2009 commitment

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This topic contains 74 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Anonymous Anonymous 7 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #54622
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    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Leicester Mercury is running stories about unsuccessful property purchases in Spain and is looking for more. It began before Christmas with a story about two Leicester City footballers and a cricketer who for differing reasons have been unable to complete. If like me you live in Leicestershire and have a story to tell please contact gemmapeplow@leicestermercury.co.uk
    Thanks
    roots

    http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/City-legends-battle-cash/article-566707-detail/article.html

  • #89039
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The Open Letter to the Commissioners, Ministers, UK MEPs etc was sent yesterday morning. I’ve tried without success to put a copy on this thread but Computer says No for some unexplained reason – not even daughter can help with this one.

    I was able, however, to put it on Eye on Spain and will continue to try to get it on here.

    Any support you can give will I believe be extremely helpful. Just don’t let up this month, folks. Thanks
    roots

    From my original posting:

    I would like to throw some ideas into the ring and for now I want to suggest some specific actions that could be taken. I would like to ask you to think about doing one or all of the following:

    a) if you have not already sent a petition of your own to the Petitions Committee in the EP that you do that asap. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/peti_home_en.htm
    b) write to ALL the MEPs in your area – this would support my blanket mailing – and to your MP to make them aware of your situation. Only one letter needs to be written and that copied to them all. Those of you who have done this in the past please send a follow-up letter to update them (and not let them off the hook). http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/MembersMain.htm
    c) visit your MP at his/her next surgery and ask them to support you in an individual protest letter – look them firmly in the eye. We put them there to do this kind of thing for us!
    d) write to the Spanish Ombudsman. http://www.defensordelpueblo.es/web_ingles/home2.asp
    e) write to the Spanish Bar Association. Ilustre Colegio de Abogados (branches in each province) or directly to the President of the CGPJ – Consejo General del Poder Judicial (The General Council of the Judiciary)
    http://www.poderjudicial.es/
    f) write to or ring your local newspaper and get a story printed. Don’t be shy.
    g) make sure you have signed the Spanish Property Scandal Petition http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk and, where it’s appropriate, the petition to the Governor of the Bank of Spain. http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees.html
    h) attend protests where it’s physically possible to do and cheer on by email where you can’t.

    I’m sure you have more ideas and suggestions that you can make so lets put our heads together so that we can bang the drum and make as much noise as possible.
    We need a flood of mail and a tide of publicity.
    We need to keep up the pressure.
    We need to stand by each other.

  • #89167
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Another possible way to support the January Actions?

    Last week there were articles in both the Telegraph

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/4213997/British-expatriates-march-in-Spain-to-protest-against-chaotic-planning-laws.html

    and the Observer

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/jan/11/spain-property-abroad-expats

    about the actions in Spain.

    If you want to help, and in an effort to keep the campaigns in the public eye, letters to the Editors of these newspapers could be written in response to these articles. It won’t take you long – just a few lines, short and to-the-point, – but we might get something published again that way. It’s worth a try. And one way of supporting Suzanne’s and my efforts would be if, when you write, you mention one or other or both of the two petitions. We need to let people outside the Forums know about them.

    http://www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk
    http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/spanishbankguarantees/signatures.html

    Letters to the Telegraph dtletters@telegraph.co.uk (Daily Telegraph) or stletters@telegraph.co.uk (Sunday Telegraph). Please include name, address, and work and home telephone numbers.

    Letters to the Observer: letters@observer.co.uk

    TIA – Thanks in advance.

    roots

  • #89168
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    There was also another article in Sunday Express (11th Jan):
    http://dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/79346

    Norman Baker MP has involved himself in this. I wrote to him yesterday with all my contact details, and will post his response here. Hopefully I’ll get one. His details:
    http://www.normanbaker.org.uk/contact.htm

  • #89454
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Anyone thinking of writing about the poor responses from the Colegio, or complaints about lawyers in general, could write to the President of the General Council of the Judiciary (CGPJ), Spain’s top judicial watchdog.

    See http://www.llrx.com/features/spain.htm#judicial
    2.1.3. Judicial Power

    and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Council_of_the_Judicial_Power_of_Spain#External_links

    An article (El Pais) published in May of last year showing the kind of things this organisation gets involved in is here:

    http://www.expatica.com/es/news/local_news/Minister-denies-Spanish-justice-system-is-in-crisis-.html

    I’m sure other references can be Googled .

    The President of the CGPJ is also the President of the Supreme Court. If I’m right his name is Francisco Jose Hernando but this needs checking with a lawyer or someone else who knows.

    roots

  • #89254
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Anyone thinking of writing about the poor responses from the Colegio, or complaints about lawyers in general, could write to the President of the General Council of the Judiciary (CGPJ), Spain’s top judicial watchdog.

    See http://www.llrx.com/features/spain.htm#judicial
    2.1.3. Judicial Power

    and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Council_of_the_Judicial_Power_of_Spain#External_links

    An article (El Pais) published in May of last year showing the kind of things this organisation gets involved in is here:

    http://www.expatica.com/es/news/local_news/Minister-denies-Spanish-justice-system-is-in-crisis-.html

    I’m sure other references can be Googled .

    The President of the CGPJ is also the President of the Supreme Court. If I’m right his name is Francisco Jose Hernando but this needs checking with a lawyer or someone else who knows.

    roots

  • #89464
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots, as I posted many times that in Spain laws that passed are only to be binded in leather and placed in a library.

    The system is not interested in it, neither by the spirit of the law nor its enforcement, implementation etc. The judiciary has no urge or desire to be held in high esteem by its citizen or humanity at large.

  • #89264
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots, as I posted many times that in Spain laws that passed are only to be binded in leather and placed in a library.

    The system is not interested in it, neither by the spirit of the law nor its enforcement, implementation etc. The judiciary has no urge or desire to be held in high esteem by its citizen or humanity at large.

  • #89466
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    shakeel

    you may be right, but until someone comes up with a better idea, i think we should all get well and truly behind roots’s efforts as the best chance we have at present.

  • #89266
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    shakeel

    you may be right, but until someone comes up with a better idea, i think we should all get well and truly behind roots’s efforts as the best chance we have at present.

  • #89468
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I hear what you say Shakeel, and I agree – but I’m working to make that a thing of the past.

    Unless we say what we want, saying it loudly and clearly and going on saying it, NOTHING will be heard. This is why I want to take my concerns and those of others to the top with as much publicity as I can muster.

    Rome was not built in a day and neither will the property problems be solved in a day. Campaigning is both tiring and tiresome – but it can be immensely rewarding. Believe me.

    roots

  • #89268
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I hear what you say Shakeel, and I agree – but I’m working to make that a thing of the past.

    Unless we say what we want, saying it loudly and clearly and going on saying it, NOTHING will be heard. This is why I want to take my concerns and those of others to the top with as much publicity as I can muster.

    Rome was not built in a day and neither will the property problems be solved in a day. Campaigning is both tiring and tiresome – but it can be immensely rewarding. Believe me.

    roots

  • #89469
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    goodstich – thanks 🙂

  • #89269
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    goodstich – thanks 🙂

  • #89473
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Another vital link here for those concerned about what has been going on.

    http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=37483&SESSION=899

    We should write to our MP to support this motion if we have had any problems with this company.

  • #89273
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Another vital link here for those concerned about what has been going on.

    http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=37483&SESSION=899

    We should write to our MP to support this motion if we have had any problems with this company.

  • #89477
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots & Goodstich44. I agree with your comments, sentiments & the resolve for the future vision.

    I also know that you are well aware of the situation along with the majority of the long established forum users.

    The new users may not be aware of the facade that Spain has created for itself which is akin to a very well presented sales brochure only to be short changed later. I call it deception in my language.

  • #89277
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots & Goodstich44. I agree with your comments, sentiments & the resolve for the future vision.

    I also know that you are well aware of the situation along with the majority of the long established forum users.

    The new users may not be aware of the facade that Spain has created for itself which is akin to a very well presented sales brochure only to be short changed later. I call it deception in my language.

  • #89516
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I am someone who was for a number of years involved in the property business in Spain. I also was the administrator of a Junta de Compensacion, being the vehicle by which we developed urbanisations.
    I have very long experience if dealing with the legal system and the mind set of Spanish lawyers and politicians of all colour.
    I advise you and your supporters that you will eventually become demoralised, frustrated and ultimately give up your no doubt worthy struggle for justice. That’s because justice in Spain is not the same as anywhere else in Europe.
    The reason is that Spanish society, in all its many facets is utterly corrupt. Corruption is not regarded in Spain as bad by most Spanish, more a normal state of affairs and the only natural way of doing business. There are sound cultural and historical reasons for this and foreigners have no right to tell the Spanish how to conduct their own affairs. Not my opinion alone but that of your average Spaniard.
    Your campaigns and public spirited actions will lead you up blind allies and Kafkaesque situations from where there is no return.
    Lip service will you be given in shed loads and nowhere will you get.
    Spain is another country. Not Britain or regulated, supervised and policed countries such as France and Germany. It was for a while a good place to make money and get out whilst the going was good. You soon learned that when things go wrong they stay wrong. Most people lose when investing in property abroad without a lot of knowledge and experience of the country. It really is akin to the Wild West.
    Your first loss is always the cheapest. Do not throw good money after bad chasing an idealistic dream which is I am afraid doomed to fail.

  • #89316
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I am someone who was for a number of years involved in the property business in Spain. I also was the administrator of a Junta de Compensacion, being the vehicle by which we developed urbanisations.
    I have very long experience if dealing with the legal system and the mind set of Spanish lawyers and politicians of all colour.
    I advise you and your supporters that you will eventually become demoralised, frustrated and ultimately give up your no doubt worthy struggle for justice. That’s because justice in Spain is not the same as anywhere else in Europe.
    The reason is that Spanish society, in all its many facets is utterly corrupt. Corruption is not regarded in Spain as bad by most Spanish, more a normal state of affairs and the only natural way of doing business. There are sound cultural and historical reasons for this and foreigners have no right to tell the Spanish how to conduct their own affairs. Not my opinion alone but that of your average Spaniard.
    Your campaigns and public spirited actions will lead you up blind allies and Kafkaesque situations from where there is no return.
    Lip service will you be given in shed loads and nowhere will you get.
    Spain is another country. Not Britain or regulated, supervised and policed countries such as France and Germany. It was for a while a good place to make money and get out whilst the going was good. You soon learned that when things go wrong they stay wrong. Most people lose when investing in property abroad without a lot of knowledge and experience of the country. It really is akin to the Wild West.
    Your first loss is always the cheapest. Do not throw good money after bad chasing an idealistic dream which is I am afraid doomed to fail.

  • #89523
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    SO LOGAN, WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON, OR NEED I ASK.

  • #89323
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    SO LOGAN, WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON, OR NEED I ASK.

  • #89527
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    ….. and foreigners have no right to tell the Spanish how to conduct their own affairs.

    Let me explain something to you.
    Whether some Spaniards (and you) like it or not, Spain is a member of the EU and subsequently enjoys all the grants/handouts/benefits that belonging to this ‘club’ entails.
    It therefore should be adhering to honouring the rights/laws that being a member entails. The EU for example has ruled that their Land Grab laws goes against basic human rights.

    Consequently we certainly do have the right to comment on how they conduct they affairs and if they don’t like it – tough. It’s about time they realise they can’t have their cake and eat it.
    Foreigners may be learning that the Spanish conduct their affairs like a third world corrupt country, but they certainly have “the right” to expect/demand that Spain, as a EU member, will not behave in this way.
    Franco was a long time ago and it’s about time they (and others like you) grew up and stopped using this old excuse/reason for their behaviour.

    “It was for a while a good place to make money and get out whilst the going was good”.
    It seems clear from what angle you view property buying in Spain.
    Do you have a view from your misguided soapbox on the Prior’s situation in Vera?

  • #89327
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    ….. and foreigners have no right to tell the Spanish how to conduct their own affairs.

    Let me explain something to you.
    Whether some Spaniards (and you) like it or not, Spain is a member of the EU and subsequently enjoys all the grants/handouts/benefits that belonging to this ‘club’ entails.
    It therefore should be adhering to honouring the rights/laws that being a member entails. The EU for example has ruled that their Land Grab laws goes against basic human rights.

    Consequently we certainly do have the right to comment on how they conduct they affairs and if they don’t like it – tough. It’s about time they realise they can’t have their cake and eat it.
    Foreigners may be learning that the Spanish conduct their affairs like a third world corrupt country, but they certainly have “the right” to expect/demand that Spain, as a EU member, will not behave in this way.
    Franco was a long time ago and it’s about time they (and others like you) grew up and stopped using this old excuse/reason for their behaviour.

    “It was for a while a good place to make money and get out whilst the going was good”.
    It seems clear from what angle you view property buying in Spain.
    Do you have a view from your misguided soapbox on the Prior’s situation in Vera?

  • #89528
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Like Logans post or not, (and I found it abhorrent) he/she is probably spot on as regards nothing will change. There are enough of us on the “corruption rampage” but I can’t see much change happening. Sure, people are more informed about the corruption than several years ago, but we don’t seem to be achieving much to make a radical difference.
    In the Observer article roots made reference to in an earlier post, it stated that MP’s MEP’s and various other political bodies could to nothing to help. So who can?
    (Sorry to be so negative… hangover from blue Monday yesterday 😉 )

  • #89328
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Like Logans post or not, (and I found it abhorrent) he/she is probably spot on as regards nothing will change. There are enough of us on the “corruption rampage” but I can’t see much change happening. Sure, people are more informed about the corruption than several years ago, but we don’t seem to be achieving much to make a radical difference.
    In the Observer article roots made reference to in an earlier post, it stated that MP’s MEP’s and various other political bodies could to nothing to help. So who can?
    (Sorry to be so negative… hangover from blue Monday yesterday 😉 )

  • #89529
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree Claire that actually seeing any change in the near future is probably wishful thinking.

    I was purely commenting on Logan’s misguided statement of “….. and foreigners have no right to tell the Spanish how to conduct their own affairs”.

    Re. your ‘blue Monday’ hangover – try a pint of freshly-squeezed orange juice, a bar of chocolate and a good video – works wonders for the body and soul! 😉

  • #89329
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    I agree Claire that actually seeing any change in the near future is probably wishful thinking.

    I was purely commenting on Logan’s misguided statement of “….. and foreigners have no right to tell the Spanish how to conduct their own affairs”.

    Re. your ‘blue Monday’ hangover – try a pint of freshly-squeezed orange juice, a bar of chocolate and a good video – works wonders for the body and soul! 😉

  • #89535
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Mmmm…

    And I thought I heard – in fact I did hear – it wasn’t the word ‘sanctions’ but it was close…

    “And she [Margrete Auken] also reminds the Spanish authorities that the EU can turn off the funding tap.”

    http://www.costa-news.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1658&Itemid=1

    and
    http://www.costa-news.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1844&Itemid=1

    Watch this space!

    And one result, with a promise of things to come maybe…
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2009/01/court-orders-developer-of-santa-maria-green-hills-to-return-stage-payments/

    Who knows?

    Martin Luther King had a dream. John Lennon said ‘Imagine’.
    Nothing can be done that is done without both of those elements.
    Today is the inauguration of Barack Obama.

    Keep on trucking!
    roots

  • #89335
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Mmmm…

    And I thought I heard – in fact I did hear – it wasn’t the word ‘sanctions’ but it was close…

    “And she [Margrete Auken] also reminds the Spanish authorities that the EU can turn off the funding tap.”

    http://www.costa-news.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1658&Itemid=1

    and
    http://www.costa-news.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1844&Itemid=1

    Watch this space!

    And one result, with a promise of things to come maybe…
    http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/buff/2009/01/court-orders-developer-of-santa-maria-green-hills-to-return-stage-payments/

    Who knows?

    Martin Luther King had a dream. John Lennon said ‘Imagine’.
    Nothing can be done that is done without both of those elements.
    Today is the inauguration of Barack Obama.

    Keep on trucking!
    roots

  • #89536
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi
    I found Logans post as a complete fact of the situation.
    Like it or not thats how it is.
    I felt that Charlies response was also spot on.
    Thankfully even a growing numbers in Spain know that changes have to be made.
    Spain will have to hit rock bottom try to pick up the bits and start to rebuild from the foundations up.
    They have and will lose complete trust and without that they have nothing

    Just Frank 8)

  • #89336
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi
    I found Logans post as a complete fact of the situation.
    Like it or not thats how it is.
    I felt that Charlies response was also spot on.
    Thankfully even a growing numbers in Spain know that changes have to be made.
    Spain will have to hit rock bottom try to pick up the bits and start to rebuild from the foundations up.
    They have and will lose complete trust and without that they have nothing

    Just Frank 8)

  • #89537
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots, since Michael Cashman’s very first visit to the Valencia region a couple of years ago, great strides have been taken and this is definitely the closest the EU has got to ‘squeezing Spain’s tomatoes’ over our rights.

    Am sure none of this would be happening if it wasn’t for the energies and determination of the public as against the lack of energies and determination of most of our so-called political representatives.

    Let’s hope the likes of the Spanish Euro MP for the Partido Popular, José Manuel García Margallo who said he “feels sorry for those affected, but the European Union has no responsibility for town planning and these are questions which have to be resolved in Spain” will finally be made to keep quiet.

    With unemployment predicted to be around 18% by next year, Spain should be putting out the welcome mat to anyone wanting to invest in their country – not tying them up in corrupt court cases and demolishing their homes.

    The sickening thing is those who made millions from all the property corruption will comfortably ride out the coming storm.
    They probably have a picture of Franco hanging in their living room and every day sing “I did it my way” while toasting him with a wink and a glass of vino.

  • #89337
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Roots, since Michael Cashman’s very first visit to the Valencia region a couple of years ago, great strides have been taken and this is definitely the closest the EU has got to ‘squeezing Spain’s tomatoes’ over our rights.

    Am sure none of this would be happening if it wasn’t for the energies and determination of the public as against the lack of energies and determination of most of our so-called political representatives.

    Let’s hope the likes of the Spanish Euro MP for the Partido Popular, José Manuel García Margallo who said he “feels sorry for those affected, but the European Union has no responsibility for town planning and these are questions which have to be resolved in Spain” will finally be made to keep quiet.

    With unemployment predicted to be around 18% by next year, Spain should be putting out the welcome mat to anyone wanting to invest in their country – not tying them up in corrupt court cases and demolishing their homes.

    The sickening thing is those who made millions from all the property corruption will comfortably ride out the coming storm.
    They probably have a picture of Franco hanging in their living room and every day sing “I did it my way” while toasting him with a wink and a glass of vino.

  • #89538
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    I felt that Charlies response was also spot on.

    Way to go Frank – I know how hard it is to keep these New Year resolutions. 😉

  • #89338
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Just Frank wrote:

    I felt that Charlies response was also spot on.

    Way to go Frank – I know how hard it is to keep these New Year resolutions. 😉

  • #89540
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie
    Resolutions the same as last year and the one before.
    Try to keep things in perspective.

    Listen to Charlie. 😉

    Just Frank 😉

  • #89340
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Charlie
    Resolutions the same as last year and the one before.
    Try to keep things in perspective.

    Listen to Charlie. 😉

    Just Frank 😉

  • #89371
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @alanrthornton wrote:

    SO LOGAN, WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON, OR NEED I ASK.

    My post was not expressing support for the corrupt system in Spain. I was simply pointing out a few realities.
    In business it is realities you have to deal with. Idealism has a place but not if you want to survive in business. Remember it’s business that employs people and creates wealth and income for governments to redistribute.
    In the conflict between idealism and pragmatism the latter usually succeeds.
    If you expect some salvation from the European Union I believe you will be very disappointed.
    The EU is simply a collection of sovereign nations trading with each other. Despite the efforts and propaganda of the federalists. Spain remains sovereign. Their cultural identity is consistently authentic and alive. The positive and negative values which have led to the corrupt practices within the political/ legal/business establishment are all part of the countries nature and character. For better or worse.
    I do not say that this state of affairs should remain. More that the Spanish people are the folks whose responsibility it is to force through change. Not foreigners be they from the EU or not.
    Nothing gets up the Spanish, French, Italian, and British nose more than a foreigner telling the people how they should behave.
    I believe apart from anything else it’s bad manners.
    How the name of Franco cropped up here is a mystery apart from seeking a historical source for behaviour and yes his legacy still persists.
    However please do not confuse the ability and ambition to make money as anything but a positive way to live your life. Not greed or exploitation. That in my opinion is the language of envy.

  • #89571
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @alanrthornton wrote:

    SO LOGAN, WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON, OR NEED I ASK.

    My post was not expressing support for the corrupt system in Spain. I was simply pointing out a few realities.
    In business it is realities you have to deal with. Idealism has a place but not if you want to survive in business. Remember it’s business that employs people and creates wealth and income for governments to redistribute.
    In the conflict between idealism and pragmatism the latter usually succeeds.
    If you expect some salvation from the European Union I believe you will be very disappointed.
    The EU is simply a collection of sovereign nations trading with each other. Despite the efforts and propaganda of the federalists. Spain remains sovereign. Their cultural identity is consistently authentic and alive. The positive and negative values which have led to the corrupt practices within the political/ legal/business establishment are all part of the countries nature and character. For better or worse.
    I do not say that this state of affairs should remain. More that the Spanish people are the folks whose responsibility it is to force through change. Not foreigners be they from the EU or not.
    Nothing gets up the Spanish, French, Italian, and British nose more than a foreigner telling the people how they should behave.
    I believe apart from anything else it’s bad manners.
    How the name of Franco cropped up here is a mystery apart from seeking a historical source for behaviour and yes his legacy still persists.
    However please do not confuse the ability and ambition to make money as anything but a positive way to live your life. Not greed or exploitation. That in my opinion is the language of envy.

  • #89374
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    How the name of Franco cropped up here is a mystery apart from seeking a historical source for behaviour and yes his legacy still persists.

    No mystery, you got it in one.

    @logan wrote:

    However please do not confuse the ability and ambition to make money as anything but a positive way to live your life. Not greed or exploitation. That in my opinion is the language of envy.

    I assume you are possible referring to my comment re. which angle you view property buying in Spain.
    My response has nothing to do with envy, what a strange thing to say. Buying property for many had nothing to do with the ‘ability and ambition to make money’ – just a home in the sun would have done, hence I mentioned the Priors.

  • #89574
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    How the name of Franco cropped up here is a mystery apart from seeking a historical source for behaviour and yes his legacy still persists.

    No mystery, you got it in one.

    @logan wrote:

    However please do not confuse the ability and ambition to make money as anything but a positive way to live your life. Not greed or exploitation. That in my opinion is the language of envy.

    I assume you are possible referring to my comment re. which angle you view property buying in Spain.
    My response has nothing to do with envy, what a strange thing to say. Buying property for many had nothing to do with the ‘ability and ambition to make money’ – just a home in the sun would have done, hence I mentioned the Priors.

  • #89376
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    logan said

    ”However please do not confuse the ability and ambition to make money as anything but a positive way to live your life. Not greed or exploitation.”

    ….i think that statement itself is an idealism. Many indeed have used that ability and ambition in a positive way, and thank heavens for that, but some of the most foul selfish greedy people throughout history could have used that one also! Thankfully their ways are often not considered acceptable and in a fair society they are forced to treat fellow humans in a reasonable way. Most of the swindlers in the Spanish property industry fall in to that category, which is why there is such anger that so far they have got away with it. I wouldn’t call that positive, and i think most people would have more respect for an honest poor man, than wealthy crooks such as these!

  • #89576
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    logan said

    ”However please do not confuse the ability and ambition to make money as anything but a positive way to live your life. Not greed or exploitation.”

    ….i think that statement itself is an idealism. Many indeed have used that ability and ambition in a positive way, and thank heavens for that, but some of the most foul selfish greedy people throughout history could have used that one also! Thankfully their ways are often not considered acceptable and in a fair society they are forced to treat fellow humans in a reasonable way. Most of the swindlers in the Spanish property industry fall in to that category, which is why there is such anger that so far they have got away with it. I wouldn’t call that positive, and i think most people would have more respect for an honest poor man, than wealthy crooks such as these!

  • #89385
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In my opinion, saying that “Spain is a third world corrupt country” is a generalisation too imprecise and may be unuseful.

    What about the huge amount of vendors, Estate Agents, translators and Lawyers, British or linked to British companies or individuals?.

    Are all of them completely innocent in this mess?.

  • #89585
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    In my opinion, saying that “Spain is a third world corrupt country” is a generalisation too imprecise and may be unuseful.

    What about the huge amount of vendors, Estate Agents, translators and Lawyers, British or linked to British companies or individuals?.

    Are all of them completely innocent in this mess?.

  • #89386
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logans: Is spot on. However that does not mean that the situation cannot change. We might not see the benefits of the change but the next generation or the one after, will see & benefit from the change.

    I understand the Spanish mentality, like all proud races they don’t like to be told, this is trying to tell a teenager that his/her ways is going to be harmful to him/her in future or now.

    If however Spain or any other Country do not act on fundamental issues which underpins its structure will suffer and will continue to suffer. This suffering maybe relative and at times not transparent.

  • #89586
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logans: Is spot on. However that does not mean that the situation cannot change. We might not see the benefits of the change but the next generation or the one after, will see & benefit from the change.

    I understand the Spanish mentality, like all proud races they don’t like to be told, this is trying to tell a teenager that his/her ways is going to be harmful to him/her in future or now.

    If however Spain or any other Country do not act on fundamental issues which underpins its structure will suffer and will continue to suffer. This suffering maybe relative and at times not transparent.

  • #89387
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Legally

    did someone say it’s a third world corrupt country?.

    I think that crooks will prosper where ever they are tolerated, and i’m sure there are just as many in the UK as Spain. The difference is that Spains hopeless lack of regulation and justice, has encouraged corruption from the crooks in both countries. If anything the UK crooks are the worst i think in some ways. They have taken advantage of their own peoples trust in law and lawyers and and betrayed them with lies, while at the same time involving them with Spanish developers of similar ilk.

  • #89587
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Legally

    did someone say it’s a third world corrupt country?.

    I think that crooks will prosper where ever they are tolerated, and i’m sure there are just as many in the UK as Spain. The difference is that Spains hopeless lack of regulation and justice, has encouraged corruption from the crooks in both countries. If anything the UK crooks are the worst i think in some ways. They have taken advantage of their own peoples trust in law and lawyers and and betrayed them with lies, while at the same time involving them with Spanish developers of similar ilk.

  • #89388
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Think Logan/Legally/Shakeel/Charlie and even Goodstich 44 have about summed up the problems facing many with a direct and balanced view
    Must be going soft. But Hey 😆 no point in having a forum if we agree all of the time.
    As I said before ,have yer say move on and say if you agree.

    Just Frank 8)
    Time for another joke 😆

  • #89588
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Think Logan/Legally/Shakeel/Charlie and even Goodstich 44 have about summed up the problems facing many with a direct and balanced view
    Must be going soft. But Hey 😆 no point in having a forum if we agree all of the time.
    As I said before ,have yer say move on and say if you agree.

    Just Frank 8)
    Time for another joke 😆

  • #89391
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The system is third world & akin to a Banana Republic. This how it is and this is how it is perceived. Having high speed trains running does not put Spain into first world league, in fact it a very shallow & superficial way of looking at the issues of the Country/society.

    ” Justice should be visible, this visibility can be see very clearly seen , when you look at the Priors desirable abode to set an example.

  • #89591
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    The system is third world & akin to a Banana Republic. This how it is and this is how it is perceived. Having high speed trains running does not put Spain into first world league, in fact it a very shallow & superficial way of looking at the issues of the Country/society.

    ” Justice should be visible, this visibility can be see very clearly seen , when you look at the Priors desirable abode to set an example.

  • #89393
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Shakeel
    JUSTICE 😯

    A 45 year old man has been abusing a young girl since the age of nine in the town that I live
    She is now 12 and had a baby thats deformed.
    The 12 year old is now in mental care
    He admits to other similar cases.
    The so called man reveived 4 years expected to be out in just over 2.

    You Posted.
    Justice should be visible, this visibility can be see very clearly seen , when you look at the Priors desirable abode to set an example.

    Is this what we in this civilised country set our examples ❓

    What would happen to that thing in Spain?

    As I said .Agree if we agree,Say if you dont and move on 😉

    Just Frank 8)

  • #89593
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Shakeel
    JUSTICE 😯

    A 45 year old man has been abusing a young girl since the age of nine in the town that I live
    She is now 12 and had a baby thats deformed.
    The 12 year old is now in mental care
    He admits to other similar cases.
    The so called man reveived 4 years expected to be out in just over 2.

    You Posted.
    Justice should be visible, this visibility can be see very clearly seen , when you look at the Priors desirable abode to set an example.

    Is this what we in this civilised country set our examples ❓

    What would happen to that thing in Spain?

    As I said .Agree if we agree,Say if you dont and move on 😉

    Just Frank 8)

  • #89605
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Legally wrote:

    What about the huge amount of vendors, Estate Agents, translators and Lawyers, British or linked to British companies or individuals?.

    Are all of them completely innocent in this mess?.

    Legally,
    Of course they’re not. I had a meeting with the Head of the Economic Fraud Squad in London over a year ago, giving them evidence that British & Irish REAs were heavily involved & still flogging illegal properties in Spain via the UK, & making millions in the process. British law firms have also been reported to the Law Society in said matter.

    Hopefully, most of us can acknowledge that many British companies & individuals are also reprehensible. They are named on Our Petition.

  • #89405
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @Legally wrote:

    What about the huge amount of vendors, Estate Agents, translators and Lawyers, British or linked to British companies or individuals?.

    Are all of them completely innocent in this mess?.

    Legally,
    Of course they’re not. I had a meeting with the Head of the Economic Fraud Squad in London over a year ago, giving them evidence that British & Irish REAs were heavily involved & still flogging illegal properties in Spain via the UK, & making millions in the process. British law firms have also been reported to the Law Society in said matter.

    Hopefully, most of us can acknowledge that many British companies & individuals are also reprehensible. They are named on Our Petition.

  • #89620
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    It has always been accepted practice in Spain to build without formal planning permission. In the days when I was involved in development the local town hall condoned such activity. The reason was that the administration was so hopelessly slow. There was also a conflict between the need for local employment, economic activity and tourist expansion and the regional government that wanted to block almost anything.
    British and Irish agents as well as lawyers were also part of the practice believing perhaps misguidedly that it was acceptable behaviour in Spain. I am not talking about the pure crooks and con men here. I am referring the business people who knowingly or not became caught up in the system. Criminal, dishonest? I don’t think so.
    In Andalucía then the regional government (PS) was in sharp conflict with the PP so nothing was allowed to happen. Local mayors who were members of PP took matters into their own hands and gave the nod unilaterally to developments locally. This before the regional government gave any formal approval to allow agricultural land to be urbanised. This was common practice and usually worked for many years. Retrospective planning was usually obtained long after the properties were built and sold. Lawyers acting for the purchasers understood the system and turn blind eyes ‘Nelson’ style. This went on for years without much trouble. Even the utility companies co-operated in providing supplies without paper work.
    Buyers eventually had their properties legalized with a paper chase by their lawyers. Recently however in the last 5-10 years the explosion in property development has forced the regional governments to act under pressure from Madrid and the EU who seek sustainability in development. The infrastructure in Spain cannot hope to support the amount of coastal development built in recent years. It is nothing short of a disaster waiting to happen.
    I do not deny that local Mayors were given ‘incentives’ to allow development. That has always been a standard practice in Spain. However it was usually in the form of political support from local workers and their families. Gerrymandering I know, corruption yes of course but that’s how things are done or were done back then.
    Currently the regional governments are cracking down on illegal builds and I fear most folks will loose their investments. Sadly for them they came to the party too late.
    However I do feel at last the Spanish have woken up to the mess that has been created and are doing something about it. That must be a positive move. It is terrible for those caught up in it but sympathy will not really help. Nor will trying to turn back the clock and halt an inevitable process.

  • #89622
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    The Spanish have lived happily in illegal properties all their lives, or in properties listed as naves on the escritura.etc. It was only when foreigners started to buy them that the Junta stepped in, there is still a large amount of xenaphobia behind their decisions/actions. Very few Spanish are caught up in the situation…Bet when all the dust has settled the Spanish will continue to live happily in them…bought for a pittance from johnny foreigner.

  • #89624
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan: I think your post will be bad news for many and for those who came to the party too late.

    The practises of the builders to take a view or to blatantly ignore the rules due to politics or the snail pace workings of the Councils are no comfort for the innocent. The party/regional politics of Spain has been around for decades,couple that with dogma has damaged the economies of many regions in Spain.

    As, far the Johny foreigner is concerned. If I was one of them I will ensure that I would personally demolish the place by renting a bulldozer for the day & let the Council clear the rubble. What fun that would be !!!!

  • #89625
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Yes of course shakeel buying in Spain has always been a risky business and developing even more so!
    I believe that risk is something most people are simply not aware of until things go wrong. Then they seek someone else to sort out their mess, blaming a lack of research on a system they don’t really understand..
    There is/was a subconscious belief that Spain is really the UK in the sun.
    That is not to say that someone like the Priors did not take any precautions. No, they relied on others and believed their lawyers were the same as your average high street solicitor. They and a multitude of others simply did not understand how Spain worked. Why would/should they? Naivety has a cost. Spain really is another country.
    In life if you take a gamble or risk and it falls you have to accept the failure, loss and move on. Sad and painful as it is.

  • #89628
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan 😯
    You Posted

    “Naivety has a cost. Spain really is another country.
    In life if you take a gamble or risk and it falls you have to accept the failure, loss and move on. Sad and painful as it is.”

    Do you want to hire my Tin Hat

    Yer not supposed to say that sort of thing on this forum 😆 😆
    Yer in deep shit. 😆

    Just Frank 8)

  • #89632
    Profile photo of mike
    mike
    Participant

    @charlie wrote:

    Re. your ‘blue Monday’ hangover – try a pint of freshly-squeezed orange juice, a bar of chocolate and a good video – works wonders for the body and soul! 😉

    Alternatively, getting drunk again always works for me.

  • #89634
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Logan: you are absolutely right. An example of UK in the sun was set by a friends mother in law, who came for holidays to the CDS to visit her daughter & son in law..

    I asked her if she was having a good time. She in a very un English like honestly said no. Expecting a stereo typed answer from her as to how lovely it is sunny, temperature etc. When asked for her reasons for the dislike, she said the even the TV was not in English.

    Frank, pass me the spare tin hat, you offered me a few weeks ago.

  • #89636
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    @logan wrote:

    Yes of course shakeel buying in Spain has always been a risky business and developing even more so!
    I believe that risk is something most people are simply not aware of until things go wrong. Then they seek someone else to sort out their mess, blaming a lack of research on a system they don’t really understand..
    There is/was a subconscious belief that Spain is really the UK in the sun.
    That is not to say that someone like the Priors did not take any precautions. No, they relied on others and believed their lawyers were the same as your average high street solicitor. They and a multitude of others simply did not understand how Spain worked. Why would/should they? Naivety has a cost. Spain really is another country.
    In life if you take a gamble or risk and it falls you have to accept the failure, loss and move on. Sad and painful as it is.

    I think this applies to people who have bought during the past couple of years. Not, however to previous times (pre-forums like this). Spain is not a third world country, officialy anyway, why should people have thought they were taking a gamble? Spain is part of the EU and a democratic country…using a Lawyer should have been enough. Most of the people who have been left with illegal properties were not naive….they were conned, scammed or whatever you like to call it.

  • #89638
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    You cannot judge a book by its cover. No matter how well known the author is or whatever pseudonym is being used.

  • #89639
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Unfortunately Katy Spain is a third world country in all but name.
    Its development post Franco has been astonishing. However its democratic institutions, infrastructure and rule of law are still lagging behind.
    That is not surprising. The rest of Europe took many centuries to perfect such structures.
    The problem as I see it is the prevailing culture of corruption which persists across the generations. Patria, extended family relations, political and social influence. Back scratching to you and I. Favours given are always favours returned. All quite normal behaviour in Spanish society yet mostly illegal elsewhere.
    I doubt that will ever change. I simply say to those wanting to purchase anything in Spain, do not trust anyone until you have had a long association. Even then be ever watchful..

  • #89643
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Shakeel
    Its in the post. 10% Discount as its you.
    The business is going well at the moment .

    Just Frank 8)

  • #89645
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Unfortunately Katy Spain is a third world country in all but name.
    Its development post Franco has been astonishing. However its democratic institutions, infrastructure and rule of law are still lagging behind. That is not surprising. The rest of Europe took many centuries to perfect such structures.”

    Rome wasn’t built in day. What I find very disheartening is that the Power’s to be are not even thinking, where to lay the first stone for the building of the infrastructure.

  • #89646
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Posted by Shakeel.
    Its development post Franco has been astonishing. However its democratic institutions, infrastructure and rule of law are still lagging behind. That is not surprising. The rest of Europe took many centuries to perfect such structures.”

    Personally I think this one statement sums up the situation.
    The corruption,the conmen had an open house as they new the system wasnt there to protect the unaware.
    Many of us thought it was. Pretty logical really .
    Well as so many in the construction industry are out of work perhaps they can start laying those stones.

    Just Frank 8)

  • #89656
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “Well as so many in the construction industry are out of work perhaps they can start laying those stones. “

    THE STONES THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT HAVE TO BE LAID BY VISIONARIES, INTELLECTUALS WITH LEADERSHIP QUALITIES TO MOTIVATE & LEAD PEOPLE.

  • #89657
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    and i thiught it was the brickies that layed the stones.

  • #89658
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    katy wrote

    ”Most of the people who have been left with illegal properties were not naive….they were conned, scammed or whatever you like to call it.”

    this is the bottom line. Whatever Spain has been in the past gives no excuse to rob people in the present. We all know there is no justification for the Priors case and many like it. Saying ‘Spain is third world country’, ‘Spain is different’, is just avoiding the current facts, and no help to anyone apart from crooks!. We know full well Spain is wrong for allowing decent people to be conned by modern day crooks, working in a modern day society, and those responsible, should be forced to pay. If the governments law and justice system are so crap that they allow this to happen then the buck should stop with them.

    No more lies, no more excuses, lets just accept the fact that many have been conned/scammed/cheated. We should just do whatever it takes to get these people justice, what ever it takes, pay them back the money they are owed, THEN and only THEN should we move on. Anything else is just saying that cheats/con-men and liars are acceptable. That’s got to be wrong anywhere in the world, that alone in an EU country.

  • #89659
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    “No more lies, no more excuses, lets just accept the fact that many have been conned/scammed/cheated.”

    The reality is that we have all accepted it and I dont think any fair minded person would deny that. The fact that these people could operate in the manner that they did is what makes Spain different. It no defence in any form,

    “We should just do whatever it takes to get these people justice,”

    I, agree not only for these people but by improving the system will help the next generation as well.

    “That’s got to be wrong anywhere in the world, that alone in an EU country.”

    Agree

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