Dissidents in your Community of Owners :) !

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of katy katy 9 years, 12 months ago.

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  • #52465
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    Before the absence of much activity and participation this weekend in the forum I decided to start a post myself ( never before) .I am at the moment inmersed in the translation of many aspects of the Law of Horizontal Property. Once it is finished I will post it in here but… in the meantime, if any of you have any questions regarding this law and its dinamics in reality, please do not hesitate to contact me if needed.

    By expample, as an apetizer or ” tapa”: Did you know that a sufficient quorum can hold a Meeting of Owners and take valid and legal decissions without the convoking of the President? For those of you… disidents of the governing bodies of your communities!! 🙂

    Have a nice Sunday.

    Maria

  • #67495
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mariadecastro wrote:

    Before the absence of much activity and participation this weekend in the forum I decided to start a post myself

    Doesn’t seem to have been working all day? Can’t post anything

  • #67497
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Maria,
    what is a sufficient qouram ? in terms of number of people present/proxy or area by M2 ?

    If, I want to call a meeting. Can I do it ?, what sholud be the venue, how do I invite other owners ? will leaving a date of meeting/Agenda in their letter box is suffecient ?

    How does one ties up the practical isuues with the legal in this instance ?

  • #67498
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    Please find my answers belo win green

    shakeel wrote:
    Hi Maria,
    what is a sufficient qouram ? According to provision 16.3 of the Horizontal Property Act all the owners need to be present and decide it. in terms of number of people present/proxy or area by M2 ?

    If, I want to call a meeting. For the calling of a meeting is needed the 25% of the owners or the representantives of the 25% of the shares of the community.Can I do it ?, What you are entitled to do as an individual owner is to include a topic in the agenda for the next ordinary or extraordinary meeting ( provision 16.2 2º paragraph) what sholud be the venue, how do I invite other owners ? will leaving a date of meeting/Agenda in their letter box is suffecient ? To include a obligatory be listed in the topics to be discussed in the Announcement of the GM.
    How does one ties up the practical isuues with the legal in this instance ? Make a good proposal to be discussed in the next general meeting and you will be actually leading the discussion of anything you consider of interest for the community. I donñt know if I am answering your question or not??[/quote]

  • #67509
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Hi Maria, our urbanisation consists of just villas in plots ranging from 1000-3000 sm2 plots. (There are no community facilities its just fees for lighting, security etc.) There has been a lot of contention over the way the cuotas were revised and for each the last 3 years the president and most of the junta have resigned at the AGM. I would say that approx 45% of the community are spanish and the rest mainly scandinavians, German and English (oh and the odd Russian!) It has always been a well run community and the administrator is very efficient.

    The meeting is conducted in spanish with a translation into English and German. This year it was in spanish only and many english, germans etc. walked out. A german offered to do a translation into german and english but he only summarised what was being discussed. I speak spanish so I could follow it but my husband left half way as he said he “was lost with the translation” Hope I’m not boring you 🙄 So, my question is…Is there any rule that says an official translator should be present ❓

  • #67512
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Maria,
    My reply in block capital

    Hi Maria,
    what is a sufficient qouram ? According to provision 16.3 of the Horizontal Property Act all the owners need to be present and decide it. in terms of number of people present/proxy or area by M2 ?

    THIS NEVER HAPPENS WE WILL BE LUCKY TO HAVE 25% PRESENT

    If, I want to call a meeting. For the calling of a meeting is needed the 25% of the owners or the representantives of the 25% of the shares of the community.Can I do it ?,

    IF ONLY 25% OWNERS COULD GET INVOLVED IN THE RUNNING OF THE COMMUNITY THERE WILL BE VERY FEW PROBLEMS. CAN ONE OR TWO UNSATISFIED RESIDENTS/OWNERS CALL THIS MEETING ?

    What you are entitled to do as an individual owner is to include a topic in the agenda for the next ordinary or extraordinary meeting ( provision 16.2 2º paragraph) what sholud be the venue, how do I invite other owners ? will leaving a date of meeting/Agenda in their letter box is suffecient ? To include a obligatory be listed in the topics to be discussed in the Announcement of the GM.
    How does one ties up the practical isuues with the legal in this instance ? Make a good proposal to be discussed in the next general meeting and you will be actually leading the discussion of anything you consider of interest for the community.

    I UNDERSTAND YOU CAN ADD THE TOPIC IN THE NEXT GENERAL MEETING WHICH WILL TAKE PLACE A YEARS TIME. WHAT ABOUT IF YOU HAVE TO CALL A MEETING DURING THE YEAR ?

    I donñt know if I am answering your question or not??[/quote]
    _________________
    Maria Luisa de Castro
    http://www.costaluzlawyers.es

  • #67513
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    the 25% rule is needed.
    Best,
    Maria

  • #67659
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Shakeel

    To attempt to answer your questions, the following:

    Sufficient Quorum – A MAJORITY of owners who are entitled to vote within your community or representatives who hold their proxy vote. This is the first “convocacion”. Only owners notified in the agenda as owing community fees are unentitled to vote. eg 40 owners total, 3 debtors, leaves 37 entitled to vote or 19 owners and/or proxy votes to enable meeting to proceed under the first convocacion.

    Second Convocacion – This may be held at the very least, a half hour after the first convocacion in the same venue, or on another date, duly notified to all owners in advance at either the same venue or a different one. This is generally the meeting that takes place, due to the number of owners and proxy votes present. To hold this meeting, there only needs to be a token number present or represented. This FEW are then deemed to represent the WHOLE community. If these few vote unanimously, then the community are deemed to have voted unanimously. For a MAJORITY vote, then only 51% of those present or represented, OR their “CUOTAS” is required and so on.
    NB: ALL ABSENTEE OWNERS WITH THE RIGHT TO VOTE ARE DEEMED TO HAVE VOTED “FOR” A PROPOSAL, unless they lodge a written retraction to the President within 30 days of receiving a copy of the Minutes.

    Extra Ordinary Meeting – This can be called at any time throughout the year. This can be convoked (called) by the President OR by 25% of the community owners or 25% of the cuotas (shares) of the community. In effect this means that if there are some unhappy owners, they need to get together in the percentage described above, they can then contact the Administrator and ask that a meeting be called in this context. A venue is then chosen by the 25%, an Agenda issued and time, date and venue notified to ALL community members, not forgetting to take the minutes of the meeting, as these also will need to be inserted into the official community Libro de Actas (Book of Minutes).

    Dissenters – If unhappy with what has happened in a community meeting, or the way a vote has gone, and you believe that the item is to the benefit of one or a few and not to the community in general, and providing that the minutes reflect that you voted against said article OR if you were absent and you wrote to the President to lodge your disagreement (by recorded delivery) within 30 days of receiving your copy of the minutes, YOU singularly can take this to the Courts and seek a judicial ruling on the article you disagree with. Said Court WILL call for the Libro de Actas, in order that the Judge may read the Minutes, hence the absolute importance of the Minutes !!
    NB. Unfortunately, the Minutes are only legally required to be sent to your Spanish address, so unless you have someone checking your mail very frequently, you may not get them. It is a good idea to include in your next Agenda, to have internal community rules, one of which is to send a copy of the Minutes of all meetings to the home address of the owner in whatever country they reside. These “internal rules” are far more easily voted in or out and are equally as binding as your community statutes. The reason for not putting them in the statutes is that one would need a unanimous community vote to change the statutes, which is very hard to do. Far simpler to have a secondary set of “rules” which are equally as binding, yet easier to change.

    This may sound like hard work, but it is the only practical way to do things under the Law of Horizontal Property.

    If you wish to acquaint yourself further with this subject, there is a book written by David Searl entitled You and The Law In Spain. It can be bought from any good bookstore or even Airport.
    The last part of this book has a FULL translation of the Law of Horiz Prop, but goes further in that the author also describes what is the generally accepted meaning and intent of each and every Article. A very good and informative read for EVERYONE living in communities in Spain, who don´t have the full use of the Spanish Language.

    MARIA – Sorry for sticking my nose into a very complex legal question; just trying to help.

  • #67672
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ManzanaPresident

    Very informative post, thank you.

    Thanks as always to Maria too

  • #67674
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @katy wrote:

    Hi Maria, our urbanisation consists of just villas in plots ranging from 1000-3000 sm2 plots. (There are no community facilities its just fees for lighting, security etc.) There has been a lot of contention over the way the cuotas were revised and for each the last 3 years the president and most of the junta have resigned at the AGM. I would say that approx 45% of the community are spanish and the rest mainly scandinavians, German and English (oh and the odd Russian!) It has always been a well run community and the administrator is very efficient.

    The meeting is conducted in spanish with a translation into English and German. This year it was in spanish only and many english, germans etc. walked out. A german offered to do a translation into german and english but he only summarised what was being discussed. I speak spanish so I could follow it but my husband left half way as he said he “was lost with the translation” Hope I’m not boring you 🙄 So, my question is…Is there any rule that says an official translator should be present ❓

    Just bringing this to the top again, can’t anyone answere my question ❗

  • #67677
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy,

    http://www.c-euro.org/index.php?option=com_con … &Itemid=31

    Look at paragraph…..The question of languages

    “If the person calling the meeting knows that not all owners have a common language, he should arrange for an interpreter to be present”………….but……………….

  • #67678
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Thanks Dorothy, spot on as usual 🙂

  • #67679
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy,

    Your frustration is very aparent. Dorothy has posted a very good link which does answer your question to some degree. If you wish to ensure that your meetings are held in more than one language, it is best that you write your proposal to this effect to the President of your Community for inclusion in the next Agenda. Better still is to propose the language within meetings to be added to your “internal community rules”.
    Two languages do add to the length of a meeting but is far more beneficial to the greater part of the community. Three languages however is somewhat impractical.
    We have found that Spanish and English work very well as other foreign nationals tend to understand either one or both of the afore mentioned.
    We also issue the Minutes in both languages, in the name of fair play, but the official version is in Spanish for legal purposes.
    NB When writing a proposal for inclusion in the next agenda, send by recorded delivery……just in case !!

  • #67699
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    There is no specific mention in the Horizontal Property Act to this matter. Even though as a rule of general Law ( guarantees of fundamental rights of provision 53.3 of the Spanish Constitution), the community can never cause defenselessness ( lack of proper defense) to owners so, of course, a translation system is legally required. There are Court Decissions revoking agreements taken in Meetings of Community of Owners by this reason):

    i.e.-

    Provintial Court of Las Palmas: sec. 5ª, S 16-12-2002, nº9/2002, rec.318/2002. Pte: Novalvos Pérez, Manuel.

  • #67715
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maria,

    It is very comforting to witness your knowlege within your profession and the precedents or “rulings” you and your learned colleagues post are also most helpful.

    With reference to your mention of provision 53.3 of the Spanish Constitution and being aware that a Mater Community (Macrocomunidad) is also subject to the Law of Horizontal Property, can a representative of the Master Community “demand” that the meeting be held in at least two languages, and that the minutes of said meeting also be issued in two languages as a minimum.
    Further to this, can a Master Community meeting be declared null and void if indeed one english speaking member was precluded from the discussions due to the meeting language being solely spanish ?

  • #67717
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Thanks, you have articulated what I wanted to know. At our AGM at least 6 people walked out before a volunteer offered to translate. Afew more later left because the translation was not very good.

  • #67730
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    Potentially yes. Even though Law is not Mathematics and answers need to be given after fuil, serious study of the specific facts of the particular case. I would need to know, for example, if the meetings have been always held in Spanish before then and if he expressly asked to have them with a translator to English.. to mention a couple of approximative questions.

  • #67731
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    were meetings just in Spanish before that one?
    Did he ask to have translation support?
    M.

  • #67741
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The meetings have always been translated into German and English. This year the meeting started (without any apologies for the lack of a translator) and when someone raised their hand to say “where is the translator” the junta said we don’t have one. First time in 7 years.

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