ACTION !!!

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This topic contains 405 replies, has 43 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #52892
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This forum is a fantastic way of getting support, information, advice & knowledge, but I’m sure that more has to be done, particularly for those of us who feel we are continually fighting a losing battle. I’ve thought about getting some kind of petition together on the web that can be signed & presented to No. 10, but don’t know enough about how to do this, & think I am probably too angry as well at the moment.

    In the meantime, I have written to Geoff Hoon, Minister for Europe, outlining the deplorable situation many of us are in & have asked him what he can do for the thousands of British people who find themselves in this mess. If you feel moved to write also I think it would be excellent.
    His details:

    Rt Hon Geoff Hoon MP
    Minister for Europe
    Foreign and Commonwealth Office
    King Charles Street
    London SW1A 2AH

    email: ministereurope@fco.gov.uk

  • #72185
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A couple of members of our group(Green Hills) has also written to a/some MEP/s and also to the Governor of The Bank of England, re actions of the Spanish Banks.. Nine letters in all were sent. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

  • #72186
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Claire, do you know what the response was, if any ❓

  • #72188
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    They were only sent two days ago. I’ll let you know IF there is a response. 😉

  • #72189
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I sent my letter 2 days ago too ❗ I hope the Rt Hon Hoon gets so many letters/emails that he just has to respond. I think it’s best to start at the top – and as our PM is in a kind of limbo, Hoon seemed the best person to start with.

    Will post any response I receive.

    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE – all battling, take a few minutes out to write to him. You don’t need to give a history of the Malaya case – I’ve already done that (brief but concise) in case he needed a reminder ❗
    Thank you

  • #72190
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I hold my hand up. I am the one who wrote. I had my first response this morning from Robert Kilroy-Silk, one of the MEPs in my region (East Midlands). He replied by return to say that he is forwarding a copy of my letter to the Spanish Ambassador for his comments. I’ll post here what he says – and any other responses I get.

    I mailed my own MP, the 6 MEP’s for my region, the Governor of the Bank of England and the Spanish Ombudsman.

    I think it would be good if more of us would write because:
    it raises awareness amongst people who may be able to put pressure in the right places;
    it names and shames;
    and it makes me feel better because I’m doing something. I can’t bear the powerlessness of this situation.

    roots

  • #72191
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots – FANTASTIC

    I’ll also send a copy of my letter to local MPs etc.

    I know exactly what you mean about feeling so powerless – me too – like knots being twisted away in your stomach (sorry!) but thinking about it I don’t believe we are without power.

  • #72192
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots – welcome to the forum! 😉

    We all look forward to your future posts with news on this – and well done to all of you for actually taking some ‘ACTION!!!’

  • #72193
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Great news that you have had a quick reply from RKS.

    I am also in the process of writing a letter to all the MEPs in my area(North West). Hope to have it sent off early next week.

    Will keep you all informed if any responses received

    JB

  • #72194
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello JB & Roots (“welcome” from me too) – PLEASE send a copy to Geoff Hoon 🙂

  • #72195
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A PETITION NEEDS TO BE COMPILED & PRESENTED TO THE GOVERNMENT.
    The best way I can think of at present is this, if you all agree:

    Send me a PM with your name, Location, name of development & DEVELOPER, & current situation, eg. no LFO, No Bank Guarantee, Severe Breach of Contract etc., but keep it as brief & concise as possible. I am sure that many, understandably, will not want to disclose their full address but Location would be necessary.

    I will then compile your PMs into one document & as many of us as possible can take it together to No. 10, & get the media involved. If you are willing to give me your email address I’ll keep you updated on the numbers as the document progresses.

    This is the best way I can think of at present, without having to spend money on a website. A lot of people visit SPI & I am sure we can get a good response if we try hard enough. I have asked Mark for his input.

    Please let me know what you think, or if you have a better idea.
    Many thanks 🙂

  • #72206
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Forgot to mention that we have written to the European Union advisory body for citizens, asking to tell us the procedure for making a formal complaint re. the practices of a specific Spanish bank re. the way they are conducting themselves regarding Bank Guarantees.

    I know a lot has been said on another thread as to why they don’t honour them and how they always make you go to court. But the fact they always make you fight ‘just because they are reluctant to pay out monies regardless of the situation, this is the way they are and this is the way it’s always been’ quite frankly is just not acceptable or good enough.

    We would also like to know how come they issued Bank Guarantees for an illegal development, as most were issued after the building licence was revoked.

  • #72209
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    to all on this thread

    Fantastic, and well done!. i wrote to my MEP, some time ago, and only got the standard answer that it was beyond their control, but if enough of us can sign a petition and get it to number 10, who knows?, got be worth a try. I don’t think the media know how bad it is, that alone the general public?. I would have thought anyone who’s been swindled on this site (and perphaps on the other main sites) would be happy to join in, if only for this exercise.

    Suzanne.

    i’ll get my details to you soon.

  • #72212
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think the general idea of forming a pressure group,is excellent,the group behind the land grab issue have achieved an enormus ammount,and just as immportantly have provided support and advice to all its members.
    Organisation is key,keeping your story line in the public eye is parramount,all the main papers now carry stories on the land grab issue ,for instance PM Tony Blair will raise the LARU abuse with his spainish counter part during his meeting shortly.Publicity should be your weapon of choice,along with a political line to keep your issues in the politicans in tray. 💡
    Its not easy but it can be done

  • #72220
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello to you all,

    I also wrote to my MEP, Caroline Jackson back in March 2005 regarding my fraud case. She approached the relevant officials in the Foreign Office who contacted the Consultate in Alicante. This was her reply:

    “I have now heard back from the relevant officer in the Consular Directorate in the Foreign Office concerning your case. I am sorry that you will find the response disappointing but the options open to the British Consul are limited because he is not able to intervene in the Spanish legal process.

    Please let me know if you feel that I can be of any further assistance to you, although given these limitations, I fear that this may not be the case.

    I hope that the outcome of the court decision is favourable.

    Yours sincerely,

    Carole Jackson MEP”

    Todate, we are still awaiting a decision from the court. The Judge ordered the thief to pay the monies into court but he has appealed.

    The words jurisdiction and appeal seem to be the norm in Spain with regard to court cases.

    Suzanne,

    Would be very happy to take part in your protest. Will send you a pm.

    Wishing you all success.

    Lizi

  • #72223
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Lizi wrote:

    Todate, we are still awaiting a decision from the court. The Judge ordered the thief to pay the monies into court but he has appealed.

    This is happening all of the time!! 😈

  • #72224
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I wrote to 2 of my MEP’s a couple of years ago.

    The first never replied despite me re-sending the same email 3 times and then reminders.

    The second did reply and promised to look into the matter but concluded a few weeks later that there was nothing she could do as we appeared to have bought an illegal house!!

    Not much use really as I’d already worked that one out for myself!

  • #72225
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The odd letter/email here & there may have no impact. If they are literally bombarded, they may take note. I think whether you hear or not a follow up letter 7/10 days later should follow…just so they know you mean business.

  • #72228
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Lizi wrote:

    I also wrote to my MEP, Caroline Jackson back in March 2005 regarding my fraud case. She approached the relevant officials in the Foreign Office who contacted the Consultate in Alicante. This was her reply:

    “I…….the options open to the British Consul are limited because he is not able to intervene in the Spanish legal process………Carole Jackson MEP”
    Lizi

    This reply is unacceptable.
    Quote from Gov. website:
    ‘The European Commission acts as the guardian of the treaties, ensuring that member states respect the treaties and community law, and that they implement adopted legislation…..’ etc.

    Spain is a member of the European Union & cannot do just as they wish, which is what they seem to be getting away with at the moment.
    This is why I urge all to write to Geoff Hoon as the Minister for Europe (contact details at beginning of thread). Local MPs may know very little about the Malaya Case & have little interest anyway. They will find it easy to wash their hands of someone buying ‘an illegal property’ and not understand the full details.

  • #72229
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    MANY MANY thanks to all who have responded to this thread.

    Mark has given me his o.k. & permission to get this Petition started via SPI – thank you very much Mark – if we get enough contributors you may be able to mention it in one of your articles ❓

    Now christened SPSP – Spanish Property Scandal Petition & is up & running.

    I’m working on details of some more contacts & will post them asap.
    Let as many people as possible know about this & we will go arm-in-arm & banners if necessary to Number 10. Maybe a new PM will like something juicy to gain popularity – just like the Spanish MPs are doing.

  • #72230
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/media/en/default.htm#Target2

    Read ‘Maladministration’ too.
    May be a good souce for reporting lawyers who have lied to us, failed to get us BGs, refused to hand our files to a new lawyer etc etc.

    I know this is time-consuming & a real pain in the proverbials, but it’s VITAL to make a noise about this. What’s the saying about the oilest joints or something or other ❓ ❓

  • #72231
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    This is normal of MPs, Just before the last election I approached my local m.p. who I beleive at the time was the Housing minister some issues concerning planning/health and safety. After the usual “good to see you”
    not even looking at me. He told me point blank he does not have time. At least an honest MP, but he could afford as he had a18k majority.

    MPs will deal with cases where they have to write to the Council housing department to obtain Council property for the constituent, knowing very well that there are no Council properties availible. So the paper chase goes round and how many trees are being chopped for this paper merry go round.

    Yes, folks use your democratic and vote for them.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • #72232
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Would like to make it clear I am not talking about voting. That’s quite a separate & personal issue – totally different.

    STAY STRONG & POSITIVE, NOT DEFEATIST or none of us will get anywhere.

  • #72233
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,

    My partner and I have been everywhere to get justice. I contacted the fraud squad in England to see if they could help but they said as the money had left our bank account in England there was very little they could do.

    Our off-plan property we purchased in June 2003 has been sold to another English buyer. Why did they buy our half built property? I have photographic evidence of me in the property. I tried to put a charge on the property but as it was fraud this was not possible unless we paid an extremely large amount of money. It is nearly FOUR YEARS THIS THIEF has our money. The estate agents EUROPEAN VILLAGE AGENCY IN TORREVIEJA who sold us this off-plan property are still trading in Spain and should be ashamed of themselves treating us in such an appalling manner. Mr Rolf Dahlgren (the Director) and Brian Ridley (the English man from Newcastle) have some questions to answer.

    Lizi

  • #72234
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Lizi,

    Totally deplorable. Makes me sick. The developer has also had my money for nearly 4 years & I have nothing to show for it but an ulcer.

    Well done for naming these rogues here. PLEASE, if you only write one more letter, write to Geoff Hoon. Keep it as unemotional as possible (difficult, I know) & stick to the plain facts. It’s very important that we reach the correct people. Please don’t forget to contribute to the Petition. With you all the way.

  • #72235
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,
    I was not trying to take the lime light away from a very serious issue.

    What I was trying to say that this is how they behave, in most cases its quite obvious that they treat us with inferior level of education, inteligence etc, and any rebuff by them should not be accepted by us.

    While, we have to use all venues availible to us. We should keep our options open on all front.

  • #72236
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you Shakeel – I am your virtual friend you know ❓
    I agree with you 100%.

  • #72237
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,

    FOUR YEARS ALSO, this is not justice is it?

    The owner of our plot, MR JOACHIM FENOLLAR OF RURAL RESIDENCIAL AT CAMPOS DEL RIO, MURCIA, and not the builder we signed a contract with, has a proportion of our money as well.

    I have never experienced in all my life this type of behaviour. I can only put it down to the fact that the courts in Spain do not care.

    Lizi

  • #72238
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Let’s make them care, Lizi ❗

  • #72239
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,

    I am with you all the way.

    It is about time we had JUSTICE. I expect people to be honest.

    Lizi

  • #72240
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @GSB wrote:

    ….Organisation is key,keeping your story line in the public eye is parramount,all the main papers now carry stories on the land grab issue ,for instance PM Tony Blair will raise the LARU abuse with his spainish counter part during his meeting shortly.Publicity should be your weapon of choice,along with a political line to keep your issues in the politicans in tray. 💡
    Its not easy but it can be done

    Welcome Gary, & thanks for your input & excellent advice.

  • #72241
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Re. making a complaint to the European Ombudsman, bear in mind:

    * A complaint must be made within two years of the date when you became aware of the facts on which your complaint is based.

    * The Ombudsman does not deal with matters that are currently before a court or that have already been settled by a court.

  • #72242
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you suzanne i am as you mention a new member, but have been reading the forum for sometime,to be frank i thought about mentioning some time ago the possibility of setting up an organisation to fight the abuse’s that have occured,however i waited untill it became apparent that by and large you were all fighting your own corner

    You have almost immediatly got off to an excellant start ,giving your group a catchy name, neatly abrieviated,banner slogan next along the lines of fighting property fraud in Spain,rubbish, that attempt but you get the picture,the boring stuff will follow next , such as forming an association with a chair/president,folowed by the enivitable committee to impliment policy, and remain legal.Money, the next tricky bit but to achieve real impact you will need some funding ,first route is to raise funds by subscription to the group this should pay for news letters, setting up your own web site,with links to SSI of course!,producing leaflets for distribution at airports etc,informing people right from day one,for example,remember
    no one likes bad publicity,and when you get asked to leave the airport make certain the press and tv are there to record the event

    Representation is key, most of the big cases of the day are settled with an eye on EU human and civil rights law,this is where the solution to your cases lie

    Golden rule never give up, you all have a strong legal and moral case,your objective is to keep this matter in the public eye, this is where
    lpoliticions live and breathe ,your cases’s need the oxygen of publicity,this will sustain you through all the hard work ahead such as fund raising and maintaining the vital media contact.This situation will take more than a few well aimed letters to MEPs’ and politicians to resolve,however the one key ingredient that exsists on the forum is common sense,the clear and concise way your proplems are being discussed is a credit to you all,also there is knowlege and a lot of wisdom,harnessed well and i feel that you will prove to be a very skillfull adversary, against all those who have done you down. I think this is pm time for everyone to get together and start getting organised,One letter/email can be ignored, one thousand cannot. BOL Gary

  • #72243
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Morning Charlie,

    Thanks for that vital piece of info – I will read up more today. I am sure that many will still fall within the 2 years – just shows how important it is for ACTION asap.

  • #72244
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Some great ideas 🙂 good to hear the Brits fighting back! Just a suggestion but how about putting a petition on the 10 downing St. site for people to sign? it is read all over the world.

  • #72246
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Gary,

    Many many thanks again for the great advice & support. Leaflets at airports is a great idea – I also thought of the major stations, eg Waterloo, Clapham J. etc. These stations have links to airports & many off on their inspection trips travel through them. There are thousands of people in our situation, just getting a leaflet in their hand as they are on their way to/from work will also be effective.

    It is clear we need a dedicated website.
    Hope you are all o.k. with the name:
    SPSP – Spanish Property Scandal Petition

    On Monday I will go to my bank & get advice on setting up an account/signatures etc. This is all obviously going to cost a little with leaflets, website etc. But I will work on some leaflets this weekend & am happy to start that off myself. But the website has to come first, as leaflets etc will need to bear the SPSP name & contact details – we need a lot of names on the petition but they are out there – we just have to pull up our sleeves & have the determination to reach them. Possible links to other relevant & reputable sites is another excellent idea.

    The finer points need to be done by PM only – including those of us who can meet up in different areas – and it would be good if this were done on a regular basis, then people will get to know us.

    Like many of us I have a secular job too but am willing & determined to take the time to do this – PLEASE join me.

    Would just like to say that if it wasn’t for the support I have received this would not be happening. I recently had a long conversation with Charlie on the ‘phone in the very early hours when it all seemed so futile to me at the time. If we channel our Rights, knowledge & determination to the people who CAN make a difference it will do. The support is there for us & we don’t have any excuse to give up.

  • #72247
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry Katy, took me a while to write the last post & missed yours.

    Many thanks – will have a look at the website again 🙂
    There are so many of them ❗

  • #72248
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Leaflets can also be put up in Newsagents shop windows (with their permission of course) & handed out to anyone we travel with on trains/tube etc. How many people do you see looking bored when they are travelling – loads. Even if it is not relevant to them, if the name stands out they will remember it next time they hear one of their friends/colleagues/neighbours talking about their Spanish woes – and find it on the Net.

    Endless avenues for publicity – not to mention letter boxes 💡

  • #72249
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    😉 💡

    I think your ideas are gathering good momentum and should achieve results, anything is good to get rid of the minefield that is Spanish Property.

    How about canvassing outside Overseas Property Exhibitions in the UK as well, maybe with Banners and leaflets, as well as a ‘proper name and shame leaflet’, and also target the big Spanish sponsored stands that are often at these shows?

  • #72251
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Angie – Exhibitions – another great idea.

    I do think we need to be careful about ‘naming & shaming’ individuals/organisations on a leaflet – even when they deserve it – i.e. the legal implications. But individuals reporting their own experiences on a website that people can be directed to is another thing. I am sure they could be named there – we all have the proof to back up our experiences & I have no hesitation of dislosing that proof to anyone.

  • #72252
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Would just like to add in case anyone is offended or feels left out:
    We know there are some excellent & reputable Spanish lawyers, agents, architects etc who post on here regularly. They too have my support.

  • #72253
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    just briefly read through the thread you started. The best person to send a letter to would be Michael Cashman – he of Eastenders fame who is MEP for Coventry. He is also the vice president of the EU petitions committee – this is the body that are currently investigating land abuses in Valencia but they are broadening it to look at urbanistic abuses in general

    His website is http://www.michaelcashmanmep.org.uk/

    Michael Cashman MEP
    Rue Wiertz 60
    ASP 13G316
    1047 Brussels
    Belgium
    Belgium Phone: 00-32-2-2845759
    West Midlands Phone: 00-44-121-569-1923
    Email: michael.cashman@europarl.europa.eu

    You may also wish to contact Charles Svodoba of Abusos No (http://www.abusos-no.org) who has organised a similar action regarding the land abuses in Valencia and is collaborating with other regions on similar abuses. He may or may not be willing to collaborate on this but he will put you in touch with the right people and he has direct contact with Said Michael Cashman and the committee – as he has spoken to them. He is a very likeable chap who is very approachable.

    Good luck in your quest and if their is anything i can do to help just ask

    Vince

  • #72254
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Vince, pm on its way

  • #72257
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, just a thought about where you all could be going with this,bear in mind the property industries resiliance to bad shocks etc ,factor in for the near future working with the good guys in the industry,this will allow you to offer up a sort of kite mark for good companies,who observe a good practice guide ,this should be readily achievable through the REAs’ who already contribute to this forum.Whilst this may not immediatly assist you directly ,it will assist your class action greatly,by providing your group with dual exposure,by not just warning people of potential proplems,shall we say the down side , the upside is look, we know the companies who we can recommend and trust,this will also provide your group with funding etc,obviously this can be very difficult to balance correctly, but it just means that the steering group responsible for inter industry communications will need to be above board and beyond reproach.

    This is about controling the space where you will be fighting it out with your enemy ,the property companies concerned will clearly fight back, one way of diluting your claims would be by instigating an industry wide approval scheme ,obviously if you already occupy the space marked ,buy here with confidence ,we have checked this scheme out and the supporting companies ,ie solicitors REAs etc, then they will now have to vie with your considerable heart felt experience in order to convience the buying public,you will have enough enemies to battle with, you will also need some friends,outside the normal support group of supporters and media budies.However get the main ball rolling for now ,get all your systems in place,then begin tackling the bigger picture, other ideas are bubbling through my brain cell ,but at the risk of overload will leave at that for the momment,incidently the Sunday People or the News of World,i cant remember which, have a brilliant Lady journalist who has been more than happy to run stories regarding property abuses in Spain.You are up and running,well done

  • #72261
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi

    So you want to deal with the Politicians eh?

    Here is the site you need for that http://www.theyworkforyou.com/

    Good luck

    Regards

    Paul

  • #72263
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi paul , you are right of course I would not suggest you deal directly as such with politicians ,rather it is about gaining the high ground ie publicity , media interest, etc, that encourages media contact ,therefore like a moth to a flame when you do have contact with them ie polititicians ,it matters, results can happen . Let us think about what is at stake here for those with a vested interest , millons and millons of euros, simply posting a response to your regional mep or similar just will not cut it ,These people receive scores of similar emails daily ,start small ,think big ,all of you out there who have been wronged, contact your local paper back in your country of origin,not being unfair to them but when I read the frankly low level stuff that gets printed here in rural Somerset it makes your toes curl.Now a story line about a girl or guy or Family who get turned over in Spain especially a story regarding property fraud ,dynamite , headlines read ,Warning, local family left virtually homeless/lost all their deposit/recently retired to Spain now face working till they drop to pay off corrupt developer in Spain ,priceless to a hard pressed local news editor,

    Never,never underestimate the media’s love of bad news stories where ever they are located,at the momment the tide is with you,Spain is getting some pretty bad press ,when you throw a stone in a pond the ripples flow outward ,this is what you must do here ,from a ripple comes the tidal wave ,eg it may not be that easy to get a story published about the stuff that has happned on the forum in the mainstream press ,however if you are able to direct the news editor to a whole series of bad practice stories that have appeared in the Doncaster Herald ,the Yorkshire Post ,and the Western Gazette,then you have your wave.

    And surprise surprise you will have your political champion,publicity is your flame ,nah just writing letters nowhere, the glare of the international digital camera light ,later to be shown on watchdog ,story line to read , from Nicky Cambell,or that gorgeous brunette Lady who co presents Watchdog,just when you thought it was safe to invest in Spain,another much bigger,and potentially more serious proplem has come to light etc etc.this should be your aim,start appearing in the mainstream channels ie the morning show ,Sunday Times etc ets, and YOU will be fighting off political support, in fact you will be holding a beauty parade ,to decide who to represent you.From little acorns etc etc.

  • #72266
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    14 solid hours later:

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    Comments welcome ❗

  • #72267
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I will add Logo asap. There may be a problem on Contact page, been on to host but still doesn’t seem to be working 🙄
    +
    Many thanks to Vince for his input & patience with me

  • #72268
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    Thanks for the link.

    Just one point though – your website currently is ONLY appealing to those who have been affected (you ask for details of the complaint etc). Whilst this is great – there are others (like myself) who will happily lend support and make our own voices heard against such abuses – but it seems because we personally haven’t been affected we are excluded and therefore you are excluding a large proportion of people who would willingly help.

    Appreciate the website is in its infancy but perhaps this is something you should think about – many people KNOW of someone affected but not directly themselves – but still willing to join in.

    Just my tuppence worth and good luck on your quest

    Vince

  • #72269
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Re. making a complaint to the European Ombudsman bear in mind:

    * A complaint must be made within two years of the date when you became aware of the facts on which your complaint is based.

    * The Ombudsman does not deal with matters that are currently before a court or that have already been settled by a court

    .

    Does the above stand if a complaint is made to any “body” in Spain or the UK or just the European Ombudsman? If so, does that preclude Charlie & I joining the campaign as our case has been settled as far as return of monies is concerned?
    We still have an issue with our original law firm who has retained a considerable amount of money that we paid them upfront to take us to completion.( You know our case re the development!!) After three attempts at trying to settle this we are now going the Court route. Would our case be an acceptable contribution to the scandals?

    Lastly, as you know many people read this forum, including the very lawyers/developers/EA’s that we are complaining about. When the petition is signed, online ,by anyone of us affected by the scandals, is that information hidden from everyone else signing?

    Good Luck Suzanne. 😀 As we say, “When the going gets tough, the tough get going!”

  • #72271
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzy – we are bowled over with what you have achieved so far re. the new website in such a short time. You’ve obviously put in so many hours until now. Well done, tiger!

    K will pm you later re. help in making the website visible on search engines such as Google etc.

    May I make just a little suggestion re. the bigger picture. Don’t feel you need to run before you walk with this. If you want to climb Mount Everest, you shouldn’t start the journey with a fast jog – you’ll run out of puff and your legs will collapse!
    For a first step, you are doing great!

  • #72272
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @vbtudor wrote:

    Just one point though – your website currently is ONLY appealing to those who have been affected (you ask for details of the complaint etc). Whilst this is great – there are others (like myself) who will happily lend support and make our own voices heard against such abuses – but it seems because we personally haven’t been affected we are excluded and therefore you are excluding a large proportion of people who would willingly help.
    Vince

    Many thanks Vince, & very good point.
    As far as the main Petition goes it needs to have as many names as possible who are actually personally fighting for justice. This will make it more powerful to present.

    But I do think that a ‘Petition of Support’ would also be great for people like you who are willing to contribute to, who are aware of the situation in Spain & know how individuals are being affected.

    I will add this to the website. Many thanks again.

  • #72273
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Morning Claire,

    The Petition is going to the top (hopefully via the Minister for Europe) & not the Ombudsman so we should all be able to contribute.

    ANYONE fighting for justice in Spain (re property & lawyers) need to be included – which of course includes you & Charlie (you should both be at the top of the list). So many of us have had to change lawywers but the previous lawyer is still owing us money – they too need to be brought to justice.

    Thanks for pointing this out to me – I shall add it to the website. Thank goodness I paid for a larger one – we are sure going to need it.

  • #72274
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Charlie & K,
    Thanks for your advice – I need to keep remembering it.

    I have entered search words & phrases to help the website be easily located & will test it out today. Look forward to Ks input. Am also working on a proper logo – I’ve got a firm picture in mind which I think would be very apt ❗

    Would like to add that I don’t think the Petition should be viewed on line (I have received an email with this concern) as this could make it open to abuse etc. Hopefully people will trust me enough to know that I will keep their information confidential, be diligent, but will continually update re numbers etc.

    I don’t know where the day went yesterday, didn’t even have my usual few glasses of wine I was so absorbed ❗

  • #72276
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Claire wrote:

    Lastly, as you know many people read this forum, including the very lawyers/developers/EA’s that we are complaining about. When the petition is signed, online ,by anyone of us affected by the scandals, is that information hidden from everyone else signing?

    Good Luck Suzanne. 😀 As we say, “When the going gets tough, the tough get going!”

    The Petition will be added to off-line & taken from the emails I receive. I think this is the best way of doing it – as we gain more publicity hopefully more people will be moved to contribute.

    Hope you all agree that is o.k. ❓

  • #72279
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Contact page seems to be working fine now.

    Have now added a further page ‘Secondary Petition’.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    Hope there aren’t any spelling mistakes I’ve missed (can’t see straight now) ❓ Please keep your very welcome advice/comments coming in ❗

    Now going to open a cold bottle of wine – phew ❗

  • #72280
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Wonderful Suzanne,

    Site looking good – soothing to the eye.

    Please could you add, if possible, jurisidiction problems, swindle crimes bail money appeals and double sale of property.

    All the best,

    Lizi

  • #72289
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have added double-sale of property – thanks for that Lizi, excellent.
    More still to be added asap.

    129 ‘Unique Visits’ in 36 hours to new website, 4 on petition so far – please contribute ❗ For those of you not personally fighting in court there is a Secondary Petition – many with reputable businesses in Spain are also being affected by the property scandal in Spain. PLEASE contribute with a short supporting message. Many thanks.

  • #72305
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As I promised…

    Have received a reply this am from Derek Clark, MEP East Midlands, to say that he has sent a copy of my letter to the Spanish Ambassador in London asking if there is anything DC can possibly do.

    At the end of a short paragraph he says, “I would not advise anyone to consider engaging with the Spanish legal system. Just because we are in the European Union does not make this any easier.”

    DC will keep in touch.

  • #72306
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @roots wrote:

    As I promised…

    …. “I would not advise anyone to consider engaging with the Spanish legal system. Just because we are in the European Union does not make this any easier.” DC will keep in touch.

    Interesting comment & exactly why we have to take this to another level ❗ ❗ ❗
    Many thanks for that Roots – look forward to more from you.

  • #72336
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Contributions to Our Petition are streaming in. Many thanks – & also for some great ideas on getting it seriously into the public eye 8)

    Please keep them coming.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #72337
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    it may be an idea to put the petition online (keep everyones details anonymous unless they agree to it). Reason being if I was a person who had happened upon the site it doesn’t seem like there is anything going on – at least viewing the comments would inspire people to add theirs in a kind of “Hey that happened to me also” way.

    Just a suggestion but it feels like literature for a house without the picture of the outside (if that makes sense)- not quite the complete picture

    Just an opinion of course and in no way a criticism

    Good luck

    Vince

  • #72338
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @vbtudor wrote:

    …. it doesn’t seem like there is anything going on …

    Vince

    Give us a chance Vince ❗ ❗ ❗ It’s only been almost 3 days.

    I’ve attempted to make the first page as hard-hitting as possible, so that the people who have taken the time out to visit it will be able to relate to it straightaway.

    I’ve also outlined the reasons why the ACTUAL PETITION should not be viewed on line, but have said that there will be a page for anyone who wishes to have their story on the website for others to read (they can chose whether to have their names there or not – probably better not for obvious reasons). Why should the people we are fighting against, & the people we are targeting for ACTION!!! know what weapons we have before we present them ❓ Obviously, as this (personal stories) page grows, more & more will respond.

    Have also stated that the website is new – showing ‘May 2007’ for anyone wondering how ‘new’ it is.

    I’m working very hard to get this website as effective as possible, & can only do this mostly evenings/weekends. Lots of ideas & suggestions will be posted asap, & more are very welcome.

    What do others think about Actual Petition being on-line ❓ ❓

  • #72340
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    sorry didn’t mean to criticise that was not my intention. I appreciate a lot of work has gone into it in a short space of time and I genuinely think you have done a great job.

    I also understand the reasons for not putting up the petition online – but I do think that personal stories and anecdotes create a community if you like of belonging to the same “Wronged” club – just like this forum in a sense.

    And I am sure that people generally wouldn’t mind if their stories were put online (of course you could ask them if they would be willing ot put their stories online rather than just doing it)

    By the way my comment – “it doesn’t seem like there is anything going on” wasn’t relating to the website – it was more like the example i gave of the house without the outside picture – you know that everything is there but there is just that something missing to complete the picture. It was a sensation I got so thought I would relay this.

    Anyway I am sure that, with the vigour you are putting into it – it wont be too long before Gordon Brown (or whoever will be the new Prime minister) will be knocking on your door to run his election campaign

    Best wishes as always

    Vince

  • #72342
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne & Vince,

    I think that your comments Vince re some online quotes from people( who need not be named) is a valid point and a very good idea. It will give them an idea of the injustices that are happening to others. Putting the link on other websites would be good too. I also think it needs to be put out to another form of media. There are people who are affected by the Spanish scandals who do not use or know of the existence of forums like these. 😯

    Although we know that the peition is in it’s infancy, some visitors may expect to see more evidence of “signatures”. It does look “quiet” at the moment. This is not a personal critisism of the great job you are doing Suzanne, but I hope you will see it as “constructive” comments! 🙂

    It is all very time consuming setting something like this up, and you are also working. When I was trying to find other people in our sorry situation in 2005, and then co-ordinating information to our “group” I was on the PC & telephone for most of the day.( I was in the fortunate position of being at home) This went on for many, many months. It did take it’s toll on me and it took over my day to day life for a while. The end result made it all worth while though. Charlie & I still support other members of our group through their Court battles. We all need to support one another!

    Suzanne, I have a contact from the Evening Standard who also reports for BBC News 24. The reporter in question, interviewed me on TV and wrote an article in the ES. From this and through Mark writing in the Sunday Times about our situation, we got a massive response from other buyers and other media stations. I know you have been approached by a very prominent program, but at short notice to “appear” on camera for them. I can understand that would be difficult for you to take up this offer.

    I look forward to hearing your latest reports. 😀

    My very best wishes,

    Claire

  • #72344
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi everyone

    3rd reply in this am. It came from Bill Newton Dunn, MEP East Midlands. He refers to my ‘distressing letter’. I quote,

    “Having read your letter carefully, I’m sorry to have to reply that my opinion (being a scientist not a lawyer) is that this is a case of internal Spanish law and of their criminal law. You say that the house build was illegal and the case is about breach of contract.

    There is no European Criminal law. And European laws exist to deal with disputes across borders.

    It seems to me, therefore, that your recourse lies in the Spanish courts – because there is no European court or European law to which you can appeal.

    I am sorry not to be able to suggest a solution at European level.”

    So, nothing new there then!

    roots

  • #72345
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi everyone

    3rd reply in this am. It came from Bill Newton Dunn, MEP East Midlands. He refers to my ‘distressing letter’. I quote,

    “Having read your letter carefully, I’m sorry to have to reply that my opinion (being a scientist not a lawyer) is that this is a case of internal Spanish law and of their criminal law. You say that the house build was illegal and the case is about breach of contract.

    There is no European Criminal law. And European laws exist to deal with disputes across borders.

    It seems to me, therefore, that your recourse lies in the Spanish courts – because there is no European court or European law to which you can appeal.

    I am sorry not to be able to suggest a solution at European level.”

    So, nothing new there then!

    roots

  • #72346
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quick question…

    Has anyone had any dealings at a diplomatic level with their cases? Positive/negative?

    We have a new Ambassador to Spain in place this month, Mrs Denise Holt, CMG. She’s based in Madrid. Ambassadors are there to represent and promote British interests (allegedly).

    roots

  • #72347
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Quote from Foreign Office:

    ‘The functioning of the European judicial area could be undermined by differences between national criminal legislation. Approximation of legislation is needed to avoid criminals using differences between national legislations legislation to operate from one EU country toward others, to give EU citizen a common sense of justice, and to facilitate mutual recognition. That is why all the areas where international crime could develop by using the suppression of border control have given raise to approximation of legislation.
    As regards…… financial crime (in particular money laundering, corruption, or fraud ……)……. legal texts have been adopted or are being negotiated in order to adopt common definitions and to harmonise the level of sanctions.’ End of quote.

    I find Mr Dunn’s comments totally unacceptable & disagree with them. MEPs cannot wash their hands of this problem & hope that it/we will ‘go away’. Mr Dunn also seems to disagree with the comments of Derek Clark, MEP East Midlands “I would not advise anyone to consider engaging with the Spanish legal system”.

    Many thanks to you all – more to come asap

  • #72348
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Vince, Claire & Roots – very much appreciate your input. I have an idea which I have put to Mark & will let you all know if it pans out. Working hard on website to include ‘Personal Experiences’ asap.

  • #72349
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Foreign Office:
    ‘The European Commission has the right of initiative in the area of judicial co-operation in civil and commercial matters. The Commission is responsible for devising policies and actions and implementing them. The Commission also co-operates with international organisations, such as the Hague Conference on Private International Law, the Council of Europe and the United Nations.’

    I think that most of our cases started out as ‘Civil Law’ & are now also entering into ‘Criminal Law’. The EC should still be working for us.

  • #72353
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As it seems that most of the complaints we submit to the Colegio de Abogados are being either ignored or rejected I am also compiling a separate confidential document (with the permission of contributor of course) with the names of these lawyers & details of the complaints. This will also be presented to the relevant Spanish authorities & to the British Government in support of Our Petition.

    It will be very interesting to learn which lawyers are repeatedly added to this document 8)

  • #72356
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I would actually lay money on who will come out top of the list Suzanne!!!

  • #72363
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The UK Gov. could act against all the UK agents who have actively been selling (and still are!) illegal properties without LFO. Could also be useful to bombard the Spanish Embassy in the UK. Whatever you do it has to be better than taking it lying down. Good Luck! 🙂

  • #72366
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You’ve echoed my thoughts Katy ❗

    spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk
    has had 290 ‘Unique Visits’ in 4 days. 12 have contributed to Our Petition during that time. There are thousands more who can contritubte & I’ll be sending info over the weekend re leaflets etc to those who have added to Our Petition. Google searches apparently take a while to be activated so ACTION with our feet distributing info is vital now also.

    Please bear with me while I do more work on the website – picture to come soon.

    The more ‘signatures’ we have the more powerful our voice will be – and we will NOT be ignored or ‘swept under the carpet.

  • #72371
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, when you post your website’s link on this forum, you can’t give it a dark blue colour, otherwise people won’t be able to click on it. Do it in black and it will automatically come up as a clickable light blue as per below:

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #72373
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Oh dear, thank you very much Charlie – I’m learning all the time ❗

  • #72383
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ‘European Court of Justice finds against Spain for illegal rubbish tips in Almería

    The case followed a complaint lodged by the European Commission

    The European Court of Justice has found Spain guilty of infringing European environmental legislation for three illegal rubbish tips in Almería province: they are in Níjar, Hoyo de Miguel and Cueva del Mojón.

    It follows a complaint against Spain lodged by the European Commission regarding the tips.

    The court rejected the Spanish authorities’ argument that there was no toxic or dangerous waste at any of the sites as not pertinent to the case.

    The Junta de Andalucía’s environmental department for the province announced on Thursday that two of the illegal sites have already been closed down and that the other, in Cueva del Mojón, covers several plots of private land: its owners were fined, they said, and told to restore the local environment to its former state. They also have the option of setting up it up as a properly controlled tip and apply for necessary authorisation.

    © Copyright 2007 by typicallyspanish.com

    If the European Commission can lodge a complaint re: illegal rubbish tips in Spain, they can certainly do so for illegal buildings on our behalf.

    PLEASE, if you have not done so, take a few minutes out to write to Geoff Hoon, The Minister for Europe – contact details at beginning of this thread.

  • #72385
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I am just a very interested onlooker and you obviously have my sympathy for all your problems. Thankfully I have no bad experience to add to your growing list (yet ) but one thing occurs to me and forgive me if it has been mentioned before.
    As the Spanish are so fond of treating your problems as purely internal affairs and nothing to do with British or E.U. law, why not use their own laws against them?
    Instead of flogging a dead horse by taking a Developer, R.E.A. or Bank to Court why not sue the Adjuntament or Mayor or whoever else is responsible for gross negligence and breach of duty ? Is this possible or just stupid ? 😳 Do any Spanish Law-firms operate on a no foal, no fee basis ? Just a thought and yes I have been drinking and still am as I write this.

  • #72387
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Antibarney wrote:

    As the Spanish are so fond of treating your problems as purely internal affairs and nothing to do with British or E.U. law, why not use their own laws against them?

    By Petitioning the EU Commission we are using their own laws against them – Spain is part of the EU but is flouting its laws.

    Instead of flogging a dead horse by taking a Developer, R.E.A. or Bank to Court why not sue the Adjuntament or Mayor or whoever else is responsible for gross negligence and breach of duty ?

    Believe me, none of us are ‘flogging a dead horse’ 😡

    Is this possible or just stupid ? 😳 Do any Spanish Law-firms operate on a no foal, no fee basis ? Just a thought and yes I have been drinking and still am as I write this.

    Not sure whether you are being serious here or not ❓ RE: your final comment – it won’t go in the box 🙄 Sorry, I seem to have computeritis.

  • #72388
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have now put forms on the website so this should make it easier for people to contribute on the page/s they want to. More to be done over the weekend.

    The ‘Lawyer Complaint/s’ Form has started. Obviously wouldn’t mention any names here, but no prizes for guessing who is at the top ❗ Same complaints/serious breaches of professional conduct etc.

    Please remember; you folks who aren’t fighting in court but are well aware of all the problems, please add a comment to the ‘Secondary Petition’ – the more support we have the better. There are so many of you who contribute here – it will only take a minute or two at the most.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    Thank you very much

  • #72406
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    Thanks again for the PM reference your Lawyer.
    Unfortunately, as there offices are not local to Almeria he cannot help.

    The search for an honest Spanish Lawyer goes on!
    Regards
    Jason

  • #72408
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Jason,

    Have a look under ‘Resources & Solutions’ at top of SPI page – mark has a lawyer listed for Almeria.

    Will be in touch again soon.
    Regards, Suzanne

  • #72416
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Reply no 4

    From El Defensor del Pueblo (Ombudsman), Madrid

    Using my almost non-existent Spanish and the computer’s free translation service the reply seems to say that my letter was received, will be acted upon and I will be notified of any progress.

    However, just in case I’ve missed anything significant, here’s the whole thing.

    “En cumplimiento de lo dispuesto en el articulo 15.2 de la Ley Organica 3/1981, de 6 de abril, se acusa recibo de su comunicacion, que ha sido registrada con el numero de expediente arriba indicado, al que debe hacer referencia si se dirige de nuevo a esta Institucion.

    Le informo que se ha iniciado el estudio del asunto que ha sido sometido a nuestra consideracion y se le mantendra puntualmente informado de toda la tramitacion relativa al mismo.

    En todo casa, le indico que la presentacion de un escrito en el Defensor del Pueblo no suspende la ejecucion de las resoluciones administrativas o judiciales, ni tampoco interrumpe los plazos legales para recurrir contra ellas si fuera procedente.”

    [Translation from the web]
    In fulfillment of the arranged in the article 15.2 of the Law Organica 3/1981, of 6 of April, there is accused receipt of his communication, which has been registered by the number of records above stated, to that it must allude if it goes again to this Institution.

    I inform him that there has begun the study of the matter that has been submitted to our consideration and one will keep him punctually informed about the whole procedure relative to the same one.

    In everything house, I indicate him that the presentation of a writing in the Defender of the People neither suspends the execution of the administrative or judicial resolutions, it does not also interrupt the legal period to resort against them if it was proceeding.

    roots

  • #72418
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Holy smoke ❗ Guess it sounds complicated enough to be ‘official’ though 🙂
    Will send a letter to El Defensor del Pueblo (Ombudsman), Madrid also. May we have the address please Roots & many thanks for posting this.

  • #72428
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    Here’s the website:

    http://www.defensordelpueblo.es/web_ingles/Index.asp

    and the postal address:

    El Defensor del Pueblo
    Eduardo Dato, 31
    28010 Madrid
    Espana

    I was advised to write to this man by a regular contributor to this Forum. She suggested that I focus my complaints on 1) the practices of the Banks with the Bank Guarantees and 2) the trade matter relating to the breach of contract, misleading advertising etc on the part of Eralia. With my letter I sent a copy of my bank guarantee together with an outline of my case.

    Hope this helps.

    roots

  • #72437
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks to those who have sent me a PM reference reputable Lawyers.

    Hopefully won’t be to long before we start the long process of a court case.

    Suzanne – I’ve been in contact with another ‘purchaser’ from my development and they should be signing the petition today.
    Keep up the good work.

    Regards

    Jason

  • #72438
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    That’s great Jason & thanks for letting others know & for the support. Thanks to Roots too for address.

    Have put a picture on today. Have made the house in the Spanish flag colours.
    Hope to get some ‘stories’ on the new page by tomorrow too.
    Please keep your suggestions & contributions coming in. They are VERY welcome. Many thanks.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #72440
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The website is now 8 days old & already we have 19 ‘signatures’ to Our Petition. This is mainly through SPI website only – MANY THANKS MARK.
    Once the leaflets get out there & more people are aware of what we are doing the numbers will shoot up, I am sure.

    Please keep them coming in. Don’t forget also to add to the ‘Lawyer Complaint/s’ document, & for those of you not fighting you can still add your support on the Secondary Petition. I promise that everything you send to me will be kept strictly confidential. Thank you.

  • #72442
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Three more additions to ‘Lawyer Complaints’ page in last half an hour.
    Keep them coming in ❗ Thank you 🙂

  • #72454
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Today Our Petition has grown by 30%. Many thanks to those of you who are contributing & also working hard letting others know. This is excellent news 🙂

  • #72465
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    I have already sent an email to the Minister for Europe showing to him my availability.

    Best,

    Maria

  • #72467
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    That’s great news Maria. If you have a chance to look at the ‘Secondary Petition’ on http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk that would be good too. We know there are some excellent lawyers, like you, who we can trust in Spain & their support is also very important in highlighting the problems & the credibility of Our Petition.

    I’ve not received a response from Geoff (Hoon) yet! So, will be writing again today with copies to other MEPs.
    Thank you Maria.
    Best regards, S

  • #72468
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    I have already taken a look at the webiste and will go again now for written presence there too.

    Please have me for anything you may need regarding this action. This is something which is really needed and I have been thinking of for months now.

    Best regards,

    Maria

  • #72469
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    EXCELLENT Maria. Your support is very important & really appreciated. I will be in touch soon & PM you.
    Best, S

  • #72513
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    8 more additions to Our Petition today. FANTASTIC 😀

  • #72517
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,It seems that matters are now moving apace ,with Maria’s interest in the cause ,and the increase in the petition, attention is building, tomorrow I will post the details Of SPSP on the Tortsa Forum as I am aware of problems in this area due to dodgy Mayors and the granting of illegal building licences’s,same wine different bottle,Great job by the way

  • #72519
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks Gary; you’ve been a great source of support and wise words from the website’s beginning. Really appreciate this.

  • #72561
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi

    I’ve posted a link to the petition on the developer page on our non existent development.
    I’ve also posted a link on the eye on spain estate agents forum.

    Good to hear that more people are signing up. Keep up the good work Suzanne, it’s bound to be worth it in the end.

    Regards

    Jason

  • #72566
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I received yesterday a further reply from Robert Kilroy Silk enclosing a copy of his letter from The Ambassador of Spain re my case.

    I quote, “I understand from your letter that we are dealing with a strictly judicial matter, and therefore the Judicial Court in the area is the competent authority in this instance.

    However, I would suggest your constituent contact the British Consular Authorities at the following address, as they deal with the protection of Britiish Citizens and interests abroad:

    British Consulate
    Edificio EUROCOM
    C/Mauricio Moro Pareto, 2,2
    29006 Malaga
    Tel: +34 95 235 2300
    Fax: + 34 95 235 9211
    E-mail: postmaster@malaga.mail.fco.gov.uk

    Yours sincerely,
    Carlos Miranda
    Count of Casa Miranda”

    A couple of days ago I asked on this thread whether anyone has had any experience (positive or negative) of dealing with their case at a consular level but as I’ve had no replies I will ask it again just in case it was missed.

    I would be interested to hear. Thanks.

    roots

  • #72567
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots – we all seem to be getting the same reply – fobbed off.

    Suzanne

    How many people on the Petition now? Keep up the remarkable work.

    Lizi

  • #72573
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Jason – many thanks for continuing to ‘spread the word’ – will be in touch soon with updates.

    Roots – I’ve had no replies yet from my letters but will of course post whatever I receive.

    Lizi- We won’t continue to be fobbed off – please don’t lose heart.

    I believe that targeting those at the top is the only way to get ACTION. Dealing with Spanish ministers/ambassadors may not be the best people to aim at, at present. We all know the rot in Spain is very deep rooted, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record – we have to reach the TOP EU Ministers in this country & make them listen to us. The Colegio de Abogados won’t listen, the Judges are allowing ridiculous appeals by developers, etc etc.

    Remember:
    ‘The European Commission acts as the guardian of the treaties, ensuring that member states respect the treaties and community law, and that they implement adopted legislation…..’ etc.

    All those who have ‘signed’ the Petition will get regular updates of numbers etc. I don’t think it is a good idea to post the numbers & details of how we are progressing on line – our weapons should be hidden until we are ready to use them ❗ Goodness gracious, I’m starting to sound like an Army General 😯

  • #72588
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have received a copy of another response from The Spanish Ambassador in London. He continues to direct us to the British Consulate in Malaga (as posted by Roots, above) with the additional comment “the practical approach would be to find a Spanish Lawyer…who will advise…” 😯

    These people are not listening to us. Maybe it’s too big a problem for them to cope with 8)

    Everybody – PLEASE write to Geoff Hoon, Minister For Europe (details at beginning of this thread). He is the man we need to reach. As Gary said a few days ago, one email can be ignored but one thousand CANNOT. And, if you haven’t ‘signed’ Our Petition yet – it is waiting for YOU. Many thanks 🙂 🙂 🙂

  • #72591
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    We all know how these offices/department work, we also know that it not possible for a Country to interfere with the legal system of another Country.

    People who write to the Ambasador, MPs, foreign office etc are not asking to influence the legal proceedings. All they are doing is to inform them and expect them to take the matter with the relevent person/department at their level. Not simply wish for a happy out come.

    We are adults and we dont need to be treated in a condescending manner. Personally if I receive this kind of a reply from my MP, I will approach them again. Let them do some for the gravy train.

  • #72592
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, I was being serious, I wouldn’t dream of making light of the predicaments in which many of you have found yourselves. Re. the flogging of dead horses, I was not inferring that you were doing that now, but that you seemed to have been in the past. Please excuse the lack of clarity in my message of wholehearted support for your endeavour.

    Ronnie.[/quote]

  • #72608
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for that Ronnie, & very much appreciate your support.

    As Shakeel points out, some of the responses we are getting from officials seem rather ‘condescending’, but I think is par for the course & rather than dampening our spirit it should incite us to even more determination in our Action ❗

  • #72617
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,Just to say that I know how it feels when you recieve what appears to be the usual fob off from officials elected or otherwise,however you are in a process situation of sorts ,and with all these situations there is a sort of code that exists, that once you have started to crack it, things start to happen.

    I fully understand that you cannot run before walking ,but do not lose sight
    of the power of Media intervention, I am not in any way making light of the totally devastating situation that the McCann Family are in , as they hunt for their missing Madeline, but out of sheer desperation they have had to organise a very effective Media campaign which has kept their story in the public domain.

    Never underestimate the Media’s love of these type of stories ,there has been a mention on the forum about a contact in the Media ,the Evening Standard I believe, factor this in for futher consideration, the Media will prove to be a huge ally, what happens is that media attention attracts politicans ,because in a way they are both existing in the same arena,I know ,I know, you cannot do everything but if you wish to make headway with politicans you have to fully activate Media interest ,you will be amazed what a few well placed articles in the press can do for the profile of your cause ,I did suggest in a previous thread that everone starts the process by writing to their local paper this can create a cumulative effect ,as I acept that it may prove difficult to convince hard nosed newsdesk editors on the broadsheets and Redtops to run with a new story ,but show a continuous run of relevant news stories in the regional press ,and hey presto your story now has some legs.

    You have to use every trick in the book ,and this one will bring the results

  • #72622
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Once again Gary, wise & succinct words which are so welcome.

    I’ve been working on an article and hope to be able to submit it initially to the local press; also had a contact years ago at the Express and will approach them too. Another excellent suggestion (thank you Shakeel) is Sur in English.

    A double-sided leaflet is almost ready – I’m just working on it so that it can be printed easily onto A4 paper & sliced down the middle, for those who have ‘signed’ Our Petition & are willing to download & distribute. Tomorrow I shall take some to the local library, & while I am at Kingston Hospital (only a blood test!) will wander around the out-patient clinics & waiting rooms & leave some there (amazing how easy it is for anyone to do that these days!). Busy stations in the rush hour is also a good idea, and Citizen’s Advice Bureau. Even if people are not personally affected there is a very good chance they know someone who is.

    When we get some articles printed that will reinforce all this hard work we are doing & people wil be reminded over & over.

    Thanks to everyone for their support, great ideas & suggestions.
    You’re amazing 😀

  • #72624
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Suzanne,
    Have mentioned this before but although the CAB cannot personally do anything for people caught up in this mess they are very successful in highlighting cases and presenting them to No 10. Many a bad situation they have challenged and changed.
    As many people are first encouraged to “invest” abroad through exhibitions by UK companies it is worth inquiring if they would consider prioritising the situation.
    Perhaps the law could be changed and the UK promoters held responsible if the developments they are selling didn’t have correct paperwork etc.
    It appears as soon as they have their commission all obligations cease and that in my view is totally unethical British behaviour.

  • #72630
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good point Melosine re the CAB. It’s on my list ❗

    Have also added to the Leaflet to try & catch the attention of those off to property exhibitions/thinking of buying property in Spain . If this alerts some people as to what is going on & makes them stop & re-think/investigate further, rather than unwittingly signing away, it’s more than worth it.

    Just thought I should add, in case anyone thinks I’m sounding ‘anti-Spain’ – this is not true. I have loved the country & the Spanish people for many many years. What I am trying to focus on is justice for all those who have been cheated & lied to etc., (including the Spanish people).

  • #72631
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Hopefully none of us on this site are. But the situation needs addressing urgently.
    Understand ,from another forum, in response to my question
    ( quote)
    the promoters had to have DIA – documento informativo abreviado I think? Should have all the due diligence stuff in it. I think it became law for all agents/developers to have this document for each development about a year or so ago. (unquote).

    Just had some brilliant news ourselves. Our builder has finally caved in and signed the book of works !!! Whew.
    All due to our wonderful Spanish lawyer who used gentle persuasion instead of reading the riot act.

  • #72632
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine, I think it is a good idea to target UK based promoters,as a way of informing potential purchasers of the possible pitfalls of buying a property in Spain, however you cannot cross law ,as it were ,as in every case the properties have been consructed by Spanish companies and more importantly were purchased under Spanish property Law In Spain.

    The agents used to promote the schemes in the UK will obviously claim that they are acting in good faith as they can only operate with the relevant information as supplied to them by the Spanish constructors and Lawyers ,plus in some of the most serious cases aired on the forum it is apparent that even good independent lawyers have been duped into recommending to their clients that is ok to proceed ,it has then transpired that mis selling and worse has then occured.
    There may be a case for mis selling if a UK agent continued to promote the scheme after notifiable issues started to occur,this would be in breach of a whole raft of legistslation,including the mis descriptions and sale of goods and services acts. Under these circumstances a case could be brought for mis representation , however this action would be fraught with difficulties from day one as you would have to demonsrate to the courts that the agents were knowingly and deliberatly mis leading purchasers, and all the while the Agents could claim propbably successfuly that they at the time were operating of the feed that was supplied to them by the developers .
    However , you have hit one of the main targets here , companies do not like bad publicity,if at least the UK based promoters could be embarassed by bad publicity then they are more likely to drop the scheme ,no one wants a hot potato ,these type of situations are linked,start to create the idea that buying on one of these schemes is not a good investment and once the sales start to dry up, the developers will be forced to clean up their acts, bad publicity is like being starved of oxygen ,you better act pretty quickly ,if you dont it could be curtains.
    One major area were campagners will be able to strike hard is the debate over the sustainability of these schemes ,some of the Golf course developments claim that they use water recycling processs etc etc ,but in essence these are nothing more than token attempts at getting around water supply laws,and in fact are doing great damage to the wider enviroment.

  • #72633
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    For Lawyers claims:

    1.- Bar Associations.
    2.- National Council of Lawyers.
    3.- Ministry of Justice.

    Any other parallell support being found in the way would be added to 2 and 3 ( even National Ombudsman in the UK and in Spain).

    I think that just a National regulation is needed. WE can even go to National politicians now that the General Ellections are coming Spain.

  • #72634
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Quote GSB
    The agents used to promote the schemes in the UK will obviously claim that they are acting in good faith as they can only operate with the relevant information as supplied to them by the Spanish constructors and Lawyers unquote

    This is the area which is unacceptable and law tightened up. However this won’t happen until people unite and petition Governments in all countries involved to change and tighten up their appropriate laws. No cross over involved

    At the moment UK promoters/developers and lawyers can dismiss UK consumer law because the client is a willingly participant and any exchange of money happens out of the UK. Any complaints can be shrugged off and blamed solely on the other country involved.

    But acting in good faith when promoting/selling a product and having in house lawyers to make the clients feel totally comfortable with their purchase when they are only acting on information supplied is a total CON. If these firms acted out the same scenario totally in UK they would be in big trouble.
    IMHO change UK consumer law on this issue and Spanish will be forced to conform.

  • #72635
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Just like to point out that the Citizens Advice Bureau led the way into changing the law on the Time Shares scams most of which happened out of UK.

  • #72636
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    Principles od independeny and avoidance of conflict of interests are clearly stated in the National Deonthology Codes of our Proffession. I think that, regarging lawyers, just stronger measure need to be imposed on the Colegio de Abogados in order to act in these claims where the lack of independency of a lawyer is reported anyway.

    I see it as a cornerstone of everything happening. I am ashamed of the bad image some lawyers in Spain are produving with these non proffessional behaviour.

    That´s why I want to contribute, the image of my country and my proffession is very much being questioned. We are not gangsters.

  • #72638
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    May I please try & clarify exactly what we are doing. I am worried people may become ‘bogged down’ with info & not support the Petition.

    1. Our Petition will be going to No. 10 & the Minister for Europe.
    This will be made up of concise case histories of individuals, naming developers/lawyers/agents etc.

    2. Our Petition will also be supported by a Document: ‘Lawyers Complaints’ detailing the Breaches of Professional Code & Conduct, & of course naming these lawyers.
    This document will also be presented to the bodies that Maria has outlined – and as it is growing swiftly it may be an idea to present this before Our Petition (while we wait for that to increase in numbers) and see what is done.

    3. Unscrupulous Agents are a different matter (as Gary has outlined). When the above (1&2) are underway I think this will expose & damage them without us having to do much more. They will end up having shot themselves in the foot, so to speak, as they will be exposed & will either go out of business or have to seriously clean up their act ❗ Even if they go to other countries, the public will be much more aware & wary of their practices.

    As Melosine says, the CAB can be a powerful medium for alerting the public & instigating changes. Hopefully if enough are willing, leaflets (together with an introductory chat) can be distributed to their offices. There are many people caught up in this mess who don’t look on forums like this & feel very isolated & alone; these are the kind of people who go to the CAB etc for help & advice.

    There’s no doubt this is a challenge, but with enough of us soldiering on together there will be positive results, not only for us but also for the Spanish people who are not happy with what is happening to the ‘image’ of their country, as Maria so rightly says.

  • #72639
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Maria,
    Do hope that wasn’t the way my posting read.
    Apparently Goodstitch used a British lawyer and my Spanish lawyer has been fantastic .Very professional, thorough and totally ethical.
    Few bad eggs in every profession unfortunately.

  • #72642
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine

    yes, i did use a UK lawyer sadly. (now under investigation by the law society). The agent/UK lawyer, then advised us to use a Spanish lawyer to set things up in Spain, at that time we were unaware we had been stitched up by our UK agent, our UK lawyer, to some degree our then Spanish lawyer and most of all the developer Sofia. For a long while we just couldn’t believe they had all conned us. Eventually, after a few e-mails to Drakan, and a few others on the forum, it all became horribly clear. So as you say, good and bad everywhere. We are now using a well known Spanish lawyer who we trust has got us back on the right track.

  • #72643
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @mariadecastro wrote:

    I see it as a cornerstone of everything happening. I am ashamed of the bad image some lawyers in Spain are produving with these non proffessional behaviour.

    That´s why I want to contribute, the image of my country and my proffession is very much being questioned. We are not gangsters.

    Hi Maria

    I believe the Spanish can, and will, put their house in order.

  • #72646
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    I am sure we can. WE just need to react.
    Best weekend! I am badly 7 months pregnant and having my difficulties.
    I am ehthusiastic with this inititaive which I am sure will bring more spaniards along in the way.

  • #72647
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    And thanks so much Rawlins!
    M.

  • #72651
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maria,Firstly its a little late but congratulations on your pregnancy ,I expect that by now you will be wishing for the next two months to speed up a little.
    Your posts have been a revelation,with a very clear and concise explanation given on the subjects that you have referred to,I know that your obvious expertise has been a major boost for all those involved.

  • #72657
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Maria – I can feel your enthusiasm through your posts 😀
    Take it easy over the weekend.
    Best S x

  • #72659
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    For those of you who are still asking me what is the point of going to the European Commission/British Government 😯 😯

    Quote Typicallyspanish:
    ‘European Union says the bathing water quality is poor on 14 Spanish beaches.
    The European Commission has suspended the water quality found on 14 beaches in Spain. Five of the problems are on the Costa del Sol and Costa Tropcial….’

    The EC has given warnings to the Spanish authorities in this matter.
    The EC has also recently intervened in Illegal Rubbish Tips in Spain (as posted earlier in this thread).

    The EC CAN warn their member states AND intervene when they do not heed its warnings. A powerful submission to the Government via Our Petition, supported also by the ‘Lawyer Complaints Document’ CAN bring this about:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    Remember:
    ‘The European Commission acts as the guardian of the treaties, ensuring that member states respect the treaties and community law, and that they implement adopted legislation’.

    No more Doubting Thomas’s/scare mongers thank you (who I suspect are coming from the same source); either watch from a distance or fight with us.

  • #72666
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The post has just landed on my doormat & I have a long letter from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office, which says in part:

    …….’The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is aware of the property problems in the various regions of Spain. Our Embassy in Madrid and our regional Consulates are lobbying the regional governments and the National Spanish Government in Madrid about planning procedures and legislation on urban development with the aim of providing more certainty over individual property rights in Spain. The European Parliament and the European Commission are well aware of these property problems and the latter is investigating whether Spanish planning procedures comply with EU Contract Directives…….’.

    I hope you all agree that this sounds positive & encouraging. I will be writing back informing them of Our Petition & the Lawyer Complaints document, highlighting the fact that many thousands are affected & that they will, no doubt, be hearing from them also.

    Please also write to:
    Consular Assistance Group
    Foreign & Commonwealth Office
    Old Admiralty Building
    London SW1A 2PA

    Pressure needs to be continually increased

  • #72676
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,I think you have achieved a miracle thus far ,and your point about the EU intervening in member sates is highly relevant ,the recent changing of the Spanish capital gains tax is a recent example of these rulings.

  • #72677
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Gary – many thanks for your positive encouragement.

  • #72681
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,
    Its a postive feeling to read the letter from FCO, atleast they have not fobbed you off by indicating that they cannot get involved in Spanish legal system.

    Perhaps if its worth asking as to at what stage the inquiry is and where it is heading and in what time span. Further to ensure that they are not confusing your cause with the Valencian land grab. The Valencian land grab is at a much advance stage as I am sure that you are aware.

    Please mantain the momentem that you have created.

  • #72682
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, Shakeel & thanks. Will be contacting FCO regularly & promise I won’t give up on this – in fact I’ve only just started ❗
    (Thanks for pm – will reply in the morning as all my mail boxes are full & need to be sorted).

  • #72685
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Shakeel

    although the Valencia Land grab is a specific problem to Valencia the European directive is in fact pertinent to all of Spain – Andalucia for example has a very similar land law passed in 2003 and this also comes under the EU directives. The current situation with Land grab is that Spain is about to be issued a warning and if nothing is done sanctions will be levied against Spain by the EU – which will have a sever economic impact.

    So although it has taken 3 years since the first petitions committee visited Spain to get to this point – it can be achieved. And incidentally the Land abuses on Valencia would have gotten nowhere had it not been for Chuck Svodoba – a Canadian affected by Land abuses in benissa and who did exactly the same as Suzanne has started – a petition, sent to the petitions committee who then have a legal obligation to investigate further – so it is important everyone gets behind this if it is to be effective. (this last comment is not aimed at you Shakeel by the way – just in general)

    There are 20,000 people belong to the AUN – who charge a small annual fee (perhaps you should consider this also Suzanne as an aid to financing your fight – I for one would willingly donate to the cause) and they have moved mountains in recent years – including being able to bypass the usual 10-15 year cycle for bringing cases against human rights to the European courts in Strasbourg – something that has never happened before – but people power made it happen.

    – and now Charles is consulted by the EU on matters relating to the new law (LUV) – so it does work – but if you are expecting things to happen fast then it just wont. But the start made here by Suzanne is impressive, and is certainly a big step in the right direction.

    I owuld offer one more piece of advice (if you havent already done so)

    Get in touch with Charles Svodoba – he has been down this road and ccan pint you in the right direction. He has direct contacts in the EU and can put you in touch with the very people who you need to speak to – rather than going down the channels – go straight to the top.

    If you wish I can call him and make the arrangement for you.

    Best of luck and well done

    Vince

  • #72695
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have PM’d Vince – many thanks.

    If the talk I am hearing is true about a particular agent still using the same lawyers who repeatedly break their own Professional Codes of Conduct & Practice, is repeatedly reported to the Colegio, then this is clearly grounds for a serious complaint against the Agents ALSO. Proof is needed though 💡

    Our Petition is growing every day & is taking more & more time to deal with. Keep it coming & thank you so much for contributing.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #72696
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne – have just been admiring progress so far.
    This thread is only just over 2 weeks old, over 7000 ‘hits’ – and a petition on its own website up-and-running.
    Also letters now starting to bounce around to where it matters (Foreign and Commonwealth Office, MEP’s etc.).

    Just want to say a big ‘well done’ for all achieved in such a short time, and for all the long hours you have put in. It’s really astounding when you think about what you have done.
    I for one appreciate what you are doing which in the long run hopefully will benefit so many others.

    For any newbies to the forum, take a look:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk.

    ……and support if you can!

  • #72698
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you Charlie 🙂 We all need to keep supporting one another.

    Hope to have some more on the ‘Your stories’ page on the website soon. Some of the emails I am getting are truly horrendous experiences & I have to say that if I wasn’t so involved in this (& have my own horror story) I would find them very hard to believe. But we know they are true, & the more people in positions of power who are presented with these Facts – then we will get results.

    The BBC telephoned me (with regard to REAs in Spain – not you good guys!). If my idea to them is accepted it will be Excellent. Will keep you posted ❗

  • #72711
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,I think you may have gotten the Spanish Property industry very concerned, already starting to see the inevitable articles appear on various web sites ,proclaiming that new Developments ,offer good value , no real or major drop in prices, a good time to buy etc, you’ve got them on the ropes,

    Brilliant

  • #72714
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Reply no 5 – this time from Glenis Willmott, Labour MEP, East Midlands. She writes of the complications of the matter and includes copies of two letters, one dated 25 January 2007 written to Geoff Hoon from Gary Titley, leader of Labour MEPs, and the other dated 8 March 2007 which is Geoff Hoon’s reply. Together they make very interesting reading indeed.

    They describe the concerns they have re the problems of British nationals buying property in Spain, and the efforts that have been made and are continuing to be made to deal with them.

    I am scanning these letters (each is 2 sheets of A4) and will be happy to send them as email attachments to anyone who will PM me with their e address. Or, if there is a way to put them on the forum directly I will do that – bearing in mind that I have virtually no computer skills to speak of! So if it’s complicated I won’t attempt it.

    I will reply to Glenis to thank her.

    roots

  • #72761
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    To those who have asked for copies of the letters (see my mailing above):

    I have now requested formal permission to publish them on this forum since there may be a question of breach of confidentiality – not likely but just in case.

    Bear with me and I’ll get them on as soon as poss.

    roots

  • #72773
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Please keep your contributions coming in to:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    It is our right as EU Citizens to insist that the European Commission takes Action – the more who add to Our Petition, and the ‘Lawyer Complaints’ document, the better.

    The European Commission, supported by the European Parliament, has the power to take Spain to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) if our fundamental rights continue to be disrespected and abused.

  • #72774
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Please keep your contributions coming in to:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    It is our right as EU Citizens to insist that the European Commission takes Action – the more who add to Our Petition, and the ‘Lawyer Complaints’ document, the better.

    The European Commission, supported by the European Parliament, has the power to take Spain to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) if our fundamental rights continue to be disrespected and abused.

  • #72775
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,This Is precisely the route that the LARU group are taking ,and are finally achieving results ,the threat of European court rulings has begun to hit home ,it is an unusual step to take against member EU States particularly when you include Human rights abuses, as part of the action but it is effective.

  • #72776
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Gary,

    I have written to Michael Cashman & hope to hear from him. If all our forces are combined, the ECJ will be facing a mighty army indeed ❗

  • #72831
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks to Vince, Our Petition is detailed on the FRONT PAGE of:
    http://www.inlandtrader.net/edition3/InlandTrader81.pdf
    (please be patient while it downloads!!)

    Unfortunately the paper has made a mistake with the website, but hopefully people will be able to understand what the correct address is, & this should be rectified in the next issue.

    Contributions are coming in every day to Our Petition, which has only been up & running for 3 weeks now. I hope that there will be some more distribution of leaflets over the weekend.

  • #72844
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Reply No 6: from Usman Choudhry on behalf of the Governor of the Bank of England. His letter, after the usual commiserations, says:

    “…the Central Bank of the United Kingdom [is] unable to intervene in disputes or arbitrate between customers and clients of banks in the UK or abroad. I would therefore suggest that you write to the Bank of Spain (Banco de Espania (sic)) direct about this matter. Their address and contact details are:

    Banco de Espana
    Apartado de Correos 15
    E-28080 Madrid
    Spain

    Tel: 00 34 91 3385000
    Fax: 00 34 91 5310059
    website: http://www.bde.es

    So I will again write my letter of complaint to the BoS re my bank guarantee not being honoured by Banco Popular, in spite of a judge ordering them to pay up. The bank’s subsequent appeal and the court’s postponements of hearings has meant an 11 month delay in my receiving the deposit, interest and costs – that is if it is not postponed again. In the meantime the court is holding a considerable amount of money as there are 5 sets of clients involved in this particular case.

    If anyone is in the same situation as us and would join us in writing then it would lend support. Also If anyone has experience, positive or negative, with the BoS I would be interested to hear.

    roots

  • #72846
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Roots, there is also Ausbanc which is a consumer association for the banking industry in Spain. Don’t know how effective they are but they sound good when interviewed on local radio.

  • #72847
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    The petition over lawyers´independency and avoidance of conflict of interests. Not to be forgotten: stronger and more clear measures to be imposed on Bar Associations in order to develop a more efficient control over the fulfillment of these very essential ethical obligations of our proffession.

    The claim is not difficult, those principles are already clearly stated in National and Provintial Ethics Codes for Lawyers, just the implementation/control is unsufficient by now.

  • #72848
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Roots – Well done with all your letter-writing! It is interesting (as well as rewarding) that even when there is a disappointing reply – none of your letters are being ignored.
    A sign of the times regarding this ‘hot’ subject??

    May I make a suggestion? I feel it is also worth sending your letter to the El Defensor del Pueblo – the Spanish Ombudsman.

    The head chap there is: ENRIQUE MÚGICA HERZOG. It is interesting to note he was Minister of Justice from 1988-1991 – so should be very knowledgable about what and what not should be happening in court…..as in our case, with the bank wasting our (and the court’s time) in appealing against paying on a Bank Guarantee when nothing has been built for three years!

    “The mission of the Ombudsman is to protect and defend basic rights and public freedom on behalf of citizens”.
    see the website in English: http://www.defensordelpueblo.es/web_ingles/Index.asp

    El Defensor del Pueblo is apparently very powerful, and no bank would like to be investigated by them. I feel it is worth a letter. Perhaps this letter could be signed by all five of you?

    As Claire and ourselves experienced the exact same appeal-time-wasting tactics by the same bank, we could also write a letter telling of our experience to add weight to yours.
    That hopefully should start a few feathers flying. 😉
    What do you think?

    Personally I fear that, as with the Central Bank of the United Kingdom which is “unable to intervene in disputes or arbitrate between customers and clients of banks in the UK…”, it will be the same situation with the Bank of Spain unable to intervene with the Spanish banks.
    That is of course, only IMO.

  • #72850
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Katy

    Thanks for the reference to Ausbanc. I’ve Googled it but can’t see a contact address for them. Can you tell me a bit more about them please?

    Hi Charlie

    Thanks for your reference too.
    Yes, I have written to El Defensor del Pueblo and received a prompt reply of acknowledgement from him. He has promised to look into the matters I raised and will respond more fully later. I would be very grateful for your support as the more letters that are received the more notice may be taken. When I wrote to this man after checking the website I felt that of all the people/organisations to whom I had written this gave me the most optimism. Hope those will not be my famous last words!

    Hi everyone
    I’m feeling very frustrated as I wait for permission to publish the 2 UK government letters I received at the beginning of last week. If I don’t hear anything tomorrow I will put the bare bones of the letters on the Forum. But ideally they need to be read in their entirety.

    Another week, another step forward … ? Of course. Onwards and upwards!

    roots

  • #72851
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Ausbanc
    (Asociacion de Usuarios de Servicios Bancarios. En defensa de usuarios y consumidore)
    http://www.ausbanc.com

    Altamirano 33, 28008 Madrid.
    Tel. 91 541 07 57 Fax 91 541 72 60
    Information, consultations and subscriptions
    Tel. 91 541 61 61
    e-mail: ausbanc@ausbanc.com

  • #72853
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Thanks Charlie, saved me some time 🙂

  • #72854
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    As Maria said above:
    ‘The petition over lawyers´independency and avoidance of conflict of interests….’

    I strongly believe that the Corrupt Lawyers are at the cornerstone of the Property Scandal, including the on-going court problems with BGs. These are the lawyers that the corrupt developers/agents have Used & Employed to hide behind & perpetuate their disgrace.

    Of course it is good for personal support also to be given on this Forum, but it is a great shame when this does not include being part of Our Petition which aims to target the root of the corruption, and thereby help everyone who is fighting for justice.

  • #72855
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A question for mariadecastro (or anyone who may know) – have been looking at the Ausbanc website and see that they have taken several banks to court. They seem therefore a good body to approach but do not understand what exactly is Ausbanc’s role.

    Are they a consumers’ association for the protection of rights against banks? The banks’ ombudsman? Or how would you define them?

    Many thanks.

  • #72860
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,Just read the article that Vince managed to get published in Inland trader ,this type of publicity will be highly beneficial to the cause as this is the start of getting the message out into the wider domain beyond the forum for example,

    I found the article to be well written and concise and covered all the main points,so well done to you and Vince ,from little acorns….,however on this occasion I think you planted more of a small tree,!!

  • #72862
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for acknowledging the article Gary; think this is a great achievement of Vince’s. It’s a fortnightly paper, & the story will be followed up in two weeks’ time.

    Just today we have received 8 more ‘signatures’ to Our Petition, and details added to the Lawyer Complaints document which will be presented to the relevant Bar Associations etc in time. The Authorities will have to take notice & take Action. With Maria supporting this move also, we cannot fail to make a change for the better.

  • #72870
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    charlie:

    AUSBANC is an association of users of financial services. A sort of Consumers Association, specialised on the monitoring of the activities of bank and other finnancial institutions.

  • #72871
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you Maria.
    Would you say they are a tiger with ‘teeth’ or are they more of a paper tiger, like the Colegio de Abogados?
    I ask because we, and some others from our development, are considering contacting them about our bank’s behaviour in not honouring Bank Guarantees when there has been a clear breach of contract (no legal documents in place, property years overdue, etc.).
    They are obliging holders of these guarantees to take them to court – then when the judge rules they must pay, they simply automatically appeal despite not having anything to appeal about. You know the stories.
    They even appealed against the judge’s decision in our case when nothing had been built at all, which is ridiculous, and totally goes against the spirit of the law ‘ley57/68’ in our opinion.

    We want to target our complaints at the right people (wish I could knock on the door of the Minister of Justice…!), and therefore ask if in your opinion, sending a complaint to Ausbanc is worthwhile.

  • #72888
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Received a very long and interesting contribution today to Our Petition from someone in Spain who is affected by the corruption and is also in contact with many people in a similar situation, but some of them are elderly folk & either do not have access to the Web/do not want to have access, but they do want to make their voices heard on the Petition. She’s very eager to distribute the leaflets I will download, but I wonder if anyone has any bright ideas for people who can’t access a computer ❓

    I suppose if they can’t get someone else to do it for them, a form to fill in & post to me is the only answer ❓ Any ideas please ❓ Many thanks.

    Or get someone to fax it, of course, just thought of that one 🙄

  • #72896
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    What happened to good old traditional snail mail??

  • #72960
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have added a page to SPSP re: websites: the ‘highly respected & valued Spanish Property Insight & Forum’.

  • #72974
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, Cream always floats to the top, remember Gold Top Milk !!

  • #72977
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes I do Gary, & the milkman who delivered it 😆

    Busy printing leaflets tonight, & I shall be cheering up the commuters in the rain tomorrow. They are printed on pink paper & blue paper. Wasn’t sure about the colours, so I checked with some chaps & asked them if they would mind having a pink leaflet thrust in their faces at the station – but they all said they would be delighted. They need to stand out & be noticeable – the leaflets that is ❗

  • #72979
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, your milkman, was his name Ernie by any chance??

    Great news on the leaflets this is exactly how to start and get the story out there ,I would definitely take a leaflet of you regardless of its colour ! ,d’ont bring the Station to a halt though !, best of luck.

  • #72980
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
  • #72981
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Absolutely! With SPSP t-shirts.

  • #72990
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I handed out 250 leaflets this morning to commuters. Hopefully there will be some response over the weekend.

  • #72993
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Well done 🙂 Aside from the developers of course, I do think the fault also lies with the Brit agents who hold property shows and inspection trips. Many of them don’t even seem to have an office in Spain.

  • #72995
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree Katy, & the more people we can reach in England via leaflets, articles, media exposure the more will be alerted to the widespread crooks & dodgy agents.

    But I really believe that the corrupt lawyers are at the crux of the problem. Eg: So many people have not been given Bank Guarantees for their purchase & when they find out that it’s their Lawful Right to have one & ask their lawyer why they do not have a BG, they are often told “because you didn’t pay for it” etc. Instead of these lawyers alerting their clients to abusive clauses in their Contracts, they allow them to sign without warning.

    Dodgy Developers without Crooked Lawyers is like fish without chips; where most people would walk away, go elsewhere and get the Real Thing. The ‘Lawyer Complaints’ document continues to grow & I’m working hard to make sure this is presented to the relevant authorities. Instead of having individual complaints sent to the Colegio which seem to be continually filed in the rubbish bin, their superiors will have documented factual evidence which they will not be allowed to ignore.

  • #72996
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If the gentleman who emailed me today re: AIFOS could please send me a PM if you are on HERE??? I have your name but obviously would not put it here. Thank you.

    Your email will not receive my reply 😕 😕 🙁

  • #73000
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    So sorry 😳 How could I have missed out the lawyers. the person paid a lot of money to smooth the way when purchasing 🙄

  • #73001
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Knew you hadn’t forgotten them Katy ❗

    I’m convinced that as soon as the legal governing bodies take action & address the many valid complaints of breaches of professional codes & conduct, this will in turn have a huge effect on crooked developers/REAs. They will (eventually) run very low on lawyers they can hide behind & blame.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #73014
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,A friend of mine who is an international planning consultant come over the other day,during the day she happened to mention that she has been in contact with a counterpart in Spain who is an adviser to the Spanish Government ,unprompted she recounted that there are proposals to demolish one and two bedroomed apartment blocks in area’s of substantial over supply,especially in area’s which have seen planning abuses.

    Obviously I had to say that I have contact with people who own property in Spain ,where upon she had to invoke professional discretion ,and the topic moved on ,however my friend and her Madrid contact are shortly to embark on the pilgrims route ,I think its the Santiago de Composta or similar ,so I will know more soon .My limited understanding is that these are only proposals at this stage but do in fact indicate that the Madrid Government is seriously considering all the options when dealing with the issue of particular oversupply in the market,

  • #73015
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Gary, I have to admit that as soon as I see your initials I think “It’s Gordon – he’s joined the Forum!”. Now I really am thinking…..

    Will be very interesting to hear further about this. The developments which are so grossly over-built are also causing many problems for the people who have completed on illegal builds, with regards to the ‘Community Charges’. I know of one development in particular that has many vacant illegal apartments, & the CCs for these properties are being passed on to those who have completed. It is my understanding that the developers should be paying these charges, and at a recent meeting of owners there was a literal punch-up over this one point. Another example of the variegated wildlife of Spain ❗

  • #73019
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,It seems that the authorities are acutely aware of the over supply issue , and have realized that a continued surplus of one and two bedroomed apartments in particular locations ,will have a negative effect for some considerable time,

    I have sent another email to my friends contact in Madrid,asking how these proposals could be implemented ,as she seems happy to discuss the matter,I will let you know.

  • #73022
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Demolitions won’t happen, would be happy to see it though. 🙂

  • #73033
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ….would be happy to see it though.

    So all those people who are trapped lose their money or their home?

    Good for you Katy

  • #73034
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Of course not ❗ with proper compensation from the Junta who would hopefully get it from the developer. Demolitions are the only way forward to stamp out corruption and overdevelopment.

  • #73035
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ….with proper compensation from the Junta who would hopefully get it from the developer.

    Which developers, the bankrupt ones?

    Demolitions are the only way forward to stamp out corruption and overdevelopment

    Right, of course!

    Stop digging

  • #73037
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    p800aul,

    Atleast you live in the real world. Even if the developers are not bankrupt they will voluntary become one or the amount of compensation awarded against them will force them into bankruptcy.

    This also means that projects that are legal will also not be completed either.

    The Council has to carry out a damage limiting exercise, financial or otherwise.

  • #73042
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have finally managed to understand what Fredes from Madrid has been trying to explain to me,basically demolitions are being considered as a last resort ,obviously compensation would be offered to those affected,there is a clear understanding ,that partially occupied apartment blocks will have have a drag effect on the property market for some time .For the authorities this is a difficult area because Governments do not usually intervene directly in commercial situations such as this, however as Suzanne has explained we are already seeing the consequences of the over building, and how this is begining to manifesting itself in real terms

    The two principle objectives would be 1) To deter illegal building 2) To ensure that sustainable building is to be the blue print for all future construction projects

    The sustainability proposals are the ones that make the most interesting reading ,in that from next year measures such as solar heating ,and water recycling will begin to have a substantial impact on the the types of building that will be permitted. The sections regarding water consumption and catchment offer up rather grim reading ,in that the environment may in fact decide the fate of many of these blocks due to water supply issues and the inherent lack of planning that has allowed this situation to occur in the first instance

  • #73043
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have finally managed to understand what Fredes from Madrid has been trying to explain to me,basically demolitions are being considered as a last resort ,obviously compensation would be offered to those affected,there is a clear understanding ,that partially occupied apartment blocks will have have a drag effect on the property market for some time .For the authorities this is a difficult area because Governments do not usually intervene directly in commercial situations such as this, however as Suzanne has explained we are already seeing the consequences of the over building, and how this is beginning to manifesting itself in real terms

    The two principle objectives would be 1) To deter illegal building 2) To ensure that sustainable building is to be the blue print for all future construction projects

    The sustainability proposals are the ones that make the most interesting reading ,in that from next year measures such as solar heating ,and water recycling will begin to have a substantial impact on the the types of building that will be permitted. The sections regarding water consumption and catchment offer up rather grim reading ,in that the environment may in fact decide the fate of many of these blocks due to water supply issues and the inherent lack of planning that has allowed this situation to occur in the first instance

  • #73046
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    There’s a group in marbella campaigning for demolition as their properties have been blighted by developments in front of them and at the side and I can understand their point of view. They bought as they say in good faith and checked the Town plan, the land in front was green belt, also to the side they could probably shake hands with the neighbours in the new development, most of the residents seem to be spanish. I understand their point of view as even if the developer is fined they are still left with the carbuncles around them.

    So I say demolish all of them and the junta pay compensation (after all they ignored what was going on in marbella (and other towns) for many years. the Junta can then try to claim the cost back from the developers as they have more clout. Did hear today that AIFOS have been fined more than 11 million euros for the Guadalpin hotel in marbella but haven’t had time to check it out.

  • #73057
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I would just like to say that regarding getting compensation from the developers or the Junta I think it would be very difficult to do so.
    I am finding it difficult in getting back money I paid to the council for tax on a property I did not even complete on so imagine how difficult it would be to get large ammounts refunded.
    Also the process of developers not paying community charges for properties thy have not sold should not be allowed…developers should pay the community fees. actually this evening I was looking at notes from a meeting that was held last year concerning just that issue…developers not paying c.c and it was an Aifos development in question.

  • #73059
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just to let you know that there is light at the end of the tunnell after all
    to follow up on my previous post where I stated I have been having difficulty getting my tax returned from the council….
    I would just like to say that just a few moments ago I discovered that the council Has paid us back the tax….so at least that is a positive result!!
    I am delighted!! 😀

  • #73062
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Bettyboo – very happy to hear your good news. You’ve been more than patient.

    Re: Demolitions
    AVE or Banana Beach is the choice the town may have to face sometime in the near future, according to the Public Works Department. The situation is not helped by the plans to extend the fishing port with 2,500 new moorings and a quay for cruise ships, which also affect Banana Beach.
    This will be the biggest station on the whole line; there will be four tracks, two 400 metre side platforms for the AVE trains and a 200 metre central platform for the local trains.’
    (Sur Quote)

  • #73063
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    People who have completed on their apartments & have the Habitation Licence are still having problems when the rest of the development has not been finished. In one case I know of, the developer has gone bankrupt & disappeared. The utilities have not been connected, no promised gardens, security etc etc. Massive power surges have caused endless problems & burnt out major electrical goods in the apartment causing thousands of Euros worth of damage. Although they had insurance & a habitation licence, the insurance company would not pay as they were not on mains electricity.

    The stresses & real life problems that all these unscrupulous developers & their aides are piling onto people in day-to-day living is deplorable. On top of people suing for their money back, I’m sure that we will be hearing more about personal injury claims.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #73071
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Had an email today saying the SPSP website is a waste of time & that Our Petition will be of no use. I was also told to devote my time to more worthwhile causes ❗ I seem to have gathered quite a few enemies in the last 2 weeks, and this is clearly very encouraging news 😀

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #73072
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne ,When people start to play the the man (as it were) not the ball,then you know you are having a pronounced effect , they cannot win the argument their only option is to try and rubbish what you are doing, perverse I know but I would take this as a huge compliment

  • #73073
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Seems as if you are rattling a few cages then Suzanne…well done 8)

  • #73074
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    Suzanne: ongratulations on the enemies!
    Please keep me posted of any help you may need.
    Best,
    M.

  • #73075
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you Comrades ❗
    Maria – we will talk soon about when to start to confront the Bar Associations etc with the ‘Lawyer Complaints’ document.

    Hope to hear soon from those who have offered to help with the leaflets.

  • #73082
    Profile photo of mariadecastro
    mariadecastro
    Participant

    OK, Please do.
    M.

  • #73092
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I distributed some more leaflets today at Hampstead Station & the Royal Free Hospital – am taking them wherever I go ❗ Now thinking of investing in a bright pink t-shirt with

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    boldly printed front & back ❗
    Would be very grateful for any who feel able to join me in this (you don’t have to wear the t-shirt ❗ )

  • #73093
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ‘…violation of human rights under the European Convention…’

    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/a … 1099.shtml

  • #73106
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just got home to an email from Michael Cashman, which says in part:
    ‘…..I’m glad to hear of your actions and wish you luck in your endeavours. I will pass your email onto the Petitions committee secretariat for information…’

    I’m delighted to receive this; MC must be one of the busiest & most committed men in the EU and has taken the time to reply. Excellent news & must give us even more incentive to take ACTION!!!

  • #73139
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done Suzanne!

    Great news about the letter from MC. The more people that we can let know about our situations the better!

  • #73145
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I must admit, forums like this give me some hope that we will get a result to our depressing property problem. We bought a property just outside of Albox, Almeria in July 2005 but did not buy through a big developer in order to minimise the risk of buying an illegal property.
    Small developers seem to be just as problematic. We did not find out that ours was illegal until recently and even then it is not totally legal. The Catastral office considers it legal (as if their records are sacrosanct and not corruptible) while locally our house is built on rural land and considered illegal although we are paying local land tax! Bizarre. Our neighbour, the small developer, did not get building permissions or licenses but our “local” lawyer did not advise us of this. He said everything was perfect and believe me we asked him repeatedly to check and double check everything was legal.
    To complicate matters we have a Spanish mortgage on the property which we are still paying for eventhough we have returned to the UK. Why return? My children were being bullied and because our neighbour was trying to extort money from us for a made up electricity connection charge (had already been connected a year and it was never mentioned before) but this was not going to get us a contract with the electricity company. We now know we will never get one while the land is classified as rural and has not permissions or licenses. Our neighbours say they have a private transformer and agreement with the electricity company but we cannot get the latter to confirm this or investigate. Our neighbours refused to give us proof that they were paying for the electricity but merely wrote the amount on a scrap of paper and said pay this or we cut off your electricity. Which they did 😥 , despite being neighbours with us for over a year, having socialised with them; laughed; cried; learnt the language with; etc. The wife offered to help out with my children who have multiple allergies, eczema and asthma while my husband was working away; they played with her children. We never believed this was going to happen to us, not in a million years. Naive…yes, trusting…yes, stupid…may be, but not usually.
    Well done for fighting for justice and fairness – not many people like to. This forum has given me more ideas about who else to write to. Keep up the good work.

  • #73147
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Fran,

    Please don’t let anyone get away with calling you ‘naive’ or ‘stupid’ for the situation you are now in. It is your lawyer who has obviously been dishonourable & dishonest, & it is perfectly legitimate that you have trusted him to do the job he has been paid to do.

    I’ve received 18 submissions to Our Petition in the last 24 hours, and am trying to answer them all personally as soon as I can. So, if you are one of these, you will receive a reply before the end of the day. Please be assured that there are many people who will support you in your fight for justice, and that by adding your voice to Our Petition this is speeding up the time until we can present Facts to the British Government & Minister for Europe. A Lawyer Complaints document is also being compiled in support of this, and will go to the Spanish Authorities, probably finally to the European Court of Justice if necessary.

    In the meantime, please take some time out to write to Geoff Hoon, Minister for Europe. We are not going to be ignored, brushed aside or have our Rights abused for much longer. Please keep in touch with the Forum, you will find support & understanding here, & also some excellent legal advice that you can trust.

  • #73156
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Suzanne,

    Yes I am one of those 18 and yes I will send an email to Geoff Hoon. Thanks for the pep talk.

    Fran

  • #73188
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have received an email from the President of the AUAN. He will be posting details of SPSP on their websites & also including it in their newspaper submissions. I am sure this will boost Our Petition greatly & speed up the time until it is weighty enough to be presented to No 10.

    I am also up-dating the website with other links asap, and also a new page detailing some of the letters that SPSP has sent to appropriate bodies, together with their response. Hopefully, this will encourage others, and they will see that Action is continually being taken.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #73190
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done Suzanne! I know it must take up a huge amount of your time to keep the momentum going. It will be worth it in the end. 🙂

  • #73192
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Claire. It’s taking between 2 to 3 hours a day now to keep organised & reply to everyone – on top of doing a secular job. Everyday the stories get more distressing and almost unbelievable – but we know they are true. Counter-suing is the latest in the saga that is now adding more burdens to people who are already extremely stressed.

    These corrupt developers are piling more shame onto themselves everyday.

  • #73195
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Spain referred to European Court over Valencia Land Law
    Jun 27, 2007

    The European Commission considers that it contravenes European legislation.

    The European Commission has referred Spain to the European Court of Justice over the Valencia Land Law, the LUV.

    The Commission says that while the LUV has streamlined the procedures included in its predecessor, the LRAU, it considers that certain aspects of the new law, which came into force on 1st February 2006, still contravene EU legislation on contracting for public works.

    The European Commission holds the view that the Integrated Action Programmes (PAI) for public infrastructure work carried out by property developers are in fact public works contracts and, as such, should be governed by EU legislation.

    © Copyright 2007 by typicallyspanish.com

  • #73198
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    On another thread:

    @Suzanne wrote:

    Have just received an email saying I may be contacted by a “respected Journalist” in Spain re SPSP. He is known by others who are involved in this fight for justice & is well spoken of. As & when I hear from him I will make it a point to highlight this disgrace of counter-suing on illegal properties.

    Will keep you all fully informed 8)

    This is brilliant news, Suzanne. Any exposure from the Spanish press with regards to the petition and these injustices can only be good. Hopefully this journalist is prepared to open the proverbial can of worms, and other journalists/publications will follow.

    Counter-suing on illegal builds is a disgrace, as is allowing automatic appeals when a judge has already ruled on a clear breach of contract as per the law – for example in a no-build-at-all situation! Also allowing court cases to be delayed for half a year or more just because a witness ‘can’t be located’ by the developer’s lawyer, and allowing the so-called ‘argument’ that purchasers should complete (regardless of no legal b/l or LFO incidentally) because they are ‘only investers/not consumers’ etc.
    These are all ridiculous and shameful delay-tactics to avoid returning purchasers’ monies and is happening more and more frequently – it’s almost like some of these developers’ lawyers got together over dinner one night and cooked them all up.
    It’s also time the Colegio de Abogados started acting like one, and that REA’s are regulated.

    If this journalist could get the ball rolling with the Spanish press, a great stride will have been taken to help put pressure for change and hopefully for justice to be served in the courts.

    How great it would be if the Spanish started signing up to the SPSP as a result of an article.
    Maybe you’ll have to create another one Suzanne…… in Spanish. 😯 😀

  • #73199
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    charlie

    good post, i really feel things are starting to be heard by the right people. If the issues you mention can be sorted, it would be a massive leep forward for everyone and Spain itself.

    Suzanne

    another huge ‘well done’ to you for all your hard work, you are doing so well with this. I can’t tell you how much this means to my family, and i think everyone who is living the nightmare of trying to recover all their savings, after years of being swindled by agent/lawyer/developer. I’m trying to get support for the petition from other sites and people i talk to swell the numbers and keep the pressure on.

  • #73200
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    How great it would be if the Spanish started signing up to the SPSP as a result of an article.
    Maybe you’ll have to create another one Suzanne…… in Spanish. 😯 😀

    What a fabulous idea charlie ❗ I need one of those little buttons saying ‘Spanish’ on the website that miraculously translates. Will add this to my list of ‘To Dos’ & find out how one goes about it. If anyone on here knows more about how to do this, would love to hear.

    I hear that German people are having a particularly difficult time on Costa Calida with their properties. Maybe I should get a ‘German’ button too 💡

    Thanks Goodstich for your support and Action – couldn’t have got very far at all without this from so many people. It seems we’re in a Marathon here, but so long as the pace is kept up Truth & Justice will Champion.

  • #73201
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, I will refer to the higher authority with respect to the German angle,as she is German and has mentioned on several occasions that there are also issues with German purchasers in the south, although perhaps not quite at the same numbers as British purchasers,it might still be worthwhile seeking out a comparable German Forum,will report back,once senior management has carried out the requisite research

  • #73202
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Suzanne wrote:

    I need one of those little buttons saying ‘Spanish’ on the website that miraculously translates. Will add this to my list of ‘To Dos’ & find out how one goes about it. If anyone on here knows more about how to do this, would love to hear.

    Possibly you could take up Maria de Castro’s offer of help to get a translation made? There are so many of us who have either already been through the courts or have cases pending and writing as one who fits both categories at the moment, I for one would be more than happy to make a contribution to any translation/website costs.

    I am thinking of a petition that purely targets legal matters – injustices that are happening in some Spanish courts and the corrupt behaviour of some lawyers.
    For example, as well as questionable decisions being made by some judges, I find it a nonsense that developers, who have not issued Bank Guarantees as required by law, have the nerve to nevertheless sue a purchaser for not completing on an illegal build.
    Has anyone successfully sued a developer for refusing to issue a Bank Guarantee? Not issuing one is supposed to be a criminal offence!
    And why is it, when the court does find for the ‘victim’, somes judges are only ordering return of monies but without legal interest or lawyer costs? All this has to be wrong.
    Obviously a Spanish petition would need to be targeted purely at the Spanish ‘powers that be’ as against submitted to any UK bodies, but it could certainly join any EU submissions of the main SPSP.

    How many of us have moaned about the Spanish legal system – or say ‘the law is there, but hey – this is Spain’?
    Why is it the Bank Guarantee document is allowed to be re-written in such a way that it ends up going against the spirit of the BG law?

    And of course there is the Purchase Contract – full of illegal clauses biased towards the developer which corrupt lawyers allow many of us to sign. A property is only supposed to be legally habitable and ready for completion when the LFO has been issued. But if you sign a contract that states completion is when the Architect issues his End of Works certificate (which means nothing really except that he has finished the build), then complete you must – even without an LFO. Nevermind maybe the electrics have been installed in an illegal and dangerous manner that a LFO inspection would have picked up on. I know for example in the La Reserva development they are already suffering burst water pipes, and to quote the repair man – the cause is by shoddy workmanship in the first place. These practices must be stopped – and would go a long way in cleaning up the the disasterous current state of Spain’s property market.
    The possibility of this journalist writing an article could be a great ‘open door’ to get the Spanish public involved because they are also affected by these types of corrupt behaviour.

    Am happy to help liase with Maria over this Suzanne as I know you have your hands very full. Alternatively, am happy to help in any other way I can.
    Proper and firm justice in the courts needs to be seen now for all those caught up in the current scandal, as is honest and ethical behaviour from our lawyers, and am afraid this is certainly not happening at the moment in all cases. Being told by a lawyer that taking a horrendous corrupt situation to court ‘is just not worth it’ is not good enough in my view and is indicative of the change that needs to happen.

  • #73210
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    At last I’ve received full permission to publish the correspondence between Gary Titley, Leader of the Labour MEPs, and Geoff Hoon. I will send copies of the letters to those who originally asked for them. And if anyone else would like copies just let me know by PM.

    Also, this morning I received from Glenis Willmott’s office the Report on the Fact-finding visit to Madrid, Valencia, Andalucia made earlier in the year by Marcin Libicki and Michael Cashman. The letters and the Report are now a bit ‘old news’, Mark’s contribution to the thread on SPI [MEP’s back infrastructure victims] having superseded them. But I think they’re worth reading. They show the workings of these people, exactly what their concerns are, what issues are being tackled, etc. Personally, Ive gained reassurance from these documents. There are people who are prepared to work on our behalf.

    As I can’t attach the Report to this reply I can be PM’d and I will email it as an attachment to your private email address. The document is 24 pages long and includes a 4 page list of petitions received during the Fact-finding visit. Although it’s a Government Report it is readable!

    Finally, I did receive a reply from my own MP (Conservative) – a very sympathetic one – but one which said that he was powerless to take any action especially as I had contacted my MEPs already. I have heard absolutely nothing from my 2 Conservative MEPs and I am still awaiting a further reply from El Defensor del Pueblo (Spanish Ombudsman).

    roots

  • #73225
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    I am thinking of a petition that purely targets legal matters – injustices that are happening in some Spanish courts and the corrupt behaviour of some lawyers.

    Charlie – there is a ‘Lawyer Complaints Document’ being complied as part of Our Petition, which is doing exactly what you state. This Document grows daily & contains names & details of those lawyers who have breached their own professional Codes of Conduct & Practice. It will not be presented to the Colegio de Abogados, as they obviously have no interest in cleaning up the shameful Acts of their members, but will be presented at far higher levels.

  • #73232
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne/Jules B
    I have had a reply from my solicitor regarding Jules B/Suzannes, mine and some other problems regarding the developers suing purchasers.
    As you know I am down there next week and can have a sit down with the solicitor who is directly involved with properties in and around Marbella everyday.
    She is looking to carify but at the moment she cant see how a case like this would ever stand up in court.

    Regards
    Jim. 😀

  • #73233
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Jim – Look forward to any news you can bring back to us next week. Your being there will certainly help to clarify some issues & answer lots of questions we have – particularly about La Reserva. Don’t forget some pictures ❗

  • #73234
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Melosine – Your post on another website has brought in a lot of ‘signatures’ to Our Petition, particularly from Almanzora C.C. where there are huge problems affecting a great deal of people.

  • #73240
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Suzanne wrote:

    I need one of those little buttons saying ‘Spanish’ on the website that miraculously translates. Will add this to my list of ‘To Dos’ & find out how one goes about it. If anyone on here knows more about how to do this, would love to hear.

    This may be worth a look: http://www.altavista.com/help/free/free_searchbox_transl

  • #73245
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you MrBen, this looks good. Will let you know how I get on with it 🙂

  • #73246
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Suzanne wrote:

    Thank you MrBen, this looks good. Will let you know how I get on with it 🙂

    Yes please do.

    Google do something similar but I think that’s a case of copying & pasting the piece of text you want translated into a box. Not ideal for a whole website. (I may be wrong in this!) Also bare in mind the translations won’t always be perfect although they’re usually good enough to get the general “jist” of what the text is about.

    I’d guess if there are complex legal issues you need to explain than you would be better off (i.e safer) getting a good translator to do the work for you?

    I’ll have a further rummage around and see what else I can unearth.

  • #73247
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve tried the ‘cut & paste’ thingy but it doesn’t seem to work. Am sure I’m not doing it properly – this is all quite new to me I’m afraid 🙄

    I’ve had the same trouble getting the site onto ‘google search’ (‘cutting & pasting’ thingy again), although they say it can take some time ❓
    Thanks for your help MrBen.

  • #73250
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Here’s a couple more that may be of use.
    http://www.freetranslation.com/
    http://thebecketts.com/Espana7/GoogleTranslator.htm

    (Ctrl C = copy on a pc, Ctrl V = paste, apologies if you already knew)

    I’ve just tried the GoogleTranslator on this web page and it appears to work nicely (I don’t speak Spanish though)

    Copy this link: (without the ” ‘ “) ‘www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2305&start=240’
    (which is this particular page but without the ‘http://’ part in front of the link)

    and then paste it into the “translate a webpage box” immediately after the ‘http://’ bit you see in the box on this website: http://thebecketts.com/Espana7/GoogleTranslator.htm

    The whole link should appear like this: ‘http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2305&start=240’

    You should then see this whole page appear but in Spanish when you press “Translate”

    Don’t forget to first select “English to Spanish” (!)

    You could do the same for each of the pages on your website you’d like translated, saving each page to your computer as you do the translation.

    There’s probably better (easier) ways to do this, I’ll keep looking.

  • #73251
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Translation: (of just my posting, this will do the whole page without problems)

    Aquí está un par más que puede estar de uso.
    http://www.freetranslation.com/
    http://thebecketts.com/Espana7/GoogleTranslator.htm

    (Ctrl C = copia en una PC, Ctrl V = goma, apologías si sabías ya)

    Acabo de intentar el GoogleTranslator en este Web page y aparece trabajar agradable (no hablo español sin embargo)

    Copy este acoplamiento: (sin “’”) ‘www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2305&start=240’
    (que es esta página particular pero sin la ‘pieza de http://‘ delante del acoplamiento)

    y entonces pegarlo en “traducen una caja del Web page” inmediatamente después que ‘http://’ te mordió ve en la caja en este Web site: http://thebecketts.com/Espana7/GoogleTranslator.htm

    El acoplamiento entero debe aparecer como esto: ‘http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2305&start=240’

    Debes entonces ver esta página entera aparecer pero en español cuando presionas “traducir”

    El no se olvida a “inglés-español primero selecto” (!)

    Podrías hacer igual para cada uno de las páginas en tu Web site que quisieras traducido, ahorrando cada página a tu computadora como haces la traducción.

    Hay probablemente maneras (más fáciles) mejores de hacer esto, yo guardará el mirar.
    _________________
    Nunca discutir con un idiota, te arrastrarán para tragar a su nivel y para batirte con experiencia.

  • #73253
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Gracias MrBen, yo están consiguiendo allí lentamente pero seguramente. Conseguirá de nuevo a ti otra vez un pedacito más adelante. 😯 😆

  • #73255
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Thx Suzanne. Anything to assist.

  • #73256
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Suzanne wrote:

    Gracias MrBen, yo están consiguiendo allí lentamente pero seguramente. Conseguirá de nuevo a ti otra vez un pedacito más adelante. 😯 😆

    – and back from Spanish to English –

    Gracias MrBen, I is obtaining there slowly but surely. It will again obtain you a small piece advanced more again. 😆

    ¡Mi placer Suzanne, estoy alegre que podría ayudar! 🙂

  • #73257
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    😆 😆 Some of this belongs on the jokes thread 😆 😆
    Will try & get it sorted by tonight. Gracias.

  • #73285
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Points of information:

    We now have a new Minister for Europe – Jim Murphy. You can read a profile of him at:

    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour/story/0,,2114912,00.html

    Gary Titley, Leader of Labour MEPs, website is:

    http://www.garytitley.com

    roots

  • #73286
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Looking at Jim Murphy’s website/activities, he certainly seems a do’er which is encouraging.

    Also encouraging is the fact he makes a point of being very contactable, in seven different ways in fact.
    http://www.jimmurphy.labour.co.uk/ViewPage.cfm?Page=8412

  • #73303
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,

    Just to let you know that today I have sent off an email to the new Minister of Europe, Jim Murphy.
    I dont know if there is any overlap between him and Geoff Hoon or if he has just got thrown in at the deep end. I did mention the SPSP and your lawyer document.
    I will keep you posted as to his reply. Fingers crossed!

    Keep up the good work. Anything else I can do to help, just let me know.

    Fran

  • #73304
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    Understand that you have a leaflet to give out.
    As I am in Spain next week,if there is anyway I can obtain the format to copy I am happy to give out a several hundred out.
    At least until I get mugged by an estate agent that is 👿
    Keep up the great work gal

    Regards
    Jim 😀

  • #73305
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, I have had returned the first round of responses in respect of German nationals who may have run into Spanish property problems and to date ,there does not appear to be any major difficulties reported, I have a few more sites to check on but but It seems that due to a number of factors that German buyers have largely avoided the difficulties that British purchasers now find themselves in.

    This could be due to the large scale sell off that German buyers completed a few years ago as a result of their countries Tax changes, and also in the main they tended to settle in established area’s , and not in the new build area’s, however I will report back once I have some more information

  • #73307
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hannah – many thanks for copies of the letters.
    Gary Titley looks like a particularly good contact, AND he speaks Spanish (Spanish wife). I’ve written to him today & hope to hear back soon. Reading over the letters it seems that there is a lot of emphasis on ‘changing legislation’ by MPs. What I am stressing to them in my letters is that the legislation that is already in place is not being adhered to. I’ve also emphasised the problems with lawyers & the Document we are compiling which details this immense disregard for the Law, and the continuing abuses of it by them.

    Fran – good job done 🙂 Look forward to hearing the reply.

    Jim – Many thanks, sure you’ll be excellent at beating off the enemies. I can see you now plastering certain office windows at LR in your capacity as ‘Glassman’ ❗ (not suggesting you do this though) 😯

  • #73309
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Gary

    I was directed to a newspaper: COSTA CALIDA NACHRICHTEN:
    http://www.costacalidanachrichten.com

    There was apparently an article called ‘Landraub Stopp!’ last December which I think highlighted Procoal Villas, La Aljambra. Don’t understand any German at all I am afraid, so can’t find it. Hope you will be able to ❓

  • #73311
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    If you go to http://babelfish.altavista.com/, there is an option to put the page url in for translation. It is a pretty literal translation, but you can make sense of the articles.

    Mark

  • #73312
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne
    Trust me I am the best at fighting off the enemy,as I never give in,thanks for the leaflet details and I promise to take them everywhere and give them out at every opportunity.
    As I worked the as an agent (left as I was disgusted)I do know several of the hotels that some of the big guys use for veiwing trip clients so nothing ventured nothing gained 👿
    They will love to see me again at our development as I have one apartment left and I am sure the will recall my previous visits.

    Regards and keep the fight going (not gone yet :D)

    Regards
    Jim
    😀

  • #73313
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Glassman wrote
    Trust me I am the best at fighting off the enemy,as I never give in….
    Not another Scorpio Jim, like Suzi and me, are you. 😉

  • #73314
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Melosine

    Nope I am a cancer and toooo stubborn for my own good at times or probably its my up bringing in Devon that Im to thick to quit. 😕
    There is no such thing as loosing for me as many will confirm and thats what we need 😈
    Best mate to have but the worst enemy thats little ole me and with this thread with the momentum and support to date we can at least give them a damn good run for their money.
    Anyone that wants any photos taken of a deveopment in or around Marbella please P/M me and I can add to Suzannes request and a few others on my development.

    Regards to you
    Hope your gardening is going well 🙂

    Jim 😀

  • #73317
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, Thanks for that have sent an e mail to the newspaper explaining what is going on and asking if they know of a similar group or organization that represents German purchasers who have experienced property problems in Spain

  • #73318
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Fantastic – We are full of Action today! That’s good news Gary (did you see the new thread on Procoal Villas which is where I hear many German folk are affected) ❓ Hopefully, when the translation option is on SPSP, it will help globally. I’m writing to our new PM Gordon tonight.

    For any newcomers:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #73324
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The European Commission has decided to refer Spain to the European Court of Justice over its laws on land-and-town planning that apply to the Valencia Community (known as “LRAU” and “LUV”).

    Part Quote:
    ‘…..The Commission sent a second letter of formal notice on 4 April 2006 (IP/06/443, 4 April 2006) and a second reasoned opinion on 12 October 2006 (IP/06/1370, 12 October 2006), asking the Spanish authorities for their observations on several provisions of the LUV and on their compliance with previous warnings regarding the continued award of contracts and in breach of the EU procurement Directives.

    The Commission further considers that the Spanish authorities did not comply with their EU obligations, by failing to adopt measures to prevent the award of contracts and in violation of EU legislation……’

    http://www.sopo.org/cgi-bin/news.cgi?action=full_story_SOPO&id=93124&unpub=false&strt=20&act=next&term=&keyword_bool=&websiteId=2

    Glad to see the EU Commission fighting here.

  • #73325
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    looks promising, lets hope CDS areas are soon to get similar treatment?

  • #73326
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m sure it will Goodstich,
    Now we have the support of Michael Cashman MEP & his Office, and others, things will move on positively. Forwards ❗ 🙂

  • #73333
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Our Petition has been mentioned here:
    (Article 29/06/07)

    http://www.cbnalmeria.com/cbna/front.htm

  • #73334
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “A further blow to home owners was the news that the government had shelved plans to increase prison sentences to anyone found guilty of crimes related to property scams. Prior to the local elections in May, the government had pledged to reform the penal code to stiffen prison sentences for anyone convicted of crimes related to urban corruption.
    But a failure to reach a consensus with the other parties means the plans have now been quietly dropped”.

    So all the parties have a hand in this little gem then.
    Oh well, so much for election promises…. probably too many brothers, cousins and uncles involved.

    Spain coming down hard on corruption?
    About as much chance as Osama bin Laden playing Alladdin in your local panto this Christmas.

  • #73362
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne , I do not know if the attachment below is light at the end of the tunnel or another train coming, but it does seems progress is being made in some quarters albeit after 4 plus years delay.
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/mortgages/article.html?in_article_id=401289&in_page_id=8

  • #73364
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne, I know that the time line is some what historic but it seems that some people were in fact compensated ,although I realize only a few ,but the Law even in Spain is about precedent ,so will have to see how this subsequently plays out.

  • #73365
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Gary,
    This is part of the EU Commission Report from March 2007:

    ‘After a second visit in 2005 a report was prepared by the Committee …to plenary where, in December 2005 the resolution was approved…
    It had been hoped that this would have a positive impact on the decision makers in Spain particularly as in Valencia a set of new
    land laws, notably the LUV, was replacing the discredited LRAU. A change of government in Madrid led to a review of the national framework land law and this at least looked to be an encouraging sign although the draft law still contains several anomalies in relation to EU law.

    The Petitions Committee has nevertheless persisted on the basis that the fundamental rights of European citizens to their legitimately acquired property continued to be violated. In addition, the Committee had serious grounds to believe that specific European legislation
    for which the European Parliament, the Commission and Council have competence was not being respected by the Valencian government
    and the Spanish authorities. The European Commission agreed with this assessment as regards the EU Directive on Public Procurement for
    which an Article 226 infringement proceeding has been launched.

    It seems highly probable, following the Committee’s investigations, that other Directives are also not respected when large urbanisation
    projects are decided upon. They include the Environmental Impact Directives, the Water Framework Directive, the Waste Water Directive,
    the Habitats Directive, and the Birds Directive and in many cases also the Money Laundering Directive. All this is in addition to the provisions
    of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the EU Treaty itself insofar as it incorporates into EU law the provisions of the European Charter of Human Rights for which redress may be sought at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

    Last but not least, elected members of the European Parliament have a direct responsibility towards the European citizens who elected them to
    ensure that their rights are upheld within the EU wherever they may choose to live. When they are contacted specifically on the basis of petitions they have an additional duty under Article 194 of the treaty to act, and in doing so, they work with the national or regional authorities to try to find a solution to the serious concerns of citizens.’

    Sorry this is so long but I think it highlights the continuing disregard for Law in many areas in Spain. As far as I understand at the moment, The European Court of Justice is where these matters may have to be settled. The corrupt lawyers IMO are at the heart of petpetuating these problems, and may have to be dealt with there too. I shall have pleasure in providing them with our bulging Lawyer Complaints Document.

  • #73368
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The corrupt lawyers IMO are at the heart of petpetuating these problems, and may have to be dealt with there too. I shall have pleasure in providing them with our bulging Lawyer Complaints Document.

    Maybe I should also add on top of our complaint about DLM, our second set of lawyers who asked for funds to be paid into the private account of the lawyer who was on maternity leave!!! 😯 When we refused and after a telephone conversation with the English brother-in-law, also a lawyer, of the said Spanish lawyer we were told by them that we undermined their trustworthiness and that they would no longer act for us! 😯 😯 No loss they were useless.

  • #73369
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Gary – it is interesting to read your link to ‘thisismoney.co.uk.’ which showed the optimism written back in 2005, and compare it to what they are writing now which reflects the reality that stands today.

    June 2005 – “HUNDREDS of millions of pounds in compensation is to be paid to Britons who have had property seized under the ‘land grab’ law on Spain’s Costa Blanca”.
    June 2007 – “Homeowners whose properties and land were seized were promised compensation but they say the cash has not materialised, leaving thousands stuck with huge problems”.

    June 2005 – “Now the law (LRAU) is to be scrapped following negotiations between Spanish politicians and a European Union…..New legislation (LUV), to be approved by the European Parliament, will be in place by September to protect property owners”.
    June 2007 – (quoting Michael Cashman) ‘I sincerely hope that the Spanish regional authorities will now make changes and put an end to the abuses of the law rather than pretending the problem doesn’t exist. Thousands of people’s homes are still at risk from this abusive law.’

    June 2005 – “For 11 years, developers and corrupt mayors have exploited loopholes in a Valencia regional law to fill their pockets at the expense of homeowners, many of whom have seen their retirement dreams shattered”.
    June 2007 – Michael Cashman: “It saddens me to have to take the floor once again on this issue. More than 18 months after the adoption of the Fourtou Report in December 2005 by an overwhelming majority of this House, we are still debating the same issues, and nothing has changed“.

    @Suzanne wrote:

    As far as I understand at the moment, The European Court of Justice is where these matters may have to be settled.

    I agree Suzanne. I can’t see the Spanish doing anything themselves without this type of firm ‘encouragement’. How can they when they don’t even acknowledge that there is a problem to start with – for example, the Partido Popular politicians say that the petitions in Valencia have been imagined.
    The changes made to the LRAU law (the LUV) just didn’t go far enough and the MEP’s report last month re. their new resolution says it all.
    In my opinion there is quite a way to go before there is any light at the end of the tunnel. But when it comes, it will more than likely come from the efforts of the EU and ‘Action’ (!) from the public in the form of petitions and letters bombarding the appropriate bodies rather than from Spain itself.

    Instead of the public throwing their hands up in despair saying “Well, this is Spain” it will be nice if oneday it is the corrupt officials, lawyers and developers who throw their hands up in despair because they know they can’t get away with their corrupt ways anymore and acknowledge “Things are different now” .
    Now what a wonderful result that would be.

  • #73370
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    charlie

    so so true. I really believe nothing will change without being forced from outside Spain. I think there are just to many greedy a**eholes at all levels, (including UK agents/lawyers) benefiting from this dreadful system. They have had the chance to clean up their act and just not done it. At least that seems common knowledge now, and hopefully with pressure from as many people as possible to the right people, we should see change. I just wish more people would come out of the shadows and join the fight. For instance, i read that on the development i was to buy in to (Angel de miraflores), only those from 40 appartments out of 200+ are contributing to the community charges, due to i assume in many cases, dissatisfaction at the development. So have 160+ who are not paying, signed Suzanne’s petition? i doubt it?. Not suprising really, as many of them probably feel this bad publicity makes their chance of selling/renting, even harder, but it’s not helping to force change for the good in the long run.

  • #73374
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @goodstich44 wrote:

    …. many of them probably feel this bad publicity makes their chance of selling/renting, even harder, but it’s not helping to force change for the good in the long run.

    There’s no doubt at all that many believe this, & definitely regard exposure as a threat to their finances.

    It seems to me that those of us in limbo with our ‘purchases’ in Spain fall into one of 3 categories:
    Some have taken up the ‘que sera, sera’ attitude & believe that they can do nothing about the situation, and are content to just sit & wait, & see what happens. Then there are those of us who are fighting with all our strength to get justice & have our legitimate Rights addressed. Finally, there are those who are aware of the facts and have got into league with their corrupt developer & their lawyers in an attempt to sell their illegal properties onto someone else. Not only is this amoral – it is also fraud, and these previous ‘owners’ will not be able to feel ‘relieved it’s over’. People are being charged with this & taken to Court -www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_10768.shtml

    The irony of this is that in Marbella alone 30,000 properties are illegal, yet still the ‘purchaser’ is forced to take the developer to Court to get back what is rightfully theirs. To make things even more unbelievable some are allowed to be counter-sued for not completing on an illegal property ❗ The arrogance of these toe-rags & their superior attitude is sickening. But, remember, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

    Am spending several hours per day on this now & won’t slacken or give up – that’s a Promise. Hopefully I should soon have some responses to letters I’ve recently sent & will keep all informed as soon as they arrive.

  • #73380
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne wrote

    ”The irony of this is that in Marbella alone 30,000 properties are illegal, yet still the ‘purchaser’ is forced to take the developer to Court to get back what is rightfully theirs. To make things even more unbelievable some are allowed to be counter-sued for not completing on an illegal property.”

    This makes my blood boil, just how wrong can wrong be?, and what sort of government crooks would allow this daylight robbery to go on?. If this is not a case for the EU to sort out very quickly, i don’t know what is?

  • #73382
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Goodstich – it makes my blood boil too but on this I feel the judges are seriously to blame as well.
    They shouldn’t allow a counter-suing case to come to court or the ‘argument’ to be brought up in an ongoing case if a legal building licence and/or LFO cannot be provided.
    Wasting the court’s time?

    It is the same with the argument from developers that purchasers are only not wanting to complete because they are investors. And then the judge allows a case to be delayed a further 6 months while they ‘locate’ a witness for this c***p line of defence. Investors have legal rights too when contracts are involved (!) and did these same developers scream “No you can’t” when an ‘investor’ wanted to buy several appartments at a time?

    The judicial system has a lot to answer for in this current mess and that is why I was so happy when I read yesterday that (finally) a judge has been ‘done’ for corrupt activities.

  • #73388
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Goodstich – it makes my blood boil too but on this I feel the judges are seriously to blame as well.
    They shouldn’t allow a counter-suing case to come to court or the ‘argument’ to be brought up in an ongoing case if a legal building licence and/or LFO cannot be provided.
    Wasting the court’s time?

    As Javier (Lawyer) said on another thread:
    “If the counterclaim is the same matter in dispute and the Court does not unify both cases, the lawyer of the first claimant would appeal to the Court in order to avoid a new proceeding. According to my experience, sometimes the Court does not know that there is another case with the same matter. Usually, the petition is accepted if both cases are the same.”

    The problem is that this move from the Developers is solely to put more pressure on, to make people either give-up or pay-up. They know that it is highly likely that a Judge would not allow the further case but the developer & their legal team will take this as far as they possibly can. Obviously if a lawsuit is issued it has to be answered by a lawyer, but this should not be an excuse for them to ask for thousands of Euros more to do so. I know of one person who has been asked more to deal with the counter-claim than the original identical trial that is waiting to be heard.

    But the good news is that with Javier’s information & advice we are better armed to deal with this & stand up against it. These experiences are extremely unpleasant to hear of, but they are also vital for us to build our armour with.

  • #73556
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Fran – Any news from Jim Murphy, or at least an acknowledgement of your letter ❓

  • #73558
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    No, I haven’t received anything from Mr Murphy yet. I will resend in a week if he still hasn’t responded.

    I appreciate that he is new to the job and may have lots of catching up to do, so I’m cutting him some slack.

    I will keep you posted. Thanks anyway for asking.

    Fran 🙂

  • #73559
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just com across this topic and although ot affected, am aware that many others are.
    It is said “I appreciate that he is new to the job and may have lots of catching up to do”.
    You may be being courteous, but is that your problem that he is new to a job. He will have numerous back-up and support staff which will not have changed.
    If you have lost money through corruption or whatever and feel that you need the support of your Government, hassle them. Otherwise, you will go to the bottom of the pile.
    It may not be the most important thing in the world to them, but it is to many who face financial disaster.

  • #73561
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Dear MG

    Thank you for your concern but as one who IS facing possible financial disaster, I have chosen to deal with the situation this way.

    Believe me, this will not be left for long without follow up action, however I am not in a position to email all and every day concerning this matter. It is bad enough having to endure it and it’s possible consequences, but it would send me round the bend if I were to deal with it full time. I also have other responsibilities to attend to – alas more mundane matters like getting the children to school, picking them up, cooking, washing, etc. (I have other stresses that demand more immediate if not equal attention).

    I do not know how long it took for Mr Murphy to respond to the letter that was sent by Suzanne to Geoff Hoon, I’m sure she can answer that for me, however I am under no illusions that the processes of government move slowly, at least slower than some of us would wish.

    Fran

  • #73562
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Fran,

    I, for one, am well aware of your support for many others with Spanish property problems and the time you are spending in dealing with your own case (on top of everything else).

    I started a new thread on the Problem Forum for Letters/Contacts, as the Action Thread was at that time still locked, and is crammed packed with all sorts of info. Jim Murphy’s Office sent me an acknowledgement of my letter & attachments, & said that it had been passed to him for his personal attention & response, which is good news. As you say Fran, he has taken over a new position, and it is encouraging to believe that a new broom sweeps well. Jim Murphy will also, I am sure, be eager to get his teeth into what seems to be a growing & possibly high profile, challenging case. Like you, I believe that being persistent and consistent will bring far more positive results than making a ‘nuisance’ of ourselves.
    We will NOT be ‘going to the bottom of the pile’. 8) 8)

  • #73564
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    My comments were not intended to be offensive or critical, but constructive, but if you are confident that the matter “will NOT be ‘going to the bottom of the pile'” and that “it is encouraging to believe that a new broom”
    It’s fine, but I have a suspician that you do not have experience of dealing with our Ministers and MPs.
    I also must say that if I had been conned out of my money and “facing possible financial disaster”, I wouldn’t mind making a nuisance of myself to anyone who may help my cause.
    How long have replies been awaited for?
    It is etiquette to respond to a formal contact within 14 days.

    A new broom……..but also, he who shouts loudest!!!

  • #73566
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It can be very difficult to strike a balance between being a nuisance and reminding our elected officials of their responsibility to represent the electorate , but persistence does pay off ,I have no doubt that Fran and Suzanne have pitched the tenor of their communication in the right vein .

    The main point is that sustained Political intervention will be essential in securing a resolution to the problems that people are now facing. Even with this support obtaining Justice is an uphill battle as AUN in Valencia can testify, but without it the cause will struggle even more

  • #73847
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Still no reply from the new Minister of Europe, even though I have chased it up. 🙁
    A but rude of them, not even to acknowledge receipt.
    Have you heard any more from them Suzanne ❓

    Cheers, Fran

  • #73873
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Still no response as yet, apart from the acknowledgment.
    Think some ‘phone calls to Minister for Europe’s office next week would be in order now:
    Jim Murphy – Constituency office: 0141 577 0100
    House of Commons: 0207 219 3000

  • #73939
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Been on to Jim Murphy’s office again today, & have been told I will get a reply ‘as soon as possible’. Can’t imagine they’re months behind with correspondence, so more persistent pressure needs to be made here. My patience is starting to wear…..

    If as many as possible of those of us here who have signed Our Petition would phone his Constituency Office (as above), requesting some information & response from him, I think this would make an impact. Action needs to be taken by All of us concerned –PLEASE

  • #73962
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi
    Seems that you have lost a little support,however I will gladly help and contact him as requested.

    Frank

  • #73969
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Frank & thank you. The more voices that are raised and pressure made, we will have to be listened to.

  • #73970
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne
    No problem and am more than happy to help and have signed up to the Action Thread Petition.
    Have taken a great deal of time looking at the efforts you have made and continue to make which appears without any motive other than to just try to make a difference to so many that have been caught in a dreadful net.
    It appears at the moment however that its like something out of starwars, the enemy is very large indeed however the underdogs won in the end

    Frank

  • #73971
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thought you’d already signed, Jim 😉

  • #73975
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,

    I will make the phone calls tomorrow. Sorry I was distracted last week by my little girls 5th birthday. It all got a bit hectic so I didn’t get to the forum much.

    I will keep you posted as to their response. By the way I have joined the AUAN too, to add my support to the local Spanish effort.

    Shame I didn’t just win the euro lottery! 😆
    Regards, Fran

  • #74016
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I have received a reply from Jim Murphy’s office, attaching a copy of the letter sent to me on 31/5/07 from the FCO.

    This says:
    ‘I am not able to comment further on what my colleague has already said and would advise you to continue along the legal route you are currently pursuing.’

    They have not addressed any of the points I have made in my most recent letter, nor have they ackowledged Our Petition or made any comment on it whatsoever.
    They also sent a list of Spanish lawyers – with a Disclaimer.

  • #74021
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    Right ? What do you want us to do.
    Are you happy with the momentum of the petition as there are surely enough people that post all their problems here to help.

    Frank

  • #74027
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Frank,

    I’ll write again. I think that the more of us who write to the Minister for Europe and ask that attention is given to the Abuse of our Rights as EU Citizens, and also ask why is this being allowed to continue, the more effective this will be.

  • #74029
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne
    My letters have gone as promised and will let you know the reply

    Frank

  • #74430
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Much has been written on this thread re. contacting Jim Murphy, our new European Minister, to see if he is willing to help in any way re. helping British purchasers in the form of putting pressure on Spain in the areas needed to protect the rights of those who have been on the end of blatant corruption.
    After what I have read, FORGET IT!! This man is incapable of protecting the rights of British citizens in their own country.

    This poodle of George Brown, regarding a vote on the so-called ‘revived EU constitution’ which a poll states that three quarters of the public want a referendum on, and despite it being a promise to hold a referendum in Labour’s manifesto, states (in support of his ‘Master’):
    “Calls for a public vote are frankly absurd”.
    (He also dismisses claims the treaty is simply a relabelled version of the rejected 2005 constitution, which if he was honest would acknowledge it is).

    Well, Mr. Jim Murphy, with that arrogant and total disregard for the British public, hopes that you would stand up for us either at home or abroad, are also “frankly absurd”, as we now realise.
    I say: Michael Cashman for Minister of Europe!

  • #74235
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Much has been written on this thread re. contacting Jim Murphy, our new European Minister, to see if he is willing to help in any way re. helping British purchasers in the form of putting pressure on Spain in the areas needed to protect the rights of those who have been on the end of blatant corruption.
    After what I have read, FORGET IT!! This man is incapable of protecting the rights of British citizens in their own country.

    This poodle of George Brown, regarding a vote on the so-called ‘revived EU constitution’ which a poll states that three quarters of the public want a referendum on, and despite it being a promise to hold a referendum in Labour’s manifesto, states (in support of his ‘Master’):
    “Calls for a public vote are frankly absurd”.
    (He also dismisses claims the treaty is simply a relabelled version of the rejected 2005 constitution, which if he was honest would acknowledge it is).

    Well, Mr. Jim Murphy, with that arrogant and total disregard for the British public, hopes that you would stand up for us either at home or abroad, are also “frankly absurd”, as we now realise.
    I say: Michael Cashman for Minister of Europe!

  • #74256
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,

    Well after all my chasing etc. I got the same fob off letter (albeit a polite and sympathetic one) from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, about they cant interfere in the legal process of another EU country, blah!, blah!
    Mr Murphy obviously doesn’t answer his own mail!! He’s obviously not that interested.
    Got the list of lawyers in the Almeria region too – with its disclaimer! I wouldn’t trust any of them in our neck of the woods. Sorry to any honest, hardworking lawyers out there who read this.

    Also, apologies if I just seem to be reiterating what everyones saying, but I thought you should know that I hadn’t forgotten.

    What next? Keep raising the issues? But with whom?

    Fran

  • #74456
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,

    Well after all my chasing etc. I got the same fob off letter (albeit a polite and sympathetic one) from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, about they cant interfere in the legal process of another EU country, blah!, blah!
    Mr Murphy obviously doesn’t answer his own mail!! He’s obviously not that interested.
    Got the list of lawyers in the Almeria region too – with its disclaimer! I wouldn’t trust any of them in our neck of the woods. Sorry to any honest, hardworking lawyers out there who read this.

    Also, apologies if I just seem to be reiterating what everyones saying, but I thought you should know that I hadn’t forgotten.

    What next? Keep raising the issues? But with whom?

    Fran

  • #74259
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    What about the oppostition party, the Partido Popular?

  • #74459
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    What about the oppostition party, the Partido Popular?

  • #74264
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy – I doubt it’s worth holding too much store there.
    Regarding petitions signed by those involved in the Valencian Land Grab scandal, Michael Cashman’s MEP report stated:
    “The Partido Popular politicians say that the petitions in Valencia have been imagined”.

  • #74464
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Katy – I doubt it’s worth holding too much store there.
    Regarding petitions signed by those involved in the Valencian Land Grab scandal, Michael Cashman’s MEP report stated:
    “The Partido Popular politicians say that the petitions in Valencia have been imagined”.

  • #74284
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    🙁 My letter didn’t even warrant a reply 🙄

    just not interested , its like hitting your head against a brick wall 🙄

    axwhale

  • #74484
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    🙁 My letter didn’t even warrant a reply 🙄

    just not interested , its like hitting your head against a brick wall 🙄

    axwhale

  • #74286
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think that the more brick walls we come up against, somehow they have to be turned into bridges, however difficult. Continual pressure on EU politicians is vital, whether or not they appear to be interested at the moment. As far as Jim Murphy goes, he is coming under considerable pressure by his own party to change his stance on the EU Constitution, & ‘giving up’ is not an option. Am looking into more avenues, and have just discovered EUROJUST:

    ‘Eurojust is a new European Union body established in 2002 to enhance the effectiveness of the competent authorities within Member States when they are dealing with serious cross-border and organised crime. Eurojust stimulates and improves the coordination of investigations and prosecutions and also supports the Member States in order to render their investigations and prosecutions more effective.

    Eurojust fulfils a unique role as a new permanent body in the European legal area. Its mission is to enhance the development of Europe-wide cooperation in criminal justice cases. This means that Eurojust is a key interlocutor with the European institutions such as the Parliament, the Council and the Commission.’
    http://europa.eu/agencies/pol_agencies/eurojust/index_en.htm

    I will write to the President, Michael Kennedy. The Malaya Case is a Criminal Case which is still affecting thousands of us. And, I will also inform Eurojust of the SPSP Lawyer Complaints Document that continues to grow.

    Will post more asap. There may also be some value in contacting opposing UK political parties, highlighting the dismal response we are getting so far. This may be attractive news to them 💡

    (Axwhale – Hope you insist on a reply to your letter.)

  • #74486
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I think that the more brick walls we come up against, somehow they have to be turned into bridges, however difficult. Continual pressure on EU politicians is vital, whether or not they appear to be interested at the moment. As far as Jim Murphy goes, he is coming under considerable pressure by his own party to change his stance on the EU Constitution, & ‘giving up’ is not an option. Am looking into more avenues, and have just discovered EUROJUST:

    ‘Eurojust is a new European Union body established in 2002 to enhance the effectiveness of the competent authorities within Member States when they are dealing with serious cross-border and organised crime. Eurojust stimulates and improves the coordination of investigations and prosecutions and also supports the Member States in order to render their investigations and prosecutions more effective.

    Eurojust fulfils a unique role as a new permanent body in the European legal area. Its mission is to enhance the development of Europe-wide cooperation in criminal justice cases. This means that Eurojust is a key interlocutor with the European institutions such as the Parliament, the Council and the Commission.’
    http://europa.eu/agencies/pol_agencies/eurojust/index_en.htm

    I will write to the President, Michael Kennedy. The Malaya Case is a Criminal Case which is still affecting thousands of us. And, I will also inform Eurojust of the SPSP Lawyer Complaints Document that continues to grow.

    Will post more asap. There may also be some value in contacting opposing UK political parties, highlighting the dismal response we are getting so far. This may be attractive news to them 💡

    (Axwhale – Hope you insist on a reply to your letter.)

  • #74579
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    How about sending details of your letters and the ” fob off” to the Sunday Times.
    Maybe you good get them to print an article about the petition and the failure of HNM Government to protect the rights of its citizens.

  • #74379
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    How about sending details of your letters and the ” fob off” to the Sunday Times.
    Maybe you good get them to print an article about the petition and the failure of HNM Government to protect the rights of its citizens.

  • #74580
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Michael,

    I have already spoken with Mark about this, so we’ll see if anything goes ahead.

  • #74380
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Michael,

    I have already spoken with Mark about this, so we’ll see if anything goes ahead.

  • #74649
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have been communicating with AUAN, & am very happy to see that Our Petition & SPSP is featured on their home page. They have been a great support and source of information & ideas.
    http://www.almanzora-au.org/

    I am sure this will prove to be of great additional support to Our Petition and the Lawyer Complaints Document.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #75027
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have received a reply from EUROJUST, The Hague, this afternoon.

    They confirmed that they have visited the SPSP website, and “considered the distressing material which appears under the ‘Your Stories’ tab”.

    They explain that:
    “Eurojust does not have any authority or competence to act in civil matters. However, given the seriousness of the situation which you have outlined, I have spoken to the Spanish National Member at Eurojust and have referred your email to him for his views”.

    They have also passed details to me of a contact at the City of London Police, which has particular expertise in dealing with frauds with an international element. I will write this weekend, and follow up with a telephone call next week asking for an appointment to meet up in person asap & discuss any further inroads that can be taken.

    The email from EUROJUST is quite long & detailed, and obviously written by someone who had taken the time and effort to listen to the issues raised in my correspondence to them. Will look forward to the response from their Spanish National Member, and in the meantime get on to The Police ❗

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    p.s. Have not yet received a reply from Franco Frattini, the Vice President of the European Commission or Transparency International.

  • #75035
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A further letter from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office has arrived this morning. I have to say its contents are far more responsible & encouraging than the reply I received from Jim Murphy’s Constituency Office.

    The letter covers 3 pages and admits that the problems outlined “adversely affects a significant number of British and other European property owners in Spain, and we have raised our concern over Spanish land laws on many occasions at the highest level with the Spanish authorities”.

    It goes on to detail meetings, together with dates, between the FCO & the Spanish Ambassador, the Foreign Secretary & his Spanish counterpart Miguel Angel Moratinos, the British Embassy in Madrid in conjunction with other EU Embassies whose nationals are similarly affected. Meetings have also been held with Manuel Chaves, President of the Andalucia region, with particular regard to the Malaya corruption case.

    This letter again notes that Spanish laws are a matter for the Spanish Government, but acknowledges that British Members of the EP are actively involved in the work of the EPs Petitions Committee:
    “The European Parliament and the European Commission are actively engaged over the possibility that the Land Laws in several areas of Spain are in breach of EU Law, and we understand that there are cases pending at the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights”.
    The final paragraph states:
    “We know that we need to continue to exert pressure on the Spanish authorities, and I can assure you that we are prepared to keep doing so”.

    I will keep up the communication, & hope that we can continue to exert the same pressure on the British Government that they promise to bear on the Spanish Authorities.

  • #75039
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done Suzanne, this letter from the FCO does give cause for encouragement. Admire your tenacity over all of this.

    Can you give us an idea of how recent these meetings were?

  • #75041
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you Charlie. The most recent meeting was on 7 September 2007 in Madrid (Foreign Secretary). FCO Secretary also met with Spanish Ambassador on 21 May 2007 & “raised the issue”. Another meeting in August 2006 with Manuel chaves was arranged on behalf of UK citizens specifically.

    It is so clear that the more pressure we put to bear, demanding input from the various authorities, the better. I’ve added FCO contact details on the SPSP website today, & also need to add to the ‘Your Stories’ section. Just wish there was more than 24-hours in a day ❗

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #75169
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Have been onto my contact at the City of London Police this morning, asking what action can be taken about any REAs who sell Spanish properties without Bank Guarantees (as required by Spanish Law), & illegal properties. Particular emphasis being put on their U.K. Property Exhibitions. Have also noticed that at these Exhibitions they often have, in person, a representative of their ‘recommended lawyers’.

  • #75745
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    After several emails & ‘phone calls backwards & forwards have now been asked to a meeting with a specialist Police department. Will post whatever details I may be allowed to, but the ‘fight’ continues.

  • #75752
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It is not down to REA’s to give BG’s. They are given by the developer. The developer is accountable. Regarding REA’s selling illegal developments, from our experience, we were told that our development was legal at the time of selling! 🙄 I’m sure many other REA’s would say the same.

  • #76037
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello All

    I am having major problems with Aifos refunding my money on the above development.

    In 2004 I purchased a 3 bed aprtment off plan + Paid the deposit to Aifos.
    I then had to make 3 payments against promissoru notes, the 1st payment was made no problme.
    However due to delaysd in obtaining the build license I asked my solicitor to apply for a delay in paying the 2nd promissary note, they duly did this but Aifos did agree to the delay but did send back their reply until the day after the payment was due to be made.

    Aifos now claim that I should have sent the promissary notes back to them via my bank + that they will not refund my money.

    I am in the process of speaking to my solicitor (Manuel Hortelano) to take them to court.

    Is any one else on here affected with the above development + can anyone give me any advice on how to get my money back.

    Please help !!!

  • #76046
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Gary – there are quite a few threads on here re Aifos, some recent. If you do a ‘Search’ you may find some useful info. Think the most important thing is to have a Tough Independent Litigator fighting your case. All the best.

    p.s. Have a look at this:
    http://www.devwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=775

  • #76047
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks Suzanne

    I will instruct my lawyer to go ahead asap.

    looks like im going to have a fight on my hands.

  • #76050
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Gary – A much harder fight for AIFOS though, no doubt 🙂
    All the best.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #76075
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Post on devwatch re this development.

    http://www.devwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=775

  • #76200
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    forgive me i’ve not read through everything so i don’t know if you’ve seen this.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7094019.stm

    regards

    Paul

  • #76205
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks Paul, no I hadn’t seen it. This is really good news.
    As they say:
    “Consumers have rights when they shop within Europe and the Government has funded this centre to help people secure them.”

    My meeting with the Fraud Squad went well & a representative for Scam Busters was also present. Can’t go into on-line details at present, but particular emphasis was also put on the mis-selling of Spanish properties via the U.K. A lot of evidence was submitted to prove this, including the promotion & selling of properties without BGs, despite oral & printed statements to the contrary. More to be done of course, but contact is on-going. 8)

  • #76212
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Well done Suzanne,
    Have always been of the opinion that if UK had stopped, still not too late now hopefully, the British promoters from the initial con then most folk wouldn’t be having the problems.
    Transporting people out to countries, where developments are, to sign up takes onus of any mis selling responsibilty away from them !!
    Crooks taking advantage of a loophole in consumer law.

  • #76216
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne 😀

    Your a true star.

    Frank 8)

  • #76217
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,

    I am so pleased you are getting a response from the fraud squad.

    I contacted them more than three years ago regarding our fraud. I spent a considerable amount of time with them to see whether they could do anything for us and they were unable to do so. Interesting you are making progress – it seems to me there is something wrong in the system! Perhaps I should contact the London branch perhaps I may get some assistance!

    Lizi

  • #76218
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    New Legislation (re: The Fraud Act) came into force in January 2007.

    It was explained to me that fraud can be committed in three specific ways: False Representation, Failing to Disclose Information, Abuse of Position.

    The Timing in reporting ‘Fraud’ is crucial – which is why for many of us the job of getting our money back after many years, now has to be done via the Spanish Courts. BUT by concentrating on the process & where it all started from is another matter.

    Sorry to sound a bit vague about this, but have tried to explain what is now being investigated, as best as possible.

    It’s so important to keep piling on the pressure to the British Government. In view of the seriousness & scale of the property scandal in Spain, I find it amazing that more isn’t being done by them – Yet, that is. Although the news in the link that Paul posted above is encouraging.

  • #76219
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne,

    Many thanks for the information.

    All the best,

    Lizi

  • #76220
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne 😉

    It was explained to me that fraud can be committed in three specific ways: False Representation, Failing to Disclose Information, Abuse of Position. 😕 😕

    Doh !!! Thats pretty well a 100% strike rate then in the property game in Spain including rather a considerable amount of solicitors,councils.judges.
    and of course the agents both Brits and Spanish. 😕 😕

    Super Cool
    Frank 8) 8) H . B ? By the way 😉

  • #76221
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Super Cool Frank – Think this property scandal in Spain is on an unprecedented scale.

    Yes, right again Frank, & many thanks for your good wishes 🙂

  • #78419
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just wanted to say I’m still working hard with Our Petition & the Lawyer Complaints Document. Also waiting for another reply from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office – I won’t let them forget about Our Petition etc which is growing daily. Am hoping to be able to present it when we reach 1,000 signatures but at the moment almost half way there.

  • #80066
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In the most recent email I have received from Michael Cashman MEP he tells me that the British Government can do nothing, & that Our Petition should be presented to the Spanish Government. I really have very little faith in taking this action.

    I will try & speak with MC on the telephone, but would be interested in what others think. My focus has been on getting the EU Committee involved in this mess, as I really feel initial intervention is needed outside of Spain.

    edited to say above statement in blue now retracted – 1/4/08
    sorry – problems with the colour in editing!!

  • #80067
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Did you see the Lanzarote thread?
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3036

    Am hoping the EU will now get off their backsides as their money (funding) has become involved.

    I’m also hoping this could be a breakthrough finally for some ‘Action’. 😉

  • #80085
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    From the correspondence that I have seen coming from various MP,s and MEPs, (same one’s Charlie has seen) ,they all give their sympathy, say they will pass the letters on to this person or place, but the end result is…. they say there’s nothing they can do because they cannot intervene! As you say, very discouraging.

  • #80164
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I can understand that they are ducking the issue by saying that they cannot intervene and to some extent they are right. However this does not mean that they can wash their hands from a very serious issue affecting their constituent .

    Yes, the Builders & Bankers will appeal tactically. Legal system does allow for it. Whether it is in the spirit of the law is the question. Our MP, MEPS the parasites that they are should be taking and up matter with the concerned body in Spain with threats of the recourse that British Government has at its disposal. After all they have been doing this in the case Gibraltar.

  • #80165
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne:

    I had read in the past that an Austrian MEP, has taken up a case of a Austrian on the subject. I think you should also contact him/her and forward a list of issues to him/her.

    This could highlight the extent and the involvement of residents of other countries and can be seen as a bigger issue than a UK related one.

    Finally, I feel that you should also add to the petition the names of people who are not affected but are aware of the acuteness of the problem.

  • #80167
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Shakeel, Could you please let me have details of the Austrian MEP, & I will write. Very good idea.

    From the start of Our Petition I have encouraged all to sign it, & since then there has been a separate section on the website to make this stand out. Many who live in Spain & have had successful purchases have signed & shown their support in this way.

    Please – to those of you who have not yet done so – sign Our Petition. And if you are a couple, please sign it twice. Thank you.

    I will update the ‘Your Stories’ section with further testimonials, over the next few days.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #80171
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Sorry, cannot for life of me remember the name. It was on one of the thread on the forums. Perhaps you can start a new thread on the main forum and the person will get in touch with the name or some other person will do so .

  • #80173
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne –
    his name is Herbert Bösch, a member of the European parliament’s budgetary control committee, and it was regarding the Valencia land law and the case of the Wesenauer family.

  • #80176
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Dangermouse Charlie!! 😉

  • #80177
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you Charlie. I knew some one will read and respond. For this reason I did not pm Suzanne.

  • #80220
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    [

    quote]n the most recent email I have received from Michael Cashman MEP he tells me that the British Government can do nothing, & that Our Petition should be presented to the Spanish Government. I really have very little faith in taking this action.

    I will try & speak with MC on the telephone, but would be interested in what others think. My focus has been on getting the EU Committee involved in this mess, as I really feel initial intervention is needed outside of Spain.

    Hi, I’m a new member of this group. Thanks for all your stories/feedback, it’s so useful.

    We put down 30% in 2004 on Los Lagos. Our Previous Audience Hearing is in May, but the developer has stalled us already from February, because of “forgetting” some part of his argument, so already we are witnessing the stalling process. We ran a credit check on the developer last year and all was ok. Running regular checks on them/him seems like a good idea.

    Way back, our counsel in Spain suggested sueing the Town Hall rather than the developer and this is a course we are still considering. However, regarding the quote above, she (our counsel) has just emailed me this morning saying we would probably have much more luck with the Spanish Government than with ours in the UK or in the EP. Has anyone any experience of this?

    As you know, the cases can go either way, depending on the judge, but if he loses, the developer goes straight to appeal. We’ve been advised that we can now “negotiate” with the developer, but don’t want to do this, as it will obviously weaken our case. The ONLY reason we don’t want to complete is because our development is illegal and has no FOL. NOT because property prices have allegedly fallen, which is the developers argument.

    Cheers
    Janemart

    [/quote]

  • #80252
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I had an interesting conversation with Michael Cashman’s assistant in Brussels this morning. MC is travellling at the moment but returns next week, before the next EU Petitions Committee Meeting. A time is being arranged for me to talk with him before this meeting. The property problems in Spain & the many it continues to affect will be one of the key issues discussed at this EU PC Meeting.

  • #80421
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Had a very good conversation with Michael Cashman this morning. Firstly, the email I received saying that ‘the British Government can do nothing’ was sent to me by an ‘assistant’ in his office & this is NOT the case. So, very glad I questioned this.

    He asked me to submit an Appeal today with specific attention to certain details in Our Petition & also aspects of my own case. I have now done this as succinctly & briefly as possible – not easy! MC says that this will be read to the EU Petitions Committee tomorrow in Brussels. I’m sure we’re making progress – slowly but surely.

    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_15834.shtml

  • #80521
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    From todays Costa Blanca News:

    MEP calls for halt to development abuses
    Spanish government challenged by EU

    By Dave Jones
    “THE PAIN in Spain has got to come to an end.”

    This was the message meted out by MEP Michael Cashman following the visit by Costa expats to the European Parliament in Brussels.

    Dozens of residents hit by illegal building – and land law and construction industry abuses – gave evidence to the EU Petitions Committee on Wednesday over their plight.

    Members of pressure group Abusos Urbanísticos No (AUN) had been invited to share their experiences with MEPs and association vice-president Charles Svoboda attended along with residents from Catral, Orihuela Costa, Monóvar and Parcent, amongst others.

    Following the meeting Petitions Committee vice-chair Michael Cashman called on Spain’s president José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero to force regional governments to change their laws.

    Mr Cashman told CB News yesterday (Thursday) that the meeting had been ‘very positive’ and he hoped for concrete action from the Spanish authorities.

    “I am calling for a moratorium on any future land grab, as well as a moratorium on the legal practice of the demolition of illegal properties,” he said.

    “I have also called on the national government to negotiate with regional governments to enforce this moratorium.

    “This is a scandal of unprecedented proportions and involves appalling human misery.

    “The fact that the Parliament took so much time to listen to the people affected shows the importance we are placing on this.”

    He added that action from the Spanish government was the only way to restore the country’s damaged reputation in the rest of Europe.

    And he said the Petitions Committee would be drawing up a fourth report in which MEPs will demand that such action is taken.

    “We will not be coming back to Spain because we have enough information already,” he said.

    He also had a message for the people who had travelled to Brussels to tell their story.

    “It was wonderful to see so many petitioners there and it was a reminder of the human element involved in this tragedy,” he said.

    djones@cbnews.es

  • #85856
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The European Commission have at last presented a case to the European Court of Justice against ‘the Kingdom of Spain’, initially regarding breaches of EU Law in Valencia. Hopefully in time this will filter through to work for all of us who have problems with illegal properties in any area of Spain. It’s good news too for some of us who have taken our individual cases finally to the ECJ.

    In the meantime, we’ll just keep fighting & making our voices heard.

    http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/gettext.pl?where=&lang=en&num=79919185C19080306&doc=T&ouvert=T&seance=REQ_COMM#1>of

  • #88323
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Today I was able to hand deliver a letter to 10 Downing Street regarding Our Petition. I was initially told this was not possible, but after some discussion (etc!), I was allowed past the iron railings, and the letter has been delivered. Remember the days when anyone could walk along Downing Street?

    Our Petition will be initially handed to the Prime Minister early in the New Year. If you haven’t signed, there is still time to do so.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #88328
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good job Suzanne.

    Mark

  • #88330
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Suzanne wrote:

    Today I was able to hand deliver a letter to 10 Downing Street regarding Our Petition. I was initially told this was not possible, but after some discussion (etc!), I was allowed past the iron railings, and the letter has been delivered. Remember the days when anyone could walk along Downing Street?

    Our Petition will be initially handed to the Prime Minister early in the New Year. If you haven’t signed, there is still time to do so.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    Great news Suzanne we signed petition in its early days.
    I have been lobbying our euro MEP in the meantime. I will refer her to Mr Cashmans efforts.
    Good luck, perhaps this will encourage those with head in sand that things will just sort themselves out and they will get all their money back to realise that the only way to get any satisfaction is to pursue the crooks all the way to prison and beyond.

  • #88332
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Dear Suzanne,
    You have my highest admiration especially as I understand this is still a single handed effort by yourself to assist all those with build problems in Spain.
    You are a truly modern day suffragette and I wish you every success with GB.

  • #88336
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    So do I..well done 😀

  • #88337
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you very much for all your support. It’s really appreciated & helps keep the old batteries fully charged up ❗

    I’m absolutely convinced that the combined efforts of all our letters & petitions etc is making a difference; eg today on Typically Spanish:

    ‘The European Parliament is threatening to freeze funding to Spain unless real estate abuses are not brought to an end……’
    http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_19105.shtml

    I’m going through all the signatures over the next few days & asking those who have signed & are taking legal action if they would mind divulging how much money they have paid to said developers (some have mentioned this already). This will be mentioned on Our Petition as a total sum from those who have volunteered this info. It will only be the tip of the iceberg, I know, but I think it would add more impact & give a clearer picture.

    Some have also signed as a couple, so I will re-count & can list these as 2 signatures.

    Thanks again 🙂

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #88368
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    😉

    Just Frank 8)

  • #88389
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne

    well done you!!

    you are doing a fantastic job. We have to keep the pressure on those who can influence regulation and justice. As we well know, the crooks and low-life of the property world will prosper in the least regulated area’s, though you wonder how much longer those in a position to force change in Spain will turn a deaf ear now that their incompetance has come home to roost?

  • #88418
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve received a letter from 10 Downing Street this morning, dated 4 December. In part:
    ‘The Prime Minister has asked me to thank you for your recent letter. Mr Brown was pleased that you felt able to write to him about property in Spain. A careful note has been made of your comments…..’.
    It goes on to say that a copy will be passed to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, as ‘he feels that it is important that they are aware of your concerns…..’. This is good, as hopefully this will address a higher official than I’ve previously had a response from. I last wrote to the FCO on 19 Nov but haven’t had a reply as yet.

    I also now have contact details to make arrangements to hand in Our Petition, via the door at No. 10.

    We’re making progress 😀 😀

    Still time to sign, please:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #88436
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Good glad to hear its coming together lets hope for the powers to be do the right thing for everyone.

    Thanks for all your effort .

  • #89002
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    New Years Greetings! Hoping for the best year yet – one with results!!

    I’ve now drafted the letter I intend to send to our 78 MEPs et al and want to reference the SPSP alongside the Protest March and the Petition to the Governor of the Bank of Sp. as part of the January actions. Do you have a definite date yet for delivering it to No 10? The BoS one will be sent in the last week of January as I’ve got a couple of national press articles coming out within the next ten days so hope to get a few more signatures from them.

    Best
    roots

  • #89013
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Roots,

    You’re making great progress. Fantastic 🙂 I’m a little behind with emails etc (recovering from surgery) but hope to be back in full ‘Action’ mode very soon.

    No, a date hasn’t yet been set to present Our Petition to No. 10, but hopefully by the end of January,which gives some more time to get lots more signatures – hopefully. Will post the date.

    Regards to all for a healthy & successful 2009. And the fortitude to deal with the inevitable hurdles along the way.

    Best regards, Suzanne

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #89114
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    There should be thousands of signatures on Our Petition – not hundreds; currently just over 400 😕
    This is not even scraping the surface.

    I’ve put details on as many forums as I can cope with, and also typically spanish. If anyone frequents another forum where it hasn’t been mentioned, please do so. Thanks.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #89490
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Reply from ‘Iberia Team’ at the FCO, in response to my letter to Caroline Flint MP, Minister for Europe.

    ‘….may I take this opportunity to express my sympathy for the very difficult situation that you have found yourself in following your investment in a property in Spain. I am aware that increasing numbers of British citizens are being caught up in property related problems in Spain and that this is a very serious issue. However, as I’m sure you are aware from our previous correspondence, there is little that the (FCO) can do to intervene directly in individual cases.

    The British government has no authority to get involved in any matters concerning Spanish domestic legislation…..Property laws are the competence of individual Member States……It is important to be clear that this is an internal Spanish issue……’.

    The letter also contains links to Spanish Minister of Health, & EU links.

    This seems to be a standard letter that is being sent out; although others have an additional comment of:
    ‘….the problem you are experiencing is not unique to you or Spain at this time of acute economic downturn. On the 12 December the Prime Minister and his European colleagues launched a €200 billion European Economic Recovery Plan, to create jobs and stimulate economic growth in the Euro zone and the UK…’

    WE KNOW OUR PROBLEMS ARE NOT UNIQUE! Did they bother to read our letters in full 👿
    The ‘economic downturn’ has nothing to do with our serious complaints! Nor do we want any sympathy from the FCO! As for Spanish Laws & customs; Spanish Law is not being abided to in Spain on our behalf, and Spanish Customs do not give a licence for criminal actions! Nor are we talking about a handful of individual cases!

    When Our Petition is in front of the Prime Minister, and he at least reads part of its dossier of gross criminal actions, maybe, just maybe, we’ll get some intervention in this scandal, catalogue of abuses & downright theft in many cases. The EU pumping money into Spain ‘to stimulate economic growth’ will be the final insult.

    Thanks to all who have signed Our Petition, and for those who haven’t there is still time. I was up until the very early hours sending & responding to more emails, and finally read through most of the dossier so far. No wonder I’m raging today. Sorry for the rant, but at least the signatures are growing.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    p.s. In a letter from the FCO September 2007, they stated:
    “We know that we need to continue to exert pressure on the Spanish authorities, and I can assure you that we are prepared to keep doing so”.

  • #89290
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Reply from ‘Iberia Team’ at the FCO, in response to my letter to Caroline Flint MP, Minister for Europe.

    ‘….may I take this opportunity to express my sympathy for the very difficult situation that you have found yourself in following your investment in a property in Spain. I am aware that increasing numbers of British citizens are being caught up in property related problems in Spain and that this is a very serious issue. However, as I’m sure you are aware from our previous correspondence, there is little that the (FCO) can do to intervene directly in individual cases.

    The British government has no authority to get involved in any matters concerning Spanish domestic legislation…..Property laws are the competence of individual Member States……It is important to be clear that this is an internal Spanish issue……’.

    The letter also contains links to Spanish Minister of Health, & EU links.

    This seems to be a standard letter that is being sent out; although others have an additional comment of:
    ‘….the problem you are experiencing is not unique to you or Spain at this time of acute economic downturn. On the 12 December the Prime Minister and his European colleagues launched a €200 billion European Economic Recovery Plan, to create jobs and stimulate economic growth in the Euro zone and the UK…’

    WE KNOW OUR PROBLEMS ARE NOT UNIQUE! Did they bother to read our letters in full 👿
    The ‘economic downturn’ has nothing to do with our serious complaints! Nor do we want any sympathy from the FCO! As for Spanish Laws & customs; Spanish Law is not being abided to in Spain on our behalf, and Spanish Customs do not give a licence for criminal actions! Nor are we talking about a handful of individual cases!

    When Our Petition is in front of the Prime Minister, and he at least reads part of its dossier of gross criminal actions, maybe, just maybe, we’ll get some intervention in this scandal, catalogue of abuses & downright theft in many cases. The EU pumping money into Spain ‘to stimulate economic growth’ will be the final insult.

    Thanks to all who have signed Our Petition, and for those who haven’t there is still time. I was up until the very early hours sending & responding to more emails, and finally read through most of the dossier so far. No wonder I’m raging today. Sorry for the rant, but at least the signatures are growing.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

    p.s. In a letter from the FCO September 2007, they stated:
    “We know that we need to continue to exert pressure on the Spanish authorities, and I can assure you that we are prepared to keep doing so”.

  • #89500
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    very well done. keep it up.

  • #89300
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    very well done. keep it up.

  • #89688
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,
    I have signed your petition a bit late in the day, but go get ’em!! Having read the official letter from the FCO, they seem just not to get the scale of the whole sorry mess, nor the impact it is having on ordinary people’s lives. We’re talking about life savings here for many of us.

    sammy

  • #89782
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks for taking the time to add your signature Sammy.

    I agree with you about the FCO, & would love to know how many copies of this letter they’ve had to churn out ❗

    Regards, Suzanne
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #89882
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just want to make clear that although the petition organised by Ruth to the Bank of Spain has closed, the one I’ve been working on is still open for at least a couple more weeks. I’ve been busy sending out press releases, so hopefully this will generate more interest & signatures, which is what we really need now.

    So far, 75% of petitioners in litigation have paid deposits totalling: 13.2 Million Euros on properties which are illegal.
    I’m still adding up their legal fees so far!

    24% of petitioners have discovered they have completed on illegal properties, which they now consider worthless, as they cannot be re-sold & face possible demolition.
    1% are supportive signatures; mostly from the UK, but also Spain, Washington D.C., & New Zealand.

    Thanks to those who have signed so far & shared this information, which I think will add needed impact to our voice.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #89977
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Press Release I’ve been sending out, in an effort to reach more people outside of the forums can be read here:

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/4.html

    Many thanks to Mark for including it in his blog:

    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2009/02/spanish-property-scandal-petition/

  • #90104
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
  • #90106
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Congratulations Suzanne – that’s wonderful publicity.

  • #90108
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    WOW..great. Hope the tabloids pick up on it 🙂

  • #90109
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Fantastic work Suzanne.
    Am sure that all those with property problems here are chuffed at your singlehanded achievement.
    Many congrats.

  • #90174
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for the encouragement amigos. The Press Release I issued was printed in the Costa Blanca News last Friday, and has brought in quite a few more signatures.

    I’ve also been exchanging many emails with an American Journalist who writes for the International Herald Tribune (among other papers), & I really hope he gets something into print. It seems the USA are more interested in Our Petition than the UK papers! Now, I wonder why that is?

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #90264
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
  • #90277
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done Suzanne- I hope something moves forward for you and as a result for others.

    We’d hoped Spain had moved on from these dodgy dealings and it does a lovely country no good at all to still be associated with such poor practice.

    Close to our resort is the Mazarron Country Club which also seems to be enmeshed in problems. This fact demonstrates issues and problems are never far from your door step. I wish you success as Spain needs to move into the 21 century in terms of legalities and customer service.

    On another thread I have been able to be positive about our own experience in Spain and in purchasing a property but its clear from other people who have bought on the same resort all is not always what it seems and ‘there but for the grace of God go Ii’ So I wish you well.
    Bank gaurentees seem to be at the heart of the problem for many people.

  • #90293
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks Janha for the encouraging words.

    As far as bank guarantees go, it seems that those of us who don’t have one now seem to be no worse off than those who do!

    A little more publicity today (with a mention of Polaris World):
    ‘A messy end to our Spanish love affair’ – The writer says ‘This month, a petition will be delivered to Number 10, suggesting that Gordon Brown picks up the phone and talks personally with Spanish Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero about Spanish real estate and the UK investor….’
    😯 I don’t remember mentioning ‘phone calls!
    http://www.citywire.co.uk:80/personal/-/comment/property-and-mortgages/content.aspx?ID=329821

    GB can do far better than pick up the ‘phone. He’s invited José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero to a meeting in London on 2 April. Our Petition will also ask Him to hand over a copy with its full dossier of facts & names etc to Zapatero while he’s here. Perfect timing!

    http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espana/Gordon/Brown/invita/Zapatero/cumbre/G-20/Londres/elpepuesp/20090219elpepunac_16/Tes

  • #90296
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant
  • #90300
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Goodness gracious Suzi you have been very busy. Your keyboard must be red hot from bombarding the media with emails.

    Whatever the outcome, and I truly hope it is successful, you deserve a pat on the back for your efforts and hopefully soon, after your trip to Brussels, you will be able to sit back and take a well deserved rest letting the grass grow under your feet for a while.
    Because YOU deserve it.

  • #90303
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Outstanding and unselfish work Suzanne – Well done and congratulations for your stoic efforts.

  • #90308
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thank you dear Melosine & Peter 😳 but it’s really the efforts of so many people over a long period that has got us this far. And I think it’s just the beginning of lots more hard work & persistence.

    I’m a little anxious about posting details, but am trying to organise some Action in London in April. No prizes for guessing what this is & when, but need to get more info together & advice, in particular from the Met (think this is legally needed). Will be writing to all Petitioners when the logistics etc are sorted, & will be able to post details nearer the time.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

  • #90383
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    http://www.write-about-property.com/articles/spain-property-fraud-victims-petition-downing-street-189.php

    Shame the details of how to sign aren’t included, but people should be able to find us via search etc. There should be an article soon in a major British newspaper.

  • #90694
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    What a great article Suzanne, I have also writeen to the Foreign Secretary about my own personal problems.
    It is about time us UL citizens were looked after and supported by our goverment.
    I think all other embers on here and other sites should join forces to lobby our goverment, and also appoint a first class spanish solicitor to act on all ou behalfs.

  • #90736
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Totally agree Red Devil. I hope that tomorrow will be a big step towards reaching justice.

    Our Petition bears 700 signatures as of this morning, and will be handed in to Downing Street tomorrow. The full wording of the petition letter can be read here:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/7.html

    I’ve tried to cover our problems as succinctly as possible, and only ask action from the Prime Minister that is clearly within his powers. When the petition goes to the EU in Brussels at the end of the month, it will of course be worded differently.

    Many thanks to all who have submitted their experiences & signatures so far. For anyone who still hasn’t signed but keeps thinking about it – sign today & make sure that the British government hears your voice. Our Petition will remain open, as it goes through the EU processes.

    Best regards & thanks, Suzanne

  • #90745
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Is it ok. to sign if you don’t have problems?

  • #90747
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Katy,

    Absolutely! Anyone who is aware of the problems & the effects can sign in support. I’m gradually getting some MEPs to sign it too. Many thanks.

  • #90817
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Aside from all the other issues – illegal builds and so on. I cant understand why the bank gaurentees aren’t issued. It seems crazy to develop a system and then not to adhere to it to such an extent the whole world seems to know that all these developers dont follow the rules and with hold individuals money when a development doesnt pan out in the expected way.

    It seems clear developers use the massive backlog in the Spanish Courts to continue holding onto money and therefore feel under no pressure to have these gaurentees issued. I suppose its also likely this money isnt there anymore until the markets improve and their coffers are abe to swell again, they will have spent up their residual money.

    Its also amazing that Spain would want to be viewed as still so disreputable in this with regard to illegal building. To have such weak enforcement on an aspect of their ecomony that has been so important to the countries infrastructure speaks of an enormous arrogance an ‘if we build, they will come’ attitude. I suppose despite the publicised problems people have still bought but more recently that has been because the problems were percieved to have been deal with. Is it that overall the numbers of people involved in illegal builds and disputes with property develops is considered a low percentage of sales and therefore not given the consideration they are due?

    I very much hope the impact of this petition is sufficient to cause a rethink and some action. I hope Spain can show they dont want to be connected to such poor practice because its true the credit crunch has had a major impact and even when markets improve buyers may start to look elsewhere.

  • #90825
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I hope so too Janha. The Bank Guarantee issue is a huge one. As you say, the Laws are in place regarding BGs but, from my information, so many developers have brazenly ignored their legal duty to provide these, with no apparent action/punishment from the Spanish authorities. Not to mention the banks who refuse to honour legally-binding Bank Guarantees.

    Our Petition reached the front page of the Costa Blanca News on Friday (more next week in other papers); just need to get the British press more interested.
    All went well on Thursday, and it’s really good to note that some MEPs are strongly supporting us
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/7.html

    Many thanks to everyone who has supported this action, and continues to do so.

  • #90826
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’m afraid there is a certain lack of interest from the general public in the UK because it doesnt touch them. I think there’s a sense of ‘thats awful’ when they read about the illegal builds and problems people are having and when people are threatened with having their property knocked down. After that reaction I sense a ‘more fool you’ reaction. Certainly people I have spoken to in the last 5 years as we progressed from an idea to reality ranged from a vague disinterest to an outright ‘why dont you retire in the UK- whats wrong with living in the UK?’ attitude.

    Now, it will be hard to get real interest expressed because so many people are having problems paying their UK bills and have no interest in second home financial difficulties or in people who have chosen to move abroad.

    However, as the real push will come from government pressure and the effect of the credit crunch reducing sales in Spain a pressure group and petition has to be the way to go. I only have our PW experience to go on but its appalling that PW wont repay deposits to individuals after they delay building a section of Condado de Alhama to an unspecified date. As PW also seem to have put their own measure on what consituted the start of a build that too shows what arrogance developers have even in the eye of great criticism. It seems impossible to me that Spain wouldnt want to be regarded as trustworthy in this inmportant area of their financial backbone as they have to move forward and kick start their economy.

    Good luck

  • #90960
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator
  • #90970
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Yes, thanks Katy.

  • #91108
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    http://especiales.diariosur.es/2006/mapa-corrupcion/index.html

    Is it me or does this Map have more dots than before!

    Suzanne , re. your photo in the NY Times…did any of the UK press feature it?

  • #91115
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I expect it will get even spottier! Great map for those who insist the property corruption problems are only on the Costas.

    No Katy, nothing in the UK.

  • #91120
    Profile photo of Inez
    Inez
    Participant

    You were front page of the Costa del Sol news last week. Hopefully that would have helped raise the profile a bit here at least.

  • #91130
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Just off to Brussels, & have been given a 5-minute window in the PC Meeting next week, so promise to do my very best.

    792 signatures to date.

  • #91131
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    All power to your elbow, Suzanne! I’m sure you’ll be just fine. Well done.

    roots

  • #91133
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    All the best for this coming week Suzanne. Well done you!

  • #91326
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    All went well in Brussels, and I have to say that all the EU officials & MEPs I met were extremely helpful and welcoming, and individually spent some time also with me discussing the many serious issues. On the heels of the Auken Report our Petition has been described as “A Red Rag to a Bull”, no doubt referring to the Spanish parliamentarians who continue to be in denial.

    Hopefully the Special Fund that Our Petition requests, taken from EU funding to Spain, will help bring justice – for many this may be the only way. But the pressure must be kept up.
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/4.html

    Our Petition remains open for signatures/experiences.

    Regards, Suzanne

  • #93525
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    It’s good to report that Our Petition has been accepted as ‘admissable’ by the EU Petitions Committee in Brussels, and has been registered. The EU PC has asked the EU Commission to start an initial investigation into the issues regarding Bank Guarantees & reimbursement. There is apparently new legislature, & I’m waiting for more details. Many more issues to be dealt with, but this is a very good start.

    I’m also awaiting an update from the Law Society in England, who have agreed to address the Consejo General de la Abogacia Espanola regarding the information I’ve passed on to them & complaints re lawyers.

    Our Petition remains open, & I’m updating the EU with all new signatures & comments.

  • #93528
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “I’m also awaiting an update from the Law Society in England, who have agreed to address the Consejo General de la Abogacia Espanola regarding the information I’ve passed on to them & complaints re lawyers”.

    This is particularly good news, and am very interested to see what results may come from this.
    Well done again Suzanne, your energy and all that you have achieved is admirable! It’s been a long haul for you to reach this point.

  • #93911
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I sent an open letter to Gordon Brown (19 Aug) as follows:

    The Spanish Property Scandal Petition, handed in at Downing Street on 12 March 2009 has to date received one short response from your office; that the petition is ‘noted’ and has been passed to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for any comments they ‘may’ have. There has been no response from the FCO since submitting our petition.

    With respect Sir, the petition is addressed to you, not the FCO. We have asked for your direct attention, as our Prime Minister, to the issues detailed and to raise them with the Spanish Prime Minister. Can you please tell us what action has been taken. It is difficult to understand how you could have read the petition or even glanced at its accompanying weighty dossier, and allow a response from your office which comes across to petitioners as being, to say the very least, dismissive. You may be interested to read just a few of their comments:

    ‘The failure of the British Government to address any of the comments from nearly 1,000 petitioners is wholly unacceptable.’

    ‘Thousands of taxpaying EU citizens (mainly elderly British) have been unlawfully robbed of their life savings totalling billions of pounds/euros. The legal system in Spain is ridiculously slow and enforcement of judgements is inadequate, thus enabling the fraudsters to laugh at the law with impunity. It is unacceptable that the British Government is doing nothing to force this unjust and intolerable situation to be rectified urgently.’

    ‘A petition with so many signatures – HOW CAN THIS BE IGNORED? There should be legislation in place to make sure all items put before our Government are properly answered.’

    ‘We have paid our contributions all our working lives & regardless of where we choose to live in the EC our governments have a moral duty to look after us. It may be that up to 100,000 people may have no alternative but to return to the U.K. None of us want to be a burden on anyone.’

    ‘This tardy response from Downing Street does not surprise me. I don’t think there is enough votes in this for the government to trouble themselves, they are not interested in the ‘little people’.’

    Petitioners note the British Government’s response to the petitions submitted regarding similar property-related problems in Goa, and also Cyprus. We also note the interest and detailed reply given by the British Government to a petition concerning Sandbag and Hesco, a dog and cat in Iraq, and I insist that each one of our petitioners warrant equal, if not more attention. Your reply Sir, which will be made available to all petitioners, is awaited.
    Signed


    British Government response to above mentioned petitions can be read here:
    Goa:
    http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20337
    http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page19848

    Sandbag & Hesco:
    http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20246

  • #93912
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done suzanne,
    Perhaps you will get a reply this time that goes somewhere near to understanding the situation that many of us find ourselves in.
    You have to understand that our politicians are having a tough time at present.
    Trying to balance household bills out of their salary, their children forced to find proper jobs and pay their own way in the world and many relatives having to fund their own mortgage bills.
    Is it any wonder that they feel their spanish counter parts have no case to answer.

  • #93913
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done suzanne,
    Perhaps you will get a reply this time that goes somewhere near to understanding the situation that many of us find ourselves in.
    You have to understand that our politicians are having a tough time at present.
    Trying to balance household bills out of their salary, their children forced to find proper jobs and pay their own way in the world and many relatives having to fund their own mortgage bills.
    Is it any wonder that they feel their spanish counter parts have no case to answer.

  • #93924
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Vilprano,
    I agree. And there will always be some emergency that needs their ‘fullest attention’. High time it was ours!
    Let’s hope the reply from No.10 will be worth reading this time. Will keep you posted.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk/9.html

  • #93933
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,
    If you need these parasites to look at any thing you need to use the magic word “terrorism” and how our so called Allies, the Americans can be affected by it.

    Your creative skills should bring a slant towards terrorism. If the Icelandic /Governments can be charged for banking failures under terrorism, than I do not see why, Spain cannot be ?? Lets face it apart from the human cost all this has perhaps done more damage to Spains economy than ETA would have ever done.

    I see 100,000, who have lost their dreams, life time savings and led to living like gypsies in garages, others living in fear/limbo not knowing if their properties are going to be demolished. Is this not a terrorism. ?????

  • #93937
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Shakeel, I see your point. On a practical level I think that those living in properties where there is no mains electricity would particularly agree. There are certain urbanizations plagued with burglaries & are especially targeted. The local councils seem to be oblivious to these issues, saying these people should not be living there, but of course demand all their local taxes.

    Listening to the news today about the row over the Lockerbie bomber & the lack of comment by Gordon Brown emphasizes the battles we are up against. Although it’s a very different issue, I know, it does seem that the British Government’s unwilliness to confront other government’s actions/decisions is really down to not wanting to rock the boat or damage future relations. I may be wrong but it seems to me that this is the attitude we are faced with. No political confrontation: no political action.

    We shall see what response there is to the Open Letter.

  • #93939
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,
    It may be advisable to copy your open letter to Nick Clegg the leader of the Liberal democrats who had a tremendous result with the Ghurka solution.
    Perhaps he can remind dear “nice but dim” Gordon at question time that a large number of british subjects are being systematically robbed of their life savings.

    Keep up the good work

  • #93940
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,
    It may be advisable to copy your open letter to Nick Clegg the leader of the Liberal democrats who had a tremendous result with the Ghurka solution.
    Perhaps he can remind dear “nice but dim” Gordon at question time that a large number of british subjects are being systematically robbed of their life savings.

    Keep up the good work

  • #93941
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,
    It may be advisable to copy your open letter to Nick Clegg the leader of the Liberal democrats who had a tremendous result with the Ghurka solution.
    Perhaps he can remind dear “nice but dim” Gordon at question time that a large number of british subjects are being systematically robbed of their life savings.

    Keep up the good work

  • #93944
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,
    I do not wish to hijack your tremendous & resilient efforts. However Mr Brown has always ducked away from challenging issues.

    The Lockerbie bomber, if he is guilty ! I have serious doubts, as no one person could have carried out such a deed and further the Scotts would not have released him without English/England involved in the process.

    His appeal would have opened a can of worms and in order not to upset the Americans the buck has been passed onto the Scotts.

    The situation that we have in Spain. It should be Spain who should have been acting in not upsetting the Brits/English. As we seriouly contribute to the Spanish GDP.

  • #93951
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I’ve written to Nick Clegg & other MPs. Thanks for the reminder Vilprano. Interestingly, as you probably know, his wife Miriam is Spanish. She is also a lawyer. Not sure if that’s good news or bad news.
    Nevertheless, Full Steam Ahead!

  • #94895
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    At last!
    On 28 October the following four questions were tabled at the House of Lords:

    HL6107: … to ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report prepared by Margrete Auken MEP, dated 20 February, on the impact of extensive urbanisation in Spain on individual rights of European citizens; and whether they have raised the matter with the Prime Minister of Spain.

    HL6108: … to ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they have taken in response to the petition delivered to No. 10 Downing Street on 12 March by Suzanne Wyatt concerning United Kingdom citizens who have bought, or attempted to buy, property in Spain; and whether they have raised the matter with the government of Spain.

    HL6109: … to ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will make representations to the government of Spain about the level of compensation paid to United Kingdom citizens for properties nationalised under the Ley de Costas.

    HL6110: … to ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the number of properties owned by United Kingdom citizens in Spain which may be demolished following the revocation of planning permission, in the light of assurances given to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on his recent visit to Madrid that no, or very few, properties owned by United Kingdom citizens would be demolished.

    This is a positive stepping stone forward, and gives all of us with serious problems as regards to the Spanish Property Scandal warranted recognition by the House of Lords.

  • #94896
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done Suzanne, this has taken a great deal of effort which is greatly appreciated by many of us who have had their life savings wiped out by corruption.
    More power to your elbow and once again my hearty congratulations.
    vilprano

  • #94906
    Profile photo of Melosine
    Melosine
    Participant

    Brilliant Suzanne.
    You must be mentally and physically exhausted but not I hope financially drained by the constant work you are applying here in order to get these problems noticed.
    Hopefully those you are singlehandly fighting for are also impressed by your efforts.
    They certainly should be.

  • #94907
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne – this huge oak tree of an achievement all started one (probably rainy) Friday back in May 2007 when you planted this little acorn:

    A PETITION NEEDS TO BE COMPILED & PRESENTED TO THE GOVERNMENT.
    The best way I can think of at present is this, if you all agree:

    Send me a PM with your name, Location, name of development & DEVELOPER, & current situation, eg. no LFO, No Bank Guarantee, Severe Breach of Contract etc……..

    I will then compile your PMs into one document……

    My goodness, and what a journey since then! I know reaching this point has taken up a huge part of your life, requiring literally hundreds of hours of work on the petition you started, letter-writing, etc. You have helped bring Spain’s problem to the noses of some of the highest in the land. Let’s hope they now have the backbone and wherewithall to actually do something constructive.
    (Maybe we need a few conkers to drop on some heads to concentrate their minds – whenever I’ve seen the Lords on tv, half of them are asleep!)

    Congratulations Suzanne on your achievements so far, I look forward to further updates.

  • #94911
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Well done Suzanne 😀 A good result after all the work you have done.

  • #94923
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    ¿what is the result?

  • #94925
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Thanks for all the supportive comments, they’re really appreciated. But I must stress that several have played a part in getting these HL questions tabled, with a pooling of info & contacts, so huge thanks to them.

    I’ve slightly edited Our Petition & now addressed it to Prime Minister Zapatero. A copy will also be sent to the King of Spain, together with the full dossier & Lawyer Complaints Document. I’ve had it translated into Spanish, so no excuses there. The general advice is not to hold our breaths for a response on this one, but it is timed to be presented when a major article appears in the Spanish press – hopefully at the end of this week. Will post details when this is definite as it’s been postponed several times.

    Ubeda – I presume you must be asking about the ‘result’ of the House of Lords Questions. But it’s far too early for that.

  • #94940
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    well done you. Let’s hope this is the start of some sort of justice?. Many of us feel we have taken our cases as far as we can, and even though we have won our cases in Spanish courts are still left with nothing due to the the hopeless situation regarding regulation and justice. Your efforts will highlight these wrongs amongst the many other wrongs. Let’s hope someone who does give a damn will put in a fraction of the effort that you have, to change the system that has let so many down. Thanks from all of us treated so badly.

  • #94946
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,

    Thank you for all your hard work over such a long time to get these problems recognised. This is a wonderful step forward.

    Tilly

  • #94956
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Well done Suzanne,

    All credit to you and your hard work. I don’t know how you manage it.

    Best wishes,

    Fran

  • #94971
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Many thanks again & it’s really good to hear from ‘old faithfuls’ (hope you don’t mind that!).

    The HL questions are usually responded to within 14 days, unless they are particularly ‘sensitive’. I suspect ours are very sensitive indeed. Will let you know as soon as I hear anything.

  • #94972
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne,

    A big thanks for all your effort , just to let you know you are appreciated. Just remember offer still stands, if I can do anything.

    🙂

  • #94987
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hello Axwhale 🙂 I haven’t forgotten – many thanks.

  • #95067
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Suzanne

    I see from an article in the Scotsman that a petition was presented in Madrid http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/world/Justice-plea-by-Britons-caught.5801165.jp on 6 November. As you are quoted in the article may I ask was it the SPSP that was presented, or a different one? I’m also curious to know to whom it was presented. The journalist just writes ‘Madrid’. Not very helpful!

    You’ve done a marathon job, Suzanne, and all power to your elbow.

    roots

  • #95068
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Suzanne – sorry if I’m being confusing now. I see from your earlier posting that you intend to send the SPSP to various people in Spain. I was wishing that the journalist from the Scotsman had clarified the name of the petition and precisely who was the recipient.

    The SPSP is still collecting names and yet, even now, some are not aware of it. It needs all the publicity you, and the rest of us, can get!

    roots

  • #95069
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Dear Roots,

    Yes, it is Our Petition. Unfortunately the editor took out all references to the website & where it was coming from. I’ve also been misquoted. As you say, not much help to anyone, particularly if they’re affected & would like to make contact. The Petition hasn’t actually been presented yet – but should be by Monday. All has been especially timed to coincide with a major article in the Spanish press, hopefully out this weekend. But this has been postponed several times so I’ve been cautious in saying much about this – should be confirmed Thursday though, so will post as & when.

    I’ve slightly edited the Petition so that it is now addressed to Prime Minister Zapatero, and had it translated into Spanish. He’ll be getting the whole dossier together with the Lawyer Complaints Document. The King of Spain will also be getting a copy of the whole caboodle; 1,041 signatures to date over 240 pages. I’ve been told neither of them will take any notice of it, but hopefully an article in the Spanish press too might make a difference – who knows, but it was another avenue to take.

    Really glad you’re still fighting this with us Roots.
    All the best, Suzanne
    p.s. missed your last post while doing this one – I just can’t keep up! 🙂

  • #95070
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    So sorry – I’m repeating myself

  • #95209
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The FT article that’s been pending for quite a while will be printed in Friday’s edition of Investors Chronicle. It can be read here:
    http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/InvestmentGuides/Property/article/20091123/b7ffde06-d823-11de-99a4-00144f2af8e8/The-pain-in-Spain.jsp

  • #95215
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Excellent article, unfortunate that the opportunity to advertise property purchase had to be included by the editor immediately below and with the emphasis on ‘buyer beware’. This particular point is all very well except when everyone from the developer to legal advisor could be corrupt- how on earth can a purchaser truly protect themselves? This sort of financial outlay shouldn’t have to rely on luck!

  • #95318
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Letter received this morning from Juan Carlos I King of Spain’s office, initially confirming receipt of Our Petition & full dossier. Nothing from P.M. Zapatero’s office to date.

  • #97471
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Apologies for the delay in up-dating this thread.

    Letter received from P.M. Zapatero’s office, dated 26 January 2010. He acknowledges receipt of Our Petition & accompanying dossier & basically states that the Spanish government cannot intervene in matters currently going through the Spanish legal system, & that our problems need to be solved via this route. However, the Petition & information sent has been copied to the Spanish Minister for Housing for his ‘conocimiento’.

    To be honest I didn’t think we’d get a response, so this is good.

    Work continues with Brussels, with particular regard to the lawyers the majority of us had initially engaged.

    Just a word about the many websites springing up with the words ‘Spanish Property Scandal…’, claiming to be able to retrieve monies from developers & Bank Guarantees etc. Many are also quoting from Our Petition & connected News articles in an effort to gain the trust & finances from many no doubt 😡
    None of these have anything to do with me or Our Petition. I am only connected with:
    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

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