Diary of a vendor!

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This topic contains 107 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of katy katy 7 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #54875
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    For a laugh, general interest or whatever, I thought I’d start posting updates on the house-selling process I’ve just embarked on.

    As I’ve posted before ( http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3907 ) I’m not a desperate seller, not moving back to the UK and have no mortgages to worry about. I’ve lived in this house for over 5 years and I’m moving 30mins up the road, to another house I already own, in the campo.

    The plan was to get the townhouse on the market in time for Semana Santa, when all the desfiles go past the house. So, since Xmas I’ve been decorating, finishing off all the little jobs that needed doing, decluttering 🙄 etc. Finally got the house to my satisfaction last week and took lots of photos before I cluttered it up again!

    In terms of price, I think I’ve been realistic in the asking price and I’ve pitched it just under what is being asked for similar sized properties in town (many of which require work, whereas mine is renovated to a good standard). The asking price is 98k€ (I’m not shy talking about money!).

    I’m hoping for a private sale so, at this stage, I’ve not put the house on with any estate agents. So far I’ve put up a “FOR SALE” sign on the front of the house and advertised the house on as many of the Spanish property for sale websites as I can (fotocasa, milanuncios, mundoanuncio, expobarrio, pisos.com, tablondeanuncios, suvivienda, idealista, anunciosenred) as well as this site (of course!) and a couple of other English language sites (homesonsale, propertysalespain). The Spanish sites are very user-friendly and you can upload photos. Some of them provide you with statistics of number of views, number of people who’ve looked at your contact details etc.

    This was all done a week ago. I’m also going to put flyers up around town (as soon as my ink cartridges arrive!).

    To date, I’ve had 2 expressions of interest via fotocasa, none via any of the other websites. One left a message that he’d be interested if the price went down to 85k. The other wants to come and view the house next week. He’s actually French, not Spanish. I’ve also had one call via the “FOR SALE” sign on the house, asking the price and saying that he will now talk to his family.

    If anyone’s interested, I’ll post updates from the horse’s mouth so to speak, as and when. The worst part for me is trying to keep the house clean and tidy… 😉

  • #91235
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Hi, good luck! This is supposed to be the busiest time of the year. I think your ad was great, surely a style many of these Agents should copy.

    I have a Friend in Monda, their place has been up for sale for a while. A little overpriced (I think) but not massively. (300,000E)Their neighbour, a weekender from Marbella said a relative was interested would they negotiate. Along came this Guy and said he would offer them 100,000 providing it was a strictly cash deal…all black money 😯

    Be careful, a friend has a sign outside. Had viewers last week. They were wandering all over the place and she was alone. (3 of them). She lost a small clock and two silver ornaments…not great value but sentimental.

  • #91236
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Katy!
    Me & the Staffie will frisk anyone before they leave the premises 😉

  • #91240
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m doing some research into publishers migrating from print to the internet and was wondering why you chose not to advertise in any of the UK Spanish/Overseas property magazines.

  • #91243
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Simples! At this stage I’m only advertising via free means!
    I am an advertiser with one of the Spain lifestyle type magazines and also a freelance writer for them so I am aware of them but don’t think that they are necessarily an effective medium for private property sales.
    When the time comes to start paying for advertising I will consider placing ads in this type of magazine, but at the moment I’m hoping for a Spanish buyer.

  • #91253
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Dallas. A magazine/newspaper has a very short span of the reader attention. The advertisement cost are to high in term of cost benefit.

  • #91298
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Today I had my first viewing, huzzah! (One more than many vendors have had 😉 ).
    Twas a French guy in the film industry who currently splits his time between a rented apt in Sevilla & his main home in France and is looking for his own place within striking distance of Sevilla. He spent a fair amount of time here and we got on well which was a bonus. He genuinely liked and seemed interested in the property and wants to send an architect friend of his round to check it out. He thought the price was very reasonable compared to others he’s seen and didn’t try to start haggling. He needs to sell a place in France though and wouldn’t be able to buy until June, but at least he was up front about that and I’m in no hurry. I told him he was the first to view the house and he said “maybe the last!” (that could be taken one of two ways lol).

  • #91299
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hillybilly: The good thing for you is that property market in France is very stable & he has a good chance to sell it. However the area of Lille, Toulouse & part of Grenoble area’s are in serious trouble. I hope your prospective tenant is not selling there.

  • #91300
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Lyon apparently.

  • #91387
    Profile photo of DrRobert
    DrRobert
    Participant

    Very good post hb! Any chance of a link to any of your ads (othet than the one here, of course)?

    Keep the updates coming!

    (Which mag do you write for, by the way?)

  • #91393
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    My ads are on the Spanish property for sale sites I mentioned above. Search for property for sale in Estepa, Sevilla.
    The magazine I mostly write for is Living Spain.

  • #91614
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This week I had, I think, my first contact from a “scammer” type person. He left a message, having seen the ad on one of the English language sites I’ve advertised on. Spoke English with a foreign accent which I couldn’t place. The country code from his call I thought was Italy but when I spoke to him he said he was in Israel! He asked me to email him more photos (even tho there were plenty in the ad) and said he’d text me his email address…which I’ve never received. What made me think he might be a scammer was when I asked him in which country he was, he asked me which country I was in!!!! 😯 You think you’d know which country the property was in that you were calling about…although he did say he was calling on behalf of his father so maybe I’m being skeptical!

    Anyway, had another call from a lady in Huelva who’d seen the ad on mundoanuncio but I’ve not been able to speak to her yet even though I’ve called her back a few times and left messages on her voicemail twice… 🙄

    Also had a call asking the price etc this week from a guy in town who’d seen the for sale sign on the house. He called back today and he and his wife (Spanish) are coming to view on Monday.

    Oh and this week my ink cartridges arrived so I printed off some flyers and put them up round town in the papelerias, petrol station, library, adult centre etc etc…anywhere that lets you display ads! Next week I think I shall venture further afield with flyers, both Spanish and English.

  • #91616
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hillybilly, do take care of your personal safety. If you have a viewing, ask a friend to be in the house with you at the time, if at all possible.

  • #91619
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wise advise from Claire, even if there is some one there . These people could be on a reconnaissance trip to locate what is kept in the house & where .

    He could be a Russian, Romanian or Bulgarian. Than again from Israel. They tend to elevate their crooks, Robert Maxwell to mention & I am sure that when Maddoff dies he will be sent there as well.

  • #91620
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    We had lots of scammers when we advertised on the internet some years ago. Was a bit naive at first. Guy called from belgium claiming to be a middle man for an investor. He asked for more details/photos (sent lots) asked for “bottom” price. Crunch came when he wanted me to fly to Paris to do the transaction 😯 Got used to them after a while…Viva sold it eventually, sometimes estate agents have a use 😆

  • #91624
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wait till you get a Nigerian, buyer who offer you price far in excess of your wildest dreams

  • #91642
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hillbilly,

    I can only confirm what others have said… take reasonable precautions when arranging viewings. Even if its just letting someone know that you are expecting visitors.

    Check out this website.

    http://www.suzylamplugh.org/content.asp?PageID=1022

  • #91644
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you all for the warnings, very sensible.
    I am aware of the dangers as I’ve worked as a lone female in the surveying profession for many years, both in the UK and Spain, often travelling far afield to meet an unknown person and so I do make sure that someone always knows where I am and who I’m meeting.

  • #91649
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hilly billy, Don’t be such a meanie – why begrudge the agents their little fee? ; unless of course you have a jewel; which i doubt – spend your time on another project rather than trying to conjure up a buyer out of thin air – hey, good luck – can we some some pikkies please – you never know !!

  • #91651
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    From “Private Sales” Forum:
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4168

    I think it looks delightful.

  • #91652
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi,

    House looks fab, beautifully decorated and lovely views by the looks of it and what a good price – best of luck with the sale

    Angea 🙂

  • #91669
    Profile photo of DrRobert
    DrRobert
    Participant

    I go along with that HB. Excellent description, and well sold! (How do you put pics up, by the way? I’ve had a look on the “Post” and “Edit” sections and can’t see anything.)

  • #91671
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I use photobucket. You upload your photos to your photobucket acct and then you can easily share them on sites like this with the facility to add images.

  • #91676
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    HI Hill Billy

    If you are going to use flyers one thing I used to do to great effect when I was an estate agent was to take them to the local market and hand them out. On an average week we would get maybe four or five potential buyers and 10 or so potential sellers (Appreciate the latter is not of interest to you)

    But by putting the leaflet directly in their hands you can ask the question “Are you interested in buying a house in this area” and that is a very powerful feedback you don’t get the opportunity with print advertising generally. Also if they say yes then you have a potential buyer right there in front of you – get his/her phone number and follow it up

    Also I dont know if you have tried Segunda mano (http://www.segundamano.es) I used to get a very good response from the adverts I placed there (although they now charge even for private sales – it may still be worth it as it is where most Spanish people look for anything to sell/buy)

    Finally never underestimate the power of your friends. When I sold my house two years ago, I sent an email to my contact list and made a plea – I also asked therm to re send the email to everyone they knew. The response was amazing. I sent the email on a Tuesday – by Friday I had 15 viewings and by Sunday four offers (I also sold my neighbours house as there were four offers)

    I wish you all the best of luck in selling your house

    Vince

  • #91717
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @vbtudor wrote:

    I also sold my neighbours house as there were four offers

    I hope your neighbour knew lol!
    Thanks Vince, you’ve given me an idea re the markets which I hadn’t thought of. Not sure if I’m up to thrusting flyers into people’s hands but I might go and stick flyers on windscreens (tho I hate it when people do that to me, never mind eh!)
    The pre-arranged couple came to view on Monday evening. They already own 2 properties in town but are looking for somewhere quieter, on the edge of town. Money seems to be no object even though they’re only in their late 20’s agewise, as in they don’t need to sell anything to buy a 3rd property so I’m guessing loaded familes lol.
    Today I noticed that some of the flyers I posted around town last week have had my phone no. strip torn off…so that should have forewarned me re what happened this evening…
    Not long in from work, still scruffy, sitting down with a plate of nosh and a glass of wine, telly on, kitchen a mess, bed unmade, clothes on the floor etc etc when the doorbell rings (9pm) and it’s a young couple wanting to view the house having seen one of the flyers in town. They are engaged, getting married soon and are looking for their first home together.
    That’ll teach me
    😳

  • #91720
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Hillbilly

    If you are going to use leaflets I would seriously suggest you do NOT pt them on car windows – for two reasons. In many towns it is illegal to put propaganda on car windscreens (though little is done about it) but more importantly as you have already stated it cheeses people off and they do not look at it. Why waste the paper.

    I use leaflets all the time to promote my music and the band concerts. When I first started the venues put the leaflets on the windows – in 10,000 leaflets we were lucky to get a single person turning up from the publicity (fortunately I have my own fan base locally who are very supportive)

    Now I will not let any venue put the leaflets out themselves. I always put them into the hand of people and tell them what it is about. It is much more personal. The result is that from each drop of a 1,000 leaflets (I have reduced it as it is much more effective) I get maybe 15-35 people turning up from the leaflets

    If you aren’t comfortable doing it then hire a Zafatta to do it for you (these are the models you see at exhibitions and you can usually hire one for about €30 for a couple of hours) or get a college student to do it for you (and tell them to make sure to give them a bonus couple of Euros for every lead they bring you with an additional bonus of say €100 if one of them leads to a sale)

    Or if you dont want tspend money get a bolshy friend (or friends) and offer them a beer or two once they have finished it, to do it for you.

    That way you get the job done but you don’t have to worry about it.

    But putting leaflets on car windows will just have one result – the street cleaners will hate you for it and the car owners will be baying for your blood – and you will have wasted your money.

    Good luck and best wishes

    Vince

  • #91721
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for the advice, Vince.
    Don’t think I’d trust anybody else to do my dirty work (I’m not very good at delegating!) so I shall have to get up some Dutch courage and get out there and do it myself!

  • #91723
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Hillbilly

    I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Just remember no-one is obliged to take your leaflet. However one trick that works very well is to have a friend in the market run up to you to take on – and really make a point of asking for it and positively enthusing about it – “Wow this is fantastic”
    People do follow like sheep

    You well find that Spanish people will willingly (generally) take the leaflet, English people sometimes have to be cajoled,

    So don’t worry it is painless – you will in general give them out to about 30 of the people you pass – The bit no one likes though is asking them if they are interested. If you arent comfortable doing that then dont do it (I actually enjoy engaging with people so it doesnt bother me)

    Just remember one thing – no matter what the response from people is just smile and say “Thanks” or “Gracias” or “Vielen Danke” or “Danke u vel” or “Merci Beaucoups” (I am sure you get the idea by now)

    Best of luck and do prey tell how it goes

    Vince

  • #91825
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I didn’t make it to the big market we have nearby (Sun) as it was raining quite persistently! Maybe next weekend…
    I’ve placed an ad on another free Spanish site I’ve found (Loquo), tho I don’t think it’s a great one (the site, not my ad!) Also paid 20€ for an ad in the next edition of my most local English language magazine.
    None of the three viewers I’ve had to date has come back to me but I have yet another couple coming to view tomorrow evening…that averages at a viewing per week (to date lol!).

  • #91876
    Profile photo of DrRobert
    DrRobert
    Participant

    Better than the average estate agent, Boo Boo!

  • #91879
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I tell you what, my sales patter is improving with every viewing. In 18 months time, when I’m still doing this 😉 , it’ll take 2 hours to go round the house and the viewers will be so desperate to leave they’ll have to put in an offer, just to get escape the clutches of the mad English woman!

  • #91880
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    NOW you sound like a true agent!!!!! 😆

  • #92038
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    I really enjoyed this thread.

    I think you have a fabulous property, very well priced and exceptionally well presented, but it seems a couple more weeks have gone by, are you still getting the viewings?

    I really am rooting for you to sell this privately, but am wondering if your efforts are still bringing regular fruit?

    Good luck!

  • #92039
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Chris, no more viewings to date but one more enquiry via fotocasa and one via suvivienda, viewings tba.
    Car problems in the last 2 weeks have been taking up all my time, energy & €
    🙄

  • #92041
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    Has no one sent you a PM offering 50% below your askign price yet?

    That is what most vendors get at some point or other in the process, whether privately or through an agent.

  • #92045
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Not quite 50% but had one for 38% less 😉

  • #92048
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    I am afraid it is very common that whatever your property and whatever your price, and no matter how you present that property in its best condition or in relation to the market as you know it to be … if you are selling today, a substantial number of prospective buyers believe that they can simply offer 50% off and will act dumbfounded when you say of course no.

  • #92065
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well, it’s all happening today!
    Another enquiry via fotocasa (a couple from Sevilla) and a call from a lady in Valencia 😯 who’s seen the ad on suvivienda and is looking for a 2nd home in Sevilla where she has family.
    So, of the internet sites, fotocasa comes out top for interest to date, followed by suvivienda (in case anyone else is thinking of using these sites).

  • #92066
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    if you are selling today, a substantial number of prospective buyers believe that they can simply offer 50% off and will act dumbfounded when you say of course no.

    Any reason why a buyer (whos is not in love with a particular property) wouldn’t do that?

    There are sellers who will say of course YES to any offer but nobody is interested…

  • #92068
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @hillybilly wrote:

    So, of the internet sites, fotocasa comes out top for interest to date, followed by suvivienda (in case anyone else is thinking of using these sites).

    Fotocasa is a very good site to find property. Pisos.com is a also a good one as is idealista

    The sites in English mostly offer well overpriced properties with no use for serious/informed buyers.

  • #92071
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:
    if you are selling today, a substantial number of prospective buyers believe that they can simply offer 50% off and will act dumbfounded when you say of course no.

    Any reason why a buyer (whos is not in love with a particular property) wouldn’t do that?

    There are sellers who will say of course YES to any offer but nobody is interested…

    Well yes, there is a reason why someone perhaps shouldn’t do that.

    And Hillybilly’s property is a prime case in point, it is well presented, well priced, well located and real value for a buyer.

    Now, let me ask you a question Flosmichael…

    What kind of car do you drive?

    I heard someone ask this very question to a prospective client who had just stated that they would only buy at 50% off any property.

    The answer from the client was a BMW X5, the questioner then asked…

    How much is it worth?

    The client said about £36k as it was a year or two old and of course secondhand.

    Fine said the questioner, I’ll take it… let me offer you £18k and take it off your hands.

    The client looked at the questioner as if she was stupid, until she asked the client to think about the vendors position also.

    Think about Hillybilly’s property, would she sell it for 50% less, absolutely not, for the the same reasons as the BMW X5 owner, it would be an insult to her intelligence really it would.

    Yes of course in certain conditions one can offer a vastly reduced price, and it may at this time be very advantageous to do so, but firstly I don’t think you will ever be able to buy a resale at 50% off its true market value, it is a pipe dream and you won’t even get close.

    So why do people walk around and waste their own time, energy and actually money with the obscure notion that everything should and will be 50% off.

    I think Hillybilly will sell, and I am hoping quite soon, I think she has a property that will blow her neighbours properties out of the water in style and price, I think that as buyers look around they will see her real and genuine value and the properties presentation as greats assets to buy, but she is going to have to deal with the odd idiot offering a stupid price.

    And the mad thing is the idiot is going to walk away, shaking his head and not understanding why no one wants his 50% money, and when the market quietly starts to move back, and fills silently overnight like a well, he will end up with vendors not wanting to move an inch or 5% on their asking price let alone 50%.

  • #92077
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes, I agree. The 50% off developers prices are just like the old MFI sales. Buyers also have to take into account that many recent re-sales that have come onto the market have been more sensibly priced and taken into account the falling market. Some buyers need to ask themselves would they sell their UK home for even30% less, probably not. Not everyone is Spain is desperate to sell…they will just wait a little longer.

    Hillbilly’s house is ideal for the spanish market, low priced and a one-off. Most spanish do not like to buy in communities that charge high fees and have lots of foreign tourists around.

  • #92079
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    And the mad thing is the idiot is going to walk away, shaking his head and not understanding why no one wants his 50% money, and when the market quietly starts to move back, and fills silently overnight like a well, he will end up with vendors not wanting to move an inch or 5% on their asking price let alone 50%.

    Don’t worry, the low-ball offer does not mean that the buyer is an idiot.
    From my own experience as a buyer, I can tell you that there is always some seller who is rushed to sell and will accept a low-ball offer.

    Who is a bigger “idiot”, a buyer offering 50% for a property that he does not neccesary want to buy (except at a low price) or a seller living in coo-coo land who does not offer any reduction?

  • #92084
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    . Some buyers need to ask themselves would they sell their UK home for even30% less, probably not. Not everyone is Spain is desperate to sell…

    There is no comparison between UK market and Spanish market.
    Spanish market is similar to US market and there is a carnage over the Atlantic…

  • #92085
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The difference is that the majority of homes on the CDS are second homes, many will just hold on. There are still many people who own here who do have a lot of money. I know someone who bought a 2/2 at Mijas costa last week. He thought it was a snip because it was reduced by about 40,000 so bought as an investment. I don’t think it was a good buy but, he doesn’t read this forum 😆

    As in the UK and Spain some places are still ok. The house I was interested in viewing in the UK sold within 3 weeks of coming on the market, didn’t even get chance to view! According to a Florida forum Naples has not dropped so much except in the newer developments which are not so good and out of the way (most bought to flip). I think (aside from a few distressed sales) there won’t be many bargains on the CDS except in places where no-one wants to buy.

  • #92086
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    I think (aside from a few distressed sales) there won’t be many bargains on the CDS except in places where no-one wants to buy.

    The prices are already better than 2-3 years ago.

    I think that there will many bargains, after people finish their denial phase which seems ot be longer in CDS. I agree that whoever does not need to sell, won’t sell.
    But there will be many people who need to sell because they will need the money.

    About Naples prices, my mother-in-law bought recently a Naples Park property (as you know, a good area of Naples) for about 60% of the 2006 price so prices have fallen quite a lot. The only difference is that in USA you can find the bargains, whether in Spain there keep of hiding them under rugs…

  • #92087
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @flosmichael wrote:

    Who is a bigger “idiot”, a buyer offering 50% for a property that he does not neccesary want to buy (except at a low price) or a seller living in coo-coo land who does not offer any reduction?

    is that a trick question?

  • #92089
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @fuengi wrote:

    @flosmichael wrote:
    Who is a bigger “idiot”, a buyer offering 50% for a property that he does not neccesary want to buy (except at a low price) or a seller living in coo-coo land who does not offer any reduction?

    is that a trick question?

    Take it however you like…

    But I have never heard an agent calling a buyer as “idiot”… Maybe I did not get close enough. 😀

  • #92093
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    You wont hear us calling buyers idiots in public thats for sure, however, on a friday night after a well earned glass or two………(or wednesday after the start to this week!!) 😆

  • #92123
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    Whoa…!

    I never meant to call you or buyers in general idiots…!

    So if you have taken it that way, then please accept my apologies, that is not how it was intended.

    I also agree that anyone can make whatever offer they like, but what I was trying (I think) to say, was that someone who just believes that they can walk willy nilly to every property they see and offer 50% off is perhaps acting in an idiotic way.

    It is not realistic, it is not going to work, and the car analogy was my of demonstrating that similarly of course Hillybilly won’t be accepting offers of 50% or it seems even 38% off, won’t even begin to consider them.

    And nor should she, and nor will 98% of other owners, who won’t listen to idiotic offers lets call them.

    Which doesn’t mean to say that you can’t buy a property now for around 30% less than it was at the peak.

    And anyway, just for fun I hereby declare the bottom of the market, the end of the denial phase and officially declare that from the mid summer prices will no longer fall, they will start to rise.

    Please pass along the message!

    Mmm, does that make me an idiot?

    I mean somebody has to call an end to the market fall, why not me?

  • #92125
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    And anyway, just for fun I hereby declare the bottom of the market, the end of the denial phase and officially declare that from the mid summer prices will no longer fall, they will start to rise.

    Please pass along the message!

    Mmm, does that make me an idiot?

    Well, by October-November we shall be able to give you an aswer to your question… 😀

    I really hope you are right because this would mean that by Autumn the Spanish recession and also British recession are over. And also that people started to have some salary increases.

  • #92369
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Nothing more to report really since my last post on this topic. No more viewings as yet, but lots of interest from my flyers around town (which I now need to replace in the next couple of days as some have disappeared). No calls as a result of the paid-for ad I placed in a local English language magazine either (apart from an estate agent 😉 ).
    I’ve asked a good and trusted Spanish friend in town to recommend me a corredor so that will be my next move I think.

  • #92371
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    That is a shame, any day now I have been expecting you to pop up and post that a sale has been achieved .

    Can I ask what your friend thinks a corredor will charge as a commission?

    Sign of the times though Hillybilly, your property once would have had 20 web leads in one month alone had I promoted it a few years ago.

    Let us know what a corredor will charge as a commission and maybe I can come up with a unique scenario for your property to be promoted to a wider UK market and lets see if that can help.

  • #92385
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    Whoa…!

    Mmm, does that make me an idiot?

    No just either extremely optimistic or very deluded.

    This crash will run for many years.

  • #92386
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Chris

    don’t you think ‘the crash’ is only a part of Spains problems? What about the massive overbuilds, the ugly half finished or low occupied developments, the fact people are still not getting justice when wronged or are facing long costly court battles in black and white cases, that alone the exchange rate, and higher cost of living and all the bad publicity that all these problems are causing. (the hideous case the Priors have been in for instance) Those in a position to make change to benifit everyone (apart from the crooks) are so slow and dragging their heels that Spains recovery will probably take far longer than it need?

    Perhaps i’m wrong, but I can’t see many people taking a gamble on the above without feeling very sure the bottom of the market price is now, and who could say that with any confidence? I think many feel it could well crash far further unless Spain shows the world it intends to get its house in order and do something to inspire buyers with confidence instead of worry and doubt.

  • #92387
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    No just either extremely optimistic or very deluded.
    This crash will run for many years.

    I agree the crash and its effects will have its impact over a number of years yes, but the bottom of the market is the bottom of the market, is it now?

    Month on month this year, an agency I know is reporting increasing clients and sales against the last 12 months, that people are returning, not in great numbers but significant enough I would venture.

    That being 51 clients last month. Their traffic is building up, from its low base of about 10 clients in a month, so whilst the effect of the crash will go and go, I believe the low point in terms of traffic has been hit, and that this is not a dead cat bounce – if that is the right expression.

  • #92388
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    Chris

    don’t you think ‘the crash’ is only a part of Spains problems? What about the massive overbuilds, the ugly half finished or low occupied developments, the fact people are still not getting justice when wronged or are facing long costly court battles in black and white cases, that alone the exchange rate, and higher cost of living and all the bad publicity that all these problems are causing. (the hideous case the Priors have been in for instance) Those in a position to make change to benifit everyone (apart from the crooks) are so slow and dragging their heels that Spains recovery will probably take far longer than it need?

    Perhaps i’m wrong, but I can’t see many people taking a gamble on the above without feeling very sure the bottom of the market price is now, and who could say that with any confidence? I think many feel it could well crash far further unless Spain shows the world it intends to get its house in order and do something to inspire buyers with confidence instead of worry and doubt.

    Regarding overbuilds etc, I think Katy hit the nail on the head when she talked about Miami and other places having been concreted over and it didn’t stop them, and I don’t think it is going to stop this coast either.

    40 years ago Marbella was a little fishing village, 10 years from now it will have expanded again and again, and it won’t stop. People want to be here, take a look a Boothy who is on another thread “Bought at last” and bought in an area that is often severely criticised for being overbuilt and concreted over.

    I hate the injustice that people have suffered, I am aware of the court cases etc, but they were here in the past also, and people across the UK have also suffered in the “buy to let” market, people have had homes repossessed that were sold on a scam basis, there have always been these kind of situations, but it won’t stop people from buying now, in fact those people will feel they are more protected than ever and see the benefit of buying in a new environment. Not fair but true.

    Exchange rates go up and down, different people have different ways of looking at this, when the rates go back up so will vendor prices as people look to get more sterling if they are UK vendors. How long do you wait for the rate? How much time do you waste?

    What about all the happy people that are here, owning, holidaying, enjoying the coast and want to have more of that, or be part of that? It is doom and gloom a lot of the time on this forum, and I get that, I really do, but is this forum the de facto truth of the matter?

    I came to Spain today and the airport was log jammed with visitors and I had to wait over an hour to pick up my blooming car at the airport car hire desk.

    Again Boothy bought, took his/her time doing so, and was very careful but seems delighted in fact thrilled to be owning, and is more than aware of the warnings, protestations of disaster on this forum, and has actually used that to good effect, but it didn’t stop him/her did it?

    Getting the house in order? Well the house crashed here way before anywhere else, and here took a helluva beating about it all, with corruption scandals, total loss of confidence, market collapse etc. But then hasn’t the same thing happened everywhere else?

    Look at the MP scandal in the UK now. The banking crisis there, go back a few years on this forum and people talked about how that could never happen in the UK, but it has and it did.

    Are things so much different here? Have lessons been learned? Are people now more safe and secure because of what happened?

    But most importantly do people want to be here?

    Yes they do, and they will always do, and here is nothing like as bad as so many other places, in fact it came out quite well when comparing to other locations on another thread.

    Is the job of this forum done? No, keep on warning, keep on posting, because the message has got through and needs to continue to be so, but the market is at the bottom, traffic and interest is on the way back, and barring another collapse in the financial markets it will continue now.

    You can’t stop it. And Spain is a great place, optimistic I may be, but it is a good place to be and there are a million others who have bought and own here who think likewise, despite some issues they may currently have.

    All rosy in the garden then? No, far from it, but we can’t stay down forever, and you guys were right when it was falling and falling apart, but you don’t want to be in denial when it picks back up again, because then the forum will lose even more impetus and visitors than it already has over the past year or two.

    Phew, there i go agai, using 1,000 words when about 50 should have sufficed, sorry!

  • #92390
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Right, found myself a corredor (remembered one I’d met a few years ago and tracked him down 😉 )
    His fees are 1.5% commission which is just fine by me.

  • #92393
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well said Chris. Brilliantly put.

    This forum has been dominated by the ‘hurt minority’ which is understandable; being ripped-off obviously hits you in the guts. A lot of agents have also come under excess criticism. For example V**a. No doubt some people had a bad experience dealing with them, but there are also 100’s of satisfied clients, otherwise they would have gone bust years ago. Their new website is very impressive and well designed.

    People want to live in Spain. People buy on sentiment rather than location. When prices rise people buy. We could see a ‘turn-around’ sooner than expected.

  • #92397
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    maximus said

    ”This forum has been dominated by the ‘hurt minority’ ”

    The problems I mentioned were rearing their ugly heads long before the crash. Spain was heading for a property/building disaster whatever the rest of the world was doing. Those who feel the problems outside ‘the crash’ are felt only by a hurt minority are probably in the biggest denial?

  • #92398
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If you think this forum is over run with “hurt” people, it’s nothing compared to some other forums. Reading other forums, it appears that anyone who dealt with OVP just to name one, are REALLY hurt. There are countless other scams involving crooked agents/developers and lawyers.
    It’s crazy to think everything will come back rosy in Spain sometime soon…unless you are a “talk the market up” agent wishfully thinking ,hoping, praying! 😉

  • #92399
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi there everyone

    Just wanted to add a few comments. Although I used to be an agent I havent practised for 2 and a bit years now. However I still keep in touch with agents I know for a personal interest (and they are friends)

    Looking around where I live (North Costa Blanca just north of Oliva) I can see a mixture of things happening. People desperate to sell are reducing their prices substantially – to levels I have not seen since I moved here. It is possible to buy a town house for about €60K up to about 100K for a decent size property.

    However there are also many people who are asking un realistic prices (Both foreigners and locals)

    Yesterday I went to Oliva town to have a coffee with a friend (I do about once a week) and around where he works five of the six coffee shops were shut down – these are local businesses that have been here for years and were part of the local community – so much so that there were a group of 10 or so Spanish pensioners wondering where their friends were and milling aimlessly from one cafe to another to try and locate them.

    Where once the high street was teeming with businesses there are now Se Alquiler and se vende signs on commercial (and residential) premises.

    In my local town of Piles – normally this is a great time of year. The bar owners are ramping up for the summer and trade is usually brisk. Last weekend there were hundreds of people here, as usual. However I play in a couple of bars (and play for a percentage of the bar so the owners have no risk) and whilst people are coming in, they aren’t eating and they are making one drink last the night – catastrophic for the owners.

    In spite f all this I know of a couple of people who want to start a business – and a small commercial premises is being asked nearly €3,000 a month for a cafeteria

    My point is that I believe (certainly locally) that some people have got it and some people haven’t. Some people are realistic when selling and some clearly don’t want to sell/Rent

    The local economy is shot to hell and nearly everyone I know is not working or working on a commission only basis or working for less than they would normally get for the same job.

    However there are signs from estate agents that enquiries (at present) are increasing. These are not hard and fast sales or rentals, but certainly it is a sign that things are moving. How far this has to go I do not know, but I believe that those who are realistic will see a movement soon, those that arent will see nothing.

    I appreciate this is off topic for the original post and I do hope Hill Billy that you find a buyer soon.

    Best wishes to everyone and I believe a recovery is not far away, but is certainly not here yet. Some bottoming out needs to happen in some quarters-

  • #92400
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    vbtutor I think your observations are spot on. I also agree with Claire´s point. To my mind anyone who thinks the good times are soon on their way back is delusional.

    There are three key factors that will determine property prices in Spain. How the economy performs, supply and affordability.

    The economy is in a mess and looks set to be so for some time to come. Unemployment, currently just over 17% isn´t expected to peak until next year at somewhere close to 25%.

    The over supply of properties is well documented. I really don´t think the banks have the resources to hold all the unsold new builds on their books. The only question is how quickly they´ll start dropping prices to shift them.

    Last time I looked the price of an ´average´ property in Spain was still over six times the average salary. This is still way too high by Western European standards (Between three and four times is normal).

    In previous times the government would have printed money and inflation would have taken care of the necessary depreciation in values. That is not an option now. With the rest of Europe´s economies in the doldrums foreigeners are not going to take up much slack.

    In short, prices have only one way to go and they won´t be rising. This market will be correcting itself for at least another year.

  • #92401
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire

    the ‘talk the market up’ brigade always follow the line that things are now ‘on the up’ and they try to ignore all the scams and pretty much all the other problems. This is no suprise, but doesn’t fool many these days I doubt. You only have to look at all the developments with problems, petitions etc, to know that the problems are many and for a large number of people. Those cheated know full well there are also many happy people, we wouldn’t have tried to buy in the first place if that wasn’t obvious!. If recovery is really going to happen on a big scale then the well reported problems must be faced I think and dealt with. The economic recovery (when it comes) will no doubt boost sales, but to ignore the other problems is sticking your head in the sand, which is pretty much what Spain seems happy doing, so perhaps not much will change if agents are happy to follow the same line?

  • #92402
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yep – all valid comments.

    The market is turning in the UK now. Interest rates will soon follow. I think we can expect positive economic growth next spring. Buyers will return to Spain in substantial numbers.

  • #92403
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The market is turning in the UK now.

    The latest Halifax index showed that the rate of decrease is slowing. That is a far way from saying the market in the UK is turning. Most independent observers feel the UK market will be falling for another year. After that it will be stagnant.

    I think we can expect positive economic growth next spring.

    In the UK and most of Western Europe (not Spain) this may indeed happen. Any recovery is however likely to be sluggish.

    Buyers will return to Spain in substantial numbers.

    Not for many years. You can wish it all you want but pretty well all the fundamentals indicate otherwise.

  • #92404
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    maximus

    well I have seen more ‘for sale’ and ‘sold’ boards appearing in the UK. As for Spain though, while a small amount of very cautious people will always buy, what would attract people in substantial numbers? The only thing i can imagine might be substantial discounts of a size we haven’t seen yet?
    With approx 1,000,000 unsold properties, many in undesirable locations, supply and demand is probably only an issue on highly desirable properties. Mortgages will continue to be tricky due to risk awareness and huge amounts of money tied up in dead stock, and the old attractions like ‘almost inevitable capital growth’, ‘low cost of living’ ‘money safe in bricks and mortar’ just don’t add up anymore.
    I’m not sure Spain will recover much without substantial change, and I can’t see much sign of that in the near future?

  • #92405
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Authoritive and respected source of global property price information announces today results for Q1 2009

    http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/investment-analysis/House-price-falls-during-year-to-end-Q1-2009-the-worst-ever

    I think you will find that Spain is not doing to badly compared to the rest

    Steve

  • #92406
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Steve,

    Authoritive it may be but case I´m afraid in the case of Spain the figures are badly flawed. This survey uses the official Spanish government figures which pretty well everyone agrees are ridiculously optimistic.

  • #92408
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    I hope I haven’t said “the good times are on their way back” or been guilty of talking the market up.

    In fact I hope the “good times” are not on their way back because that will bring all manner of the same problems back, and unsavoury types to boot.

    What I am saying is that things are not continuing downward, there is a degree of bounce back, there is a future, and possibly a long road to travel, and possibly a slow road to recovery, but it starts somewhere, and I think that is here and now.

  • #92410
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Chris said

    ”things are not continuing downward,”

    with comments like that you are talking it up!!

    People are having to discount heavily to sell. Mortgages are near impossible for many, the building industry is on its knees and the bad press, documentries etc through various scams, corruption, huge debts etc, wont just go away without positive action.

  • #92413
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    What I am saying is that things are not continuing downward, there is a degree of bounce back, there is a future, and possibly a long road to travel, and possibly a slow road to recovery, but it starts somewhere, and I think that is here and now.

    There is always a bounce back in the Spring. It is called “Spring Bounce” everywhere in the wor ld. I tought you would know it…

    On the other hand it is normal that more people want to buy, they keep on hearing that the prices are down. The uninformed ones will buy now, the informed now will just solidify their knowledge of the market (I am planning to create a clear idea on where I would buy this Summer and maybe think seriously about buying later on).

    There is acnowledge that there are 1 million+ apartments on the
    market, there are 88K apartments which were finished in the first 3 months of 2009. And you then compare these 88K apartments with a ridiculous number of 55 enquiries??????

  • #92415
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @vbtudor wrote:

    Looking around where I live (North Costa Blanca just north of Oliva) I can see a mixture of things happening. People desperate to sell are reducing their prices substantially – to levels I have not seen since I moved here. It is possible to buy a town house for about €60K up to about 100K for a decent size property.

    s-

    Are these prices in North Costa Blanca or South Costa Blanca? South Costa Blanca has cheap prices (FOR A REASON OF COURSE) but
    I have seen that the North Costa Blanca prices are still up.

  • #92416
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Flosmichael

    these are for North Costa Blanca and ONLY in Oliva and round about. I cannot speak for places such as Denia, Pedreguer, Pego, Javea, etc as I do not live there nor do I keep in touch with prices there. But where I live (Piles – close to Oliva) and Oliva itself these prices are creeping in – not in huge amounts but certainly a year ago it was impossible to find properties anywhere near these prices

    Vince

  • #92417
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As a case in point – I just searched on townhouses in oliva under 100K on Kyero and there are 26 of them (in various states from run down to move in)

    Two years ago when I was looking on behalf of a client I found one for sale in Oliva at under 100K – and that was a shell which had no roof, and was to be rebuilt literally.

    But even looking at these there are some that are over priced. Some that are ok and some are bargains (well on the surface they are unless you know where they are and in a couple of instances they are in the gypsy quarter which I doubt if you could give away let alone sell.)

    However the point is that there are availability of such property now, but still many more for sale in the same town which are way over priced

    My point is that at these prices the market will generate interest, because at 100K for a 4 bed town house which can be moved in, people will look (whether they will like what they see is another matter)

    BUT there is not enough quality property available for it to be attractive to anything but those who aren’t really interested in where they live, just want a “bargain”. Who may have luckily sold a house in Northern Europe and think it is a good time to buy.

    There is no local economy to sustain the town (even with the governments schemes of pumping money into local schemes to bring back construction workers – ie €275,000 to fund the increasing of pavement areas on corners – with a whole 5 people working in total.

    I do not doubt that there are signs of life, but I dont think it is enough to say we are on the road to recovery – not yet anyway. But who knows in a few months time people may come back

  • #92418
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Finally (sorry to be such a pain) I just want to say that having lived in Spain for more than six years now, I would not want to go back to the UK. It has not been an easy time (and right now is killing me and my family – fortunately everyone is chipping in and all the mone we have is doing the rounds between 3 families) however, I am sure it is temporary and cannot see it being anywhere near as good in the UK.

    Even though when last in the UK I was earning a large salary and even larger commissions and was able to race powerboats, I was never truly happy where I lived (in various places – and Claire knows the last place I lived) until I moved here.

    Whilst there are a number of people who are moving back to the UK, because they cannot find work here and the government wont support them like in the UK, there are many more who, although struggling due to the exchange rate and the attitude of the banks, would not return either.

    I was lucky in that I had no problems buying my house (I bought a 40 year old apartment) as did everyone I know round here. I dont know of anyone personally who has suffered in the same way as many on this forum, although I do know third hand of people. (especially under LRAU)

    The point is there are many who have suffered and for those who have done I have nothing but heartfelt sympathy that their trust has been betrayed by the people they bought from (vendors, developers, estate agents and lawyers) – but whether you choose to believe it or not, that is the minority.

    Spain is a great place and hopefully once you all get your problems sorted out, you may come to actually love the place

    One final word of advice – LEARN SPANISH, you will be rewarded with some of the most trustworthy friends and people who genuinely care for you that I have ever experienced and as I have travelled extensively in the world, that is some comparison. But learn Spanish and your life will improve greatly

    best of luck

    Vince

  • #92419
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    When the market gets so low it will only go one way….. back up ….eventually.

  • #92421
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @vbtudor wrote:

    these are for North Costa Blanca and ONLY in Oliva and round about. I cannot speak for places such as Denia, Pedreguer, Pego, Javea, etc as I do not live there nor do I keep in touch with prices there. But where I live (Piles – close to Oliva) and Oliva itself these prices are creeping in – not in huge amounts but certainly a year ago it was impossible to find properties anywhere near these prices

    Vince

    Hi Vince,

    thank you for the nice explanation.

    Why did you prefer Piles-Oliva as compared to Denia-JAvea? Is the microclimate better? Was is less over-built?

  • #92422
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Flossmichael

    I chose the area because I looked at Javea/Denia but really thought it was over British and not very Spanish (though I remember Javea from when I was here in 1986 and it was a lovely little fishing town then)

    THis area, when I first came here, had little or no traffic, more parking than cars (much more) loads of bars in relation to the population (I believe it is one bar for every 167 residents) and was very Spanish.

    I chose Piles over Oliva because it is so much smaller, the people were really friendly here and seemed to be stuck in a time warp from the 60´s (it hasnt changed a huge amount since)

    I live 200M from the beach in a 120M apartment which I have opened out – my front room is as large as many apartments they are building and the apartment has really high ceilings, is very light and airy and I fell in love with it when I first saw it. The price wasnt bad either (9.5M ptas or about €57,000 euros.)

    I believe I made the right choice even though I saw the best part of 50 properties (lots of rubbish) and this one really needed a vision as it was loads of rooms when I bought it with nearly a third of the place corridors – really. I recovered about 25M of space just by knocking down irrelevant walls and opening two rooms into one.

    Still love the place and love the town, though the mentality is very parochial, I guess thats also its charm

    Compared to Oliva it is a world apart

    Hope that helps

    Vince

  • #92424
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    What I am saying is that things are not continuing downward, there is a degree of bounce back, there is a future, and possibly a long road to travel, and possibly a slow road to recovery, but it starts somewhere, and I think that is here and now.

    Chris, I am not sure if you saw the latest BBVA prediction: 10% decrease in 2009 and 12% in 2010. So buying anytime before JAnuary 2011 seems to be a mistake.

    Mr. MAyte Ledo states that the adjustment of prices is incomplete.

    Main reason: “En la actualidad España cuenta con un stock de 1.200.000 viviendas y la entidad estima que se podrían rozar 1.500.00.”

    “El ajuste del sector inmobiliario español está todavía por llegar. La caída de precios estimada por el BBVA se sitúa en el 10% para este año y en el 12% durante el próximo ejercicio. En total, la caída acumulada desde los máximos se estima que rondará el 30%, coincidiendo con las previsiones de otras entidades como Citigroup. El banco destaca además que la subida de los precios reales ha sido más importante en este ciclo que en cualquier otro por lo que la magnitud de la caída debería estar en relación con la de la subida, algo que todavía no se ha producido, de ahí que el ajuste aún no esté completo, se necesita un ajuste adicional.

    “Los ajustes de precios y de actividad todavía están incompletos en España”, ha explicado hoy Mayte Ledo,”

    http://www.cotizalia.com/cache/2009/06/02/noticias_22_precios_vivienda_caeran_segun.html

  • #92425
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Long standing members have very valued points in almost everything they say regarding the problems Spain have inflicted on others and in turn themselves.
    In the U.K we are seeing that problems with corruption is by no means isolated as its within the very sector of our own government . Do we start at the top down or the bottom up
    Is it worse in the U.K/Spain Dubai/ Libya/South Africa. Think its down to what point you start at and what some will get away with given half a chance when the pure evil of greed takes hold.
    There are some that appear to continue talking the market down that may be for self motivated reasons thinking a bargain may appear if they try hard enough and perhaps some are trying to talk the market again perhaps to make them feel better.( do both have their heads in the sand)
    Some are just totally negative even though they dont appear live or have property anywhere near Spain and just spend the odd holiday there. Read enough papers and then are experts rather like most of us in reality. What we read is what we believe.
    Good on them all as thats what an open forum is about.
    Some are clearly dreadfully hurt, rightly so. They have gained consolation and friends on the forums and fear that if the fight for justice stops or they slant their views they will lose them . Time moves on and there appears that one poster and then another is starting to buy so what is the future of the forums if they dont move with the times.
    REALITY IS
    Those in the U.K waiting for the drop in some areas in Spain may have to wait a long time the exchange rates on a 500.000 Euro property over the past few months is one point. This is a case of what right for one is another’s poison.
    20/30% swing in exchange rates in favour of the £1 and everyone’s predictions are wrong
    How many will realize to late that a couple of months back may have been the buy time for the U.K Equity market. Mortgage approvals in the U.K are rising, is this the spring effect or will history tell us that was the turning point (it takes someone very special to know the answer unless they have a crystal ball)
    Playing the waiting game will be like the stock markets jumping in and out at right or wrong time trying to second guess something even the real so called experts get wrong almost everyday. Fact most will follow the sheep while the fox has got away with the profits having been crying wolf all along.
    Banks will not dump quality, only to those with links and of course the brown paper bag for many transactions. They will of course be very keen on moving property in poor areas that were very overvalued by developers and Brits in the main purchasing them to make money in an ever increasing market (or so they thought)
    Rubbish will be rubbish in any area or property anywhere in the world. Even at 1.40 exchange again these properties will never sell for anything like the prices paid for tiny holiday apartments for a very long time and many will be demolished.
    Those that didn’t have a bank guarantee will probably lose their money and each will have to decide if in the long terms its better to complete or walk.
    What they paid/when/where and will someone wish to buy there for other reasons than trying to make a quick buck in the future.
    Those with bank guarantees will have to wait until the market returns as paying out on what may be negative equity on a massive scale is not going to be the game they will play. They will however use every delaying tactic the law allows..Who can blame them and what did people really expect from Banks.
    Properties able to sustain a permanent residence in good areas will get the price they want and likely very shortly .Probably reasonable movement by year end with the slack in less desirable properties taking several years.
    The flight to quality once started will act as an ignition by 100.00s of thousands that are desperate to get out of the U.K with only the exchange rates and the slower market here have prevented them moving.
    Those that wish to move abroad will continue with Spain and in particular to areas that appear to be dealing with corruption issues first.
    Memories are very short and its great that forums like this carry on pointing to past issues so helping new buyers avoid some of the pitfalls.
    However the point is that being singled out as being sour grapes and living in the past will be evident if those that view the forums only see that point of a view…
    Simple fact is that people often don’t listen because they think they know best and wont be caught out like idiots before them.(Clever Dicks is the term)
    Sadly those that have been caught are much the same as the poor souls that have lost almost everything in issues like when Bank shares crashed while others in the game profited by obscene levels receiving bonuses for being involved corruption and failings little better that the scum that stole from many in the Spanish gold rush.
    No better at all as they hid behind the very fabric of what we have been bought up ,to trust with our investments/pensions and future.
    Though this posting swings from side to another it perhaps shows that what is said or stated at times is just to close to call

    Good Agents
    A. Corruption sorted ?( That’s what will be the sales blab anyway)
    B. The place people want to OWN property (Good location)
    C Want to get out of the U.K ( With the money while those without come in)
    D. The odd very good buy.( Not for the fence sitter as it will be gone)
    C. Where else to put your money ?

    Any sales person worth is salt will realize the perfect sunny day is nearer than the perfect storm of the past.
    Bad agents ? Well lets says it hoped that the solicitors and the legal system do a damn site better job next time around.
    FACT is that the majority are very happy indeed in both buying and or moving to Spain

  • #92426
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Although 1.5 million empty apartments (estimated of course – actual numbers are impossible to ascertain) sounds a lot, when you consider that interest to purchase will come via countries ranging from the UK to Russia, and also when you consider that the demographic population is changing fast with an explosion of single young people, these surplus properties will quickly disappear. This is a credit crunch. The supply chains are intact. Once banks start lending again, which they must do to make a profit, demand will quickly restore to normality. These are golden times. There are bargains to be had for the brave. And yes, of course Estate Agents talk the market up. They are passionate about their trade. To do otherwise would be silly. At it’s generic level, Spain is a fantastic place to live. There aren’t many places around the World that provides such a beautiful environment, guaranteed weather, safety, history etc. And it’s true; if you can be bothered to learn the language, the Spanish will have oodles of respect for you.

    This Forum is intellectual and interesting but sometimes a little gloomy, and occasionally dominated by those who have had a bad experience. I understand that, as do all forum users, and that’s fine. After all, the World is big enough for us all.

  • #92427
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Observer, welcome to SPI. Just to pick up on a couple of your points….

    Some are just totally negative even though they dont appear live or have property anywhere near Spain and just spend the odd holiday there.

    I´m probably one of those you are placing in that category. The fact is that I am actively looking to purchase hence me studying the market.

    It is an open forum, you are of course perfectly entitled to dismiss my observations as “totally negative”. I prefer the term realistic. So be it. What I, and those others who are suggesting that prices still have some way to fall, have done however is back up my statements with explanations (affordability, over-supply, induces still falling, high and rising unemployment, unrealistic asking prices, etc).

    What I have singularly failed to see from any of those predicting that the Spanish property market has hit bottom is a single shred of evidence to back up what they are saying. Yes you can cite a slightly less worse sterling exchange rate (Irrelevant to me as I live in NL) or an improvement in world equity markets over the last few months (That is where my money has been sitting. I´ve done a lot better there than leaving it in a bank or, heaven forbid, buying a Spanish property).

    There are some that appear to continue talking the market down that may be for self motivated reasons

    There are many, many more trying to talk the market up. As I highlighted in this thread:
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4269
    there has been a steady stream of ´experts´ saying that the market has hit bottom/will rise further for the last three years.

    Most of those people certainly do have vested interests in talking the market up. I can´t speak for others but I certainly have no vested interest in talking the market down. Further I´m very much aware that as an individual, posting on an internet forum, anything I post is of no consequence to the market.

    All I´m looking for is value. There are some around that represent this. In amongst those I´ll include Hillbilly´s that started this thread. Even then he is having trouble selling. Most people are however still asking/expecting way too much for their properties.

  • #92428
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    well some interesting points made.

    maximus freely admits agents talk the market up, that’s not suprising, but by nature not the reality. For those who have been cheated, that is indeed the reality, and they can only tell their facts as they happen to them. If their case sounds gloomy, that’s because for them it is. I think all most people want is not ‘talking the market up’ or ‘talking the market down’, just real life facts from those who can help others avoid the pitfalls by sharing their experience, and real life facts from those who are happy with their lot and again can provide useful info’ on their good experience.

    I think most realise that if you are happy with your situation, you don’t tend to talk on forums like this so much, because you don’t want or need help or support to get through a grim time, so the forum is bound to look biased towards those with problems. Having said that though, you don’t have to look very far to find posts from those providing balance who are saying ” Look we know it’s bad for some, but for us it’s been really good, and we are very pleased we made the move, and wouldn’t have it any other way”.

    I think the good and bad is well reported now for all to see, IF they want to see it?

  • #92429
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    brianc_li

    I think you are about right. Those with an interest in ‘talking the market up’ are never going to see it like this though.

  • #92430
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
    Observer wrote:
    Long standing members have very valued points in almost everything they say regarding the problems Spain have inflicted on others and in turn themselves.

    FACT is that the majority are very happy indeed in both buying and or moving to Spain

    Robfuengirola, you changed your forum name, but you still do not have a clue. At least try to be more polite as “Observer”.

  • #92431
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I see nothing impolite about observers posting !

    What I do sense is a slight panic in those regular posters with an axe to grind because the level of optimism, and positive postings, are on the increase. I’m not really sure why the agents get the stick. They’re only showing purchasers the properties. The fault lies more with the legal system surely?

  • #92433
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    Come on Hillybilly…!

    We have gone off on various tangents on this thread now.

    Tell us you have found a BUYER!

    You have a great property, we all agree, extremely well presented and located for anyone wanting that area of Spain.

    Let’s hear about a SALE!!

  • #92436
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    maximus

    Oh come on, I hope you are joking??

    If you are not sure why agents get the stick, you really haven’t looked (or chosen not to?) at the countless posts on dodgy agents on this and the other main forum, some of the worst being UK based. Like developers and lawyers in Spain, not all bad by any means, and tarring all with the brush is just stupid, but the evidence on this forum alone paints a pretty poor picture, and one that the good guys would i’m sure like to see change.

    If you want to try and talk up the market, and not accept the problems, that’s up to you. I think most will see through it.

  • #92437
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yep – ok fair comment.

    I withdraw my last comments… 😉

  • #92440
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @maximus wrote:

    What I do sense is a slight panic

    Slight panic? 😀

    The only people who can feel panic are firstly the sellers and secondly the agents.

    The buyers were “panickly” buying during the boom days, now they can happily wait.

  • #92446
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Brian _li
    Thank you.
    It appears that even the slightest mention of any upturn is not welcome by a few which is very understandable.
    Perhaps I need to clarify. Out of the 1.5 million unsold properties there will be a small percentage( a handful)in the bigger picture being in the right location at the right price and at the right exchange rate.
    Buy and in the medium to long term you will win.
    I can only put forward observations based on one sector in Spain and that’s the Costa del Sol.
    Look for areas that have everything going for it often being the sought after areas before the crash. This is not rocket science its just when to make the call.
    How does the value stack up against less desirable areas which were achieving similar prices in the peak. That will be the big losers and price falls we will here about. It will be averaged out of course as some will end up with worthless properties or in real value what they should have paid at the time.
    In those areas which are caught up in the generalisation of how far the market may fall say for instance 40% /50% will need to dream on.
    I am not talking about the £99 trips here just doing some homework because as we know its not what you sell for its what you buy for and in property its location ,location ,location. Always has been always will be
    As with your situation ( well done) you perhaps can see where I am coming from.
    Tend to agree with Mr McCarthy and some may well take heed in what he is saying. (I am not an agent)!
    Who is right Who is Wrong. Does it matter ?
    Who is looking to buy property and who has bought property. Does it matter?
    Who doesn’t have property in Spain and who would never buy in Spain. Does it matter.
    Collectively perhaps people should be able to put forward views, both positive and negative. Help and advice both positive and negative.
    Perhaps the one up man ship plays a part but what can this really achieve in what is supposed to be an Insight into The Spanish Property Market. ALL SECTORS.
    As someone has just posted Room For All.
    Hopefully I have posted enough negatives within this post to keep everyone happy.
    As the last poster has summed it perfectly. Buyers can wait?
    Sellers of prime located property can wait. Find the one that cant or it will pass by in a wink.
    Reality most that are thinking of buying including posters or just read the forums and media news will not buy when the time is right.
    By then it will be history.
    .

  • #92452
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Observer,

    I don´t think anyone, even I, would disagree with the hypotheses that places in good locations will hold their values better and sell faster than the in less desirable spots.

    Indeed I would also concur with your statement

    Buy and in the medium to long term you will win

    , assuming by “medium to long term” you mean 5 years plus.

    Where (I think) we part company is that, for all the reasons I have outlined in previous posts, I feel that this correction still has some way to go. To me this will impact on the price of all properties be they in good locations or bad. That is simple market economics.

    For me therefore as a “short term” purchaser (Within the next 24 months) it makes perfect sense to sit on the sidelines and watch things develop.

    What will entice me to buy sooner rather than later is to see the property I want, in the area I want, at a price I consider good value. In the particular area (of the CDS) I am looking at, estate agents window prices have hardly dropped at all from their 2007 prices. There are a few reasonably valued properties around but none, as yet, have matched my criteria.

    At last cracks in this facade are starting to appear. Only the other day I got a list of six properties from one agent whose prices had been dropped around 20%. Still not enough to my mind but heading in the right direction.

    You do have a point, by holding out I may be missing the bottom of the market. Who really knows? What I am taking my guidance from are the best available figures. To me these are the price/earnings ratios, the Tinsa index and the general economy readings. All of these are telling me and any other potential purchaser who cares to seek them out to sit on our money. Frankly I´d rather trust those figures than any ´experts´ telling me that the market has bottomed.

  • #92458
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Brian_li
    Sadly people see .Prices fell by 20% and are going to fall by another 40%and don’t allow that this may not apply to all areas.
    How can Spain ever have a real value to predict falls when the black money is so evident Every deal is different .Areas are different. Exchange rates are a factor that even if you say prices will drop by 20% in the next year it could be wiped out by this one single factor.
    Many cant declare what they paid so they have a possible problem when they sell.
    Interesting. I think we both clearly see where each other are coming from.
    Your are clearly doing your figures but figures will always be historical and based on these figures predications are made. When your figures match the returns of investment which we should all follow you may well have missed the boat .I am talking capital growth. When to jump ? That’s one we would all want answered but by then you are one of the sheep.
    Life are full of gambles and often gut feelings after all research is done are where money is made or indeed lost.
    Would I generally buy in Spain now ? Generally I would say no and I would tell others not to do so. Unless they were very clued up, specific in an area and had a trusted agent on the ground finding me that deal.
    IF the exchange rate was favourable then on a 3 to 5 years I would take the punt.10 Years very good.
    Clearly the time is not right for you to buy and indeed your figures may be right. The problem I have are these figures are so often wrong .
    This government could be forced to call an election next month and Mr Browns Euro vision may very well effect things either way.
    The way I look at it. If you have bought then make the most of it. If your thinking of buying like I see one member just has after much homework(well done) If you playing the waiting game then fine None of us will know who is right now as it will all be history a year from now.
    Good luck whatever people decide and IF you buy then take heed of all the warnings posted on the forums as while they may or may not represent a small majority never think it wont be you.
    P.S by the time is gets to the window display its often much to late.
    Often thats for chancers but I have the feeling you know that already.

  • #92459
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I spent last weekend back in the UK and attended a family wedding.

    I was introduced to many guests (who I have never met before) by my niece saying this is my uncle from Spain.

    I lost count of the amount of people who immediatly turned the conversation to Spanish property. Despite not knowing I am an agent, I was astounded at the amount of people who were contemplating buying in the near future.

    When I admitted I was a property agent, people seemed to whisk me off to a nearby table to interrogate me about which areas to buy and what prices should they be looking for.

    I found myself advising them to hold off for a few months as prices are still dropping and the Pound seems to be getting stronger against the Euro. This advice seemed to dissapoint most and I felt that there was a general feeling it was being disregarded which was a shame.

    The majority of people I spoke to were from the grooms side, they were quite well-off in the main and didn’t seem to be the types who would ignore cautious advice.

    After what seemed like hours of the same conversation I snook off down the road to a nice village pub (alone) only to overhear a conversation between a dentist and his friend about property investment in Spain!!!!

    I was very pleased to return home on Sunday evening where thankfully I have noticed no-one wants to talk about property.

  • #92464
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    You lucky sod! You got the good weather!! I am off to a wedding tomorrow and the forecast is just pants!!! I wont be mentioning what I do at all, want a rest!! 😀

  • #92470
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Observer

    Interesting. I think we both clearly see where each other are coming from.

    Indeed!

    The whole issue of exchange rates is irrelevant to me as I live in the euro zone.

    I couldn´t agree more with you about the inaccuracy of the figures. The amount of black money that was (is) circulating around makes the official ones laughable. Of the various price indices around Tinsa seems to be the best regarded. Even then I believe it is lagging the market by some 6-12 months.

    In the end all I can do is be aware of what is happening and make a judgement call. In my case I don´t now think I´ll buy anything in the next year but if the right place comes up that may change.

  • #92478
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    No just either extremely optimistic or very deluded.
    This crash will run for many years.

    I agree the crash and its effects will have its impact over a number of years yes, but the bottom of the market is the bottom of the market, is it now?

    Month on month this year, an agency I know is reporting increasing clients and sales against the last 12 months, that people are returning, not in great numbers but significant enough I would venture.

    That being 51 clients last month. Their traffic is building up, from its low base of about 10 clients in a month, so whilst the effect of the crash will go and go, I believe the low point in terms of traffic has been hit, and that this is not a dead cat bounce – if that is the right expression.

    People seem to totally unaware that the world has fundamentally changed. There will be no return to easy credit for many years – until the massive over leveraging is paid back down. This is everywhere, nations, companies and people have too much debt. No more money can be invented by banks or governments to return large part of the worlds GDP that was produced by ever increasing debt. There is more debt (in relation to GDP) in the world than at any point since 1929 and its now Toxic – nobody wants to buy it.

    People talk about a return to normal; this IS normal and will be for the next 5 years or so. The world will be paying back debt – in that situation assets will keep falling in value and the economy will drag along the bottom. In the UK and around the world, taxes will have to jump.

    The crash hasn’t bottomed, its stop falling off a cliff. Recessions follow a similar pattern and this is the mother of all recession. Bad news will keep coming over the next two years.

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    @goodstich44 wrote:
    Chris
    Regarding overbuilds etc, I think Katy hit the nail on the head when she talked about Miami and other places having been concreted over and it didn’t stop them, and I don’t think it is going to stop this coast either.

    40 years ago Marbella was a little fishing village, 10 years from now it will have expanded again and again, and it won’t stop. People want to be here, take a look a Boothy who is on another thread “Bought at last” and bought in an area that is often severely criticised for being overbuilt and concreted over.

    However, if you go to Florida property costs 10% of prices in Spain. $20,000 for huge houses. Prices in Spain,for what it offers, are too high.

    @Claire wrote:

    When the market gets so low it will only go one way….. back up ….eventually.

    Again, Florida is an example of how low it can go. Spain’s prices today are very high for all the problems. France offers far more for a little extra.

  • #92480
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Peterhun

    People talk about a return to normal; this IS normal and will be for the next 5 years or so. The world will be paying back debt – in that situation assets will keep falling in value and the economy will drag along the bottom.

    So….how do you explain that Uk House prices rose by 2.6%, as reported by the Halifax this morning?

    I think confidence is returning fast.

  • #92481
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @maximus wrote:

    Peterhun

    People talk about a return to normal; this IS normal and will be for the next 5 years or so. The world will be paying back debt – in that situation assets will keep falling in value and the economy will drag along the bottom.

    So….how do you explain that Uk House prices rose by 2.6%, as reported by the Halifax this morning?

    I think confidence is returning fast.

    Oh, and that makes up for the 18months of falls and the further falls that will happen in the rest of the year? Its Spring, remember; people buy property in Spring. Throughout the last crash prices rose every spring.

    When there is an annual increase in house prices their will have been a return of confidence. Banks will not lend, this year or the next.

    No lending, no price increases. Occasion monthly rises will happen in a crash, but there is a very limited number of cash buyers who will soon be sucked down.

  • #92483
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    We have been actively looking for around 3 months in Surrey/Dorset I don’t care what the media and “experts” state the prices haven’t gone down. Properties are selling too, some have sold before we had the opportinity to view.

  • #92484
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @maximus wrote:

    Peterhun

    People talk about a return to normal; this IS normal and will be for the next 5 years or so. The world will be paying back debt – in that situation assets will keep falling in value and the economy will drag along the bottom.

    So….how do you explain that Uk House prices rose by 2.6%, as reported by the Halifax this morning?

    I think confidence is returning fast.

    I do not think there is any confidence returning.

    Just that some people might have gotten tired of waiting and they might have found the right property.
    I just had an offer accepted at 28% below the 2007 price at 50 metres from my
    children school (and less than 600 metres from the Grammar School they are likely to attend in 6 years from now). I pay cash so no mortgage involved.
    I could have waited another year but there is no guarantee that a similar property would have appeared on the market. Like me there are many, life does not stand still.

    Now, a holiday home is a completely different story, I have all the time in the world to wait for one at the right price in the right place.

  • #92485
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The crash hasn’t bottomed, its stop falling off a cliff. Recessions follow a similar pattern and this is the mother of all recession. Bad news will keep coming over the next two years.

    Peterhun, couldn´t agree more. I don´t think many people appreciate just how nasty this downturn is. One uptick in the UK housing market does not signal the end of the worst global downturn in 80 years.

    It looks like a full blown depression may have been avoided but there are still at least a couple of very tough years ahead.

  • #92582
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Corredores seem to be like buses. I have ended up with 2 of them. The first one I sought and appointed myself and then a couple of days ago another corredor appeared at my door, offering his services. He wanted 2% commission but I negotiated him down to 1.5% to match the other guy. 2 heads being better than one methinks.
    And tomorrow another Spanish couple are coming to view the house (not via the corredor, but just through having seen the for sale sign. They actually came to view the house today but hadn’t bothered to call first 🙄 and I was out at work…

  • #92584
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good Luck Hillybilly! 🙂 It will sell eventually. Just waiting for the right people/person to pitch up.

  • #92652
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    2 more viewings to date, making 6 in total in 11 weeks.

    A couple came to view last Friday and seemed very enthusiastic although they hadn’t realised the house only had 2 bedrooms 🙄 (their daughters are 18 and 21…time to leave home I say 😉 ). They were making plans for extending the house…

    And last night a young man (accompanied by his mother, girlfriend and sister) came to view. He’s only 20 and his girlfriend looked about 12 😉 so I’m guessing Mummy & Daddy may be helping out as he’s presently still living “at home”. He’d called me the day before to ask when he could come to view and I said 6pm onwards, the following day. He said he’d call the next day to agree a time…no call came….at 7.30pm I gave up sitting immobile in a tidy house and started to cook dinner. Then the doorbell rang. Family group waiting expectantly outside, so asked them to wait a moment while I hurriedly cleared the kitchen (again), put the dog outside and found (what a moment!) a plague of flying ants in the shed. Deployed weapon of ant mass destruction and ushered Jesús and his entourage in…

    These last 2 viewers came as a result of having seen the for sale sign on the house.

    I have put more advertising flyers up around town, asked a good mate who works in a bar in town to spread the word (with the promise of “something in it” for him if he finds me a buyer) and also just taken out a paid-for listing on the “thinkspain” internet property portal (a one-off fee of 95€ until the property sells which seems good value).

  • #92674
    Profile photo of marios
    marios
    Participant

    Hillybilly,take a look at this posters response to advertising there place

    Cheers Col .To be honest I have done what is a cut priced deal but the thing that amazes me is I’ve got another chap chomping at the bit for the deal to fall through………..both parties have taken the time at their own expense to fly to Andalucia to see the house.

    Does make you wonder what the agents are up to over there……….I advertised the house on a car forum here for flips sake and phone never stopped…..baffling

  • #92675
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I wouldn’t pay to put on any of the sites. It is impossible to know if anyone has sold much through them unless there is feedback from a real person. I advertised an apartment a couple of years ago (good price) most of the replies were from internet scams. Only had one who could be genuine and he didn’t turn up.

    I also know someone who advertised in the local newspaper and put a reduced price and try an offer, not one call. I would stick with the leafleting.

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