Court hearing in Madrid 24.09.07 – resolution today

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This topic contains 30 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 9 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #53202
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Bad news, folks.

    This hearing was an appeal of an appeal of a case that we initially won way back in October 2006 against MVG. We had bank guarantees, and good legal arguments (illegal build, no LFO, build not as promised in the contract, late completion, you name it…) and an excellent lawyer. After our winning the case, the bank paid the money into the court but immediately appealed. The appeal was set for six months later, May 2007, but was then postponed for a further 5 months. This time we have lost.

    The reasons given are that insufficient documentary evidence was produced by our lawyer to prove that the apartments weren’t ‘finished’, and also because not having an LFO is not enough reason to cancel the contract. This is in spite of the fact that 20 pages of documents were produced by our lawyer including some reports from Marbella´s Town Hall to show the licence was illegal, and he asked their architect from the Town Hall to go to Madrid and declare as witness on our behalf.

    “He was in the Court and declared :

    “licence was illegal”

    “Urbanization was illegal”

    “in April 2006 (6 months after the moment they should give you the apartments) urbanization was empty and works were unfinished”.”

    IN GOD’S NAME WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET JUSTICE IN THIS ROTTEN STATE OF SPAIN ??

    Words fail me!!!

    roots

  • #75372
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots – I really don’t know what to say except to echo your comment “words fail me”. Can this go on to another Appeal, or is this the end of it ❓

  • #75374
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Something…somewhere…is terribly wrong. What is going to make it change ❓ 😈
    If this case was lost, I don’t hold out much hope for others in similar circumstances. I know I’m being negative but it really beggars belief. If the letter of the law was upheld, then this case should have been won. The word of the architect of Marbella Town Hall was obviously not taken into account. So who was the judge listening to when he arrived at his/her decision? Hmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!
    👿

  • #75375
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    No, Suzanne, it’s not the end. There will be a High Court appeal – maybe a Supreme Court appeal – and then – who knows?

    More money, more time…

    At my age I could be in my grave before we reach an end!!!

    roots

  • #75376
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The more I dwell on this, the crosser I get, so I can only try & imagine how you are feeling Roots. Firstly shock, then anger, and then somehow you manage to find the resilience to carry on fighting – believing that justice has to be finally done.

    Although, I do suspect that this ruling will make many re-think their situation. Maybe some will decide to complete on their illegal properties if they lose their cases, hoping that the Licences eventually come through & then sell. Who knows ❓ ❓ ❓

    Seems to me that Bank Guarantees hold no value in the eyes of some Spanish Judges, and Consumer Law can also be cast aside as though it does not exist.

    One thing I do feel sure of is that these kind of Rulings against consumers are not going to do Spanish ambience any favours at all.

  • #75384
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots – have you thought of approaching newspapers/journalists to get your story in print. You could even contact Sur in English yourself. If they don’t want to do an article, what about the Letters to Editor pages in various newspapers ❓

    The more publicity to expose these Deplorable Rulings, the better, I say ❗

    Maybe ONLY when the Brits et al stop buying homes in Spain because of what they are learning, then the tides will turn.

  • #75386
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Apparently Diario Sur has already shown interest in publishing this disgraceful resolution.

    For all you lawyers out there, please note it now seems that the architect’s End of Works Certificate has become the new LFO. 😯
    Perhaps this Madrid judge should re-write Spain’s law books, she certainly has her own version of the law.

    Being told by a judge that you have to complete on something that the Town Hall itself admits/declares is illegal, that has no LFO and where you could be liable to pay the developer’s ‘compensation payments’ if they go bust…..what planet is this woman living on?

    Roots – good for you for appealing to the Higher Court, let’s hope at least they are able to interpret the law correctly.

  • #75390
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots

    ……..what is there to say?. How can someone be allowed to work in the legal system with no common sense, or at least refusing to use it?

    They are clearly not fit to judge, and should be replaced by a body of people who are.

    Assuming it’s not curruption, it’s just gross incompetence, the laws are there for good reason, what the hell is going on????????

  • #75391
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, Suzanne, I will continue to write. It’s funny but it’s the waiting for the verdict that I find so debilitating. After the shock of yesterday, now that we have a resolution (the word itself is a mockery) I find myself this morning in fine fighting fettle.

    Pick yourself up, dust yourself down, etc… might sound trite but there’s a truth in the cliche. Stay angry – don’t get depressed.

    Again, I’ll post any responses I get.

    roots

  • #75392
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    All credit to you Roots.

    What an unbelievable shambles all this is. On the one hand we read of demolitions on illegal properties in Marbella, and then your story – being told by a Judge that you should complete on an illegal property with no LFO 😯

    I was tossing & turning all night going over this in my mind, & wondering what miseries future court cases will bring.
    It’s a wonder we’re not all in straight jackets ❗

  • #75397
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    i think it’s some of the judges who need putting in straight jackets……..put in a cell and the key thrown away! Are they any less guilty than the developers/agents?

  • #75400
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It makes me wonder if these verdicts are discriminatory, in cultural terms.
    In other words, because it is foreigners(mostly Brits) who are bringing these kind of actions, the judge(s) feel duty bound to rule against us.

    I thought Eurovision, footie matches etc were bad for showing these kinds of Euro prejudices against Brits, but the legal system too….it’s just appalling!

    However Roots, I like your style. Well done for not buckling.

  • #75404
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Oh, it’s not just me – there are 5 of us involved in this one. And we’re all spitting – and prepared to appeal.

    Well, what do you know? This very morning I received a letter from the office of the Secretary General of the European Parliament acknowledging receipt of my petition forwarded by letter! You may remember that I wrote to all my local MEPs (amongst a number of other people that I thought might be able to help us) some months ago and two of them assured me that they had sent my letters on to ‘the Commission’ (at the time I wasn’t quite clear what that term meant) for their comments. Well, apparently my letters have ended up on the desk of the Committee on Petitions. So my case, as it was then back in May, will be considered first for admissibility and then if that is OK it will go before the Committee at a meeting open to the public where the substance of the case will be examined! They warn me that the procedure for the examination of a petition may be fairly lengthy because of the large number of petitions that the Committee receives. Plus they have to be translated into all the official languages of the EU.

    I only tell you all this to give you some idea of the ‘lengthy procedure’. The wheels grind extremely slowly – but they DO grind. I just hope my case is admissible.

    I should remind everyone that my letters to the MEPs were all sent before Suzanne began the SPSPetition and that they were not sent to rival or undermine Suzanne’s efforts. Today, I’m just surprised that they’re surfacing again. I had given them up for lost.

    Also today I heard from another member of our-group-of-five who lives in the constituency of Michael Cashman, MEP, that his office will support our case.

    roots

  • #75405
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good news roots, that eventually your letter has been responded to. Better late than never. 😉 If only those wheels would move a lot quicker.

  • #75406
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Excellent news Roots. I know you were writing letters & fighting this long before I started SPSP; just shows what can be accomplished by targeting the right people. Fantastic.

    Michael Cashman forwarded details of SPSP & detailed info that I sent him to the Petitions Committee some months ago, so with us all pulling together, Justice has to be served. I’m convinced that intervention by the EU Parliament will be the most concrete way of obtaining this justice – and maybe the only way.

    Looking forward to more news from you 🙂

  • #75409
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots
    Admire your determination.
    Yet another prime example of why pressure needs to be put on the legal system for change?
    How can any of us look to this legal result to give anyone any optimism in getting a fair and just result?
    Talking about sport at least Hamilton is giving Alonso a bit of grief in the F.1 G.Ps
    Funny that he turns the screw and says the McClaren team were doing something illegal and outside the law.( as If ?) 😉

    As Mr Mainwaring use to say when the tide turns it appears that they dont like it up em!

    Wish you well

    Frank 8)

  • #75410
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    As a spanish lawyer please let me launch a defense in favour of my country: I tend to think that justice in Spain can be as messy as in any other country. I can assure that we have got a serious and solvent judicial system and enough legislation to cover good defenses.

    I would like it to be taken as a a contraweight because I am not comfortable with massive comentaries on disasterous justice. It creates a big sense of legal unsecurity which is not fully real and that can put many people in unnecessary worriness. There are many fair court decissions passed in similar cases. I know of many of them, we study and use them daily for the defense of our clients.

    Also, there are many experts studying an improving the legal science for the defense of consumers/individuals.

    Of course I fully believer what you are talking about and am very sorry for those affected by unfair Court decissions ( at the end of the day it is just life!) and wish them good appealings and success at the end.

  • #75412
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “put in a cell and the key thrown away”.

    This will be too easy. These judges/lawyers should be thrown into the sharks. Sorry Maria. The decesion going against law of probebality is one thing. However being blindedly ignorant is another thing.

    I, have many Spanish friends including lawyers they themselves make a mockery of the Spanish legal system and as a result they dont bother with the Courts and sort out matter in a conventional/non conventional manner.

    A few people in various walks of Spanish life is disgracing their Country. I for one feel annoyed about it. I am not even Spanish. Perhaps I am annoyed because I am not Spanish otherwise would have just said “pasa nada ” shrugged my soldiers and carried on my merry way.

  • #75413
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    shakeel

    i agree, people in Spain shrugging ther shoulders and saying ‘that’s life’ is probably responsible for many of the problems. If only their attitude was ”This is just not acceptable, let’s sort it out now!”

  • #75415
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    i agree, people in Spain shrugging ther shoulders and saying ‘that’s life’ is probably responsible for many of the problems. If only their attitude was ”This is just not acceptable, let’s sort it out now!”

    I agree completely, but I also think that Maria has always taken the view ”This is just not acceptable, let’s sort it out now!” which is the reason she posts on these boards and gives so much valuable information.

    I very much doubt if she intended to sound unsympathetic and we should take into account that these comments don’t always translate.

    What an unbelievably awful situation – how can anyone proceed with a court case against a developer when the courts have no concept of justice. Surely this judge must be called to account – in the press if necessary.

  • #75416
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I don’t think the Judge’s decision was an unfair one – I think it was an unlawful one.

    At the 100% risk of being shot to smithereens here; if this case was a class action of 5 individual cases (as it sounds), am wondering if this has something to do with the ruling ❓ We know that the Spanish Courts do not like Class Action. I am in no way condoning the ruling or passing on any blame ❗
    Easy does it…..

  • #75418
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    yes, i wondered. I’d heard the same thing about the class actions, but i think a good lawyer would have sorted it?

    Tilly

    I’m very aware of the great job Maria and Drakan have done for many people, and know they spend much of their time helping and giving fabulous advice free of charge. I take your point and hope it’s just a translation thing.

  • #75419
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maria, you are right. There IS a sound judicial system in Spain. None of us would deny that. Any country which once belonged to Rome shares a common history and each of its legal systems has a common core – justice. Just as in every other modern European State your system has developed over the centuries to meet the needs of your citizens.

    The problem here lies in the practice of the system. In many of the cases that are written about on the SPI threads it is the ABUSE of the system that is being complained about, not the system itself. That is an argument for another time in another place.

    In my case, I was very angry when I wrote on this thread. I feel PERSONALLY hurt by these latest events. I plagiarised ‘There is something rotten in the state of Denmark’ (Shakespeare’s Hamlet). I am aware now that my throwaway remark as it was written could be construed as offensive and I am sorry for that. I have no wish to make enemies of friends.

    But, someone out there who should know better has not obeyed the letter of the law as it stands now in Spain and has abused their power given to them by the system. There is nothing in my case to have an argument about. It is as clear cut as it can be. If everyone involved had lived up to their responsibilities at the time they should have, I would not be writing this today.

    These are chaotic times in Spain, but I cling on in good faith. There is justice and fairness and kindness and good-men-and-women-and-true. If I can’t believe that I might just as well stop living. A just resolution might not happen tomorrow, or next week, or even next year. But please, no more ‘that’s life’. Life is what you make it, and whatever it throws at you, if you so choose, can be regarded as a learning opportunity. If we don’t learn from it TOGETHER then it has all been a waste.

    roots

  • #75420
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Roots

    I have been watching this thread and echo the thoughts of many who feel for you.

    Your last posting really moved me.

    I wish you the very best in your fight and admire you for keeping your head held high under what must be tremendous pressure in the face of such adversity.

    Inez

  • #75421
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you everyone for your encouragement. It is a definite help.

    I have just checked the judgement (which is in Spanish – a language I don’t speak) and there is my name on it only. So I’m unsure whether it was a class action or not. I know that there were five of us all in the same predicament and that our cases were all heard on the same day. I would have thought that if it was a class action all our names would have been on the final document. But I could be wrong.

    roots

  • #75422
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots

    i’m in much the same position as you, and reading your post, makes me realise i sometimes come across as very bitter and very angry towards everything and everyone in Spain, when in reality, my anger is aimed at a very small group of people.

    my case hasn’t even been thrashed out in court yet!, though my lawyer has secured through the courts, an embargo on a property of the developer we are up against in case they go under before it’s sorted, which is something, as long as we get a judge who makes a fair decision on our case, which is as black and white as yours!

    As you say, we have to believe in finding the good in people, however long it takes. It’s this as well as anger that drives me to seing this through. How long it will take is anyones guess?, but again we know the system for justice is in place, it just needs applying! We wont give up, and the longer this goes on, the stronger my resolve.

  • #75426
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    100% behind you Roots – & Goodstich 🙂

  • #75430
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    thanks again, it seems to be a waiting game now?. Since the court granted the embargo, we haven’t heard anything. When i queried this with our lawyer, he said he is waiting to hear from the courts. I think they are still waiting for a response from the developer to our claim for breach of contract. I thought the developers only had a certain time to respond to the courts but perphaps not?. If not, heaven knows how long we could be waiting?

  • #75431
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    roots. Its quite clear that you are a very decent man and a good person and even in such adverse circumstances your goodness, warmth and faith in humanity sugguest to me that you are also a deeply sensative person.

    I can assure you that I would not have reacted in a manner that you find yourself in. I would have have reacted in a very different manner and I am not a violant person and cannot even a hurt an ant. But this frankly taking the biscuit to put it mildly

  • #75432
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Tilly, I would like to agree with you whole heartedly, regarding your comments about Maria.

    Maria’s English is very good. I only wished my Spanish was as good as her English. Yes, I do agree that things/meanings gets lost in translations even if you speak the same language particularly on the net.

    I have met her & not only her but her family dog too. Maria is as applalled by the situation as any one of us. From her postings you can see that she feels particularly bad as to how her profession and the reputation of her Country has been brought into disgrace. I can fully understand her as the Country & its people DO NOT deserve it.

  • #75435
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    That is the sentiments of our Spanish Lawyer. He wants to put the wrongs , right. He is also puting our case forward to sue our original lawyer.

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