Court Case

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This topic contains 60 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 8 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #53770
    Profile photo of Karen
    Karen
    Participant

    Help required, Court case final hearing 25th Feb 08 – chased solicitor and he advises could take up to another 2 mths Originally instructed this case Oct 06.
    Having to pay bank interest each mth for illegal property and really stressing now
    Has anyone any good news on court cases & does anyone know how we speed things up
    Property in Elviria & court is Marbella

  • #79831
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Karen
    Started mine in 2005 and lucky to get a hearing this year.
    Courts are simply bogged down not help that when developers loose they start an appeal straight away.

    Frank 8)

  • #79846
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Karen

    what a completely useless system, if an illegal property can go straight to appeal!!

    a certain large developer is facing 200+ cases against them for wrong doings. You would think the reason for not being allowed to appeal is somewhat staring the courts in the face?

    some people are talking of ‘when the economy picks up’, well on top of everything else, with Spanish courts making judgements as slow and as poor as at present, what chance?

    unless they change their pathetic ways, i really wonder if some Spanish courts are even fit to operate.

    i’m sorry i can’t help. I don’t know if anyone can without intervention from outside Spain.

  • #79848
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    i’m sorry i can’t help. I don’t know if anyone can without intervention from outside Spain.

    The EU (and a variety organisations in Spain) there to help via complaints/advice all say they can do nothing if a case is already ‘in progress’ and the Eu add they cannot intervene in another countries legal system.

    “what a completely useless system, if an illegal property can go straight to appeal!!”.
    How about our case – the developer hadn’t built a brick for two years because the building licence was revoked (not suspended….revoked), and they still went ‘straight to appeal’.
    Should not be allowed but it is.
    Still, the whole process was nice for the developer, allowed them to hold on to our monies for yet another year while the case went on. πŸ‘Ώ

    Karen – I’m afraid there is nothing you, your lawyer or anyone can do to ‘speed things up’.

  • #79850
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    How about our case – the developer hadn’t built a brick for two years because the building licence was revoked (not suspended….revoked), and they still went ‘straight to appeal’

    If my memory is not letting me down, Karen bought at Los Lagos. Same developer Charlie!! πŸ™„
    I am still getting within the last week,pm’s from people on the development we bought on who are waiting for their case against the developers to be heard. One of them was from someone who won their case in Court but the developer has appealed….AGAIN!! πŸ‘Ώ

    Edited for word spacing 😳

  • #79851
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    …..what a bloody farce, how can anyone defend this?

  • #79852
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire – please don’t tell me they are purchasers from the upper blocks (the no-build part) who still haven’t had their money back….since 2003? πŸ™

  • #79853
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Claire – please don’t tell me they are purchasers from the upper blocks (the no-build part) who still haven’t had their money back….since 2003? πŸ™

    No. Lower level. These are new people that I have not had any dealings with before.

  • #79854
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    So suspended building licence and no Licence of First Occupation (therefore ‘illegal build’ status) are still grounds to allow the developer to appeal against returning monies.
    Good one, Spanish ‘justice’ system….

  • #79855
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    …..and this illegal status has remained for four and a half years! πŸ˜• Los Lagos must be almost the same time frame, give or take … As Karen stated, they are paying interest (loan/mortgage?) on the deposit on a property they could not sell on even if they completed on it!

  • #79856
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    What I think is happening with marbella cases is that the whole legal system is colluding with the developers to stall the process. They are just hoping to delay the cases long enough for the properties to be legalised.

  • #79857
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You’ve hit the nail on the head, I think Katy. Meanwhile people are paying thousands of euros (even more Β£’s!) on lawyers and court fees to get the compensation that they deserve and should get from the “so called” Spanish laws and Judicial system.
    I wonder what the results would be if it were the developers in the reverse situation? Doesn’t take a genius to come up with the answer to that one!

  • #79858
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    What I think is happening with marbella cases is that the whole legal system is colluding with the developers to stall the process. They are just hoping to delay the cases long enough for the properties to be legalised.

    Not hard to work out is it Katy?

    Clearly Spain doesn’t want to be a “train wreck” and I’m astounded that anyone thinks governments and those in power will allow it, they will if it’s in their power delay and avoid it if they can. Most Governments (in our part of the world) work broadly on the principal that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (a utilitarian philosophy.) Sadly Karen is one of the few.

    You should also be aware that litigation of any type takes years by the way, my experience is that even if your case is totally watertight getting to court and a judgment can take up to five or six years. Oh and my experience is based on cases in the UK not Spain.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #79859
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Will be interesting to see what happens in the Aifos cases where the Chairman and the Financial Director themselves are accused in the Malaya corruption scandal.

    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_15432.shtml

  • #79861
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi
    Think Paul has summed it up very well and they are abusing the very legal system and our money to try to avoid the train crash.
    Spain cant afford us to win these court cases.
    Court cases will grow at a much faster rate as nothing is getting resolved and feel that even one single appeal will extend the problem for at least a year may be two.5 years and some properties may be worth what they were 5 years (ie 2003) ago and be easier to sell.
    I honestly beleive that the strong case I have on one development will take at least another 3 years that will make it to over 6.
    What will then happen in cases like Karen if in the unlikely case she wins the developer has no money,none of the developers have the money for mega refunds involving thousands of properties, and banks would be bought to their knees.
    What will many do ?
    1 Carry on paying legal fees to fight a system like this. 😈
    2 Walk away as they are trapped with illegal properties with little hope of justice
    3,They feel they have little option other than to complete and put up with it.
    4 Sit and wait for developers to go bust and loose anyway.
    5 Somehow if someone decides to walk away from the better developments then the bargain hunters will snap them up.

    Seems its a loose loose situation for us all at the moment
    As I said earlier I am having to work overtime to put some positives but in this instance these are not predictions,these are facts as its happening now.

    Frank 8)

  • #79866
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just Frank

    not sure of Pauls summoning up.

    …….Spain doesn’t want a train wreck???????

    well i would say through poor regulation, poor justice, corruption, and greed, and probably not being to ‘organise a piss-up, in a brewery’ the government have been the biggest contributor to the ‘train wreck’……and what are they doing to reverse the train?, as much as nothing it seems?

    As for just hitting a few, i don’t buy that either, the damage being done is vast, and now being shouted far and wide, as other efforts to make Spain put it’s house in order, fall on deaf ears.

    Just because the majority might try to ignore the situation, that doesn’t hide it anymore, and i think that’s a good thing…….for good people!!

  • #79869
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Here is the way it seems to be working.

    Litigation is long and expensive for the claimant (buyer).

    Litigation is long but cheaper for the defendant (developer) they have salaried lawyers working for them (i.e. it’s a fixed cost to them).

    The dispute goes something like this.

    The claimant gets cheesed off by the wait and completes the developer gets the money and he carries on. The claimant, now the owner, has paid for the apartment and has to pay his/her cost for the aborted claim.

    or

    The claimant gets cheesed off and just cuts and moves on with the rest of their lives, the developer has a property he can now sell at a reduced rate (he still has at least 30% of the claimants money) he’s still happy. The claimant has paid his/her costs for the aborted claim and lost the deposit.

    or

    The case goes to court 50/50 chance either way as to the outcome, best case the claimant get his/her money back with interest and costs. I haven’t worked out the possible costs to the developer against cost of money generally (maybe one for mg) but i would guess that the developer is not over bothered in the scheme of things. Worst case the developer wins, the developer gets his cost paid and the claimant has to complete (the developer gets the money.) The claimant, now owner, pays his/her own costs.

    A claim at the moment is very difficult I’d say.

    Goodstich44

    the government have been the biggest contributor to the ‘train wreck’

    You could argue that, although i would doubt if they want recession.

    As for just hitting a few, i don’t buy that either, the damage being done is vast, and now being shouted far and wide, as other efforts to make Spain put it’s house in order, fall on deaf ears.

    Clearly the boom days have gone, but properties are still being sold and no one has shown me that prices have dropped that much yet (just talk by people who would like them to fall). If they legalise all of the properties, give them LFO’s where will that leave the market? My view is that property sales will pickup. Those that are waiting for a LFO will complete and Spain will become part of the general recession which the world seems happy to talk ourselves into.

    Just because the majority might try to ignore the situation, that doesn’t hide it anymore, and i think that’s a good thing…….for good people!!

    Good doesn’t come into it, happy people do, remember governments work on the principal of the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few. Most people don’t care about buying second home property in Spain. Why in God’s name do you think anyone cares about people who need two homes when most can not afford one. If it’s health care, schools or making sure you get your money back from someone in Spain, just so you had somewhere to go that was sunny, who do you think people will vote for? Would it be the MP that wants to spend money on health care and schools or the MP that wants to help the poor unfortunate that’s lost some of his cash buying a second home in the sun?

    People buying second properties anywhere are in the minority we are the few (lucky in my case) No One Cares goodstich44!

    Regards

    Paul

  • #79871
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich 44 πŸ™‚

    Of course I aree with your comments on the corruption etc
    Following that I can offer no additional comments than Pauls reply.

    Frank 8)

  • #79873
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    p800aul

    no, i don’t think many do care about my situation and the many like me, but i think they care about their wrecked coatline, their countries failing reputation as somewhere people want to holiday or live, and the effect the reduced tourism/housing boom will have on the economy, even allowing for the current global situation.

    as for your explanation of how the system works, again i think you might well be right, but that doesn’t make it acceptable by any means. I think it shows how much big change is desperately needed, before people will believe that doing the right thing, is coming down from the top brass.

    Most of the mess is only there because it’s not been kept in check by the right people at the right time. Surely that has to start from the top?

  • #79879
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich44

    It would be nice if ‘many’ cared but sadly they don’t, most people are NIMBYs and what they can’t see doesn’t effect them. I think you would be amazed at how ignorant people still are about the property “situation” in Spain and still “want the dream” and if they legalise the developments and issue LFOs people will be back and buying their place in the sun.

    I agree the system is not acceptable and it comes from the top, but it only really effects a few thousand people at the most, so who are you going to get to care. Maybe you’ll get a channel 4 documentary on it, as it’s cheap TV, but that’s all.

    I don’t know what people like Karen should do, the word is that Los Lagos will be legalised at sometime in the future I think we all agree, so personally if it was driving me nuts and consuming my life i would either get out and take the hit (life is more important) or complete and chill. Years of court action from my experience needs a large amount of money with staying power and life’s too short. Thankfully its not my decision to make, sorry Karen.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #79918
    Profile photo of Karen
    Karen
    Participant

    Thank you for all your responses which have been helpful. I suppose after nearly 5 yrs since putting down my deposit it has become part of my life and I will continue to progress this through the court who I hope will see common sense. From your responses I need to be prepared for a long wait

  • #79930
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Karen

    yes, we will also probably spend a few more months/years getting back what is rightfully ours. (6 years in June)

    It’s just WRONG WRONG WRONG……..no excuse, no defense, just a rubbish unregulated system that far to often plays in to hands of the low life.

    will i ever get real justice?, who knows?. I wont give in though, i know that much. I will carry on for as long as it takes, and whatever?. I hope others do the same. We can’t let the bastards win!

    Good luck!

  • #79935
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich 44

    We cant let the bastards win . πŸ˜•

    Its a sad fact that they cant afford to loose.
    Win cases and they go to appeal,
    Win the appeal and the assets of the company will have been stripped or the company goes bust,
    Win the case and find you have won it against a developer where the banks have first charge over the assets.
    There will be cases where out of court settlements will happen and but these may become rare.
    How much money is everyone going to keep paying out in legal fees with a system that is showing that justice is not an option.
    Our cases .Yours 6 years ,mine 5 years and still no light.
    My development the owners are vey wealthy and I just may have a very small chance.
    Yours a bunch of conmen and the assets will be long gone.
    These were just selling agents/promoters who were paid commision to sell a developers property.
    You say you are fighting for whats yours.whats yours may well have gone , one day it may be a case when its a fight that cant be won and something we may all have to accept.
    WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER AS WINNING WHEN YOU GET NOTHING IN RETURN.
    How can thousands get their money from developers where the property is worth less than they paid for it
    The developer has paid out commissions of 10%+
    The developer has beed paying massive repayment costs on loans
    The developer has been paying massive amounts in management fees
    The developer not covered his basic build costs.
    Like it or not this will be the real world and all these rantings of conmen.cheats,liers,low life will be history.
    ITS WRONG NO DOUPT BUT ITS GOING TO BE A REALITY CHECK FOR MANY AND PREPARE FOR DARK DAYS AHEAD OR ACCEPT THE SITUATION AS IT IS AND LIFE MOVES ON.

    I am the messenger I know first hand how many lifes have been ruined but peoples lives are ruin everyday for one reason or another,thats life.

    Frank 8)

  • #79956
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just Frank

    there will be winners and losers, no doubt about that, but if people who are very much in the right, just roll over and die, and let the bastards rob them without a fight, then what message is that sending?

    No, on the contrary, i think we should fight, not just those of us who, have been screwed, but everyone who has anything to do with buying in Spain. Let’s weed out out the liars and con-men, expose them through whatever media will listen, and fight them as hard as possible through the courts, using good lawyers.

    I believe the tide is turning, and most people now are aware of the hopeless unregulated system, that has not only let the low-life flourish, but even worse, in many cases, has allowed them to get away with it, even when found out.

    The Spanish housing market and the hopeless laws that fail to protect decent people stink. Greed and corruption flourish, while honesty and trust is rewared with lies, lies, and more lies. And what’s the result?, thousands of flats nobody wants, ruing miles of Spain coastline and inland area’s, and a very fast falling reputation as a place to buy/rent and even holiday. Who wants that?

    I think we should fight, fight, fight. If we still go down, then we will know we gave it our best shot, and did our best to rid Spain of the people who have done so much damage.

  • #79962
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Goodstich
    Good lawyers are of little use if they are faced with a legal system that clearly is not working.
    Fight.Fight.Fight ? For that I feel you would need very big teeth indeed.

    Frank 8)

  • #79963
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Goodstitch, I admire you, may the wind always be at your back 8)

  • #79964
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    katy

    thanks, we have to keep going.

    Frank

    a few people on here have made their teeth felt, i intend to be one of them.

  • #79966
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich44 πŸ™‚
    Well 6 years now and calling out liars.low life,scum etc doesnt seem to have them on the run, just yet anyway. 😯
    There indeed are those that help others and have had their teeth felt however unless there is some sort of European intervention then its just nibbling at a very big apple.

    Good luck .Goodstitch(Rambo) 44 πŸ˜‰

    Frank 8)

  • #79970
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just Frank

    well the insults are just calling a spade a spade. As for Euro intervention, well it seems we have to abide by Euro rules, but according to our MEP’S, on the intervention to stop us being screwed by the Spanish system, member countries can do what they like in their own country. Great system eh?

    I think the only way will be either be through the media, the courtrooms, or Spain eventually waking up, and facing it’s own self destruction, and doing something itself to restore faith. At the moment though, ironically, the global crisis is probably saving some heads from the block, but that may well be wishful thinking?

    protest, boycott, lobbying, media reports, if everyone does what they can to expose the rot and keep it in the public eye, then hopefully change will eventually be forced.

    The argument ‘this is Spain, so get real’ is really saying it’s a country full of liars, cheats and con-men, so you might as well get used to it, shut up and walk away! ……… well of course they exist, in all countries, but i don’t think that’s fair on the decent people of Spain, or the decent agents, lawyers or developers operating there.

  • #79978
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Goodstich.
    No of course we dont sit back but reality the corruption has already done the damage and somehow a course needs to be found for all of us as to the future.(if some feel they have one)
    At the moment today is the reality for many and personally dont think that many are listening regarding the past.
    Spain will suffer enough πŸ˜† for all this corruption and in the end just may be they will learn.
    This year and the credit crunch will do what you are trying to do in the main and lets just keep the pressure up for change however still feel its falling on deaf years..
    Spain will be brought to their needs for no other reason than their total greed,corrupt legal system and planing applications in Councils..

    Frank 8)

  • #80316
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Is there anyone out there from the upper level at Green Hills.
    We bought the upper level and finally got our Judgement last November. However we have not received a penny in payment as yet. I am being told there are others in the same situation as ourselves but I am not convinced. If there are, I would like to hear from you.

  • #80317
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Chasnash,
    It took about 3 months before we got our money. The bank appealed against our first judgement but they had to pay the money into the Court where it was held until the next hearing. We did not get the interest or legal fees for approx a further 10weeks after that. Have the bank/developers appealed against that judgement or was it the final judgement?
    It’s disgraceful that 5 years down the line you are still waiting for your money back from a developer who did not build the apartments. 😈

  • #80324
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire,
    Thanks for the reply.
    We have been fighting the Developer as there was no Bank Guarantee, although the contract we signed said there was.
    Our solicitor has persevered through thick and thin and we got a final judgement. He phoned me this evening with some encouraging news for us. We will keep you all posted with the result.

  • #80328
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Chas – Their usual game at this point when a ruling has been made for them to pay is first to delay, then to make you an offer of
    a) money now but without any legal interest or
    b) money with legal interest but to be paid in 6 months time.
    Will be interesting to see if this is what they offer you.
    Oh, and of course c) ……an alternative (illegal) appartment at a discount!
    This lot are ‘special’ – stay firm.

  • #80329
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Chas

    I would be interested to know who you got judgement against. If it’s the construction company, are they not the same as Los Lagos?

    if so be aware of the previous post here

    A lady who has a deposit on a property at Los Lagos has been advised by Direct Lawyers that developer of Los Lagos is close to bankruptcy Any one heard this or is it just rumours to get people to complete

    Regards

    Paul

  • #80335
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Paul

    As far as I’m aware, and according to Eralia’s website still, the developer of Los Lagos is ‘officially’ Los Lagos de Santa MarΓ­a Golf, S.L whereas the developer for Green Hills is Marbella Vista Golf S.L. This despite Eralia promoting them as their developments back in 2003.

    Again, as far as I know, these are still the names on the contracts and therefore they are the companies who are involved in the court cases where there are no Bank Guarantees. Maybe anyone involved with these two developments can confirm if their contracts are still with these co. names.

    On page 1 of this thread I wrote: “please don’t tell me there are purchasers from the upper blocks (the no-build part) who still haven’t had their money back….since 2003?”. Am devastated to read that obviously there are. For a no-build, this is DISGRACEFUL. I feel so lucky we had a good lawyer and started our court proceedings when we did.

    Chasnash – was your case against Marbella Vista Golf SL?

  • #80336
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Paul,
    As you probably know (am I repeating myself?) DLM only have an interest with Eralia and associated companies. They would say anything to get someone to complete on their developments. Scare tactics.

  • #80338
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie

    I know you have researched this so forgive me.

    At our development SAFASA sold it this was moved to Eralia (who where never more than the sales agents.) The developer was Los Jardines de Santa Maria Golf SL (that’s what it said on the sales agreement.) After the first wave of completions the assets (all the apartments) where moved over to another company (I have the name.) If this is indicative of the way they operate GH and LL may be with the same company (as they are all the same people) and these according to rumour could be in bother.

    I’m sure his lawyer has checked their ability to pay before going through the process (I would) as it would be difficult to place a first charge on a property that’s not there, would it not? Hence my question who has he won against?

    Regards

    Paul

  • #80339
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire

    DLM only have an interest with Eralia and associated companies. They would say anything to get someone to complete on their developments. Scare tactics.

    My worry is who are we to say it is definitely “scare tactics” these people should be doing a credit search on the companies in question it only costs about Β£50 from say D&B worth it in my eyes. A bird in the hand and all that…….

    Regards

    Paul

  • #80340
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Paul – knowing you also do your research, take on board all you say. πŸ˜‰

    I do seem to remember that the original builder (Moleon) bought out the shares but where that leaves MVG as a company am not sure. I do know that all the cases I know of (lower blocks of GH) which are involved in court proceedings who don’t have BG’s are with MVG. So whereas the men involved behind the co. name may have changed, possibly the co. itself hasn’t. I don’t know – am not very good at this company/share stuff.

  • #80343
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    You are right Paul. A credit check would be very worthwhile for people without a BG.

  • #80349
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Chasnash
    The mind boggles that a solicitor in Spain allows you to sign a contract that says there is a Bank Guarantee without seeing.
    RULES IN SPANISH AGREEMENTS.
    1 Never trust, I will put it in the post
    2 Never trust paperwork or contract saying planning.guarantees are part of it without seeing
    3 NEVER EVER Trust another Spainsh Solicitor.Developer.or E,A when they say, I HAVE THE DOCUMENT IN FRONT OF ME NOW.
    Your situation is very different indeed to Claires and Charlies as they had guarantees from a source that can pay.
    I have information that the top and bottom phases are seperate legal identities (will by now anyway)
    I would be very suprised indeed if you find a pot of gold when you check out the legal and financial status but I would have asumed your solicitor would have done this already proir and during court proccedings to ensure securing payment should you win,
    Phase 2. The information I have is clear that from the developers and Banks are firm that they had planning,they had the admin silence rule and the property is deemed legal by the law as set by the courts in Spain.
    They loose and they will Sue the Council and the silly ole cynic in me thinks that just may not be allowed to happen 😯
    Should they loose a case which appears will start a flow of cases against them then as with hundreds of other developer bankrucy and protection of assets by the banks will will be top priority.
    Case one like yours which shows just what just how bad it is when you cant get your money back through a no build,no wonder many developers feel confident that they will win for simply being 2 or 3 years late and having no habitaion licence ,
    Wish you all the best with getting that money back and when you do the first rounds on you.

    Just Frank 8)

  • #80355
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Frank
    Just want to respectfully make a couple of comments re. your above post.

    The mind boggles that a solicitor in Spain allows you to sign a contract that says there is a Bank Guarantee without seeing.
    Most lawyers acknowledge that it is the norm in Spain that Bank Guarantees are issued up to 30 days after the initial contract is signed. I know, it’s nuts but has always been common practice. However a really good lawyer will confirm to the developer when the deposit has been paid, holding it in an escrew account until the BG is issued.

    I have information that the top and bottom phases are seperate legal identities (will by now anyway)
    I personally visited the Town Hall’s Planning Office who confirmed to me (and I saw it on their screen) that the upper and lower blocks of GH were on one building licence.
    Therefore when the BL was revoked and the u.blocks never got built, the developers took the chance by continuing to build the lower blocks. The lower blocks therefore are still under this revoked building licence hence giving the blocks illegal status.
    The helpful lady at the Pl. Office actually telephoned the developer infront of me and got them to confirm the ref. number of their BL just to make sure there was absolutely no error with this information. One number, one building licence, one development.

    The information I have is clear that from the developers and Banks are firm that they had planning,they had the admin silence rule
    Your information comes from the developer then…..OK!?
    As this BL is still currently revoked there is no chance of a LFO via Administrative Silence Rule being ‘assumed’ by the developer.

    Should they loose a case…..
    They have lost cases already, with the upper and lower blocks. All they then do is to immediately appeal to drag the whole thing out – but they have definitely lost cases and been ordered to pay up.

    …..it will start a flow of cases against them
    They already have a flow. πŸ˜‰

    Totally agree with your advice Frank about not trusting anyone that documents exist unless you see them for yourself. I know of many examples where a lawyer has blatantly lied re. having a BG when in fact it turned out they didn’t have one. Always demand a copy of every document for your personal file.
    Re. the BG, demand the original – it’s yours and is your only security for the monies you’ve paid. Let the lawyer have the ‘copy’.

    Charlie

    P.S. Sorry Chas, that doesn’t help you re. not having a BG . Your lawyer should have insisted on one – he’s let you down on this, BADLY.

  • #80358
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie
    Yep I aware that cases have gone against the developer however under appeal.Dont care either way really.
    What I am saying is that if they loose,loose and they are ordered to pay then like many other developers they will pull the plug as they would have too.
    Chasnash case warranted my mentioning it as is known I have a property there.
    I respect what you say regarding the top and bottom phase being the same status however my information says not but I am talking legal as in financial connection in the main, assets etc (,your probably right regarding planning though as that would explain the suspension issue further (ie flats instead of houses etc) all information we have is of course not 100% correct) dont care either way to be honest.
    The Bank guarantee thats accepted to follow 30 days later is what has caused many a problem(Chasnash?) and thats why I mentioned it as in my case my solicitor ensures she sees it first and considered it good advice to point this out.
    Of course the information regarding the stance the developer and the Banks are taking regarding their case that they have a legal development is from them,just mentioned it as this is indeed a fact.A fact that they are confident of winning their case,hence they are at the moment keeping the development well maintained.
    Put it this way Charlie if the bas-ars are allowed an appeal against not even building the bloody property then perhaps you can understand why they are optimistic.
    Again dont care,(getting fed up with it all )if its illegal knock it down and the Banks and myself will have to sue the Marbella Council regarding our mutual interest in our property.
    Perhaps you may think that I am trying to make a case for our development which I am not.
    I hope everyone that wants their money back is succesful as its all so wrong whichever way you look at it and like many others on hundreds of developments will be allowed to move on with their lifes ,unlike the forums at times.

    Hope you have a good weekend.

    Just Frank 8)

  • #80359
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ” ….if the bas-ars are allowed an appeal against not even building the bloody property then perhaps you can understand why they are optimistic”.

    Frank – actually my post could be a bit misleading. I should clarify that the appeal cases I know of re. upper blocks were when there was a Bank Guarantee, and the cases were therefore against the bank, not the developer.
    The bank’s arguments for appealing were based on their main case re. the fact there was a post-dated expiry date on the Bank Guarantee and they wanted people to wait ’til then. Luckily the judges regarded that insult of expecting us to wait even longer as nonsense and ordered them to pay.

    In Chas’s case, with no Bank Guarantee – would imagine the case was against the developer who would have no grounds to appeal being a no-build situation.

    Have a good weekend yourself.
    Half of it’s gone already. πŸ™

    Charlie

  • #80392
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Phase 2. The information I have is clear that from the developers and Banks are firm that they had planning,they had the admin silence rule and the property is deemed legal by the law as set by the courts in Spain.

    Maria de Castro has just answered a question I put out about this subject.

    If a development (completed 2005)is under judical review ( Elviria Marbella) because of a corrupt building licence, and it has still not been resolved, can the developer claim he has the LFO under Administrative Silence?

    Maria’s reply:

    Developer cannot claim he has the FOL under Administrative silence in this case by virtue of provision 62.1.f of the Administrative Procedure Act which states that are null and void those acts of the Administration either implicit or explicit by which rights or faculties are obtained without the necessary requirements for the obtaining

  • #80394
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Claire
    I am sure that the developer and the banks are aware of Marias information.
    In the end the courts will decide and at the moment more appear to be completing so I would assume they alongside their legal advisors are comfortable with the eventual outcome.

    Just Frank 8)

  • #80395
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I just wanted to inform about the effectiveness of this legal principle in the Spanish legal system and I want to say that the administrative silence is not a remedy for get something unlawful. There is a binding legal time for reply the application for a FLO and use to be three months. If the Town Hall does not reply with a written notification within the time period provided by law , the applicant will automatically obtain the licence, assuming that
    1ΒΊ The correct information was submitted
    2ΒΊ It complies with planning regulations
    3ΒΊ The house has been built as the Building Permission and as the architect project with all the building codes therefore suitable for habitation.
    In these situations mentioned of illegal building without licences or something like Elviria Marbella the silence is not admitted.

    Who is entitled to apply for a FLO ?
    The developer or promoter, the builder, the owner of the land or dwelling, a tenant even the buyer of an off-plan property before the sign of the purchase deeds. If the Hall has its own ordinance about FLO we should check in this ordinance who is entitled to
    The main problem is that the Town Hall does not grant a FLO if the urbanization and accessories works has not been completed but the law provides a remedy for this situation. In order to get Building Permission the developer is obliged to warrant the urbanization and accesories works through an endorsement or letter of credit in favor of the Town Hall so it is a duty for each Hall to execute or become effective the guarantee and undertake these works.
    Any affected can request the execution and if the Town Hall refuses or does not reply it is possible to bring an action in Court against Town Hall in order to obtain our legitimate claim

  • #80406
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Hi Claire
    I am sure that the developer and the banks are aware of Marias information.

    Just Frank 8)

    Are you Frank ❓ 😯

    Then why are they abusing peoples rights and ignoring the LAW. If a judge will not uphold the law, well…………! πŸ™„

    Thank you Spanishlawyer for your welcome knowledge on the Administrative Silence rule.

  • #80410
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Claire
    Yes I am Claire and think that in this case Marias and Spanish Lawyers advice may differ a little if they had all of the facts in the particular case you are interested in.
    (Why are the Spanish ignoring the law and abusing people. ❓ I suggest you ask them as I dont have a clue)
    Not that the majority of forum would be slightly interested in the issues involved here as the cases appear to be going in the developers favour and more are completing anyway.
    I dont agree or disagree either way and simply put it will have to be sorted or demolished.
    Think most of us would like the situation sorted out and have info that September that may just happen for many developments so the A.S rule will hopefully be history anyway for many.

    All the best

    Just Frank 8)

  • #80411
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maria has the facts as I am in contact with the person concerned. Her reply came AFTER knowing the facts.

    Quote Frank:

    Not that the majority of forum would be slightly interested in the issues involved here

    The thread tittle is Court Case. The case was about Green Hills. These are very pertinent issues to many cases and it benefits the forum to get free legal advice from contributing Lawyers.

  • #80414
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Claire
    To be honest I think the forum has had just about enough of reading about Green Hills for years now, I have and I own a property there.
    The bottom line is
    A.S or not it will make no difference in the end
    Its built and it complies with A.S conditions
    The developer is winning cases by all accounts.
    More people are completing and some appear to have a problem with this and this is what the forum should be looking at.(WHY )
    Its unfortunate that every single bit of advice the solicitors give us on the forums are of great value however think they will agree that one or two details missing on each case makes a big difference.
    I am sure that the person you are in contact with will benefit from the advice you give and thats all that matters

    Just Frank 8)

  • #80418
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Hi Claire
    To be honest I think the forum has had just about enough of reading about Green Hills for years now, I have and I own a property there.
    The bottom line is
    A.S or not it will make no difference in the end
    Its built and it complies with A.S conditions
    The developer is winning cases by all accounts.
    More people are completing and some appear to have a problem with this and this is what the forum should be looking at.(WHY )
    Its unfortunate that every single bit of advice the solicitors give us on the forums are of great value however think they will agree that one or two details missing on each case makes a big difference.
    I am sure that the person you are in contact with will benefit from the advice you give and thats all that mattersJust Frank 8)

    This person has their own Lawyer for advice. I’m just helping in collating the information regarding Administrative Silence Rule and if/when it is applicable. Job done! πŸ˜€

    OR
    Maybe we’re being suckered by someone who is phishing πŸ˜•

  • #85592
    Profile photo of Karen
    Karen
    Participant

    After many yrs of waiting I have been advised that we have lost our court case and we need to pay developers legal fees / Our solicitor has suggested we appeal but I worried about further costs / has any one any idea what these are. Also If you lose your court case but dont want to complete without FOL what is the position

  • #85596
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Karen. I’m sorry to hear your news but sadly not surprised. It is very difficult to give any sort of response to you as to what you could do as the whole Spanish jurisdiction system is corrupt in these disputed illegal developments. IMO.

    Maybe the judges from Marbella should give out a “blanket” decision on these developments and say” we find in favour of the developer, no matter what the problems are” 😈
    It would save hundreds of people from wasting their money, time and health worrying for years as to what the outcome will be. It will also stop lining the pockets of the lawyers.

  • #85599
    Profile photo of redpip
    redpip
    Participant

    I totally agree with claire, and as I have my case coming up shortly,I now dont hold out any hope. It would be interesting to know, on what grounds did developer win ? may I add how sorry i am Karen.

  • #85601
    Profile photo of Karen
    Karen
    Participant

    Redpip sent you a PM and good luck with yours – we have until Sept to decide what to do

  • #85603
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Karen

    so sorry to read your news. Claire has summed up the situation well..

    I feel untill someone in a position to force change, has the balls (or honesty) to stand up and say ‘this is wrong, it must change’ it’s hard to see where the improvement will come from, and even harder to know when Spains justice system will be regarded as anything like fair. ?

  • #85634
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @karen wrote:

    After many yrs of waiting I have been advised that we have lost our court case and we need to pay developers legal fees / Our solicitor has suggested we appeal but I worried about further costs / has any one any idea what these are. Also If you lose your court case but dont want to complete without FOL what is the position

    We lost our court case a while back, we sought advice on what to do next from anywhere we could get any info, we decided after considering all advice that we had no other option but to appeal as there were many questions that no one could give us an answer.

    We have just receieved an email from our lawyer this week stating we have won our appeal, it says the developer is condemned to pay our money back along with the legal interest as well as our litigation costs in the first instance, regarding the appeal the the tribunal considers that each party must pay its own litigation costs.
    The tribunal of appeal in malaga will now forward the file to the tribunal in marbella.
    We shall see what happens.

    As for costs, that depends on what you have agreed with your lawyer, our appeal costs were approx 75% of first instance.

    You should speak to your lawyer regarding what will happen should you lose your appeal and dont want to complete without LFO.

    Its such a shame really as it should have all been so different, and somehow i am not sure its over yet.

    Good luck and hope things work out ok.

  • #85636
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ” Its such a shame really as it should have all been so different, and somehow i am not sure its over yet.”

    Yes, it a shame not only for the buyers, but it gives a bad name to the Country, its people, Construction industry, Legal profession and associated with it. What respect would you give to a Spanish Lawyer/Judge/member of the colegio when you meet them in a social gathering !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

    I, expect brown envelope falling out of their pockets, a person with no moral, dignity & and with the colegio as impotent and a body which has no standards to hold its profession in any esteem in the eyes of the public.

  • #85637
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Congratulations jc. A step in the right direction…at last!

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