Community Fees Payable ?

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This topic contains 33 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 8 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #53745
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi All

    Thousands of people are not completing for all sorts of reasons,some delaying as they cant or are trying to stop completing,some awaiting habitation licences etc.
    If developers win cases will outstanding or back dated fees be a charge on the property ❓

    COMMUNITY FEES ❓

    What is a community and what will it cost me?

    Nearly everyone buying a home in Spain will automatically become a member of a community. They will be expected to contribute financially to the community in line with their share or “coefficient”. This share is written into the title deeds “Escritura” of the purchased property and is not changeable except in rare circumstances (sub division etc.). The coefficient is calculated when the community is completed and, as a rule of thumb, is roughly proportional to the size of your apartment or house in relation to the overall size of the community.

    What you actually pay will be your share of any expenditure* agreed at an Annual General Meeting or an Extraordinary General Meeting. It is your responsibility to be aware of these charges and to pay them ignorance is no excuse and bills are not sent. There are two very good reasons for paying your community charges on time. The first is the moral issue as you are expecting your fellow owners to finance you if you do not pay and in some cases the community will deteriorate as, of course, the cleaners and gardeners won’t work for nothing. The second reason is that the community now has the ability to (through court action of course) freeze your bank account and seize the apartment. Of course this is always a last resort and time consuming but the community always wins and the costs are charged to the delinquent owner. The community can also apply penal charges to late payments and owners in debt have no voting rights at a meeting.

    Frank 8)

  • #79547
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Frank 🙂 Very thought-provoking, especially for those who have already completed on a property without an LFO.

    If my information is correct, that:
    It is now illegal to complete on a property without the LFO
    It is now illegal to rent out a property without the LFO

    How can community charges be enforced legally on these properties ❓

  • #79549
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If developers win cases will outstanding or back dated fees be a charge on the property

    No doubt as the developer has won the case!

  • #79550
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I would say that you cannot be responsible for community fees until you actually sign at the notary. Just a guess though, who knows in this country, does it depend on what side of the bed the Judge got out of or if there is an R in the month 😕

    On a re-sale although 10% is paid on signing the initial contract there is no liability to pay any fees for community or IBI until final completion.

  • #79552
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Community charges cannot be enforced on properties which are unihabitable by Law (i.e. no LFO/Habitation Licence).

    It is true that some of us are losing cases in regional courts, but on Appeal when cases reach the Supreme Court, maybe only then Spanish Law will be upheld.

  • #79553
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry Katy 🙂 we posted at the same time.

    And if Notaries are signing off these properties, they are breaking the law, as is any owner/agent who rents them out.

  • #79554
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It is amazing that not one spanish newspaper or TV station has covered this scandal of bending the laws. Even the spanish Government remains silent. Embassies monitor all the press and other media outlets, forums too! The Government will be fully aware of what is happening!

  • #79557
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I would say that you cannot be responsible for community fees until you actually sign at the notary

    That’s not what he asked, if the developer won the case then surely he would ask for costs not only of the court case but costs in keeping the property (community fees etc)

    Community charges cannot be enforced on properties which are unihabitable by Law (i.e. no LFO/Habitation Licence).

    That’s most developments in Marbella then! I would also suspect this is incorrect as we have just won a case against someone who has never paid their community fees and their apartment has been impounded and is now awaiting sale. We don’t have a LFO.

    If my information is correct, that:
    It is now illegal to complete on a property without the LFO
    It is now illegal to rent out a property without the LFO

    You forgot.
    It is illegal to have a unity contract

    Also
    Why pay IBI
    Why pay Wealth Tax
    Why pay Rubbish Tax

    Guess what I pay them all and would most likely be denounced if i didn’t

    Regards

    Paul

  • #79561
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @p800aul wrote:

    Community charges cannot be enforced on properties which are unihabitable by Law (i.e. no LFO/Habitation Licence).

    I would also suspect this is incorrect as we have just won a case against someone who has never paid their community fees and their apartment has been impounded and is now awaiting sale. We don’t have a LFO.

    Hi Paul – am really interested re. this point.
    Can I ask whether the owner of this particular apartment had completed or not? Am I correct in assuming they have?

    I get the feeling Suzanne and Katy are talking about the situation when someone has not completed, and whether they are legally liable to pay community fees or not, based on (supposedly 🙄 ) one is not legally obliged to complete without the said LFO…..despite recent court decisions.

    Frank’s post was taken from a much longer article originally written by David Nicholson entitled: “Entering a Community and the Role of the President”. As Mr. Nicholson does not touch anywhere in his article on the scenario of an illegal build without an LFO, one can assume all he wrote on this subject pertains to legal builds. He only advises caution to make sure there are no outstanding debts on the property before completing.

    Hi Frank – you ask “If developers win cases, will outstanding or back dated fees be a charge on the property?”. If the developers win cases forcing purchasers to complete where there is no LFO, I personally have not yet heard of any of these purchasers completing or paying back fees. All the ones I know of are going to appeal.
    Would be interesting to hear if completing and paying backdated fees in this situation has actually happened yet. It’s a good question.
    edited because I said ‘with’ instead of ‘without’. 😳

  • #79563
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie

    Can I ask whether the owner of this particular apartment had completed or not?

    Yes the apartment has been signed for, just never used, or rented but up for sale with our friends (The ones you meet with in Elviria).

    My point was in answer to the suggestion that Community charges cannot be enforced on properties which are uninhabitable by Law (i.e. no LFO/Habitation Licence). As you know our development doesn’t have a LFO (as many others in the area.) So to follow this suggestion as this owner doesn’t have a LFO and his apartment is not legally habitable he should not be legal bound to pay community charges. If that was the case then why would the court seize his apartment as they have?

    We have two more were we are going through the same process and as always with these things the community expects to win.

    As for whether one would have to pay if you lost in court over not completing due to a lack of an LFO. I would assume that the developer would sue for the money he believes he’s owed in lost community fees he has has paid on the property while he took the rightful owner (in his eyes) to court. Plus i believe that this sort of debt follows the property not the owner, so if he sold with the debt unpaid who would owe the money?

    In our development when the developer owned quite a few properties he didn’t pay his community fees until the day before the AGM, clearly this was a ploy first to make sure he didn’t pay community charges if he could sell with them attached. Secondly he need to pay before the AGM so he could vote at it, as you know debtors can’t vote at an AGM not matter how many properties he owns.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #79564
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The community debt goes with the property. I think the new owners are now only liable for two years. I cannot see any Lawyer advising anyone to sign with the slightest community fee owing, it would be deducted from the purchase price.

  • #79565
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Allegedly, Katy! 😯

  • #79566
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    What puzzles me is how a development can have a legally constitued community to take legal action if it does not have an LFO 😕

  • #79567
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Katy

    What puzzles me is how a development can have a legally constitued community to take legal action if it does not have an LFO

    based on

    Community charges cannot be enforced on properties which are unihabitable by Law (i.e. no LFO/Habitation Licence).

    It can’t, which is my point how can this “Community charges cannot be enforced on properties which are unihabitable by Law (i.e. no LFO/Habitation Licence)” be so?

    Regards

    Paul

  • #79569
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Thousands of people are not completing for all sorts of reasons,some delaying as they cant or are trying to stop completing,some awaiting habitation licences etc.
    If developers win cases will outstanding or back dated fees be a charge on the property ❓
    Frank 8)

    This is the original question by Frank that I responded to. I stand by my statement that:
    It is now illegal to complete on a property without the LFO
    It is now illegal to rent out a property without the LFO – applies to owners & agents.
    This has been so since April 2007.

    I suspect that the case Paul mentions refers to someone who had the choice to complete on a property without the LFO before the above Law was enforced.

    Maybe this is also why some people are now discovering they are named as ‘Developers’ on their Building Licences. This makes them responsible for roads, lighting etc etc and means they (rather than the true developer) can be taken to court for building illegally.

    As far as I am aware, most of us are suing the developers – not the other way around.

  • #79570
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In my opinion the liability of a buyer regarding the community fees begins after you sign the deed regardless of whether he has FLO or not but he can include a clause in the deed stating that “the house has not FLO granted therefore not habitable, for that reason the buyer is not liable for these fees until the FLO is granted”. We have to bear in mind that the deed is only other agreement, you can agree whatever you want according to law. Most of people thinks that the deed is an standard form unalterable.

  • #79571
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Felix,

    Are you saying that if a Notary now signs off a property without the LFO he is not breaking the law ❓

  • #79572
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    It depends on which Region, it is not a clear question, now we have a legal loophole in some Spanish Regions because in their Regional Acts is not provided anything about this obligation for notaries. For instance in Murcia a Notary can authorize the sign of purchase deeds because the regional act (Decreto Legislativo 1/2005) about this issue says nothing about the obligation of the “Notario” regarding the FLO. The Notaries say that is applicable the Regional Act not the General Act for Spain (Ley del Suelo). It is very difficult to argue with an official body like the Notarios because they are powerful interpreting law. It must be changed the law or issue some kind of Decree like in Catalunya where the role of the Notary is quiet important in this scrutinies. As you know, today in Andalucia Murcia or Valencia hundreds of deeds are signing without FLO and nothing happens

  • #79573
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks Felix. This explains why so many are confused & very frustrated. And also why so many are having to appeal over & over again to higher courts.

    Nice one, Frank ❗

  • #79575
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi All
    We appear to have no complete answer .
    As Paul has pointed out someone has just had their illegal property impounded for not paying.THIS WILL SPIRAL as those that dont pay will be looked on as freeloaders and damaging the value or the developments through lack of funds.
    Does it have mortage on this property.
    Now it cant be sold as its illegal ?
    Now it cant be rented as its illegal ?
    Now it cant be lived in as its illegal ?

    Now some of these cases may take 10 years to get through the courts and massive amounts of community fees will or could be held against the property and someone is going to want paying.
    Now what happens if the developer wins in court as is very likely to happen in his eyes and possibly the courts he has won and costs must surely be awarded including management fees that he has paid.?
    So he wins and its mortgage time?
    Dont pay the management fees and you cant get a mortgage with this charge on the property, even if management fees are not taken into account he may decide to take out a seperate action.
    What if someone dosent complete after these 10 years (example) and they loose in the courts.
    JUST WHO IS GOING TO PAY,AS THEY LOST THE CASE AND COSTS AND MANAGEMENT FEES WILL HAVE TO BE PAID.Wont they ?
    We are not talking small figures here and well worth them chasing the dept? .

    Frank 8)

  • #79579
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    In the past courts have been reluctant to rule against the property owner and it was difficult to get an embargo against the owner.
    Our community (no pool or gardens, just private villas) has been trying for years to get some owners to pay up. They have reduced the debt but many were written off.

  • #79581
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Katy
    May be Pauls posting is what happens now and in the future.
    The figures we are talking about now involve thousands of properties
    and multi million of euros.
    Somehow cant see things being sweeped under the counter in the future but this of course is just an opinion.
    Can see some problems ahead which ever way as existing residence that have been paying to try to keep developments going may just not be to happy as values are effected through lack of fees.

    Frank 8)

  • #79589
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just so every one is clear as to my meaning.

    The community is four years old

    The first year the president was the owner, the community was setup by him so he could get water and electricity I’m told you can’t without being a community. Owners completed during that year (including the one now seized). No committee so no one was aware of any debtors

    Second year the developer stayed on as the president and the committee was aware of debtors but nothing was done (the developer was one of the main debtors)

    Third year we took over the presidency and at the AGM the meeting voted to start action over any owner with more than six months community fees outstanding.

    Fourth year after reaffirmation from the AGM we pursue four owners and two i think paid one last month was sized and one still to come soon.

    So it’s happening now, all the while we don’t have a LFO.

    It is now illegal to complete on a property without the LFO
    It is now illegal to rent out a property without the LFO – applies to owners & agents.
    This has been so since April 2007

    Apartments without a LFO are being brought and sold (and rented) all the time are you saying that if someone buys an apartment in our development today (without a LFO) “Community charges cannot be enforced.”

    How cool is that, I sell my apartment to a mate, he sells it back to me in two months and I don’t have to pay community charges, wealth tax, IBI etc plus i can sue my mate for selling me a illegal property and he sues me for the same. Silly I know but you get my point I hope 🙂

    At the end of the day community fees are just that, for the community and should be paid, if you haven’t completed yet the developer should be paying them, if he doesn’t he should be pursued by the president (tricky I know if he is the president) If no one pays the development will go to rats pooh and no one will want to be there including the rats

    My advice to you Frank if lack of fees is a problem of your development is get hold of the MD of the administration company you use and ask him what the hell is going on.

    Regards

    Paul

  • #79591
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Paul 800
    The whole meaning of this thread is to point out the situation regarding management fees and habitation licences etc
    Thanks Paul but it was not asking for personal advice as there are not enough apartments sold to even contemplate what you suggest
    The developer is doing a grand job unlike dozens of others that I see on other developments and the rats and the poo are not far away.
    The point I was making is if he wins his case then he may be awarded costs for doing such a grand job.
    The posting of comments regarding what you cant do if you have no L.F.O was taken from one of the forum solicitors and like you I live rent and could sell ?(me more difficult than you perhaps)
    This point was made as it really does need clarification. :evil:and no better I feel with input of regular posters who combined have a wealth fof knowledge and contacts.

    Thanks away
    Frank 8)

  • #79597
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Frank – I know on your development, some while back, the developer was threatening legal action on those who didn’t complete and extra fines on top of the back maintenance/community fees owed. Do you know if they pursued this threat with anyone?

  • #79601
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie
    Not that I am aware of,however as you know only a limited amount have completed and as the up keep is good it must be costing a fortune and this development is not alone.
    How long can developers or banks carry on paying management fees without some sort of security.
    Perhaps I am wrong Charlie but feel that this is another ticking bomb that may bite both the ones that have completed, those that have yet to complete if they loose their case and also potentially those that choose to walk away.
    Just seems someone is going to be made to pay and no guessing who the Spanish system will come after given half a chance.

    Frank 8)
    Charlie 🙂 Have you noticed that I am the only one that does not get a red flag against my last posting.

  • #79602
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Frank, I absolutely agree with you. The whole subject of developers having to cover for lack of completing purchasers is exactly that – a ticking time bomb and a huge problem. I do feel extremely sorry for those who have completed and are possibly struggling to ensure maintenance, gardens and general upkeep are kept up and all without the security of a good 100% fully-supported resident’s committee and all that goes with a successfully-run development.
    Please don’t get me wrong and I’m not adding salt to the wound, but the developers in this situation had to have known that one-day the corrupt way of getting permissions to build these developments, knowing it was against the Junta’s PGOU plan, was going to one-day bite them in the rear. Unfortunately it’s the likes of yourself who have completed and just want a worry-free apartment in the sun on a well-run development who are on a bit of a knife-edge with worry about the future. If the LFO is eventually forthcoming which I think most of us believe it will, how much better it will be if it is sooner rather than later.

  • #79603
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Charlie 🙂 Have you noticed that I am the only one that does not get a red flag against my last posting.

    Do you mean the red circle with the cross in the middle for ‘delete this post’?

  • #79605
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @Just Frank wrote:
    Charlie 🙂 Have you noticed that I am the only one that does not get a red flag against my last posting.

    Do you mean the red circle with the cross in the middle for ‘delete this post’?

    I think Frank means the red indicator when a new post has been added to a thread. I suspect you only see this Frank when another poster has added something new. It wouldn´t need to show your own last post as you would know what it said. Probably something to do with cookies or whatever.

  • #79606
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie + Peter

    Yep and the red thingy doesnt come up when I post.

    Think I know what it is. 🙂 My post is from Billy no Mates. 😆

    Frank 8)

  • #79609
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Charlie
    Oh yes this developer like so many others must have known that this would bite them in the arse . 👿
    Still wont stop em trying to get these fees back though 😈
    At the moment I am not concerned YET as this development is looking good but for how long if the courts take years to sort out.
    Thankfully a few more appear to be completing but this only takes slight pressure off the developers or Banks.
    This thread was started to put forward an issue that many feel it may not be of concern to them.
    Reading on some of the threads real horror stories of developments being left to go to ruins.
    Years to come they have to decide to complete on these developments,loose their deposits or pay anyway to help bring the developments up to scratch.
    Now why do I feel that some residence who have been paying for years may feel none to happy having to fork out extra to make up for the shortfall in revenue.
    Pauls posting regarding taking of property may be common in the future.
    Another nightmare which I am sure will form further threads in the future while the innocent continue to get kicked around at will.
    Talk about commercial suicide it beggers belief 😈

    Frank 8)

  • #79616
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    Pauls posting regarding taking of property may be common in the future.

    I think the scenario of people completing but not paying their fees as in Paul’s example will be rare as against the norm.
    The biggest problem at the moment are the amount of apartments sold but not completed on for all the various reasons. It’s all the fees not being paid on these apartments that are clogging up the works…for perhaps a long time to come. If the development had been legal to start with this situation wouldn’t even be, it would be full of happy residents happily contributing their fees….including me.
    Just think Frank, we would have/could have been neighbours, both in Torquay and Elviria. 😀

  • #79617
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I hear your development is very well kept from friends. The developer is still actively selling them (seen lots of signs) so it is in his interest to keep everything looking nice.

  • #79627
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy
    Thats one thing positive that I have and some more are completing by all accounts,
    Charlie 😆 Now we really would be neighbours from hell 😈 😆 and property prices really would dive
    Trevor Mc Donald soap series. 😆
    “PROPERTY VALUES FALL IN MARBELLA BY 95% OVERNIGHT”

    Frank 8)

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