CONFUSION.

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This topic contains 8 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 5 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #56214
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The problems that persist in Spain are of varying nature namely, Ley de Costa, Land grab, Bank guarantee, illegal builds, Corruption, Court delays, incompetant lawyers, poor managing Agents to name a few.

    Any one not involved with Spain will be confused to get a complete & a total picture of the scale its effects/tentacles.

    The various people who have different petitions going should join forces & use a fully comprehensive petition covering all aspects. I feel in the absence of this, it will help
    the Spanish to divide & rule, pass the buck etc.

  • #104441
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry, Shakeel, it’s not my intention to confuse but to clarify.

    As far as I’m aware, there are only 3 petitions ongoing.

    Suzanne’s all-embracing-issues petition is still open for signatures even though it was initially presented to various bodies some time ago – including being presented in person in the European Parliament’s Petitions Committee.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.com/

    Keith’s petition is specifically to do with Banking issues under Ley57/68 (the drawing up of bank Guarantees, the non-honouring of BGs, the non-issuing of BGs, etc). It is currently open.
    http://www.bankguaranteesinspain.com

    The third petition, for which I’m responsible, is a web-petition which will be open only until 31 May 2011. It is concerned only with the Road Shows which are being taken through six Northern European countries over the next 6 weeks and was drawn up to register our disapproval to the UK Minister for Europe of the whole concept of Spanish property promotion when so many of us are suffering from the total lack of justice when things go wrong.
    http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.html

    Please read Suzanne’s petition. It is VERY comprehensive.

    I assure you –
    We are all singing from the same hymn sheet.
    We all support one another.
    There is no conflict between us.
    All we want is justice.

    roots

  • #104442
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots, I was not pointing at you or for that matter on any body else. I am well aware that Politicians, civil servants etc are not gifted with lateral thinking and find it diffcult to see the larger picture when it does not suit them..

    You can see from the issue that Marta Adnderson raised. She was focusing on Ley de Costa where as we all know that issues are multiple and in many cases interconnected.

    You & I can see the issues as you have been either personally affected and in my case the bad name that this whole sad sage has given to Spain. The fact that there are three known petitions going will confuse the above mentioned

  • #104446
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    shakeel, hooray, I totally agree with you about those issues which Spain needs to address to restore some confidence in their property industry 😉

    Any merging of petitions and groups can only benefit IMO. 🙂

  • #104451
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Whilst supporting all the worthy aims of the intrepid campaigners I am quite confident that sadly it will make not one jot of difference.
    Moving the Spanish to change small things is bad enough but larger matters take more than a generation, or three, if even then.
    The reason I say this is because it’s all nothing knew.
    Thirty years ago when I first started in the property business in Spain exactly the same nefarious practices were common place.
    We protested, tried political pressure, and campaigned for change. Nothing happened.
    When Spain entered the EU they were reluctantly forced to make some small changes as a condition of membership. One of these was setting up a regional land registry. Such a basic requirement you would have thought.
    Only the ambitions of EU membership moved the government to act.
    I use this example to indicate and suggest that this and subsequent Spanish governments will only change their domestic laws and institutions if they have no other choice.
    They certainly will take absolutely no notice of pressure campaigns mounted either by individuals or members of the European Parliament.
    One explanation is Spanish machismo. The other is self interest.
    Foreigners in Spain who buy property or come on holiday have traditionally been viewed both by the population and the government as simply cash cows. Nothing more.
    The idea that the Spanish would feel any responsibility for their plight and difficulties at the hands of property developers or local and regional councils is a joke.
    They do not and never will.
    Spain is unlike most other EU countries. It has a long and recent cultural history of lawlessness, dictatorship, paternalism and corruption.
    The Government have only just this month agreed to release details to relatives of where all the bodies are buried from the civil war which ended in 1938. Relatives have been campaigning for justice ever since.
    What chance do a bunch of foreigners think they have seeking justice over a lost investment?
    Any foreigner who buys property in Spain is taking a risk with their capital.
    The majority of buyers are successful until the government or regional councils decide otherwise.
    They can and will wipe you out if it suits a purpose.
    No amount of protest will change the fact that the Spanish view the land and country as theirs to do with whatever they choose.
    All this said I wish everyone the best of luck. 🙂
    I do not say you should not try and change things. Just be aware of the likely outcome.

  • #104452
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve observed Spanish ways at close hand for around 20 years, and in that time invested both in businesses and properties, the properties being places for me to live in. I decided at an early stage that I would need to leave my British ways behind completely and join in totally, which is what I did.

    There were many occasions, especially at first, when I felt a twinge of conscience at some of the accepted practices of my new country, back in the UK we would have called it corruption, here in Spain it was just the normal way of doing business.

    I moved away from the Marbella area around 15 years ago, when the corrupt practices turned ridiculous in their scale and it’s small wonder that most of its prominent citizens are now before the courts. What did one of the accused say recently, “I wouldn’t even look at a piece of paper unless I was getting paid.” That was the Mayoress.

    It’s much the same in the Valencian province, but on a much lower, almost ‘manageable’ level. There also isn’t as much money flowing around.

    I feel sorry for all my country people who have been cheated by the system, it’s not a system you can understand from an English viewpoint, you need to think like a Spaniard to properly understand.

  • #104453
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ROCKER,
    SPOT ON.
    WHILST IT DOES’NT MAKE IT RIGHT. I’VE TRIED TO GET THIS POINT OVER ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS BUT BEEN SCORNED BY THE DOOM AND GLOOM MERCHANTS OFTEN. BUT FACT IS ITS VERY TRUE.
    WHAT DID THEY SAY, WHEN IN ROME!

  • #104455
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Whilst supporting all the worthy aims of the intrepid campaigners I am quite confident that sadly it will make not one jot of difference.
    Moving the Spanish to change small things is bad enough but larger matters take more than a generation, or three, if even then.
    The reason I say this is because it’s all nothing knew.
    Thirty years ago when I first started in the property business in Spain exactly the same nefarious practices were common place.
    We protested, tried political pressure, and campaigned for change. Nothing happened.
    When Spain entered the EU they were reluctantly forced to make some small changes as a condition of membership. One of these was setting up a regional land registry. Such a basic requirement you would have thought.
    Only the ambitions of EU membership moved the government to act.
    I use this example to indicate and suggest that this and subsequent Spanish governments will only change their domestic laws and institutions if they have no other choice.
    They certainly will take absolutely no notice of pressure campaigns mounted either by individuals or members of the European Parliament.
    One explanation is Spanish machismo. The other is self interest.
    Foreigners in Spain who buy property or come on holiday have traditionally been viewed both by the population and the government as simply cash cows. Nothing more.
    The idea that the Spanish would feel any responsibility for their plight and difficulties at the hands of property developers or local and regional councils is a joke.
    They do not and never will.
    Spain is unlike most other EU countries. It has a long and recent cultural history of lawlessness, dictatorship, paternalism and corruption.
    The Government have only just this month agreed to release details to relatives of where all the bodies are buried from the civil war which ended in 1938. Relatives have been campaigning for justice ever since.
    What chance do a bunch of foreigners think they have seeking justice over a lost investment?
    Any foreigner who buys property in Spain is taking a risk with their capital.
    The majority of buyers are successful until the government or regional councils decide otherwise.
    They can and will wipe you out if it suits a purpose.
    No amount of protest will change the fact that the Spanish view the land and country as theirs to do with whatever they choose.
    All this said I wish everyone the best of luck. 🙂
    I do not say you should not try and change things. Just be aware of the likely outcome.

    I Completely agree and couldn’t have put it better myself, you are hitting your head against a brick wall with Spain. I do hope everyone gets their money back, it is just a matter of when?? 🙁

  • #104460
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    jonas:

    no, it’s a question of ‘if’ not ‘when’ & that’s the problem.

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