Article in OPP Bulletin – Spanish Banks stifling agents

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  • #55752
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi,

    I think I am allowed to do this and I don’t think anyone will mind. This is article that was in the bulleting from Overseas Property Professional magazine. Ok, their journalism isn’t the most objective but I would like to know what the forum thinks. Sorry I have to cut and paste but the article is through subscription only.
    I would like to see where we are going with this one before I post my own opinion on the subject:

    Spains’ banks are stifling its recovery

    Spain’s banks are deliberately stifling the property recovery they are desperate to see by screwing agency commission rates down to 1.5% to 3%; and by forcing developers to the wall.

    Agents and developers are getting increasingly frustrated with the inept way in which the Spanish banks are trying to offload their huge glut of repossessed properties.

    “It’s a mess,” says Greg Butcher of developers Ocean Village Gibraltar. “The Spanish banks just don’t respect property agents. They see them as reactive and not pro-active. And they don’t feel that they can justify to their shareholders giving reasonable commission rates to an agency right now.”

    According to Butcher, “the banks are happy keeping the agencies to 1.5% to 3% (perhaps 5% at best if you make a special case.) They are not ready to go anywhere near a proper 10% commission rate yet.”

    The end-result is that there is not enough margin in the process to attract good quality agencies and, says Butcher, “the market is not going to move. We keep telling the banks that there is nothing wrong with the concept of Spain and that north European buyers will come back, but not until they start controlling their price discounts properly and the start to bring in a much more professional and aggressive approach to sales.”

    Ian Waudby of Crest Group International agrees. “We come across master agents who get 5% but most agencies are struggling on 1.5% to 3% commission rates and that is not going to change. It is a very, very difficult situation … there is no margin for the sales network to reinvest and lots of agencies are not going to be able to make a profit.”

    To make matters worse, banks like Santander and BBVA have set up their own internal sales agencies … but they are domestically focused and the staff involved often only speak Spanish.

    “Their strategy was to wait for a summer rush in sales,” says Greg Butcher. “A rush that is not going to come. We’ve had dozens of meetings with the banks and told them that their internal agencies are not going to be any good at selling to north European buyers, who will be the real market when things come back.”

    Miguel Martinez-Marino of Bancaja Habitat is trying a different route on behalf of his bank. He will give “between 5% and 10% commission depending on the volume of properties sold,” he says. “We have decided to use a network of agencies in the UK and we are finding buyers for sure. Confidence and interest levels are increasing again … but outside of Spain.” Bancaja is finding properties priced between €90k and €200k on the Costa Blanca are doing well, along with “any apartment on the Mediterranean coast.”

    Martinez-Marino has sold 1,528 properties so far this year and he is finding that lucrative finance deals from the parent bank are working well to boost confidence levels. Bancaja is offering an 80% mortgage with nothing to pay for the first three years. After that there is a range of options with borrowing periods up to 50 years and a rate pegged to the Euribor plus 1.2%.

    Ocean Village Gibraltar estimates that Spain’s banks now have more than 180,000 repossessed homes on their books. And the volumes are so great that it is squeezing out new developments. “This whole process has been putting projects on hold and causing developers to go bust for at least a year now,” says Butcher. “The banks are obsessed with their repossessions and new build is having to wait while they work out what to do.”

  • #99855
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    Do you really think that Bank’s works for other peoples benefit.

  • #99662
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Do you really think that Bank’s works for other peoples benefit.

  • #99859
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    1.5% to 3% commission is not enough ??

    Where do you get more ? at least not in germany

  • #99664
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    1.5% to 3% commission is not enough ??

    Where do you get more ? at least not in germany

  • #99861
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well you will be surprised to know that most are demanding between 10-18% because if not their business is not “profitable”. Let’s face it, someone could easily live on the commissions of 2 sales a year, hardly the property professional I would sign a collaboration contract with.

    My problem with what is said in the article is that most of the builders have been totally abandoned by agents in favour of the repossessions in the hands of the banks. I can hardly understand the “boo-hoo” of this agent going on about 1.5-3% commissions. Of course, 1.5% of the 60,000 € rubbish most of them flog is hardly interesting if you are not shifting at least 10 units a month and believe me, no one is shifting that many at this time.
    Also, hefty commissions just isn’t on the cards anymore. Most leads are going to be internet generated anyway and unless you have a massive PPC campaign, and these leads are far more cost effective than any other channel of lead acquirement.
    Its a waste of time and money advertising in the press and glossy magazines and property exhibitions only attract a certain type of public that is not my target (I don’t know if they are anyone elses).
    Remember I am always talking about the property I build, which is in the 250.000 € range. I think that advertising in press and glossy mags of the sector are really much more geared towards bargain hunters.

  • #99665
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well you will be surprised to know that most are demanding between 10-18% because if not their business is not “profitable”. Let’s face it, someone could easily live on the commissions of 2 sales a year, hardly the property professional I would sign a collaboration contract with.

    My problem with what is said in the article is that most of the builders have been totally abandoned by agents in favour of the repossessions in the hands of the banks. I can hardly understand the “boo-hoo” of this agent going on about 1.5-3% commissions. Of course, 1.5% of the 60,000 € rubbish most of them flog is hardly interesting if you are not shifting at least 10 units a month and believe me, no one is shifting that many at this time.
    Also, hefty commissions just isn’t on the cards anymore. Most leads are going to be internet generated anyway and unless you have a massive PPC campaign, and these leads are far more cost effective than any other channel of lead acquirement.
    Its a waste of time and money advertising in the press and glossy magazines and property exhibitions only attract a certain type of public that is not my target (I don’t know if they are anyone elses).
    Remember I am always talking about the property I build, which is in the 250.000 € range. I think that advertising in press and glossy mags of the sector are really much more geared towards bargain hunters.

  • #99865
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    “It’s a mess,” says Greg Butcher of developers Ocean Village Gibraltar. “The Spanish banks just don’t respect property agents. They see them as reactive and not pro-active. And they don’t feel that they can justify to their shareholders giving reasonable commission rates to an agency right now.”
    According to Butcher, “the banks are happy keeping the agencies to 1.5% to 3% (perhaps 5% at best if you make a special case.) They are not ready to go anywhere near a proper 10% commission rate yet.”

    a proper 10% commission!!! If you need this sort of commission rate to be profitable, you either bery bad at your job or receive very few clients. Alternatively, they never bothered to invest in marketing, etc… and are reliant on a chain of agencies to generate client and have to split everything commission at least 3 ways.

  • #99667
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    “It’s a mess,” says Greg Butcher of developers Ocean Village Gibraltar. “The Spanish banks just don’t respect property agents. They see them as reactive and not pro-active. And they don’t feel that they can justify to their shareholders giving reasonable commission rates to an agency right now.”
    According to Butcher, “the banks are happy keeping the agencies to 1.5% to 3% (perhaps 5% at best if you make a special case.) They are not ready to go anywhere near a proper 10% commission rate yet.”

    a proper 10% commission!!! If you need this sort of commission rate to be profitable, you either bery bad at your job or receive very few clients. Alternatively, they never bothered to invest in marketing, etc… and are reliant on a chain of agencies to generate client and have to split everything commission at least 3 ways.

  • #99867
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    a proper 10% commission!!! If you need this sort of commission rate to be profitable, you either bery bad at your job or receive very few clients. Alternatively, they never bothered to invest in marketing, etc… and are reliant on a chain of agencies to generate client and have to split everything commission at least 3 ways.[/quote]

    Totally in agreement with you. Have we opened Pandora’s box talking about abusive commission rates???

    There are some agents that do carry out marketing campaigns but they first come crying to the builder first for up front payments of future commissions to finance their great marketing actions!

  • #99668
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    a proper 10% commission!!! If you need this sort of commission rate to be profitable, you either bery bad at your job or receive very few clients. Alternatively, they never bothered to invest in marketing, etc… and are reliant on a chain of agencies to generate client and have to split everything commission at least 3 ways.[/quote]

    Totally in agreement with you. Have we opened Pandora’s box talking about abusive commission rates???

    There are some agents that do carry out marketing campaigns but they first come crying to the builder first for up front payments of future commissions to finance their great marketing actions!

  • #99869
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @sunwind wrote:

    1.5% to 3% commission is not enough ??

    Where do you get more ? at least not in germany

    Its 1 to 1.5% in the UK isn’t it? 10% in the USA

  • #99669
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @sunwind wrote:

    1.5% to 3% commission is not enough ??

    Where do you get more ? at least not in germany

    Its 1 to 1.5% in the UK isn’t it? 10% in the USA

  • #99871
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    The real problem is trying to actually deal with the Spanish Banks.

    I gave up on them years ago as their prices were higher than the equivalent I had on my books, they would never set an actual price and stick to it, it was always between one and 2 points and they didn’t want to pay fees – I’m only 2.5% and always have been – but they don’t like paying anything!

    The main problem I had was their prices being higher than directly from owners.

  • #99671
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    The real problem is trying to actually deal with the Spanish Banks.

    I gave up on them years ago as their prices were higher than the equivalent I had on my books, they would never set an actual price and stick to it, it was always between one and 2 points and they didn’t want to pay fees – I’m only 2.5% and always have been – but they don’t like paying anything!

    The main problem I had was their prices being higher than directly from owners.

  • #99877
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    The real problem is trying to actually deal with the Spanish Banks.

    I gave up on them years ago as their prices were higher than the equivalent I had on my books, they would never set an actual price and stick to it, it was always between one and 2 points and they didn’t want to pay fees – I’m only 2.5% and always have been – but they don’t like paying anything!

    The main problem I had was their prices being higher than directly from owners.

    When I looked at their web-sites this was exactly the impression I got.
    To me it didn´t look that there were any “bargains”, most resales seemed to be overpriced and in a very bad condition.

  • #99677
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @inez wrote:

    The real problem is trying to actually deal with the Spanish Banks.

    I gave up on them years ago as their prices were higher than the equivalent I had on my books, they would never set an actual price and stick to it, it was always between one and 2 points and they didn’t want to pay fees – I’m only 2.5% and always have been – but they don’t like paying anything!

    The main problem I had was their prices being higher than directly from owners.

    When I looked at their web-sites this was exactly the impression I got.
    To me it didn´t look that there were any “bargains”, most resales seemed to be overpriced and in a very bad condition.

  • #99879
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @sunwind wrote:

    …….most resales seemed to be overpriced and in a very bad condition.

    ‘Toxic’ assets?

  • #99679
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @sunwind wrote:

    …….most resales seemed to be overpriced and in a very bad condition.

    ‘Toxic’ assets?

  • #99880
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @sunwind wrote:

    @inez wrote:
    The real problem is trying to actually deal with the Spanish Banks.

    I gave up on them years ago as their prices were higher than the equivalent I had on my books, they would never set an actual price and stick to it, it was always between one and 2 points and they didn’t want to pay fees – I’m only 2.5% and always have been – but they don’t like paying anything!

    The main problem I had was their prices being higher than directly from owners.

    When I looked at their web-sites this was exactly the impression I got.
    To me it didn´t look that there were any “bargains”, most resales seemed to be overpriced and in a very bad condition.

    I get the distinct impression that the banks have been ordered to put their properties up for sale, and are pricing them in such a way that they cannot possibly be sold, thus retaining their high value on their books.

    The mortgage deals on offer are only a cynical way to dupe the odd fool into buying into immediate negative equity.

  • #99680
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @sunwind wrote:

    @inez wrote:
    The real problem is trying to actually deal with the Spanish Banks.

    I gave up on them years ago as their prices were higher than the equivalent I had on my books, they would never set an actual price and stick to it, it was always between one and 2 points and they didn’t want to pay fees – I’m only 2.5% and always have been – but they don’t like paying anything!

    The main problem I had was their prices being higher than directly from owners.

    When I looked at their web-sites this was exactly the impression I got.
    To me it didn´t look that there were any “bargains”, most resales seemed to be overpriced and in a very bad condition.

    I get the distinct impression that the banks have been ordered to put their properties up for sale, and are pricing them in such a way that they cannot possibly be sold, thus retaining their high value on their books.

    The mortgage deals on offer are only a cynical way to dupe the odd fool into buying into immediate negative equity.

  • #99902
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    They try to get around that by saying they are offering full finance on them so some people buy thinking they are getting an overseas property for nothing!!

  • #99702
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    They try to get around that by saying they are offering full finance on them so some people buy thinking they are getting an overseas property for nothing!!

  • #99904
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    I do accept the argument that cross-border property sales cost more, so commissions need to be higher to cover higher operating-costs. But 10%! That’s taking the mickey.

    And I very much doubt that Spanish banks are deliberately stifling the property recovery. Most of them haven’t a clue what they are doing when it comes to selling abroad.

  • #99704
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I do accept the argument that cross-border property sales cost more, so commissions need to be higher to cover higher operating-costs. But 10%! That’s taking the mickey.

    And I very much doubt that Spanish banks are deliberately stifling the property recovery. Most of them haven’t a clue what they are doing when it comes to selling abroad.

  • #99906
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    Agents on the Costa Blanca would not get out of bed for a paltry 10% for many years and often boasted to me of their 15-18% rate of commissions on new builds. It is has been a common enough practice up there for the past two decades I don’t know why anyone is surprised by that.

    Now the Costa del Sol average is 5% with agents splitting a good deal, so usually taking 2.5% and with an average overall of say 3.2% maybe, and there have been many posts on this issue over the years on countless threads, but the CDS rates are generally accepted and seen as fair and appropriate – given a whole range of factors – where the Costa Blanca rates are completely obscene really.

    And that in an area where the quality of build and other aspects are so much poorer, beggars belief, but then so does advertising and selling Villas that are not even 90 sq mtrs, when that is the average apartment size on the CDS, people thought / think the CB is so much cheaper, but not quite the case when you look at price per square metre I think, and what is in their in build quality.

    Though I know this applied in the main to the massive build developers and should not be taken as writ against all builders / developers, but jeeze, Torrevieja…. well says it all really.

    And agents were getting 20% there.

  • #99706
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    Agents on the Costa Blanca would not get out of bed for a paltry 10% for many years and often boasted to me of their 15-18% rate of commissions on new builds. It is has been a common enough practice up there for the past two decades I don’t know why anyone is surprised by that.

    Now the Costa del Sol average is 5% with agents splitting a good deal, so usually taking 2.5% and with an average overall of say 3.2% maybe, and there have been many posts on this issue over the years on countless threads, but the CDS rates are generally accepted and seen as fair and appropriate – given a whole range of factors – where the Costa Blanca rates are completely obscene really.

    And that in an area where the quality of build and other aspects are so much poorer, beggars belief, but then so does advertising and selling Villas that are not even 90 sq mtrs, when that is the average apartment size on the CDS, people thought / think the CB is so much cheaper, but not quite the case when you look at price per square metre I think, and what is in their in build quality.

    Though I know this applied in the main to the massive build developers and should not be taken as writ against all builders / developers, but jeeze, Torrevieja…. well says it all really.

    And agents were getting 20% there.

  • #99914
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You’re as good five years out of date. There are very few agents left to the south of Alicante, they’ve all gone home. The ones still hanging on are lucky with two or three percent commission on non- existent sales, and are still here because they’ve got nothing to go back to.

    The ones who did charge ten percent without getting out of bed are few and far between, and some of them are banged up.

  • #99714
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    You’re as good five years out of date. There are very few agents left to the south of Alicante, they’ve all gone home. The ones still hanging on are lucky with two or three percent commission on non- existent sales, and are still here because they’ve got nothing to go back to.

    The ones who did charge ten percent without getting out of bed are few and far between, and some of them are banged up.

  • #99915
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Actually you are both wrong:
    1. I know several builders who have offered 10% commissions on the CDS
    2. There are plenty of agents both North and South of the CB demanding (yes demanding), nothing less than 15%. The problem is you think that only the brits buy in Spain when there are currently plenty of Russian, Polish and Dutch agents in the area.

    I won’t get into a CB vs CDS war here, but places like Fuengirola, Torremolinos are still part of the CDS right? Its not all Marbella and Ronda in the CDS while its not all Torrevieja in CB.

    Nevertheless, I still believe you get what you pay for and people are savvy enough to know that size, areas and quality all influence the price. You want something big, seaviews and with the lates modcons…hey, pay for it!
    If you think 100.000 € for a 65sq metre apartment, walking to the beach in Torrevieja is too much, then I think perhaps you should look elsewhere for your place in the Sun.

  • #99715
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Actually you are both wrong:
    1. I know several builders who have offered 10% commissions on the CDS
    2. There are plenty of agents both North and South of the CB demanding (yes demanding), nothing less than 15%. The problem is you think that only the brits buy in Spain when there are currently plenty of Russian, Polish and Dutch agents in the area.

    I won’t get into a CB vs CDS war here, but places like Fuengirola, Torremolinos are still part of the CDS right? Its not all Marbella and Ronda in the CDS while its not all Torrevieja in CB.

    Nevertheless, I still believe you get what you pay for and people are savvy enough to know that size, areas and quality all influence the price. You want something big, seaviews and with the lates modcons…hey, pay for it!
    If you think 100.000 € for a 65sq metre apartment, walking to the beach in Torrevieja is too much, then I think perhaps you should look elsewhere for your place in the Sun.

  • #99918
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just one bank, CAM, has just thrown thousands of repossessions on to the market in Alicante city and Torrevieja, most of them within walking distance of the sea. They do look overpriced, however, but they don’t use agents, so that would be a 10% saving and your 100K figure for 65 metres on the sea front looks about right. In Alicante city it would be double that.

    If you offer the banks cash for a bigger discount, they’re not interested, they want the mortgage business, something I don’t understand.

  • #99718
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just one bank, CAM, has just thrown thousands of repossessions on to the market in Alicante city and Torrevieja, most of them within walking distance of the sea. They do look overpriced, however, but they don’t use agents, so that would be a 10% saving and your 100K figure for 65 metres on the sea front looks about right. In Alicante city it would be double that.

    If you offer the banks cash for a bigger discount, they’re not interested, they want the mortgage business, something I don’t understand.

  • #99929
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry Rocker, but you are joking right? CAM, not using agents? They are giving 5-10% commissions to agents who sell to foreign clients and 2-5% to nationals.
    How can the CAM suddenly set up a real estate agency to cover the whole of the province and most of Spain? Believe me that half their staff are pretty useless and don’t know a second language so I can’t see CAM staff showing properties.
    Just about every bank is using agents, CAM is being selective but is offering higher commissions than the rest.

  • #99729
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry Rocker, but you are joking right? CAM, not using agents? They are giving 5-10% commissions to agents who sell to foreign clients and 2-5% to nationals.
    How can the CAM suddenly set up a real estate agency to cover the whole of the province and most of Spain? Believe me that half their staff are pretty useless and don’t know a second language so I can’t see CAM staff showing properties.
    Just about every bank is using agents, CAM is being selective but is offering higher commissions than the rest.

  • #99933
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    “You want something big, seaviews and with the lates modcons…hey, pay for it!
    If you think 100.000 € for a 65sq metre apartment, walking to the beach in Torrevieja is too much, then I think perhaps you should look elsewhere for your place in the Sun.”

    $30,000 dollars buys a large house with Pool in a gated community in Florida. Not practical for most people but Spain doesn’t have a monopoly on the sun but it does have a massive oversupply of apartments and the disappearance of most of its potential custom base and finance for the next five years at least. When prices hit 40K euro buyers may return.

  • #99733
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    “You want something big, seaviews and with the lates modcons…hey, pay for it!
    If you think 100.000 € for a 65sq metre apartment, walking to the beach in Torrevieja is too much, then I think perhaps you should look elsewhere for your place in the Sun.”

    $30,000 dollars buys a large house with Pool in a gated community in Florida. Not practical for most people but Spain doesn’t have a monopoly on the sun but it does have a massive oversupply of apartments and the disappearance of most of its potential custom base and finance for the next five years at least. When prices hit 40K euro buyers may return.

  • #99934
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @peterhun wrote:

    $30,000 dollars buys a large house with Pool in a gated community in Florida. Not practical for most people but Spain doesn’t have a monopoly on the sun but it does have a massive oversupply of apartments and the disappearance of most of its potential custom base and finance for the next five years at least. When prices hit 40K euro buyers may return.

    I would be interested to know where 😆 We are there every year and get first hand info’ not by trawling the web! If there is anything at that price I would buy a few as the rental market is still good.

  • #99734
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @peterhun wrote:

    $30,000 dollars buys a large house with Pool in a gated community in Florida. Not practical for most people but Spain doesn’t have a monopoly on the sun but it does have a massive oversupply of apartments and the disappearance of most of its potential custom base and finance for the next five years at least. When prices hit 40K euro buyers may return.

    I would be interested to know where 😆 We are there every year and get first hand info’ not by trawling the web! If there is anything at that price I would buy a few as the rental market is still good.

  • #99940
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    $30,000 dollars buys a large house with Pool in a gated community in Florida. Not practical for most people but Spain doesn’t have a monopoly on the sun but it does have a massive oversupply of apartments and the disappearance of most of its potential custom base and finance for the next five years at least. When prices hit 40K euro buyers may return.

    I would be interested to know where 😆 We are there every year and get first hand info’ not by trawling the web! If there is anything at that price I would buy a few as the rental market is still good.

    You can also try Arizona. My cousin-in-law has just done a short sale on his house; bought for $180K, sold $42K (short sale @ $42K example: http://patrickschutte.az-re.com/detailspaarresi_170042.cfm?startrow=1&&list_id=948570&pageid=170059 ). How about my business partner in California, his house has lost 50% from peak and its near the coast in San Diego. Lets not discuss the $1 houses in Detroit.
    Property has fallen through the floor in the US, even if you are utterly unaware of it.

    Although the flaw with living in the Florida community was the fees.. from $10-20K per year

  • #99740
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    $30,000 dollars buys a large house with Pool in a gated community in Florida. Not practical for most people but Spain doesn’t have a monopoly on the sun but it does have a massive oversupply of apartments and the disappearance of most of its potential custom base and finance for the next five years at least. When prices hit 40K euro buyers may return.

    I would be interested to know where 😆 We are there every year and get first hand info’ not by trawling the web! If there is anything at that price I would buy a few as the rental market is still good.

    You can also try Arizona. My cousin-in-law has just done a short sale on his house; bought for $180K, sold $42K (short sale @ $42K example: http://patrickschutte.az-re.com/detailspaarresi_170042.cfm?startrow=1&&list_id=948570&pageid=170059 ). How about my business partner in California, his house has lost 50% from peak and its near the coast in San Diego. Lets not discuss the $1 houses in Detroit.
    Property has fallen through the floor in the US, even if you are utterly unaware of it.

    Although the flaw with living in the Florida community was the fees.. from $10-20K per year

  • #99941
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I find that a lot of the information on actual prices on this forum is pretty accurate, and if only the US changed its immigration policy towards British people; they owe us, after all, there could be a mass exodus from the Spanish costas to Florida.

    Imagine, you could sell your 65 square metre apartment on the sea front in Torrevieja, and for the money buy at least three, three-bedroom detached houses, with a pool, in a gated community in Florida!

    British people, especially pensioners don’t pose a threat to the States, and with the exchange rate improving all the time, the good people of Florida should be pleased to have us there. And quite a few of us speak Spanish too.

    And if you bought three of those large houses in Florida, you could rent out the other two. I hope for some more information from the experts, can you get round the immigration laws?

  • #99741
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I find that a lot of the information on actual prices on this forum is pretty accurate, and if only the US changed its immigration policy towards British people; they owe us, after all, there could be a mass exodus from the Spanish costas to Florida.

    Imagine, you could sell your 65 square metre apartment on the sea front in Torrevieja, and for the money buy at least three, three-bedroom detached houses, with a pool, in a gated community in Florida!

    British people, especially pensioners don’t pose a threat to the States, and with the exchange rate improving all the time, the good people of Florida should be pleased to have us there. And quite a few of us speak Spanish too.

    And if you bought three of those large houses in Florida, you could rent out the other two. I hope for some more information from the experts, can you get round the immigration laws?

  • #99942
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Can you get round the immigration laws?

    No.

  • #99742
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Can you get round the immigration laws?

    No.

  • #99948
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @Rocker wrote:

    Imagine, you could sell your 65 square metre apartment on the sea front in Torrevieja, and for the money buy at least three, three-bedroom detached houses, with a pool, in a gated community in Florida!
    And if you bought three of those large houses in Florida, you could rent out the other two. I hope for some more information from the experts, can you get round the immigration laws?

    In your dreams 😆

    I do have first hand information on Naples Florida. Prices have dropped but not all that much. Many bargains on sale on the web are either condos that no-one ever wanted or homes in way off areas. (Similar to what has been built in Spain during the past 5 years.)Others are in undesirable areas where no sane person would live. Even then prices are not as low as you think. If there were I would consider buying more, our Florida house 3/2 with pool nets us $33,600 after taxes and agents fees and has been rented by the same person for over two years.

    Unlike some I do not claim to know the whole of USA but I find there are a lot of internet myths. Bit like when people visit Spain and expect to find all these 50% bargains after what the forums and EA’s have been telling them.

  • #99748
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @Rocker wrote:

    Imagine, you could sell your 65 square metre apartment on the sea front in Torrevieja, and for the money buy at least three, three-bedroom detached houses, with a pool, in a gated community in Florida!
    And if you bought three of those large houses in Florida, you could rent out the other two. I hope for some more information from the experts, can you get round the immigration laws?

    In your dreams 😆

    I do have first hand information on Naples Florida. Prices have dropped but not all that much. Many bargains on sale on the web are either condos that no-one ever wanted or homes in way off areas. (Similar to what has been built in Spain during the past 5 years.)Others are in undesirable areas where no sane person would live. Even then prices are not as low as you think. If there were I would consider buying more, our Florida house 3/2 with pool nets us $33,600 after taxes and agents fees and has been rented by the same person for over two years.

    Unlike some I do not claim to know the whole of USA but I find there are a lot of internet myths. Bit like when people visit Spain and expect to find all these 50% bargains after what the forums and EA’s have been telling them.

  • #99956
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Being seriously interested in the US aspect, who do you believe, Katy with her on-the-ground knowledge, or Peter with his obvious expertise and actual internet examples?

    I have another question, and I also have some limited knowledge of the US property market; what if a British subject bought a US business, say a small motel, just to beat the immigration laws, and then bought the three large and cheap properties in Florida too?

    Surely if Florida welcomes ‘wetbacks’ and Cubans, they can’t be that unwelcoming towards the British? Or will the historical dislike prevail for ever more?

  • #99756
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Being seriously interested in the US aspect, who do you believe, Katy with her on-the-ground knowledge, or Peter with his obvious expertise and actual internet examples?

    I have another question, and I also have some limited knowledge of the US property market; what if a British subject bought a US business, say a small motel, just to beat the immigration laws, and then bought the three large and cheap properties in Florida too?

    Surely if Florida welcomes ‘wetbacks’ and Cubans, they can’t be that unwelcoming towards the British? Or will the historical dislike prevail for ever more?

  • #99957
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Being seriously interested in the US aspect, who do you believe, Katy with her on-the-ground knowledge, or Peter with his obvious expertise and actual internet examples?

    Obviously not someone who has a vested interest in talking up Florida house prices. I gave an example of someone who has actually bought and sold. If you don’t believe in the internet, why are you using the internet to discuss property prices?

    Here are few examples

    2991 LUNAR ST # NAPLES, FLORIDA 34112-6207
    Price: $39,000
    Bathrooms: 2
    Bedrooms: 3
    Partial Baths:
    Square Feet: 1200

    http://www.forsaleonmarco.idxco.com/idx/7211/details.php?idxID=188&listingID=209044073&printable=1

    5308 TEXAS AVE #
    NAPLES, FLORIDA 34113-7857
    Price: $45,000
    Bathrooms: 2
    Bedrooms: 3
    Partial Baths:
    Square Feet: 1066

    http://www.forsaleonmarco.idxco.com/idx/7211/details.php?idxID=188&listingID=210001864&printable=1

    And a bit more expensive
    270 ISLAMORADA LN #224,NAPLES, FLORIDA 34114
    Bathrooms: 2
    Bedrooms: 2
    Partial Baths:
    Square Feet: 1080

    http://www.forsaleonmarco.idxco.com/idx/7211/details.php?idxID=188&listingID=210000703&printable=1

    The actual prices are not the point – they are at a massive discount to past prices

    Here is Miami for instance, over 50% falls.

  • #99757
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    Being seriously interested in the US aspect, who do you believe, Katy with her on-the-ground knowledge, or Peter with his obvious expertise and actual internet examples?

    Obviously not someone who has a vested interest in talking up Florida house prices. I gave an example of someone who has actually bought and sold. If you don’t believe in the internet, why are you using the internet to discuss property prices?

    Here are few examples

    2991 LUNAR ST # NAPLES, FLORIDA 34112-6207
    Price: $39,000
    Bathrooms: 2
    Bedrooms: 3
    Partial Baths:
    Square Feet: 1200

    http://www.forsaleonmarco.idxco.com/idx/7211/details.php?idxID=188&listingID=209044073&printable=1

    5308 TEXAS AVE #
    NAPLES, FLORIDA 34113-7857
    Price: $45,000
    Bathrooms: 2
    Bedrooms: 3
    Partial Baths:
    Square Feet: 1066

    http://www.forsaleonmarco.idxco.com/idx/7211/details.php?idxID=188&listingID=210001864&printable=1

    And a bit more expensive
    270 ISLAMORADA LN #224,NAPLES, FLORIDA 34114
    Bathrooms: 2
    Bedrooms: 2
    Partial Baths:
    Square Feet: 1080

    http://www.forsaleonmarco.idxco.com/idx/7211/details.php?idxID=188&listingID=210000703&printable=1

    The actual prices are not the point – they are at a massive discount to past prices

    Here is Miami for instance, over 50% falls.

  • #99958
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    maybe katy meant actual houses not prefab huts

  • #99758
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    maybe katy meant actual houses not prefab huts

  • #99959
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    maybe katy meant actual houses not prefab huts

    Yes, I am certain she did, some of these definitely look to be in the “I will huff and I will puff…” category really. So off you go Rocker, sell up in Spain and buy three, and live happily ever after, would love to see who is in the local “hood” also! Your Spanish may well come in handy.

    They might well look very attractive to someone living in Poland though, I have to say.

  • #99759
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @dartboy wrote:

    maybe katy meant actual houses not prefab huts

    Yes, I am certain she did, some of these definitely look to be in the “I will huff and I will puff…” category really. So off you go Rocker, sell up in Spain and buy three, and live happily ever after, would love to see who is in the local “hood” also! Your Spanish may well come in handy.

    They might well look very attractive to someone living in Poland though, I have to say.

  • #99962
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ‘People living in Poland’, ‘your Spanish might come in handy’, what sort of person can possibly write something like that?

    It’s offensive and implies the kind of ignorance that should have died out years ago. It plainly hasn’t in some extreme quarters and it’s way beneath my dignity to reply sensibly.

    Viva, was it? I remember.

  • #99762
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ‘People living in Poland’, ‘your Spanish might come in handy’, what sort of person can possibly write something like that?

    It’s offensive and implies the kind of ignorance that should have died out years ago. It plainly hasn’t in some extreme quarters and it’s way beneath my dignity to reply sensibly.

    Viva, was it? I remember.

  • #99963
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Correct dartboy. These are known as manufactured homes in the USA., similar to mobile homes in the UK. Most of them will have lots of defects and many will be in not so nice neighbourhoods..eg. scrap cars in drives etc.

    I don’t have any interest in “talking up” the Florida market, neither did I the spanish one when I had an expensive property. Browsing the web there would appear to be many bargains in most countries, they are for dreamers. Lots of “fincas” in Spain for around 40,000. In reality they need gutting and when another 80,000 or so is spent renovating them your neighbours will be Gypsies or the bottom of the pile.

    Rocker the only possible way to live in Florida legally is to buy a business and get an E-2 visa. Have a look at http://www.thefloridaforums.com

  • #99763
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Correct dartboy. These are known as manufactured homes in the USA., similar to mobile homes in the UK. Most of them will have lots of defects and many will be in not so nice neighbourhoods..eg. scrap cars in drives etc.

    I don’t have any interest in “talking up” the Florida market, neither did I the spanish one when I had an expensive property. Browsing the web there would appear to be many bargains in most countries, they are for dreamers. Lots of “fincas” in Spain for around 40,000. In reality they need gutting and when another 80,000 or so is spent renovating them your neighbours will be Gypsies or the bottom of the pile.

    Rocker the only possible way to live in Florida legally is to buy a business and get an E-2 visa. Have a look at http://www.thefloridaforums.com

  • #99964
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    ‘People living in Poland’, ‘your Spanish might come in handy’, what sort of person can possibly write something like that?

    It’s offensive and implies the kind of ignorance that should have died out years ago. It plainly hasn’t in some extreme quarters and it’s way beneath my dignity to reply sensibly.

    Viva, was it? I remember.

    He’s an estate agent, can’t expect anything better.

    @katy wrote:

    Correct dartboy. These are known as manufactured homes in the USA., similar to mobile homes in the UK. Most of them will have lots of defects and many will be in not so nice neighbourhoods..eg. scrap cars in drives etc.

    Really,? funny that when I look on street view there is nothing wrong with neighbourhood. No scrap cars etc, but pretty dull.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.116923,+-81.769596

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.043055,+-81.661807&ie=UTF8&ll=26.04311,-81.661613&spn=0.003258,0.008256&z=18&layer=c&cbll=26.043111,-81.661894&panoid=_dB41jwlt8iffOK0A1ijjg&cbp=12,131.25,,0,7.57

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.081665,+-81.719604&ie=UTF8&ll=26.081975,-81.719742&spn=0.013028,0.033023&z=16&layer=c&cbll=26.081684,-81.719756&panoid=mcrISdRsJ1ZJsDAzYO0Juw&cbp=12,78.7,,0,7.8

    Regardless, prices have plummeted in Florida just as the rest of the US. Really cheap property is $20k, but that would be a dodgy area (a poster on HPC has bought a 20K Florida house and moved there).

    All houses are similar to a mobile home, except for the ‘mobile’ aspect.

  • #99764
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    ‘People living in Poland’, ‘your Spanish might come in handy’, what sort of person can possibly write something like that?

    It’s offensive and implies the kind of ignorance that should have died out years ago. It plainly hasn’t in some extreme quarters and it’s way beneath my dignity to reply sensibly.

    Viva, was it? I remember.

    He’s an estate agent, can’t expect anything better.

    @katy wrote:

    Correct dartboy. These are known as manufactured homes in the USA., similar to mobile homes in the UK. Most of them will have lots of defects and many will be in not so nice neighbourhoods..eg. scrap cars in drives etc.

    Really,? funny that when I look on street view there is nothing wrong with neighbourhood. No scrap cars etc, but pretty dull.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.116923,+-81.769596

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.043055,+-81.661807&ie=UTF8&ll=26.04311,-81.661613&spn=0.003258,0.008256&z=18&layer=c&cbll=26.043111,-81.661894&panoid=_dB41jwlt8iffOK0A1ijjg&cbp=12,131.25,,0,7.57

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.081665,+-81.719604&ie=UTF8&ll=26.081975,-81.719742&spn=0.013028,0.033023&z=16&layer=c&cbll=26.081684,-81.719756&panoid=mcrISdRsJ1ZJsDAzYO0Juw&cbp=12,78.7,,0,7.8

    Regardless, prices have plummeted in Florida just as the rest of the US. Really cheap property is $20k, but that would be a dodgy area (a poster on HPC has bought a 20K Florida house and moved there).

    All houses are similar to a mobile home, except for the ‘mobile’ aspect.

  • #99965
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    ‘People living in Poland’, ‘your Spanish might come in handy’, what sort of person can possibly write something like that?

    It’s offensive and implies the kind of ignorance that should have died out years ago. It plainly hasn’t in some extreme quarters and it’s way beneath my dignity to reply sensibly.

    Viva, was it? I remember.

    He’s an estate agent, can’t expect anything better.

    @katy wrote:

    Correct dartboy. These are known as manufactured homes in the USA., similar to mobile homes in the UK. Most of them will have lots of defects and many will be in not so nice neighbourhoods..eg. scrap cars in drives etc.

    Really,? funny that when I look on street view there is nothing wrong with neighbourhood. No scrap cars etc, but pretty dull.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.116923,+-81.769596

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.043055,+-81.661807&ie=UTF8&ll=26.04311,-81.661613&spn=0.003258,0.008256&z=18&layer=c&cbll=26.043111,-81.661894&panoid=_dB41jwlt8iffOK0A1ijjg&cbp=12,131.25,,0,7.57

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.081665,+-81.719604&ie=UTF8&ll=26.081975,-81.719742&spn=0.013028,0.033023&z=16&layer=c&cbll=26.081684,-81.719756&panoid=mcrISdRsJ1ZJsDAzYO0Juw&cbp=12,78.7,,0,7.8

    Regardless, prices have plummeted in Florida just as the rest of the US. Really cheap property is $20k, but that would be a dodgy area (a poster on HPC has bought a 20K Florida house and moved there).

    All houses are similar to a mobile home, except for the ‘mobile’ aspect.

    You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business. Recently, he bragged about employing 120 people on contract, blatent nonsense.

    I know the guy from the CDS and much earlier when he was running a second mortgage business on the Essex side of London and Wormwood Scrubs.

    The Spanish are overwhelmed with clever conmen from Europe, but they’re casting a wide net, belatedly, and Connery might be gripping the rail along with other deserving people.

  • #99765
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @Rocker wrote:
    ‘People living in Poland’, ‘your Spanish might come in handy’, what sort of person can possibly write something like that?

    It’s offensive and implies the kind of ignorance that should have died out years ago. It plainly hasn’t in some extreme quarters and it’s way beneath my dignity to reply sensibly.

    Viva, was it? I remember.

    He’s an estate agent, can’t expect anything better.

    @katy wrote:

    Correct dartboy. These are known as manufactured homes in the USA., similar to mobile homes in the UK. Most of them will have lots of defects and many will be in not so nice neighbourhoods..eg. scrap cars in drives etc.

    Really,? funny that when I look on street view there is nothing wrong with neighbourhood. No scrap cars etc, but pretty dull.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.116923,+-81.769596

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.043055,+-81.661807&ie=UTF8&ll=26.04311,-81.661613&spn=0.003258,0.008256&z=18&layer=c&cbll=26.043111,-81.661894&panoid=_dB41jwlt8iffOK0A1ijjg&cbp=12,131.25,,0,7.57

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=26.081665,+-81.719604&ie=UTF8&ll=26.081975,-81.719742&spn=0.013028,0.033023&z=16&layer=c&cbll=26.081684,-81.719756&panoid=mcrISdRsJ1ZJsDAzYO0Juw&cbp=12,78.7,,0,7.8

    Regardless, prices have plummeted in Florida just as the rest of the US. Really cheap property is $20k, but that would be a dodgy area (a poster on HPC has bought a 20K Florida house and moved there).

    All houses are similar to a mobile home, except for the ‘mobile’ aspect.

    You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business. Recently, he bragged about employing 120 people on contract, blatent nonsense.

    I know the guy from the CDS and much earlier when he was running a second mortgage business on the Essex side of London and Wormwood Scrubs.

    The Spanish are overwhelmed with clever conmen from Europe, but they’re casting a wide net, belatedly, and Connery might be gripping the rail along with other deserving people.

  • #99968
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rocker and peterhun – get a grip you two. Thankfully political correctness is becoming passé since the demise of Labour where you couldn’t call a spade a spade in case you ‘offend’. 🙄
    Are you the ‘forum police’ all of a sudden ❓

    I was talking with a Polish girl on the Calais-Dover ferry a few weeks back (she was on a day trip) – she openly discussed how she left Poland to escape the dreadful poverty in her area where most in her neighbourhood “lived in garden sheds”. (her words).

    It’s sad that with all you pc ‘liberalists’ facts aren’t as important as being hell-bent on ‘not offending’ and are so misguided that you call knowledge/awareness ‘ignorance’. What a joke. Chris was only being factual, it may be painful but suggest you both read below:

    Polski Radio News
    Poverty in Poland on the rise
    13.07.2010

    The number of Poles living under the poverty line is steadily increasing due to unemployment, inadequate education and too many dependents.

    The data comes from a Central Statistical Office (GUS) report
    that shows that 2.2 million Poles live below the poverty line, mainly due to unemployment in the agricultural sector. The majority of this number come from the Podlasie region (eastern Poland), the Holy Cross region (south-central Poland) and the Lubelskie region (southeastern Poland).

    Rocker – as for your acidic little diatribe about Chris in your last post, it actually just shows to me how much Chris has achieved over the last years. Good on you Chris, though poisonous envy seems to be your penalty for doing well! 🙂

  • #99768
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Rocker and peterhun – get a grip you two. Thankfully political correctness is becoming passé since the demise of Labour where you couldn’t call a spade a spade in case you ‘offend’. 🙄
    Are you the ‘forum police’ all of a sudden ❓

    I was talking with a Polish girl on the Calais-Dover ferry a few weeks back (she was on a day trip) – she openly discussed how she left Poland to escape the dreadful poverty in her area where most in her neighbourhood “lived in garden sheds”. (her words).

    It’s sad that with all you pc ‘liberalists’ facts aren’t as important as being hell-bent on ‘not offending’ and are so misguided that you call knowledge/awareness ‘ignorance’. What a joke. Chris was only being factual, it may be painful but suggest you both read below:

    Polski Radio News
    Poverty in Poland on the rise
    13.07.2010

    The number of Poles living under the poverty line is steadily increasing due to unemployment, inadequate education and too many dependents.

    The data comes from a Central Statistical Office (GUS) report
    that shows that 2.2 million Poles live below the poverty line, mainly due to unemployment in the agricultural sector. The majority of this number come from the Podlasie region (eastern Poland), the Holy Cross region (south-central Poland) and the Lubelskie region (southeastern Poland).

    Rocker – as for your acidic little diatribe about Chris in your last post, it actually just shows to me how much Chris has achieved over the last years. Good on you Chris, though poisonous envy seems to be your penalty for doing well! 🙂

  • #99972
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Are you the ‘forum police’ all of a sudden ❓

    Are you? Why are you telling us what we can and cannot post?

    Of course there is poverty in Poland, which is very good for investors and terrible for estate agents who prefer to sell expensive property with higher commissions.

    @charlie wrote:

    where you couldn’t call a spade a spade in case you ‘offend’.

    Its not offensive, simply ignorant, bordering on stupidity. The view around the world of the UK is that it is drunken, crime ridden, filthy, overcrowded and poverty struck. Are you going to take one article about poverty in say, Peckham and apply it to the whole of the UK? Similarly, if you meet an emigrant from a country, where do you think they came from – where wages are high and people are happy? BTW the figure for poverty in the UK is 13.2million. http://www.cpag.org.uk/povertyfacts/

    Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman. As you would expect his world revolves around where he sells, which is Marbella (apparently). He take every opportunity to slag off the rest of the world, but obviously as a POS EA his opinion is less than worthless.

    He likes to take a dig at me because I bought a farm in Poland, what he failed to grasp is that in four years I’ll have paid off the debt because it was so cheap. Buying properties for investment where you don’t cripple your credit for 20 years is a smart move in my book. In four years time Spain maybe worth investing again, so my timing will be right.

    The price for property in places like Florida are obviously of interest becuase Florida is the holiday destination of millions of Americans so the potential to get a good rental yield is there. Cheap, wooden houses are common and not an issue to holiday makers or me as I’d be insured against hurricanes and no houses are Hurricane proof. Having a concrete built house is rather pointless, Florida will be washed away in hundred years.

  • #99774
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Are you the ‘forum police’ all of a sudden ❓

    Are you? Why are you telling us what we can and cannot post?

    Of course there is poverty in Poland, which is very good for investors and terrible for estate agents who prefer to sell expensive property with higher commissions.

    @charlie wrote:

    where you couldn’t call a spade a spade in case you ‘offend’.

    Its not offensive, simply ignorant, bordering on stupidity. The view around the world of the UK is that it is drunken, crime ridden, filthy, overcrowded and poverty struck. Are you going to take one article about poverty in say, Peckham and apply it to the whole of the UK? Similarly, if you meet an emigrant from a country, where do you think they came from – where wages are high and people are happy? BTW the figure for poverty in the UK is 13.2million. http://www.cpag.org.uk/povertyfacts/

    Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman. As you would expect his world revolves around where he sells, which is Marbella (apparently). He take every opportunity to slag off the rest of the world, but obviously as a POS EA his opinion is less than worthless.

    He likes to take a dig at me because I bought a farm in Poland, what he failed to grasp is that in four years I’ll have paid off the debt because it was so cheap. Buying properties for investment where you don’t cripple your credit for 20 years is a smart move in my book. In four years time Spain maybe worth investing again, so my timing will be right.

    The price for property in places like Florida are obviously of interest becuase Florida is the holiday destination of millions of Americans so the potential to get a good rental yield is there. Cheap, wooden houses are common and not an issue to holiday makers or me as I’d be insured against hurricanes and no houses are Hurricane proof. Having a concrete built house is rather pointless, Florida will be washed away in hundred years.

  • #99973
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business. Recently, he bragged about employing 120 people on contract, blatent nonsense.

    I know the guy from the CDS and much earlier when he was running a second mortgage business on the Essex side of London and Wormwood Scrubs.

    Oh dear…

    I really don’t know what to say here, I must say I hooted out loud for a moment, I trust that my posts over the years, have all been open and transparent, and actually if I said 120 people on contract – I can’t recall – it really should have been 150 because that would have been entirely correct at its peak.

    Ha, but it is the thought of being known and tagged not just as a Second Mortgage Broker from Essex, but having seemingly shared a cell in Wormwood Scrubs with Rocker that really has me still almost doubled up!

    Oh dear…

    What wing and landing were you on then Rocker? And pray do tell how we met on the CDS then, we must have had a lot of catching up to do on the good old days in Essex, and our time in the Scrubs hey?

    If your moniker is Rocker, I was wondering whether this came from having a first part to your name of being “Off yer…”

    I should take this seriously I know, but I just can’t.

    The thing I do take seriously however is the “nasty side” of the business, which is why I posted many years ago, and then in returning checked with the forum users whether my opinions would be occasionally welcome from the EA side, which by and large they have been – and I am always there to be shot at and indeed find the debate and issues raised here incredibly valuable going forward in my own way – and I really try to listen, understand, learn and then put this to good use, if I can, but who knows I might indeed be “full of it” time will tell I suppose.

    So I don’t know what to say Rocker, I really don’t, except to say that despite living in central London for almost 5 years, I don’t think I ever ventured out to Essex, or worked in the Mortgage Business, and as for Wormwood Scrubs, perhaps you have me mixed up with some of the other old lags you know from your time there?

    I will enjoy the story over a few dinners though!

  • #99776
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @Rocker wrote:

    You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business. Recently, he bragged about employing 120 people on contract, blatent nonsense.

    I know the guy from the CDS and much earlier when he was running a second mortgage business on the Essex side of London and Wormwood Scrubs.

    Oh dear…

    I really don’t know what to say here, I must say I hooted out loud for a moment, I trust that my posts over the years, have all been open and transparent, and actually if I said 120 people on contract – I can’t recall – it really should have been 150 because that would have been entirely correct at its peak.

    Ha, but it is the thought of being known and tagged not just as a Second Mortgage Broker from Essex, but having seemingly shared a cell in Wormwood Scrubs with Rocker that really has me still almost doubled up!

    Oh dear…

    What wing and landing were you on then Rocker? And pray do tell how we met on the CDS then, we must have had a lot of catching up to do on the good old days in Essex, and our time in the Scrubs hey?

    If your moniker is Rocker, I was wondering whether this came from having a first part to your name of being “Off yer…”

    I should take this seriously I know, but I just can’t.

    The thing I do take seriously however is the “nasty side” of the business, which is why I posted many years ago, and then in returning checked with the forum users whether my opinions would be occasionally welcome from the EA side, which by and large they have been – and I am always there to be shot at and indeed find the debate and issues raised here incredibly valuable going forward in my own way – and I really try to listen, understand, learn and then put this to good use, if I can, but who knows I might indeed be “full of it” time will tell I suppose.

    So I don’t know what to say Rocker, I really don’t, except to say that despite living in central London for almost 5 years, I don’t think I ever ventured out to Essex, or worked in the Mortgage Business, and as for Wormwood Scrubs, perhaps you have me mixed up with some of the other old lags you know from your time there?

    I will enjoy the story over a few dinners though!

  • #99974
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    He likes to take a dig at me because I bought a farm in Poland,

    Peterhun, if you feel I have been “digging” at you for having bought a farm in Poland, then you have my apologies, I would have no right to do so, it sounds to me like you made a considered and happy investment, so good luck to you with that.

    What I thought I had done, was questioned why you were so interested in being on a forum about Spanish property, when you had made an investment in Poland? I found it strange that you have so many opinions about property in Spain and I can’t remember any that were positive, that you would even be interested to spend your time popping in and out with your views really.

    However, I will make no more references to Poland, and will let others decide the value of your views on Spain and its property market, hope that is OK with you.

  • #99778
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    He likes to take a dig at me because I bought a farm in Poland,

    Peterhun, if you feel I have been “digging” at you for having bought a farm in Poland, then you have my apologies, I would have no right to do so, it sounds to me like you made a considered and happy investment, so good luck to you with that.

    What I thought I had done, was questioned why you were so interested in being on a forum about Spanish property, when you had made an investment in Poland? I found it strange that you have so many opinions about property in Spain and I can’t remember any that were positive, that you would even be interested to spend your time popping in and out with your views really.

    However, I will make no more references to Poland, and will let others decide the value of your views on Spain and its property market, hope that is OK with you.

  • #99975
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @charlie wrote:
    Are you the ‘forum police’ all of a sudden ❓

    Are you? Why are you telling us what we can and cannot post?

    I wasn’t 🙂 – I was just commenting on your post like you did with Chris’ post. Not so happy when the shoe’s on the other foot?

    @peterhun wrote:

    Are you going to take one article about poverty in say, Peckham and apply it to the whole of the UK?

    No, but the item wasn’t about one town so don’t see your point.

    @peterhun wrote:

    Similarly, if you meet an emigrant from a country, where do you think they came from – where wages are high and people are happy?

    Exactly Peter, that was the Polish girl’s point, they’re not happy only being able to afford a garden shed ….. and Chris’. Yet you critcise him for implying that very same fact. You seem to be tying yourself up in knots here.

    @peterhun wrote:

    Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman.

    What was it you said about taking one article and applying it to the whole of the UK? It seems you can take one Estate Agent and apply your opinion to the whole lot of them. Oh dear….

    @peterhun wrote:

    Cheap, wooden houses are common and not an issue to holiday makers….

    Blimey, well each to their own I suppose but I personally wouldn’t fly all the way to Florida to stay in a cheap wooden house in a questionable area, but each to their own. For me, on holiday I like to enjoy at least the same standard as, if not better than, the one I enjoy at home. Might be an age thing though. 🙁

    @peterhun wrote:

    He likes to take a dig at me because I bought a farm in Poland…

    🙁 Yes, I agree that’s very, very, naughty. But sometimes we have to try and be strong in these situations. Anyway, you’re just had a very nice apology from him. What a gentleman.

  • #99780
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    @charlie wrote:
    Are you the ‘forum police’ all of a sudden ❓

    Are you? Why are you telling us what we can and cannot post?

    I wasn’t 🙂 – I was just commenting on your post like you did with Chris’ post. Not so happy when the shoe’s on the other foot?

    @peterhun wrote:

    Are you going to take one article about poverty in say, Peckham and apply it to the whole of the UK?

    No, but the item wasn’t about one town so don’t see your point.

    @peterhun wrote:

    Similarly, if you meet an emigrant from a country, where do you think they came from – where wages are high and people are happy?

    Exactly Peter, that was the Polish girl’s point, they’re not happy only being able to afford a garden shed ….. and Chris’. Yet you critcise him for implying that very same fact. You seem to be tying yourself up in knots here.

    @peterhun wrote:

    Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman.

    What was it you said about taking one article and applying it to the whole of the UK? It seems you can take one Estate Agent and apply your opinion to the whole lot of them. Oh dear….

    @peterhun wrote:

    Cheap, wooden houses are common and not an issue to holiday makers….

    Blimey, well each to their own I suppose but I personally wouldn’t fly all the way to Florida to stay in a cheap wooden house in a questionable area, but each to their own. For me, on holiday I like to enjoy at least the same standard as, if not better than, the one I enjoy at home. Might be an age thing though. 🙁

    @peterhun wrote:

    He likes to take a dig at me because I bought a farm in Poland…

    🙁 Yes, I agree that’s very, very, naughty. But sometimes we have to try and be strong in these situations. Anyway, you’re just had a very nice apology from him. What a gentleman.

  • #99976
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    What I thought I had done, was questioned why you were so interested in being on a forum about Spanish property, when you had made an investment in Poland?

    You have missed the key fact that my investment in Poland is not a life long financial commitment. In four years or less I’ll have bought it outright and because the debt I have is a personal loan, it doesn’t prevent me taking out a mortgage anywhere else (in Spain for instance) sooner. So of course I’m interested property in Spain, but I’ll wait till prices stop falling in five years or so.

    60% of my income is disposable so I need somewhere to invest it until the depression ends and saving interest rates are appalling. Farmland offers a very descent return and I can see it getting much better no matter what else happens – and I can live on that one investment.

  • #99782
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @Chris McCarthy wrote:

    What I thought I had done, was questioned why you were so interested in being on a forum about Spanish property, when you had made an investment in Poland?

    You have missed the key fact that my investment in Poland is not a life long financial commitment. In four years or less I’ll have bought it outright and because the debt I have is a personal loan, it doesn’t prevent me taking out a mortgage anywhere else (in Spain for instance) sooner. So of course I’m interested property in Spain, but I’ll wait till prices stop falling in five years or so.

    60% of my income is disposable so I need somewhere to invest it until the depression ends and saving interest rates are appalling. Farmland offers a very descent return and I can see it getting much better no matter what else happens – and I can live on that one investment.

  • #99977
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    Cheap, wooden houses are common and not an issue to holiday makers….

    Blimey, well each to their own I suppose but I personally wouldn’t fly all the way to Florida to stay in a cheap wooden house in a questionable area, but each to their own. For me, on holiday I like to enjoy at least the same standard as, if not better than, the one I enjoy at home. Might be an age thing though. 🙁

    Florida is what it is. I wouldn’t fly there for a holiday full stop, but if you have a problem with wooden houses then you may want to give the States a miss because the vast majority of house are made of wood. Obviously snobby British are not the main market for holiday rentals in Florida and I still don’t see what’s wrong with the areas, but as you say each to their own.

    “wasn’t 🙂 – I was just commenting on your post like you did with Chris’ post. Not so happy when the shoe’s on the other foot?”

    “What do you expect, he’s an Estate Agent” is an outrageous reply in your book? or have you mistake me with someone else?

  • #99784
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    Cheap, wooden houses are common and not an issue to holiday makers….

    Blimey, well each to their own I suppose but I personally wouldn’t fly all the way to Florida to stay in a cheap wooden house in a questionable area, but each to their own. For me, on holiday I like to enjoy at least the same standard as, if not better than, the one I enjoy at home. Might be an age thing though. 🙁

    Florida is what it is. I wouldn’t fly there for a holiday full stop, but if you have a problem with wooden houses then you may want to give the States a miss because the vast majority of house are made of wood. Obviously snobby British are not the main market for holiday rentals in Florida and I still don’t see what’s wrong with the areas, but as you say each to their own.

    “wasn’t 🙂 – I was just commenting on your post like you did with Chris’ post. Not so happy when the shoe’s on the other foot?”

    “What do you expect, he’s an Estate Agent” is an outrageous reply in your book? or have you mistake me with someone else?

  • #99978
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    Obviously snobby British are not the main market for holiday rentals in Florida…..

    So I’m a snob for not wanting to holiday in a “cheap wooden house”? Then I’m a snob. 😆

    Go for it Peter, buy your cheap wooden house as a holiday rental investment, but looking at the number of cheap rentals for luxury 3-bedroomed brick-built villas with lovely gardens/pools etc. I question your investment wisdom. Like Spain, it’s flooded with them.
    But as you’re targeting the non-snobs, you obviously believe you may well rake the cash in.

    @peterhun wrote:

    “What do you expect, he’s an Estate Agent” is an outrageous reply in your book?

    No, but your sentence “Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman” is pretty ridiculous, tarring all EA’s with the same brush.
    Plus you calling his opinion “less than worthless”. That’s a pretty “outrageous” thing to come out with. Totally rude as well as arrogantly pompous, but that’s how you and Rocker have come across to me on this thread with your recent postings and personal insults to Chris.

  • #99786
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @peterhun wrote:

    Obviously snobby British are not the main market for holiday rentals in Florida…..

    So I’m a snob for not wanting to holiday in a “cheap wooden house”? Then I’m a snob. 😆

    Go for it Peter, buy your cheap wooden house as a holiday rental investment, but looking at the number of cheap rentals for luxury 3-bedroomed brick-built villas with lovely gardens/pools etc. I question your investment wisdom. Like Spain, it’s flooded with them.
    But as you’re targeting the non-snobs, you obviously believe you may well rake the cash in.

    @peterhun wrote:

    “What do you expect, he’s an Estate Agent” is an outrageous reply in your book?

    No, but your sentence “Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman” is pretty ridiculous, tarring all EA’s with the same brush.
    Plus you calling his opinion “less than worthless”. That’s a pretty “outrageous” thing to come out with. Totally rude as well as arrogantly pompous, but that’s how you and Rocker have come across to me on this thread with your recent postings and personal insults to Chris.

  • #99980
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    Obviously snobby British are not the main market for holiday rentals in Florida…..

    So I’m a snob for not wanting to holiday in a “cheap wooden house”? Then I’m a snob. 😆

    Go for it Peter, buy your cheap wooden house as a holiday rental investment, but looking at the number of cheap rentals for luxury 3-bedroomed brick-built villas with lovely gardens/pools etc. I question your investment wisdom. Like Spain, it’s flooded with them.
    But as you’re targeting the non-snobs, you obviously believe you may well rake the cash in.

    Please stop giving replies to things I didn’t say. As I said, your reasons to travel to Florida are completely different to most people, its a cheap, easy to reach destination for millions of Americans who can drive to it. I can’t find ‘Brick built’ in the search criteria for holiday home rental, BTW.

    Getting back to my point.

    I said Florida (like Greece, Italy or any other country) is a perfectly good investment location in the sun, Spain doesn’t have a monopoly and if the price is to high investors will walk away. Which they have done.

  • #99790
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    @peterhun wrote:
    Obviously snobby British are not the main market for holiday rentals in Florida…..

    So I’m a snob for not wanting to holiday in a “cheap wooden house”? Then I’m a snob. 😆

    Go for it Peter, buy your cheap wooden house as a holiday rental investment, but looking at the number of cheap rentals for luxury 3-bedroomed brick-built villas with lovely gardens/pools etc. I question your investment wisdom. Like Spain, it’s flooded with them.
    But as you’re targeting the non-snobs, you obviously believe you may well rake the cash in.

    Please stop giving replies to things I didn’t say. As I said, your reasons to travel to Florida are completely different to most people, its a cheap, easy to reach destination for millions of Americans who can drive to it. I can’t find ‘Brick built’ in the search criteria for holiday home rental, BTW.

    Getting back to my point.

    I said Florida (like Greece, Italy or any other country) is a perfectly good investment location in the sun, Spain doesn’t have a monopoly and if the price is to high investors will walk away. Which they have done.

  • #99983
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This thread has lost its way. If you’ve nothing to say about the article in OPP then don’t post here. Start your own thread if you want to talk about something different.

    The following contributions were just rude and a discredit to their authors:

    “Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman……his opinion is less than worthless.”
    “You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business…..”
    “He’s an estate agent, can’t expect anything better.”

    When you are rude, you always undermine whatever it is you are trying to say.

  • #99796
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This thread has lost its way. If you’ve nothing to say about the article in OPP then don’t post here. Start your own thread if you want to talk about something different.

    The following contributions were just rude and a discredit to their authors:

    “Chris is a Estate Agent, the lowest type of salesman……his opinion is less than worthless.”
    “You’re right and he’s a perfect example of the nasty side of the business…..”
    “He’s an estate agent, can’t expect anything better.”

    When you are rude, you always undermine whatever it is you are trying to say.

  • #99985
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Boo Hoo! All I wanted was some opinions, honest. Please, I think the article was interesting although biased and wanted to know what other people thought. I don’t know who any of you are and I don’t particularly care about political, personal or any other kind of views. You lot have insight and I’ve read some pretty technical stuff on the site and have been quite impressed by the level of knowledge on many subjects that in all honesty, I can’t get my head around being a Saniard and all. So, with all due respect, what do you think of the article?
    thanks once again.

  • #99800
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Boo Hoo! All I wanted was some opinions, honest. Please, I think the article was interesting although biased and wanted to know what other people thought. I don’t know who any of you are and I don’t particularly care about political, personal or any other kind of views. You lot have insight and I’ve read some pretty technical stuff on the site and have been quite impressed by the level of knowledge on many subjects that in all honesty, I can’t get my head around being a Saniard and all. So, with all due respect, what do you think of the article?
    thanks once again.

  • #99987
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    Boo Hoo! All I wanted was some opinions, honest. Please, I think the article was interesting although biased and wanted to know what other people thought.
    So, with all due respect, what do you think of the article?
    thanks once again.

    Back on thread then, and it was a good post I have to say, and as it in some way relates to agents in the title, so I will venture another opinion.

    I don’t think the banks know rightly what to do Marjal.

    I don’t think they have a blind clue really. As is witnessed by the various people making comments in the article and the varying activities of the banks themselves, some offering agents good commissions, some none at all.

    I think the whole mortgage offer scenario is also very bizarre as the conditions to be met are often so stringent that people can’t get the mortgages in the first place.

    And well, you are a builder / developer, and it is evident you know your stuff and your market, but what is a bank to do, when they have had to respossess a project from a developer who probably knew quite a bit about what they were doing before being absolutely hammered by the whole economic crisis and the banks usually turning tail and running from them as soon as they needed some real help and assistance.

    If the developer – who would have invested heavily their own funds in the first place, and almost certainly quite a bit of the banks, didn’t know what to do or how to sell the units out. Then what price the bank really?

    As far as competition goes in the current market on the CDS, you would suppose that banks would perhaps be stifling or killing the agents off with absolute no brainer / steal deals, but they are not, they are so far no kind of competition at all.

    That may change, but to do so, they would have to believe in their product, spend money marketing that product, offer up genuine and easily accessible lending, and generate a new market frenzy… but then, what is the product that they have to offer…?

    It is bankrupt stock, and why was it bankrupt in the first place, and I suppose most importantly what is their get out price? And is that a good proposition price?

    They are not stifiling agents, they are wandering around firing off in a scatter gun way and seeing if anything hits a target, my view, is they haven’t a clue.

    The banks lent funds they never should have, then they refused to help the businesses they led down the garden path, and now they are lumbered with the problem they all created in the first place…. and so, they will come looking for more bailouts one supposes.

    And the bonuses they have already paid themselves many times over…?

    Eventually the bankers who are let us face it entirely responsible for this entire mess, will have to sell or pass over their stock to someone with entreprenurial drive or marketing skills, at some point in the future – and they will sell it – eventually.

    Was going to make a final sarcastic comment about real estate salespeople but I counted to ten and didn’t!

    Hope that is back on the thread. Do you see it any differently?

    Did the banks offer you plenty of umbrellas when it was sunny and take them away when it started to pour with rain?

  • #99804
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    Boo Hoo! All I wanted was some opinions, honest. Please, I think the article was interesting although biased and wanted to know what other people thought.
    So, with all due respect, what do you think of the article?
    thanks once again.

    Back on thread then, and it was a good post I have to say, and as it in some way relates to agents in the title, so I will venture another opinion.

    I don’t think the banks know rightly what to do Marjal.

    I don’t think they have a blind clue really. As is witnessed by the various people making comments in the article and the varying activities of the banks themselves, some offering agents good commissions, some none at all.

    I think the whole mortgage offer scenario is also very bizarre as the conditions to be met are often so stringent that people can’t get the mortgages in the first place.

    And well, you are a builder / developer, and it is evident you know your stuff and your market, but what is a bank to do, when they have had to respossess a project from a developer who probably knew quite a bit about what they were doing before being absolutely hammered by the whole economic crisis and the banks usually turning tail and running from them as soon as they needed some real help and assistance.

    If the developer – who would have invested heavily their own funds in the first place, and almost certainly quite a bit of the banks, didn’t know what to do or how to sell the units out. Then what price the bank really?

    As far as competition goes in the current market on the CDS, you would suppose that banks would perhaps be stifling or killing the agents off with absolute no brainer / steal deals, but they are not, they are so far no kind of competition at all.

    That may change, but to do so, they would have to believe in their product, spend money marketing that product, offer up genuine and easily accessible lending, and generate a new market frenzy… but then, what is the product that they have to offer…?

    It is bankrupt stock, and why was it bankrupt in the first place, and I suppose most importantly what is their get out price? And is that a good proposition price?

    They are not stifiling agents, they are wandering around firing off in a scatter gun way and seeing if anything hits a target, my view, is they haven’t a clue.

    The banks lent funds they never should have, then they refused to help the businesses they led down the garden path, and now they are lumbered with the problem they all created in the first place…. and so, they will come looking for more bailouts one supposes.

    And the bonuses they have already paid themselves many times over…?

    Eventually the bankers who are let us face it entirely responsible for this entire mess, will have to sell or pass over their stock to someone with entreprenurial drive or marketing skills, at some point in the future – and they will sell it – eventually.

    Was going to make a final sarcastic comment about real estate salespeople but I counted to ten and didn’t!

    Hope that is back on the thread. Do you see it any differently?

    Did the banks offer you plenty of umbrellas when it was sunny and take them away when it started to pour with rain?

  • #99990
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As Charlie mentioned earlier, reckon the bank’s repossessed stock comprises lots of ‘toxic’ assets.

    The banks can’t discount heavily or pay hefty agent’s commissions on these properties because that would mean potential write downs, loss of capital, poor credit ratings, insolvency risks blah blah blah

  • #99810
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As Charlie mentioned earlier, reckon the bank’s repossessed stock comprises lots of ‘toxic’ assets.

    The banks can’t discount heavily or pay hefty agent’s commissions on these properties because that would mean potential write downs, loss of capital, poor credit ratings, insolvency risks blah blah blah

  • #99992
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @iano wrote:

    The banks can’t discount heavily or pay hefty agent’s commissions on these properties because that would mean potential write downs, loss of capital, poor credit ratings, insolvency risks blah blah blah

    I quite agree, but surely they are just holding off the inevitable. I just cannot see these assets ever realising their book values. As and when the banks are forced into dumping these assets, then we will really see the agents suffer at the hands of the banks.

  • #99814
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @iano wrote:

    The banks can’t discount heavily or pay hefty agent’s commissions on these properties because that would mean potential write downs, loss of capital, poor credit ratings, insolvency risks blah blah blah

    I quite agree, but surely they are just holding off the inevitable. I just cannot see these assets ever realising their book values. As and when the banks are forced into dumping these assets, then we will really see the agents suffer at the hands of the banks.

  • #99993
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    From a bank’s perspective, I guess the fear is that by offloading the 180,000 repossessed stock at silly prices will mean even sillier offers as the supply side is completely out of kilter with current, or even potential, demand.

    TBH I don’t really know enough about it, but if in Spain, there is mark-to-market accounting (when assets are valued at market rates), then with property asset prices dropping, which they undoubtedly would with all that supply going onto the market, that would seriously affect the bank’s balance sheet.

    I believe the banks are between a rock and a hard place really; they want to get rid, but it’s in their interests to sit tight on these assets, restrict supply and offload gradually, creating ever more spectacular and attractive mortgage ‘offers’ to tempt punters, and hope and pray that in the meantime the market doesn’t nose-dive any further. Then just pray again for the future.

  • #99816
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    From a bank’s perspective, I guess the fear is that by offloading the 180,000 repossessed stock at silly prices will mean even sillier offers as the supply side is completely out of kilter with current, or even potential, demand.

    TBH I don’t really know enough about it, but if in Spain, there is mark-to-market accounting (when assets are valued at market rates), then with property asset prices dropping, which they undoubtedly would with all that supply going onto the market, that would seriously affect the bank’s balance sheet.

    I believe the banks are between a rock and a hard place really; they want to get rid, but it’s in their interests to sit tight on these assets, restrict supply and offload gradually, creating ever more spectacular and attractive mortgage ‘offers’ to tempt punters, and hope and pray that in the meantime the market doesn’t nose-dive any further. Then just pray again for the future.

  • #99995
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for the posts guys. Much appreciated and better than all the other stuff that was going on…lifes too short!

    I really never had a problem with the banks as much of our projects were financed with our own resoureces. Grupo Marjal is a pretty big outfit and we have other areas of interest a part from construction, although it is the core business. We have had problems to finance projects in the tourism sector, our second resort has had difficulties and a lot of rules and regulations were set down by the banks to get the finance, but in the end we have been able to get a good deal (where theres a will…).

    As for agents, I find it rather sad that many of them are bending over backwards to be able to sell these repos when there is more competitive and far better quality properties in stock of many reputable builders, we are not all in dire straits nor have we ever seen the need to sell 100 properties plus a year like many of our competitors grew acustomed to.

    I do think that we all have a degree of guilt in the whole situation and I understand that banks have shareholders that demand dividends…(long live capitalism!), but that is the nature of the beast.

    Keep on posting your opinions as they are enjoyable and enlightening. Thanks

  • #99820
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for the posts guys. Much appreciated and better than all the other stuff that was going on…lifes too short!

    I really never had a problem with the banks as much of our projects were financed with our own resoureces. Grupo Marjal is a pretty big outfit and we have other areas of interest a part from construction, although it is the core business. We have had problems to finance projects in the tourism sector, our second resort has had difficulties and a lot of rules and regulations were set down by the banks to get the finance, but in the end we have been able to get a good deal (where theres a will…).

    As for agents, I find it rather sad that many of them are bending over backwards to be able to sell these repos when there is more competitive and far better quality properties in stock of many reputable builders, we are not all in dire straits nor have we ever seen the need to sell 100 properties plus a year like many of our competitors grew acustomed to.

    I do think that we all have a degree of guilt in the whole situation and I understand that banks have shareholders that demand dividends…(long live capitalism!), but that is the nature of the beast.

    Keep on posting your opinions as they are enjoyable and enlightening. Thanks

  • #100000
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I am suprised that the Agents would actually want to bother listing those overpriced bank properties, no-one will buy them anyway.

    Was speaking to a friend in marbella last night, they have been trying to sell for about 2 years and have the property listed with lots of agents. They contacted an agent they hadn’t used before, he came along and quoted 5% commission but if he had to “share” with another agent it would rise to 7.5%! Not very transparent is it 🙄 Especially seeing as he is virtually a one man band!

  • #99830
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    I am suprised that the Agents would actually want to bother listing those overpriced bank properties, no-one will buy them anyway.

    Was speaking to a friend in marbella last night, they have been trying to sell for about 2 years and have the property listed with lots of agents. They contacted an agent they hadn’t used before, he came along and quoted 5% commission but if he had to “share” with another agent it would rise to 7.5%! Not very transparent is it 🙄 Especially seeing as he is virtually a one man band!

  • #100004
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In my experience the banks properties are as overpriced as the other stock on many agents sites. In addition, the agents will use the viewing of repos to also show some of there own listings. I’ve experienced this recently, and the banks property was slightly more sensibly priced than some of the other junk I was shown. In the end though it was all just rubbish. However, it was entertaining to hear all the old BS (reduced by X so now it’s a bargain, all houses in Spain are small, this house has lots of potential, buy now before the market rises further).

    On the subject of commissions, I am appalled that these levels of commission ever were tolerated, and amazed they still are so high. Especially when when considers how poor the average agent is.

  • #99838
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In my experience the banks properties are as overpriced as the other stock on many agents sites. In addition, the agents will use the viewing of repos to also show some of there own listings. I’ve experienced this recently, and the banks property was slightly more sensibly priced than some of the other junk I was shown. In the end though it was all just rubbish. However, it was entertaining to hear all the old BS (reduced by X so now it’s a bargain, all houses in Spain are small, this house has lots of potential, buy now before the market rises further).

    On the subject of commissions, I am appalled that these levels of commission ever were tolerated, and amazed they still are so high. Especially when when considers how poor the average agent is.

  • #99852
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spanish banks borrowed 126.3 billion Euros from the ECB in June (up from the 85.6 billion Euros borrowed in May) to stay afloat. The longer they hold on to (are stuck with) all these properties, the more it’s going to cost them in loan repayments.

    As Iano says, the banks are between a rock and a hard place.

  • #100011
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spanish banks borrowed 126.3 billion Euros from the ECB in June (up from the 85.6 billion Euros borrowed in May) to stay afloat. The longer they hold on to (are stuck with) all these properties, the more it’s going to cost them in loan repayments.

    As Iano says, the banks are between a rock and a hard place.

  • #99856
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    As Iano says, the banks are between a rock and a hard place.

    Everyone is between a rock and hard place, and it seems it was entirely the banks activities that put us there, and yet how many in the banking community have been pilloried, lost their jobs or even faced a loss of income?

    In the past, they all converted this stock into an asset on their books, and wrote down its value I understand year on year, until they could at a later date sell it on at a then book profit.

    Now, I am a salesperson and a marketer, high finance is not for me, so forgive me my simplistic naivety if it is such, but can they not ultimately take this route eventually? Indeed, is that not a sensible line to take?

    The stock isn’t going anywhere, they own it, they can’t sell it, why not just keep it until…?

  • #100013
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    As Iano says, the banks are between a rock and a hard place.

    Everyone is between a rock and hard place, and it seems it was entirely the banks activities that put us there, and yet how many in the banking community have been pilloried, lost their jobs or even faced a loss of income?

    In the past, they all converted this stock into an asset on their books, and wrote down its value I understand year on year, until they could at a later date sell it on at a then book profit.

    Now, I am a salesperson and a marketer, high finance is not for me, so forgive me my simplistic naivety if it is such, but can they not ultimately take this route eventually? Indeed, is that not a sensible line to take?

    The stock isn’t going anywhere, they own it, they can’t sell it, why not just keep it until…?

  • #99860
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    the banks held out for years last time. One of the repos’ we bought had never been lived in from completion 5 years earlier.(45% off original price!) Suppose things are more serious now.

  • #100015
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    the banks held out for years last time. One of the repos’ we bought had never been lived in from completion 5 years earlier.(45% off original price!) Suppose things are more serious now.

  • #100020
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This is a very interesting thread if it keeps on track, yes the banks could as described “dump” the 180000 properties on an already dead market place.
    There is however a fly in the ointment in that there are closer to 180 buyers than the 180000. It will be a long time before the market returns and probably wont ever reach the past peak figures.
    Remember that this is a world wide financial meltdown not limited to Spain.
    There are still some realistic prices being offered but still very few buyers who are in the main retired or private income people.
    Keep the posts coming Chris and Marjal some of us are learning a lot from your input.
    It would seem that what will emerge will be a totally different property scenario with fewer agents, developers and lawyers but those that survive will have learned some hard lessons.
    This current situation could actually benefit Spain in the long run.

  • #100022
    Profile photo of Chris McCarthy
    Chris McCarthy
    Participant

    @vilprano wrote:

    This is a very interesting thread if it keeps on track, yes the banks could as described “dump” the 180000 properties on an already dead market place.
    There is however a fly in the ointment in that there are closer to 180 buyers than the 180000.
    Remember that this is a world wide financial meltdown not limited to Spain.
    This current situation could actually benefit Spain in the long run.

    Well for me I think you hit the nail on the head in several areas here:

    The properties are already there, but no they cannot be “dumped” because there is no mass market appeal with an urge and splurge to invest. And this has everything to do with the worldwide financial meltdown yes. So I think the banks have simply no alternative but to hold on to what they “invested” in, in the first place, or place this in some other central banks toxic asset waste bin, which similarly has to bid its time. I cannot see any other outcome than that.

    I take the point about the 180 buyers but it is of course a few more than that, the guys I work with have sold 10% of that number being 18 in the past five weeks or so. However you are absolutely right that these people are in the main retired, private income or Spanish & other Euro nationals.

    Investment, capital growth, rental return, 100% finance, and words like leverage and ratios are simply not words that are used by the buyer today, more important by far it seems are quality, use, security, location and real value. It is a whole different world, and actually quite a nice one really, it is how it is supposed to be in my view.

    Amongst businesses also, it is not different than here in my co-home town of Harrogate, it is indeed about survival, service and satisfied customers referring more business. Many businesses will yes continue to disappear but others have a new perspective and structure to move forward.

    All of which you are absolutely right, could and should be to the ultimate benefit of Spain, and I would say my area particularly because of the recent opening of the new airport and yet more infrastructure on the way such as the coastal underground over the next several years. And because it has only a small share of the massive poor quality overbuild that has blighted other areas , who may suffer a bit longer I think.

    Less of everything that was greed filled in the past, and time to ponder the hard lessons learned indeed. All to the good, shame that it took the CDS its own property collapse through 06-07 and the world crash from 08-10 to get the message, but the sun still shines and let’s remember there is already more than 50 years of development in place and as…

    There will be no major build here for the next decade I would imagine, the bank stock will have to be addressed, renovated and represented to the market when there is a market there for it, and I think there will be even over the next year or so, as agents still struggle to find general resale properties at keen selling prices, not every vendor is so desperate to sell, they also can wait.

    As the overall economy recovers so will people’s confidence return and their own desire to have that home in the sun they always wanted. Then agents and banks may compete and look to stifle each other, but demand brings hopefully a more vibrant – upbeat market and competition will certainly be good for the buyer I think, and those that already own but have no wish to sell at this time.

    I think I have always said publicly don’t buy to invest, even and most especially at the peak of the market we said this, which is why we can look our clients in the eye today.

    I suppose all the “financial” discussion elements will continue on the forum, and quite rightly so, but I look forward to the day when they are about which product people actually should buy and why. Which in itself will be based on the experiences and the results people who are still buying today report.

    I don’t know, but I think Katy, who bought and sold her fair share on the CDS, might agree that the best time to have bought in the past was between 91-94 being several years after the previous collapse in the late 80’s and several years before the return of the market boom in the late 90’s.

    Is it any different today? Yet those people did not buy simply to invest, they bought primarily for personal use and pleasure, which in the long run turned out to be the best decision even if they sell today.

  • #100023
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @marjal wrote:

    From the OP article:

    And the volumes are so great that it is squeezing out new developments. “This whole process has been putting projects on hold and causing developers to go bust for at least a year now,” says Butcher. “The banks are obsessed with their repossessions and new build is having to wait while they work out what to do.”

    We can assume the banks are not ‘squeezing out’ the large number of developers who are clients, the ones given extended lines of credit, the so-called ‘zombie’ developers.

    By refinancing the debt of their zombies and keeping them afloat for a couple more years , the banks are buying time and will be hoping they shift some of their stock and service their loans. It also keeps those dodgy assets off the bank’s books, at least for the time being.

    In the meantime, it would help the bank’s cause somewhat if the competition is ‘squeezed out’. 😈

  • #100040
    Profile photo of adiep
    adiep
    Participant

    Its all well and good, unless Germany/France start to grow and lending rates start to rise. At which point the banks cant rollover their debts and will go under.

  • #100042
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    This is a better example of banks selling cheap

    http://mfr.mlxchange.com/Pub/EmailView.asp?r=431446108&s=MFR&t=MFR

    Not a place I would want to be but it does have the whole of USA and Europe as a potential rental market all year round, about £60,000 at today’s rate.

  • #100043
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Out of interest Katy, and not being familiar with US terminology, as it says the construction is of “block and stucco”, does that mean it’s not made of wood?

    Breeze block (or something similar) and rendering?

  • #100044
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Don’t really know Charlie. I think concrete is poured into the framework 😕 I have seen homes being built there with wooden frames, they are not the same as the prefab type.

  • #100045
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Breeze block (or something similar) and rendering?

    That’s pretty much spot on, I believe.

  • #100047
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    @katy wrote:

    Don’t really know Charlie. I think concrete is poured into the framework 😕 I have seen homes being built there with wooden frames, they are not the same as the prefab type.

    Seems to be a type of plaster on cinder or cement block
    .
    http://www.ehow.com/how_5535707_apply-stucco-over-block-wall.html

  • #100048
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It seems cinder blocks haven’t been used for construction (exterior walls) for about 50 years when mass production of them stopped. Back then coal was commonly used for fuel so there were a lot of cinders available. They are sometimes used for interior walls – lighter and cheaper.

    So the term “blocks” when talking of construction in the US if the house is younger than 50yrs are concrete, made of cement, sand, water and aggregates (sand, stone or similar).
    Another term for them is CMU’s – concrete masonary units.

    We learn a little every day. 🙂

  • #100053
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Here you go, Charlie –

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_masonry_unit

    Cheers
    roots

  • #100070
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Phew……far too much information 😆 – but thanks Roots!

    And apologies for taking this thread on a little diversion…..back to topic anyone?

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