BLACK MONEY

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 10 years ago.

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  • #52468
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi,everybody.
    My wife and I visited the Valenca area twice this year,to look at a load of properties for a holiday home.
    After returning home after the second trip we contacted one of the agents we had viewed properties with,and but an offer on a very nice reformed town house,and agreed a deal around the 170.000 euro mark,we had every intention of purchasing the house without a mortgage,but within days decided to get a mortgage for 70%,as the interest rates are so low,we got a mortgage offer of 3.99% with OK set up fees.
    We then waited an age many weeks to any info on letter headed paper from the agent,lawyer and bank,we still 2 months latter have nothing,we paid a 3000.00 holding deposit to the agent via our bank in the UK.
    On the contract sent to us on plain paper with no reference to the agent,it was agreed that the property would be declared at no more than 70% of the valuation,and told that this is normal and it would save us tax.
    However,as time has gone on we have been looking at lots of forums,and we are starting to think long and hard,we have advised the agent that we want the full value declared,they have not said anything,but the seller has said that he only agreed to the price subject to the 70% being decared,but he may move on this as we are buying the house furnished.
    Please advise as you see fit.Thank you[/b]

  • #67520
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In our experience, NOTHING is ever written on headed paper in Spain!! Stick to your guns on what you feel comfortable with re the declared value of the property. Money in brown envelopes is extremely foolish & illegal now.

  • #67521
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have a look at Page 4 of this forum under the heading “Black Money”. Pretty sobering stuff. It probably tells you all you need to know.

    Snowy

  • #67522
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As the agent took the deposit from you directly, there is a high probability that he is playing a common double contract game. That is to say, he has one price agreed with you (the marketing price) and another lower price (the net price) agreed with the seller. Of course, the only way to get away with this is by claiming that the seller needs black money.

    Another very popular, and very profitable, game is for a supposed agent to sign an exchange contract with the seller with a long delay before completion – say three or six months. The agent then sells the property for twice as much by pretending he is simply an instructed estate agent.

    All of the profit then goes straight into his pocket and the taxman is aware of nothing as his name appears on no official documents. Pulling off this stunningly profitable trick requires naive and trusting buyers and sellers who are happy to ‘save’ on their taxes by using black money.

    As the agent was not able to supply any headed paper for a deposit receipt I would suspect that he is trading illegally. He may try to cover his tracks – and add insult to injury – by offering you the opportunity to save VAT by paying him in black money too.

    Did you obtain any references or find any background information about the agent?

  • #67523
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    In our experience, NOTHING is ever written on headed paper in Spain!! Stick to your guns on what you feel comfortable with re the declared value of the property. Money in brown envelopes is extremely foolish & illegal now.

    A bit unfair Claire. ๐Ÿ˜‰ However, true to say that nothing dodgy is ever written on paper.

  • #67526
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    No NOT unfair Rawlins. As I said “In our experience”. This is perfectly true. My husband asked until he was blue in the face, to have certain written items from our original lawyer(the one who signed our original purchase contract) to be on headed company paper and not once did this happen. Our second lawyer was the same. Money we paid to them in cash, in person, was not receipted on headed paper until my husband insisted that it was . He also had to ask for it to be signedand dated by the senior lawyer dealing with our case.
    Our current lawyer was different. When we engaged him, he gave us a contract of engagement on his company notepaper, signed by himself.

    Don’t tell me what is fair or unfair please. ๐Ÿ˜• We’ve suffered”unfair” in Spain by the lorry load!! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Black money by under declaring the value of a property is illegall, so we are told by you lawyers! ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #67527
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    My experience of living in Valencia tells me that honest traders and professionals will always give written receipts for deposits and quotations – if asked.

    I am sorry that you have suffered unfair experiences – my opinion may be coloured by the fact that I have not suffered any notable unfairness.

    Touch wood.

  • #67528
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rawlins I hope it remains so for you ๐Ÿ™‚

    Back to the original poster, my guess is the agent is going to “skim” the “black money” for himself.

  • #67529
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    Rawlins I hope it remains so for you ๐Ÿ™‚

    Back to the original poster, my guess is the agent is going to “skim” the “black money” for himself.

    Yes, I suspect he is probably helping himself to a generous ‘commission‘.

  • #67531
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I must say I have to agree with Claire on this!
    i also have never been dealt a “fair ” hand in spain, even when I had to resort to going through the courts the outcome still was not “fair”so it is difficult to have a positive outlook in the absence of fairness , in my case anyway.
    My motto is from now on is Thrust nobody!! I understand it is a sad case of affairs but it was circumstances that made me so!!

    However!!! best of luck Shadow!!

  • #67535
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    bettyboo

    Quote:
    My motto is from now on is Thrust nobody!!

    Or alternatively shaft everybody who fails to use smellchekker

  • #67536
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    That is sooooooo funny!!! ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #67537
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜†

    Quick! ๐Ÿ˜€

  • #67538
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    bettyboo

    that seems to be the problem, if the courts are not coming down hard enough on those who are very obviously in the wrong, then where is the incentive for the sharks to change their ways? Why on earth should you have to go through hoops in spain, just to find an honest lawyer that can convince a court to give you a fair result, when to the man in the street, the decision is as clear as the nose on your face!

    I realise it’s all about money, but that’s no exuse for the system being crap, it justs needs sorting out by whoever is in a high enough position to do so, …….and quickly!

  • #67541
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    DEAR RAWLINS,
    THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE,BUT WE HAVE BEEN TO THE AGENTS OFFICE AND CHECKED THAT THEY ARE REGISTERED WITH THE “ASOCIACION DE PROMOTORES INMOBILIARIOS,CONSTRUCTOERES Y AGENTES URBANIZADORES DE LA SAFOR”,WHICH THE ABOVE BODY DO RECOGNISE THIS AGENT,HOWEVER,THIS DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NOT HAD ANY COPIES OF ORIGINALS PRINTED ON LETTER HEADED PAPER FFOM THE AGENT/LAWYER OR BANK AS YET.
    AND THAT THE LAWYER ONLY ANSWERS E-MAILS LATE AT NIGHT.

  • #67542
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This association sounds better than nothing – but do not put too much faith in it. I am sure all the members could sit comfortably around a lunchtime restaurant table.

    Your next step is to take control.

    Get your own lawyer – somebody who answers emails quickly and is not known to the agent or seller. Insist on exchanging contracts face-to-face with the vendors. If you decide to tempt fate and go down the black money route, then make sure that it you who hands out the cash and not the agent.

    Good luck and stay on your guard.

    By the way, your bank should be able to give you a binding mortgage offer – termed an oferta vinculante but you may well have to ask.

  • #67550
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    HI AGAIN RAWLINS,
    WE HAVE MADE IT CLEAR TO THE SELLING AGENT THAT UNLESS THE FULL VALUE IS PUT ON THE TITLE DEED,WE WILL NOT GO AHEAD WITH OUR OFFER,AND ASK FOR OUR HOLDING DEPOSIT TO BE RETURNED,AS WE DO NOT WANT ANY PROBLEMS THAT MAY CAUSE THE TAX MAN TO COME LOOKING.
    WE HAVE ALSO BEEN TOLD THAT THE SOLICITOR HAS SENT VIA THE POST ALL INFORMATION HE HAS ON THE PROPERTY FROM THE TOWN HALL ETC,HOWEVER NOTHING HAS COME AS YET, THE MORTGAGE COMPANY UCI PART OF THE BANK OF SANTANDER HAVE BEEN GREAT(THATS FOR YOU JOHN)AND GIVEN GOOD ADVICE TO DATE.
    HOWEVER I AM STARTING TO THINK THAT IT IS THE BRITS WHO ARE KILLING THE SPANISH PROPERTY MARKET,BY OFFERING CASH FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS WITHOUT FULLY UNDERSTANDING WHY,BECAUSE THEY ARE TOLD I THINK THAT THIS WILL SAVE THEM MONEY ON PURCHASE TAXES,BUT THEY NEVER ASK THE QUESTION ABOUT SALE TAXES AS THEIR CONCERN IS ABOUT BUYING NOT SELLING,AND BY THE TIME THEY UNDERSTAND THIS THEY ARE HIT WITH A 35% CGT BILL OR 5% OF THE SALE VALUE BEING HELD AFTER SELLING BY THE NOTARY,AM I CORRECT ON THIS MATTER.

  • #67551
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well… it sounds like you have things under control.

    Yes, you are right. Too many Brits focus only on the purchase and forget the inevitable resale and CGT. In fact, many Brits ask no questions at all – apart from ‘how much do I have to pay?’.

  • #67552
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Shadow

    on a side note and nothing to do with the thread…have you heard of caps lock?

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