Developer getting his come-uppance?

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This topic contains 40 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 9 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #52809
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    An Alicante constructor is in hospital after suffering what’s being described as a ‘brutal beating’ with baseball bats.
    Police have arrested three suspects, all Spaniards, who they believe may have assaulted him as part of a revenge attack.

    Police say robbery does not appear to be the motive.
    Come on Mr. Plod, try one more guess…. 💡

  • #70942
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    Ha Ha Ha Ha……The Spanish aren´t used to queing, bet they pushed in front of loads of Brits 😆

  • #70972
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    This is what happens when the law does not work. While I am not for violence, but if this is the way you can get your satisfaction than we want want a clean fight by both blue and red corner.

    The developer is lucky that Acid has not been thrown on his family specially the female members.

  • #71904
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    Hello moderator! Assume guilty before trial? Am I reading this correctly. We approve of physical violence and agree with acid spraying the family!?
    Moderator please moderate.

  • #71905
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    bobsmith.
    Please read it again, no where I am enticing violence. All I am saying if the law does not work and peoples life saving/dreams are taken away.

    This will happen.

  • #71906
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    If this kind of thing happens, then it is a warning sign that the whole Spanish Property Industry needs to learn from.

    If the Spanish authorities continue to turn a blind eye to crooked developers and agents, this practice will become more common-place.

    Nobody in their right mind condones violence, but some people are quite literally out of their minds with worry and loss of thousands of their hard earned cash. In a similar situation where you have lost everything you owned, the though would have to cross our minds to take these people to task.

    I am an estate agent here in Spain and there is no excuse for putting a clients money in jepardy. nor is there any need to, there are hundreds of good legal developments here.

    So if I hear of one of my competitors getting his come-uppence, due to negligence and greed I have no sympathy at all.

    Agents and developers should remember that todays client is tomorrows neighbour!

  • #71909
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    “The developer is lucky that Acid has not been thrown on his family specially the female members”

    Doesn’t sound as though you would mind if he had.

    You are assuming dirty deeds and unless I’m ill informed that is just an assumption.

    Also “caveat emptor” is a useful phrase to look up:

    “The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying.”

  • #71910
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    That´s always assuming they have not been lied to and deceived by the perveyor of the goods in question bobsmith!

    If the goods don´t do the job or simply fail to materialise, then that contravenes the “sale of goods act” or in my vocabulary fraud

    That´s why people need help bobsmith, there has to be consumer protection! Where there is no protection – as in the Spanish Property market, then consumers take things into their own hands.

    Maybe in the case of this thread the developer could be innocent!! though the term developer and innocent must be an oxymoron! If so then he should persue the case against the attackers. However there are very few people who resort to violence in these instances unless a serious breakdown has occured.

    Caveat Emptor “buyer beware” – of course this is only applicable when goods and services are offered without implied guarantee of quality or condition.

    In the case of Spanish property there is a plethora of documents relating to quality of materials, bank and builders guarantees and ON TIME DELIVERY! Therefore the buyer is well aware of what is offered and implied, so when the builder fails to deliver it!!!

    Simply do what you promise, that´s all people ask!

  • #71911
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    I am afraid your assumption is incorrect. “Caveat emptor” is at an early stage of purchase and besides it there is “Good faith”

    How many people on the forum went through the correct procedure when buying and are still facing problems.

    The fact is if some one is hell bent on cheating and is down right dishonest and had fleeced you of your life saving and has left ther buyer destitute. What has he/she got to lose any further.

    I think the Courts will find this as crime of passion.

  • #71912
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    I think perhaps “caveat emptor” applies particulalry assuming they have been lied to paddy!

    Think it continues right through to the completion as well shakeel!

    Still nice to see you all believe in the court system as redress, for the developer at least.

  • #71913
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    bobsmith – you used the term in your earlier post implying that the vendor is not responsible for shoddy goods. This is not the case, the buyer is aware of sharp practice but should not expect it to occur in a sophisticated democracy like Spain. Buyer beware can only legally stand up if it is printed or said by the vendor, it is certainly not on any developers literatue, they would never sell a unit if it was. neither does the developer ever verbally say it for the same reasons.

    The simple fact is the term is no longer a useable phrase in today´s commerce. It is superceeded by caveat venditor increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for “let the seller beware”) has become more prevalent. Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise. One such warranty is the implied warranty of merchantability. If a person buys soap, for example, there is an implied warranty that it will clean.

    Now the ownes is on the seller not the buyer to beware . quite right too!

  • #71922
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    You make a lot of assumptions. I don’t believe I implied the vendor is not responsible for shoddy goods at all.

    Sharp practice-yes
    Sophisticated democracy-not so sure! They keep repeating the same mistakes e.g. mayor of Marbella.

    Perhaps part of the problem is that the Spanish seem to be tolerant of a little fraud. Black money seems to leave a lot of people reluctant to use the court system.

    Take you point though about caveat venditor.

    I see the scenario a bit like stepping on to pedestrian crossing without looking, knowing the oncoming driver is likely to be speeding and out of control. Legally you have a very good case if you survive the experience!

    Commonsense would suggest to me that the one letting go of the cash needs to be more causios than the one receiving.

    Back to the real point, do we want people taking the law into their own hands. We’ve assumed guilt, but one day it could be fraud the next an acid attack on an agent because the property market hasn’t performed to the buyer’s expectations?

  • #71924
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    “Perhaps part of the problem is that the Spanish seem to be tolerant of a little fraud. Black money seems to leave a lot of people reluctant to use the court system.”

    Black money is purely a loophole to save the vendor and the buyer tax. It will continue as long as there are high costs in property transfer tax. It´s nothing sinister just a loophole. The same thing can happen in the UK to get around stamp duty, by paying cash for carpets, curtains etc to bring the price under the stamp duty thresshold. It just saves money.

    Back to the point as you said bobsmith, I did say that no-one in their right mind can condone violence. Like wars, this only happens when communications, diplomacy breakdown. Usually from the builders end when they have a problem, the spanish tend to hide from customer service, they don´t see it as an opportunity to keep the client informed, they see it more of an obstacle to be avoided.

    Client´s are often at fault, they tend to threaten legal action in an unpleasant way, the Spanish are not use to this aggressive behaviour, so in their Mediterranean way they become ingnorant and unhelpful . the whole thing is a disaster waiting to happen.

    The only solution is for the Brits to change their attitude to that of the country they are buying in, it´s only right to do so. After all if you are going to live in Spain you will need to change your attitude totally or “Bust a blood vessel”

  • #71925
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    paddy wrote

    ‘Client´s are often at fault, they tend to threaten legal action in an unpleasant way, the Spanish are not use to this aggressive behaviour, so in their Mediterranean way they become ingnorant and unhelpful . the whole thing is a disaster waiting to happen. ‘

    ……ah, so that’s where we went wrong, i realise now i should have written a polite letter to Aifos, saying ”i’m sorry to bother you, but my apartment was not only three and half years late being built, but it only ended up just over half contract size. Is there any way you could see yourself offering a discount, or perphaps even letting me have my deposit back with interest and compensation for holding up my finances for the last five years?”.

    ……..if only i’d known that was the way to get my money back.

  • #71926
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    goodstich44,
    While, I agree to certain extent about the Spanish as Paddy stated. Of course when it suits them theyy can be as aggresive and the Burro mentality comes out.

    Its not a question of aggressive/polite, all businesses have certain protocols and they must be met. You dont have to be polite or aggressive to know that a contract and it terms are to be adhered too.

  • #71929
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    Goodstich44 – You hit the nail on the head. One does begin by putting their complaint in writing first. It´s a good way to start don´t you think?

    If you do not get satisfaction you write again with a recorded delivery. If still no response you send a letter through your lawyer after providing him with your previous letters.

    It´s no different than in the UK. Always keep a written record and never use a phone, unless you record the calls.

    Complaining is a process of events which if done correctly over time provides perfect systematic evidence for the Judges to pronounce a decision on.

    If you complicate it with a slanging match you will jepardise a case.

  • #71930
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    goodstich44, 3 1/2 years sounds a long time. Did you begin your legal proceedings after the builder exceeded their contract date?

  • #71934
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    Paddy

    Black money is purely a loophole to save the vendor and the buyer tax.

    Definition of a loophole

    an ambiguity (especially one in the text of a law or contract) that makes it possible to evade a difficulty or obligation

    Since when was fraud a loophole/ Black money may be considered normal practise in Spain but it is in no way a loophole – nor is it legal. And the only person really benefiting is the seller – the buyer may well be stuck in years to come paying someone else’s tax bill because he took advantage of this “Loophole”

    I would be very careful about advising people down this road as it is Fraud by any other name.

    By the way this isn’t meant as a flame or criticism – just I think your words can easily be misconstrued

    Regards

    Vince

  • #71935
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    I agree, “just a loophole” is like the mayor/mayors of Marbellas’ “just a misunderstanding”.

  • #71936
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    Paddy

    no, we unfortunately got very bad advice from our lawyer at the time, we were advised to just hang on and wait. We got caught up in the Agent/lawyer thing, so were strung along for some time, add this to the rumour that the developer would probably go bust if we all pulled out, and the agent saying ‘why are we concerned, the capital gain will far outstrip any waiting time’…….and much time had gone by!

    Yes, we put our trust in the wrong people, the UK agents, the UK lawyers, the first Spanish lawyers and most of all the developers, and got stung for it. We were given bad advice by so many for such a long time, it was hard to believe they were all in on it. After several questions from the lawyer at the time, asking us why we thought his advice was wrong, we found sites such as this, and had our fears confirmed.

    We have now changed to what we believe to be a good Spanish lawyer, (who has already had success against the developer we are up against.)
    and intend doing whatever it takes to get our 30% deposit back with interest and compensation. We at least feel now we are on the right track. We know we are in the right, so it should be just a matter of time before the oh-so-slow system grants us justice. That is my point, as i have said many times on here, why on earth should we have to go to court over an apartment built three and a half years late and not much more than half contract size? In a decent system, regulation should have been able to sort that out, long before a court situation, but not in Spain it seems?

  • #71940
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    @Paddy wrote:

    Client´s are often at fault, they tend to threaten legal action in an unpleasant way…

    Many of us on this forum have had to ‘threaten’ legal action via our lawyers, & surely there shouldn’t be anything ‘pleasant’ about this action. So many of us have been misled & lied to for years before we were able to discover the reality of the situation we were/are in. I certainly wouldn’t want a lawyer who is tip-toeing around afraid of upsetting the person/developer I am sueing.

  • #71941
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    @Paddy wrote:

    If you do not get satisfaction you write again with a recorded delivery. If still no response you send a letter through your lawyer after providing him with your previous letters.

    It´s no different than in the UK……If you complicate it with a slanging match you will jepardise a case.

    The developer I bought through had no problems in accepting letters from my initial lawyer but as soon as I changed lawyers he refused to accept any mail, even recorded. This is apparently a common game they play, showing no respect for their ‘enlightened clients’, & then plead ignorance. Serious hard-ball is the only way IMHO but it does not have to become a ‘slanging match’.

  • #71943
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    Suzanne

    quite, as well we know, several agents/lawyers/developers have made a very good? living out of greed, lies and dishonesty, how on earth can they be expected to listen to politeness or any voice of reason? The only thing that makes them listen is when their ill-gotten gains are threatened in some way, by someone who has the will to take them on from a very firm proffesional legal standpoint, or in rare cases a violent way, out of desperation when all else fails (including the often very poor or slow system), as mentioned earlier in the thread. Any one who thinks this is not the case really is living in cuckoo land.

  • #71945
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    @bobsmith wrote:

    “The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying.”

    Don’t you just love these highfaluting platitudes, phrases and sayings churned out by the so-called ‘business world’.

    And pray tell me Mr. Smith how one is supposed to apply that to an off-plan? Assess the ‘quality’ of the glossy brochure, the model in the sales office and the thin air where your property is supposed to be built?

    When deciding to go with a reputable builder/developer, with a proven track record (who has even won international awards) – without the gift of hindsight how is the average purchaser supposed to know that he has obtained the building licence by giving a ‘bung’ to a corrupt mayor behind closed doors?
    Do you have a saying for that in your book of ‘Business Phrases’?

    I suggest you get out from behind your desk and get out into the ‘Real World’ where you’ll find nothing you learnt (in business school?) applies in practice – especially when dealing unknowingly with a lying, dishonest and totally corrupt section of society who stick a ‘developer’, ‘agent’ or ‘lawyer’ sign on their door.

    And please, yes – we all know there are good ones. Unfortunately most of us on this forum simply didn’t have the good fortune to meet them.

  • #71946
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    @bobsmith wrote:

    Moderator please moderate.

    There is only one thing that needs moderating: the whole property market in Spain – from corrupt lawyers, corrupt agents, corrupt developers, corrupt town hall officials, corrupt notaries, impotent regulatory bodies such as the “Illustrious” (joke) Colegio de Abogados, and a ridiculous legal system that allows a developer who has had someone’s money for three years, hasn’t built anything and has no legal right to do so – but when the judge rules they have to repay the money, they are allowed to appeal!

    Spain, please moderate!!!!

  • #71947
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    Paddy, I’m sure you will reconsider this highly irresponsible quote.

    “Black money is purely a loophole to save the vendor and the buyer tax.”

    Firstly black money is fraud, and to pass it off as merely a loophole is half way to condoning fraudulent acts.
    Secondly, you make it sound like black money reduces the tax bill of the buyer. In actual fact, unless the original buyer decides to commit fraud a second time when (s)he comes to sell the property, (s)he will end up paying tax on the original black money deal, tax that the original seller should have paid.

  • #71948
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    forestfire – If you were in the industry you would be aware of certain goverment websites that advise the lawyer as to the acceptable declared value to put on the title deeds. Even tax office websites have this facility and all lawyers, bank managers etc will access it. The notary will also do so before he processes the title deeds. If the declared value is too low he must alert the tax office to this and the tax office will re-asses the sale price and possibly come on buyer or seeler for the shortfall.

    If your lawyer has done is job properly then most resales will be declared around 65% of actual sales value which is pretty well what the departmental websites suggest.

    When it comes to reselling, the vendor has the same facility and does the same.

    The banks even loan black money and give it to the buyer as part of the mortgage advance in an envelope. It has happened for years and years.

    Whether it is illegal or not it is the way in Spain. If you don´t like it then insist your lawyer doesn´t do it. It will probably rule out 80% of the houses you are looking to buy. It´s your choice, no-one is forcing you to do anything illegal if you don´t want to do it.

  • #71954
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    goodstich44 – Certainly your situation is far more complicated than the average complaint. I understand why you hung on, only to find it was terribly poor advice. I´m sure you will see your money back, as it´s a blatant fraud. Just a pity it takes so long.

    suzanne – yes I agree eventually we have to get tough with these rotten developers and agents. But in the beginning propper legal channels have to be observed in order to give ourselves a chance when it gets to court. Judges have no sympathy for us if we go outside the law.

    However the property industry is getting cleaner and the law is beginning to react faster to these complaints.

    What isn´t happening though is the clean up in the legal profession. It requires more dissatisfied clients to report bad legal representation. This option goes un-addressed because the builders case is the major target. After the dust has settled there is no more fight left in the disgruntled buyers mind to then take on a legal miss-representation case. Pity because this is often where the problem began in the first place!

  • #71956
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    @Paddy wrote:

    goodstich44 – Certainly your situation is far more complicated than the average complaint.

    Afraid not. It is typical of the average complaint. No legal building licence, no Bank Guarantee issued, no Licence of First Occupation, property not built to original spec., gross delay in delivery, etc. etc. etc.

    @Paddy wrote:

    However the property industry is getting cleaner and the law is beginning to react faster to these complaints.

    Afraid not. Developers are still trying to off-load illegal developments to unsuspecting buyers.
    And the law is definitely not reacting with any speed. Six cases that I personally know of recently (clear-cut breaches of contract) have either been postponed several times because the courts are clogged, or the case has been heard only to be postponed for another hearing nine months down the line.
    And don’t let’s forget of course the famous automatic ‘appeal’ – for which there is another long wait.

    And it’s interesting that you hone in on cleaning up the legal profession – what about your own, the Real Estate Agent profession? Isn’t that worth a mention?

    The property industry as a whole has barely started on its path to getting cleaner, and legal recourse is – if anything – getting slower.

  • #71957
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    @Paddy wrote:

    Judges have no sympathy for us if we go outside the law.

    Paddy, I want JUSTICE, not sympathy. Some judges seem to be very sympathetic towards the illegal developers though. Like Goodstich, I too have been waiting for nearly 4 years for either a legal property or my money back. I have already been to Court once and now have to wait another 8 months to go back again. We have done nothing against the Law (unlike the developers) – but we are still being being put on the back burner at every opportunity. 😡

  • #71958
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    @Paddy wrote:

    The banks even loan black money and give it to the buyer as part of the mortgage advance in an envelope. It has happened for years and years.

    Whether it is illegal or not it is the way in Spain. If you don´t like it then insist your lawyer doesn´t do it. It will probably rule out 80% of the houses you are looking to buy. It´s your choice, no-one is forcing you to do anything illegal if you don´t want to do it.

    There are new laws regarding Black Money in Spain. Anyone who knowingly participates in this makes them liable to prosecution. Of course, SOME REAs won’t tell you this or like it, as they have probably arranged to receive their commission in cash when this money changes hands. The days of the notary slipping out of the room to use the loo when this happens will hopefully come to an end.

    Yes, I know it has been going on for many many years, but Notaries are being arrested now too 🙂

  • #71962
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    charlie – The legal process is getting better and is about to get more so now Europe as a whole has become involved through MEP´s forming an action group. Of course it will still take time but the outcome for the victim/buyer is almost certainly going to improve as the old tendency to side with the developer is becoming more risky. The long established old-boys act between the builder the politician and the judge is under intense, and i mean intense scrutiny. Not before time I know but it is a different ball-game now for those operating outside the law.

    I have relatives here in Spain who were sold onto an illegal development in Valencia area – Totally illegal from day one. I put them on to a lawyer way outside their province and persuaded them to get several of their neighbours to combine funds to pay for a Madrid lawyer famous for his dislike of illegal developers. The case never got to court and the developer even liquidated some of his assets to pay back the clients, as he was made well aware it would be a whole lot worse and more costly if it got to court. The whole episode lasted less than 4 months.

    In the case of suzanne and goodstich and others, have you combined to form groups with other buyers on your development using one good out of town lawyer, prefably a big city one, I know they are expensive but not if you all contribute to a fund of joint representation. It´s no use having a lawyer who is based with 100km of the developer for reasons you are all well aware.

  • #71963
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    @Suzanne wrote:

    @Paddy wrote:

    The banks even loan black money and give it to the buyer as part of the mortgage advance in an envelope. It has happened for years and years.

    Whether it is illegal or not it is the way in Spain. If you don´t like it then insist your lawyer doesn´t do it. It will probably rule out 80% of the houses you are looking to buy. It´s your choice, no-one is forcing you to do anything illegal if you don´t want to do it.

    There are new laws regarding Black Money in Spain. Anyone who knowingly participates in this makes them liable to prosecution. Of course, SOME REAs won’t tell you this or like it, as they have probably arranged to receive their commission in cash when this money changes hands. The days of the notary slipping out of the room to use the loo when this happens will hopefully come to an end.

    Yes, I know it has been going on for many many years, but Notaries are being arrested now too 🙂

    suzanne estate agents certainly do take their commission from the black money, do you think I would invoice the vendor who is going back to the UK to stay with a relative at an ambiguous adress??

    Estate agents didn´t invent black money. The Spanish Buyers and sellers did to save on CGT and PPT at 18% and 7% respectively. It is the accepted way even now. Of course it is tax evasion and consequently illegal. However cheating the treasury is a public pass-time both in the UK and Spain. We have all paid cash to avoid the VAT, or had a bonus in cash at work at some stage. Better our pockets than Gordon Brown and his Spanish counterpart!

  • #71965
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    We eventually found ourselves an excellent (local) lawyer who was successful in court for us.
    From the same development he did try to apply a group case with several purchasers, and when court day came – the judge said he wouldn’t accept a group, that everyone had to have an individual case.
    Another judge, and with another group, our lawyer was successful.
    So the judges are not constant with what/what is not allowed.

    On whether the legal process is getting any better – I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
    When a developer who is involved in the Malaya scandal (arrested, then released on bail) is allowed – as recently as last week – to continue to sit on the money of a purchaser for yet another 8 months for yet another hearing re. an illegal build, then I’m afraid I don’t believe the judges are making much of an effort, nor is the process getting any better.

  • #71966
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    No worries charlie we can agree to disagree on that one.

    I don´t side with developers as a rule. But in some cases the developer can get planning permission (quite legitimately) and going by the book, only to have it revoked several months down the line because the local mayor/planning department have come under investigation for bribary/corruption in non related cases.

    I know this has happened because I have a Spanish friend/neighbour going almost bankrupt because the delay has cost him a fortune. They are a good family and don´t deserve this. So in cases where judges often won´t progress a case against a developer it often is because the developer has a case going against the town hall regarding revoked permits.

    This is quite common when a blanket revoke of licenses is in place. many decent developers become victims, and it passes down the line through to the agent involved and the buyer at the end. But often it is not just the buyer who looses or stands to lose money.

    I know this is not necessarily the case for people here on the forum but sometimes we forget we are not the only injured parties involved. My Spanish neighbour will almost certainly go bust before his appeal is settled and then he will not be able to carry on his business and quite possibly lose his family too. Everybody knows the local mayor is the one at fault, he will deservedly go to prison but it´s no conselation to those involved.

  • #71980
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    Any innocent party caught up in the Spanish property problems do not deserve what is happening to them, whatever side of the fence they are.
    However (and I am not referring to your Spanish friend here as obviously I do not know the details of his situation) the developments that I know of where the BL has been revoked is where the original application blatantly went against the PGOU plan.

    A developer who knowingly built anything that was not in accordance with the PGOU plan (clutching an illegal BL obtained by bribery) took a gamble – and they got away with it for years. Now they’re getting their comeuppance for ruining swathes of coastline, nature reserves and designated green zones – all in the name of GREED.

    Now the doo doos has hit the fan, the corruption is exposed – and they will have to bear the consequences, even if it means they go bust.
    I will not cry that they will have their lives ruined – I know many purchasers who feel in that position. Their children’s inheritance lost, saddled with a mortgage for years with no property to show for it, in hospital with heart problems due to the stress…..I could go on.

    The stupid thing is, like the Town Hall officials, they never knew when to quit. Do it once or twice, make some money, and a good chance they would have got away with it. But we all know what happens if you keep betting on black in the casino, you get away with ‘winning’ for a while. But at one point red will come up and it’s red for loads of developers right now, and they’ve finally lost. They just didn’t know when to quit while they were ahead.

    Personally Paddy, I can’t imagine there is ever a ‘blanket revoke of licences’. I believe that when a licence is revoked it is because there is a problem with that particular licence. For PGOU reasons or otherwise. IMHO.

  • #72179
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    Briton arrested for illegal TV decoder card
    A 60 year Briton, named as Paul R.C. is among four people arrested in Las Palmas de Gran Canaria for taking part in a network of illegal tv decoding cards.
    The cards were for the Digital Plus system and the four arrested, A Frenchman, Cuban and Spaniard and the Briton face a possible four year prison sentence and the payment of compensation which could run into thousands of Euro.

    Nice to know judges have their priorities in order?!
    How about some prison-time (and compensation payments) for some of the developers? I’m yet to read of one case ’til now. Or do you have to be a ‘Big Business’ boy to get justice?

  • #72180
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    Another example:
    Quote:
    Barcelona Restaurant owner sent to prison for four years because of noise

    The sentence issued by the Barcelona Provincial Court has now been confirmed by the Supreme Court in Spain

    The Supreme Court has confirmed a four year prison sentence handed down to the owner of a bar and restaurant which was causing excessive noise in an area of Barcelona.

    The high court found the establishment lacking measures demanded by law, and guilty of a crime against natural resources and the environment.

    The owner will also have to compensate four neighbours with amounts of between 6,000 € and 10,000 €.

    The Supreme Court thus supports the ruling from the Provincial Court in Barcelona.
    © Copyright 2007 by typicallyspanish.com

  • #72181
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    So four-year sentences seem to be a favourite of the judges for these relatively small ‘crimes’.
    Am waiting with baited breath to see what happens in the first case I read about involving a developer and millions of euros.

  • #72182
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    charlie

    sounds like ‘sour grapes’, i would think if the judges had heard about this before they bought the genuine article, they would have bought one, congratulated the four on their entrpapanureal skills, and sent the television companies to jail??

  • #72187
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Note that all the “crimes” affected the Spanish. We are but mere foreigners!

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