Bank Guarantees/Will You Ever Win

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This topic contains 21 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 8 years, 2 months ago.

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  • #54326
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi All.
    Just though I would pop a look and perhaps you could do with a new thread so hope you dont mind if I start one and if its of interest you guys just carry on 😆

    One for discussion ❓

    Thousands upon thousands of people are in the process of claiming on banks guarantees.
    This in all cases is a very costly legal procedure and will take years in almost all cases to sort.
    Now with banks and financial institutions going belly up almost by the day who really has not taken into account that should you win your claim for illegal build, habitation licence or delayed completion there is no way the Banks could pay out in mass on depreciating assets and will just go tits up like the rest
    Then there will be take overs and I wouldn’t mind betting that they will cherry pick and accept no liabilities being your Bank guarantee.
    Poll your answers and all opinions are very welcome.

    BUY 😉

    Just Frank 8)

  • #86257
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Gosh – is it really thousands and thousands? I had no idea it was so many.

    These numbers are not sustainable and will threaten the already weakened position of the banks, so my answer is NO. The banks will find a way of avoiding paying out ‘one way or the other’.

    How on Earth have we managed to get ourselves into this mess?

  • #86264
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Under Spanish Law the banks and the Courts have no right to refuse to pay out on legitimate claims, eg, no build, (as in our case but the Bank still appealed!!) developer going bust, illegal build, late build (1+ years). I’m sure there are other examples. BUT…they do not abide by their own laws.

    The result of the poll is personal speculation and will make no difference to the corrupt situation in Spain at all re BGs. If it did then I would start a Poll on whether Gordon Brown should stay or go. I would if I thought it would have any clout!! 😉

    One way to put an end to this problem would be to only pay the developer a small deposit, and pay upon completion if the property is legal and as per building spec. Forget BG’s, they are worthless it appears. This would stop over development as if the developer did not have the funds to build endlessly, then it wouldn’t happen. Millions of properties would not be left standing empty. They would have to sell one project to start the next. I know it’s closing the door after the horses have bolted. JMO.

  • #86267
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    It is a NO in my opinion. Even the ones who have been paid out seem to have had to use a Lawyer and go to court. That is not the spirit of a Guarantee.

    Be interested to see what happens now some of the large developers have gone bust eg. Martin Fadesa. Will the banks pay up on the Guarantees or will the prospective purchasers have to go down as creditors.

  • #86270
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire/Katy

    love the small deposit idea.

    It’s just regulation/corruption again though isn’t it?. In a common sense system, those in a position of trust, responsible for not delivering on their promise would be treated as harshly as you would expect, and the innocent victim served justice without having to get near a court room…….but not in Spain!

  • #86272
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    claire:

    Buying off plan with a BG should not be a problem, it allows the developer cash flow, the buyer pays in stages which is good for them & their cash flow & they have a guarantee that if it does go wrong they are protected, & there is a simple solution, the banks should honour the BG as the law demands! After all the developer has already paid for the BG. But this is Spain & they seem to be able to ignore the law (their law) when they want.

    It has to come from central government that the banks obey the law.

  • #86276
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    they have a guarantee that if it does go wrong they are protected, & there is a simple solution, the banks should honour the BG as the law demands!

    But that’s the whole crux of the problem………THEY DON’T HONOUR THE BANK GUARANTEE!! They have just lulled people into a false sense of security.

  • #86285
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Claire 🙂
    Most postings we make are speculation and personal opinions.
    This is possibly the most important question or pole thats going to effect the outcome in the justice we are looking for.
    This is a legally binding agreement with the countries legal /financial system.
    If we cant get justice there then what hope is their in the cases we are fighting.
    The YES started strong and the No is pushing ahead so consider it just may be interesting to see what peoples opinions are.
    By the look of the hits on the site since last night I think many may be very interested in getting our opinions and speculation views based on our/your experiences
    TAKE IT YOUR A NO THEN ?
    Just Frank 8)

  • #86287
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Perversely, I’m a YES!! (thinking positive that eventually the banks will have to pay up 😉 )

    Most postings we make are speculation and personal opinions.

    TRUE.

    This is possibly the most important question or pole thats going to effect the outcome in the justice we are looking for.

    It would be nice to think it (poll result) will have an effect on the justice. If only it were that simple. Personally, I am negative on that one.

  • #86293
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In our case – final resolution received this week – our bank guarantee has proved worthless. The bank refuses to honour it and the judges uphold the bank.

    At our first hearing the judge ordered the bank to pay up. The bank then appealed and the verdict was reversed. We appealed that resolution but lost again. In their reasoning, the three judges who reviewed the case took ‘evidence’ from someone unconnected with the case (pick a name, any name) and disregarded the ‘evidence’ given on oath by the Town Hall architect saying that the build was not completed on time, was illegal and had no LFO. Our lawyer submitted an objection: we have now heard that the judges, while admitting that they made a mistake, have upheld their verdict because of the evidence given by the developers’ lawyer in defence of the bank which was to say that the development WAS completed on time!

    Belief beggared.

    roots

  • #86297
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    roots

    what can you say? What a bloody farce. These judges are clearly not fit for the job and should themselves face a prison sentence in my opinion.

    If ever the EU ought to step in, this is it. Spain’s justice system is to often a bad joke. If you lose this there simply is NO justice.

    For heavens sake, what on earth is someone who doesn’t know (or want to know) right from wrong, doing in that position.

    WHAT A BUNCH OF LIARS AND CHEATS!

  • #86304
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire. 🙂
    You posted
    It would be nice to think it (poll result) will have an effect on the justice. If only it were that simple. Personally, I am negative on that one.
    _________________________________________________________
    It would in fact be plain stupid to think that a (poll result )would have an effect on justice.
    The bank guarantees will form the future of the results gained in legal systems many of us are involved in.

    As Rootes ( sorry to hear that Rootes) has just found out the bank guarantees are a farce and with the vast combined experience on on this forum feel many would appreciate your valued views.
    Now you go tell Rootes that you believe the Banks are going to pay out being a YES Poller 😉

    Just Frank 8)

  • #86305
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots and I know each other very well. Anything I have to say will be said privately.

  • #86307
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Claire,

    You’re a genius. The answer is so simple. Pay a tiny deposit and the rest on completion. That would knock the whole problem on the head with one simple stroke. And Bank Guarantees become redundant.

  • #86308
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    Or follow the supposedly third world Moroccan way – you pay a reservation deposit then partial payments as the floor levels go up – ground floor doesnt count, and the whole once fully completed. There they do not understand the concept of buying something that is going to happen at sometime!

  • #86312
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez,
    The system that you refer to in Morocco, is taken from the French. I personally like the system. The buyers effectively finance the construction so there is no bank interest cost and as such does not get loaded to the cost of the unit that a buyer would pay.

    The, buyer can monitor the progress. All stage payments that are based on construction progress are demanded by the notary after he/she has received an architect certificate confirming works/value added since the last payment was demand.

    The final payment of 5% is paid once all the snagging is complete etc. So no pressure is applied to complete, if the property has not been finished to specification, contract etc.

    Whilst no system is perfect. I feel the French, off plan system is the safest & securest system I have come across.

  • #86361
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    I agree with you Shakeel – you can see whats happening and the uilder cannot take money for what does not exist. In Spain the off-plan scenario doesnt really exist as the Spanish do not recognize buying a contract where there is no substance.

    People bought the rights to a property but as it didnt actaully exist at the time it was a bit of an anomally. I guess this is why so many had something entirely different to what they actually thought they had purchased!

  • #86364
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez, No system is full proof. If there is no good faith. The Spanish may not be aware of buying off plan. The Spanish were also not use to living without Franco.

    Good faith & acting on what was written in the contract, customer goodwill goes far in establishing a good practise.

  • #86366
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    How do the dodgy agents such as the one we can’t mention handle sales in Morocco? Do they stick to the low deposit etc?

  • #86367
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Inez

    surely, if the end result is not as the details in the contract then the buyer has the right to claim breach of contract, whatever the contract is for!

    In any decent system ,the breacher of the contract would be seen to be in the wrong and treated as such. The buyer would then be under no obligation to purchase, and would have the right to have their deposit returned, or to negotiate a discount to reflect the breach.

    If that basic common sense approach was adhered to, then the current system could have worked.

    Sadly, it seems a system must be designed to accept that if a contract is broken, then the guilty party may not be forced to face justice? Utter madness!!

    I agree, the system in Morocco does sound better, but still must rely on some kind of honesty at some stage. The 5% final withheld payment doesn’t sound much compared to the cost of what could be wrong at the final stage?

  • #86371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The final 5% is a token amount per say. All the other payments prior to this stage are as stated in my earlier post i.e. stage payments are accompanied by the Architect’s certificate during the construction stage.

  • #86729
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Now a couple of weeks later .

    Who now thinks the banks will pay out on Guarantees. 😯

    Surely we may end up adding our names to a list of thousands upon thousands others that have Bank Guarantees when and if some of the Banks go belly up as we know they will.

    Which Spanish Banks can guarantee their savers for that matter only the Germans would do that ?
    Well they would wouldnt they 😉

    As can be seen today depositors with there own money in the Banks look likely to loose anything over £50 K and possibly more. 😯

    I like many have a court case going on against my Bank Guarantee so perhaps I have more of an interest in this matter than those that have nothing to loose.
    Now thousands upon thousands of people must asking the same questions
    1 Am I paying thousands or Euros in legal fees and if I am lucky in a few years to have a straight Judge and win the Banks cant pay anyway.
    If not they should be.
    2 If you are on stage payments you have to continue paying even though the building has stopped or YOUR in breach of contract and loose.
    If you continue to make payments and the developer and Banks go belly up then you loose as well
    Think I have as about as much chance of getting my money through a real genuine claim against the Banks (Not late completion etc/LFO)as propertiy values doubling next year.
    Developer is my only chance.
    Bank Guarantees in Spain is this subject and not what France/Germany or Iran do with how property is financed.
    I for one get fed up and insulted up with solicitors making statements that make it sound as though its a formality to claim on a Bank Guarantee when this is a load of crap so lets have some facts.
    .

    Thats a rant Kingy ?

    Kingy . I am still cool man. super cool for that matter 8) 8)

    Just ICE Cool Frank 8)

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