This has got to be one of the largest discounts but I would advise be aware of the community fees as it has many expensive facilities.

    I do like Benahavis especially the restaurants

    http://www.solvia.es/Chalet_adosado-en-Benahavis-2-dormitorios/23829_0/vivienda_29159.html

    This was the blurb from the developer or selling agent prior to the banks price

    http://www.elcasarbenahavis.com/en/index.php?seccion=inicio

    I agree it is a good price for a 226 m^2 property. in a good area. Probably the community fees are high but I guess it should rent OK .

  • #113076
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @gj wrote:

    If you read all my posts ON THIS THREAD you will see consistency in saying the bank reductions were making the market dysfunctional.
    I know the Costa del Sol and have personally visited most urbanizations there. I don’t believe there is anyone CURRENTLY posting (not previous posters) have any real knowledge of the property market there.

    Logan wrote
    I agree with part of the first paragraph but the market was dysfunctional before the banks began trying to sell off properties they repossessed.

    More hot air try reading your own post again

    Quote
    Their options are limited because they cannot sell their properties against drastic institutional sales reduced by 70%. and can only sell to cash buyers. Knock off that figure from your own house and you will see what I mean. Penury. Cash buyers can also obtain a larger margin from banks because the banks are desperate for new cash.

    Add to that the fact that banks are scandalously still offering 100% mortgages on their own properties and creating a situation of impossibility for anyone else to borrow even with a decent deposit and the awful situation looks worse.

    And tell me what exactly do you think I meant when I wrote this

    What I am writing is that the bank repossessions are junking an already damaged market.

    Keeping digging your hole miss quoting me is one thing but you are arguing against your own posts.
    My elderly mother aged 87 has a memory similar to yours.

  • #113077
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    http://www.solvia.es/Chalet_adosado-en-Benahavis-2-dormitorios/23829_0/vivienda_29159.html

    This was the blurb from the developer or selling agent prior to the banks price

    http://www.elcasarbenahavis.com/en/index.php?seccion=inicio%5B/quote%5D

    I agree it is a good price for a 226 m^2 property. in a good area. Probably the community fees are high but I guess it should rent OK .[/quote]

    I would certainly NOT suggest buying for investment and renting. There are very few clients looking to rent ANYWHERE IN SPAIN

    If you know the area have a good job like an off shore oil worker or can earn a living from the net and want to live in the sun full time then you have little to lose.

    I would not buy as a holiday home unless you don’t mind spending alot of money on holidays and have the friends and family to make use of it.

  • #113078
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    http://www.solvia.es/Chalet_adosado-en-Benahavis-2-dormitorios/23829_0/vivienda_29159.html

    This was the blurb from the developer or selling agent prior to the banks price

    http://www.elcasarbenahavis.com/en/index.php?seccion=inicio
    .

    I would certainly NOT suggest buying for investment and renting. There are very few clients looking to rent ANYWHERE IN SPAIN

    If you know the area have a good job like an off shore oil worker or can earn a living from the net and want to live in the sun full time then you have little to lose.

    I would not buy as a holiday home unless you don’t mind spending alot of money on holidays and have the friends and family to make use of it.

    I would not buy to rent but there is a bit of a dilemma:

    – if the property is in a bloc of flats without garden and pool, the price is lower, the community fees are much lower but the probability to rent the apartment as holiday lettings is almost zero. It is also quite hard to believe than one can enjoy such holiday for 10+ years.

    – if the property has garden, pools, etc. the price is higher and the community fees are much higher but it is much easier to enjoy such holiday for many years in a row…

    I guess the best is to enjoy properties with pool and garden when renting them from somebody else…

  • #113079
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @gj wrote:
    http://www.solvia.es/Chalet_adosado-en-Benahavis-2-dormitorios/23829_0/vivienda_29159.html

    This was the blurb from the developer or selling agent prior to the banks price

    http://www.elcasarbenahavis.com/en/index.php?seccion=inicio
    .

    I would certainly NOT suggest buying for investment and renting. There are very few clients looking to rent ANYWHERE IN SPAIN

    If you know the area have a good job like an off shore oil worker or can earn a living from the net and want to live in the sun full time then you have little to lose.

    I would not buy as a holiday home unless you don’t mind spending alot of money on holidays and have the friends and family to make use of it.

    I would not buy to rent but there is a bit of a paradox:

    – if the property is in a bloc of flats without garden and pool, the price is lower, the community fees are much lower but the probability to rent the apartment as holiday lettings is almost zero. It is also quite hard to believe than one can enjoy such holiday for 10+ years.

    – if the property has garden, pools, etc. the price is higher and the community fees are much higher but it is much easier to enjoy such holiday for many years in a row…

    I guess the best is to enjoy properties with pool and garden when renting them from somebody else…

    Sorry I am totally lost again

    I’m afraid this post is drivel even making allowances for the fact that english is not your FIRST language.

    Once again points scoring seems to be the agenda does it not Angie

  • #113080
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    I guess the best is to enjoy properties with pool and garden when renting them from somebody else…

    Absolutely, excellent logic flosmichael. Private sellers are well and truly stuck in today’s market. Their only option or salvation is renting, sitting tight and waiting for a miracle or hand the property back with all the difficulties that entails.

    Which is good news for many because Spain now has a good renters market, lots of choice and reasonable rents. It was not always so.

  • #113081
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    @gj wrote:
    http://www.solvia.es/Chalet_adosado-en-Benahavis-2-dormitorios/23829_0/vivienda_29159.html

    This was the blurb from the developer or selling agent prior to the banks price

    http://www.elcasarbenahavis.com/en/index.php?seccion=inicio
    .

    I would certainly NOT suggest buying for investment and renting. There are very few clients looking to rent ANYWHERE IN SPAIN

    If you know the area have a good job like an off shore oil worker or can earn a living from the net and want to live in the sun full time then you have little to lose.

    I would not buy as a holiday home unless you don’t mind spending alot of money on holidays and have the friends and family to make use of it.

    I would not buy to rent but there is a bit of a paradox:

    – if the property is in a bloc of flats without garden and pool, the price is lower, the community fees are much lower but the probability to rent the apartment as holiday lettings is almost zero. It is also quite hard to believe than one can enjoy such holiday for 10+ years.

    – if the property has garden, pools, etc. the price is higher and the community fees are much higher but it is much easier to enjoy such holiday for many years in a row…

    I guess the best is to enjoy properties with pool and garden when renting them from somebody else…

    Sorry I am totally lost again

    I’m afraid this post is drivel even making allowances for the fact that english is not your FIRST language.

    Once again points scoring seems to be the agenda does it not Angie

    I am also totally lost.

    So what if English is not my first language?

  • #113082
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    I guess the best is to enjoy properties with pool and garden when renting them from somebody else…

    Absolutely, excellent logic flosmichael. Private sellers are well and truly stuck in today’s market. Their only option or salvation is renting, sitting tight and waiting for a miracle or hand the property back with all the difficulties that entails.

    Which is good news for many because Spain now has a good renters market, lots of choice and reasonable rents. It was not always so.

    But what are the choices for somebody who paid say 100K Euros for a property which now sells for 25K.

    The mortgage is 500 Euros/month and the extra expenses could be 200 Euros/month, for a possible total of 700 Euros/month.

    The rent could not be more than 350 Euro/month leading to a loss of 350 Euros/month…

  • #113083
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Que Manuel I mean GJ? ๐Ÿ˜•

    Are you now suggesting I’m ‘points scoring’ or are you referring elsewhere, cause if you mean me I will start rolling my sleeves up, sharpen my nails and have a scrap ๐Ÿ˜† SIMPLES! ๐Ÿ˜†

    Still not sure why you keep having a go at Logan who I believe makes excellent posts, no need to be rude now ๐Ÿ˜ก

  • #113084
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    The rent could not be more than 350 Euro/month leading to a loss of 350 Euros/month…

    Well the answer is ‘simples’ ( got me at it now.) โ‚ฌ350 a month income reduces the problem by half. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #113085
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Que Manuel I mean GJ? ๐Ÿ˜•

    Are you now suggesting I’m ‘points scoring’ or are you referring elsewhere, cause if you mean me I will start rolling my sleeves up, sharpen my nails and have a scrap ๐Ÿ˜† SIMPLES! ๐Ÿ˜†

    Still not sure why you keep having a go at Logan who I believe makes excellent posts, no need to be rude now ๐Ÿ˜ก

    Im not having a go at you (on this thread) just asking you to justify these IDIOTIC threads from Logan.

    Its such a shame

    Never mind that other idiot

    The trouble is that they believe I am talking up the marrket

    No such thing just pointing out SILLY SILLY arguments and posters that are UP THEMSELVES without any real knowledge SIMPLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Logan Is it not time for your nurse to give you your medication. and as for that other idiot Your not worth any argument.

    ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    I’m laughing because you no NOTHING about Spanish property.

  • #113086
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Stop it now children……

    Back to the post.

    The banks are xxxing up the market because they have a shed load of properties they lent out big time on and now they are going to have to get rid of them or loose their jobs.

    The rest of the world who wants to sell either sells at a quarter of what they paid for their property or else has to sit tight for years.

    Those who still like the idea of Spain should rent first to really get an idea of a place. Get to know the good/bad sides before spending any money. Rent before you buy.

    Those who enjoy Spain should enjoy it on holiday, pay rent to those who can’t sell and everyone could nearly be happy?

    The end.

  • #113087
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    @gj wrote:
    Sorry I cant say as I have never been to them, however to quote myself

    They are not that clever they are just taking 75% off the original price. If that price was far too high in the first place then the reduced price will not be a bargain.

    SIMPLES!!!!

    Among the bank properties, what property on Costa del Sol would you think that it has the best price/quality/location ratio?

    This has got to be one of the largest discounts but I would advise be aware of the community fees as it has many expensive facilities.

    I do like Benahavis especially the restaurants

    http://www.solvia.es/Chalet_adosado-en-Benahavis-2-dormitorios/23829_0/vivienda_29159.html

    This was the blurb from the developer or selling agent prior to the banks price

    http://www.elcasarbenahavis.com/en/index.php?seccion=inicio

    perhaps not so idyllic after all?

    http://www.ripoffreport.com/bed-breakfast/el-casar/el-casar-benahavis-holiday-spo-d7df1.htm

  • #113088
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Have to get ready for a dinner party (Rioja Cran Riservas too for dwinkys) now so look forward to further comments tomorrow, have a good evening everyone, it’s SIMPLES ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #113089
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    perhaps not so idyllic after all?

    http://www.ripoffreport.com/bed-breakfast/el-casar/el-casar-benahavis-holiday-spo-d7df1.htm%5B/quote%5D

    If this is true don’t buy there

    Apart from that your point is

    Did you not lose money on your recent purchase and how much would you have lost if you were trying to sell it now.

  • #113090
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    perhaps not so idyllic after all?

    http://www.ripoffreport.com/bed-breakfast/el-casar/el-casar-benahavis-holiday-spo-d7df1.htm

    If this is true don’t buy there

    Apart from that your point is

    Did you not lose money on your recent purchase and how much would you have lost if you were trying to sell it now.[/quote]

    yes i did lose money selling last year but i was in a hurry , perhaps it could have been worse

    I have spent the whole day looking at a several of the bank repo properties and whilst I agree that certainly they are being marketed at a lot less than a few years ago the problem is that the very cheap sem to very cheap for a reason- run down complexes, in the middle of nowhere, dark gloomy terrible build quality, depressing immediate environment

    when i studied the site for benahavis (el casar) it looked great- nice location, good facilities and lovely aspect etc
    however the link I posted suggests a different picture of a ghost community perhaps not off developer utilities and not an established community

    these properties always look perfect in isolation but the concept of community living can create difficulties unless everyone on an urbanisation is mega wealthy and committed to its maintenance

  • #113091
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    I have come to the conclusion I am arguing with IDIOTS on what is now a totally pointless forum.

    I have stated before that this forum is PAST ITS SELL BY DATE and anyone with any knowledge of Spanish property no longer posts here ( many used to Inez and Hillbilly for example)

    This forum is not inclusive of residents in Spain at all and I will no longer bother to post on here.

    So go on with your self centered point scoring rubbish that means absolutely nothing to more than 99% of the population and I will waste no more time on you. ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜ณ

  • #113093
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Thank god for that. Just cos you worked for Viva you think you know about spanish property ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† I knew people who worked for them who had been electricians, machinists a few weeks before taking the job. They didn’t know the coastal areas let alone the properties. You worked there when a monkey could have sold them.

    Your posts are all over the place, I am not sure if you are saying there are bargains or not…whatever you need to take a chill pill. You are making a fool of yourself (If that’s possible on a forum!!)

  • #113095
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Amen to that Katy. GJ has now totally lost the plot never mind his obscure arguments. ๐Ÿ™

  • #113097
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    So GJ has lost his job and ‘everything’, yet we are the idiots who know nothing about Spanish property?

  • #113102
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Wow, all I did was go away for the evening and GJ has gone ๐Ÿ˜›

    Look, I found out that GJ was Garry James from Swansea and before he went managed to extract from him that he worked for V–a which explains a lot now with reference to some of his posts, I suspected something was afoot.

    Never quite understood him as it seems most of you didn’t either, on the one hand he made sense but then appeared to contradict himself and launch vitriol to others. Then cue the bad luck story which gained some sympathy before relaunching attacks.

    A couple of quotes to remember him:

    9th July ‘I used to sell these properties for an agent’ (V–a) ‘I am sorry to say it’s all over for years to come as it used to be a fantastic life in the sun for many of us’ Was this a reference to big commissions and naive buyers? ๐Ÿ™„

    10th July ‘I am saying Spain is TOAST and I will go away for another 2 years or so (he didn’t) and will remind you all it’s much worse than even pessimists think when i return if this forum is still here then’ ๐Ÿ™„

    He didn’t even like this forum which has helped so many ๐Ÿ™„

    So back to normal folks with healthy debate and warnings to others ๐Ÿ˜›

  • #113103
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    None of the (albeit few) agents I have met on the costas have had any background/training in being an agent. Usually you chat to them and they tell you what they used to do before moving over to Spain, and it wasn’t estate agency. And to be honest, I can’t see why a decent UK estate agent (who would have built up a good business) would want to move from a market that is regulated and generally rewards decent service to a market that is unregulated and generally rewards dishonesty (well right now it doesn’t reward anybody).

    If I wanted, tomorrow I could become an estate agent in Spain – all I need to do is scrape all the properties from the Idealista/Fotocasa/Rightmove websites, place them on my own website and then re-advertise them on Idealista/Fotocasa/Rightmove with my logo/website link next to them. It would take me a few days to do, and my only costs would be website hosting fees and payments to Idealista/Fotocasa/Rightmove, etc. And that, quite frankly, is what they all do. Which is why you end up with the same properties being adevrtised with several different agents, and is why sellers suddenly find they have to pay two sets of agents fees (one for the agent they contracted to sell the property, and one for the agent who re-advertised the property on their website and got contacted by the potential buyer).

    The only issue is getting hold of the keys if someone wants to view the property – so if you do get a potential buyer you have to go to the agent the seller thinks is selling the property (the one with the keys) and come to some financial agreement with them, so you can show the potential buyer around. If the contracted agent refuses then you tell the potential buyer that the property has been sold, and would they like to view another one instead. Which is great because it gives the impression people are buying properties when they aren’t, and is why half the time you enquire about properties from an agent they’ll come back to you, telling you it’s sold, even though you’ll see it still being advertised 6 months later.

  • #113105
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Yes that’s a good description Chopera of how they operate and if the market ever begins to show any life, operators like GJ will jump on the first plane and return. Nothing will change to regulate the market. The decent long established agents (there are actually a small number) are desperate for some form regulation to control the cowboys.

    What complicates any form of regulation and control in Spain is the system of autonomous government. Regions make their own laws and rules which in general terms are very little in the property and construction business. The reason is they don’t want to kill off the cash cow.

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