10 Reasons Not To Buy A Property In Spain

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This topic contains 86 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of angie angie 4 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #56905
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Before I post my example I found this article on Eye on Spain written I believe by Justin or someone he knows with intelligence, it’s not rocket science either but this is especially for DBMarcos aka Steviedelux who is far more numerate than me hence he needs at least two aliases ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/SpanishBusines … spain.aspx

    You will note it is not written by an agent. It was written in 2011 and most of it is relevant today and in some cases things have deteriorated for Spain financially and unemployment has risen considerably since the article ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110217
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    All triple AAA advice which you can find by wading through this forums historic posts.

    Since that blog was written in 2011 the situation in Spain for investors has worsened to junk status. More austerity is in the pipe line, IVA increase, utility, community and property tax rises inevitable.

    Of course that’s happening everywhere else too. Disposable incomes are being squeezed in Europe and the wider world by the need for austerity. Private and public investment is declining across all sectors as risks increases and returns diminish.

    I see a new form of ice age in the worlds economies. Stagnation and decline. Depressing but with investment you need at times to be bearish. Find alternatives where the risks are less and costs are low.

    Property and especially recreational property is a definite disaster in the current climate.

    If a property in Spain looks too good to be true, remember it probably is. Someone owns it and wants his investment returned. Ask yourself why? The likely answer is because the owner knows it’s real value is only heading south.

  • #110228
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Agree it is all triple ‘A’ advice logan, hard to find fault with it and I will shortly present the maths to back it up for the wum who can buy in Spain asap if he wishes to test the water that he’s so sure of. But 1st waiting to hear his analysis on an expertly written article designed to help unwary prospective buyers from the UK:roll:

  • #110242
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Another interesting article on this subject:

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-2148780/Is-property-France-Spain-really-cheap-euros-dive.html

    I didn’t write the article BTW, and neither did an agent ๐Ÿ˜‰ It does say that ‘house prices in Spain and France remain dangerously high’ and warns against diving in, they’re not as cheap as you think! ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110245
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    According to that link Ireland looks an active proposition. I have actually been considering a move there but the climate puts me off, all that rain.

    Some tax benefits and health care. For example 20% tax allowance on private health care costs, ยฃ36,000 income tax allowance for couples over 65 but 40% tax on income over that limit. 25% inheritance tax on properties valued over ยฃ250K it used to be ยฃ325K. Corporation tax only 12%.

    Ireland seems to be emerging from the crash quite well and has returned to the bond markets with moderate yields. There are many positive things and very few negatives.

    I feel confident a property investment there soon may be worthwhile. Anyone know of any more negatives?

  • #110248
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    One more positive Logan is that you have a good Irish name methinks ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Apart from weather as you say, probably not many negatives if it’s coming out of the doldrums. I imagine it will recover quicker than some countries because it has less unfinished new builds and housing stock to get through, plus Brits might feel more comfortable buying there with English language and British similar type of living, plus proximity to UK. Import the sun and it could be a winner!

    I think the Liffey flows with Guinness too, positive or negative? ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110250
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    One more positive Logan is that you have a good Irish name methinks ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Actually originally I’m a Scot. ๐Ÿ™‚
    There may be merit in being fiscally registered in Ireland and being elsewhere in France or another EU state with a better climate.
    That’s an anomaly of the EU as it’s currently constructed without fiscal union, advantages are there to be used. I’m currently researching these possibilities in the wake of Hollande’s new appalling confiscatory tax regimes.
    Many French are doing just the same looking for the exits.

  • #110281
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    All triple AAA advice which you can find by wading through this forums historic posts.

    Since that blog was written in 2011 the situation in Spain for investors has worsened to junk status. More austerity is in the pipe line, IVA increase, utility, community and property tax rises inevitable.

    Of course that’s happening everywhere else too. Disposable incomes are being squeezed in Europe and the wider world by the need for austerity. Private and public investment is declining across all sectors as risks increases and returns diminish.

    I see a new form of ice age in the worlds economies. Stagnation and decline. Depressing but with investment you need at times to be bearish. Find alternatives where the risks are less and costs are low.

    Property and especially recreational property is a definite disaster in the current climate.

    If a property in Spain looks too good to be true, remember it probably is. Someone owns it and wants his investment returned. Ask yourself why? The likely answer is because the owner knows it’s real value is only heading south.

    I wrote about this in 2009 as posted on the El Soto thread. Only an idiot would buy property in Spain AT ANY PRICE (SHAKEEL)
    El Soto at 145K euros is utter desperation.

  • #110282
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    El Soto at 145K euros is utter desperation.

    You may feel that GJ because you were previously convinced they were worth โ‚ฌ400k. However in fact the example you posted on the other thread is simply a very small flat in a pretty garden with very high overheads and some distance from either the coast or Marbella..

    In today’s Spanish market generally speaking two bed roomed coastal flats are worth between โ‚ฌ60 -โ‚ฌ90k. Anything else is over the top.

  • #110283
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h60TXcw7ZVQ

    I have been there HAVE YOU.

    A normal 2 bed 2 bath will never sell for as MUCH as 60 K euros .

    I not sure I would pay 60 K euros front line beach on the golden mile .

    You are completley missing my point or are you just TROLLING!!!!!!

    And before any idiot says I have any agenda.

    I don’t
    I am saying Spain is TOAST and will go away now for another 2 years or so and wll remind you all its much worse than even the pessimists think when I return if this forum is still here then.

  • #110284
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    GJ.
    Yes been there, got the tee shirt and used to be an investor not far away. I said between 60-90 for a two bedroom flat.
    From that investor perspective if a property struggles to achieve a long term rent of 550โ‚ฌ it’s not worth โ‚ฌ145k. The owner pays the overheads and any professional investor will seek a minimum capital return of 5% net return annually.
    It runs thus:-
    Purchase price โ‚ฌ145K + 12% taxes = โ‚ฌ162,400
    Annual overheads say โ‚ฌ4-5k = โ‚ฌ167.400.
    Required minimum rental income – โ‚ฌ8370 at 5%.

    Holiday lets are just a hassle and increase your overheads.

    To be honest most property investors these days would not get out of bed for a 5% return on capital. In the days of capital growth in property and before huge CGT it was different. The 5% just kept you ticking over. Now it’s impossible to achieve. So what’s the point.

    If I wanted to invest in that apartment I would offer no more than โ‚ฌ90k.

  • #110285
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Logan wtote
    “If I wanted to invest in that apartment I would offer no more than โ‚ฌ90k.”

    And I say you WOULD LOSE 90K euros.

    TROLL

    Check out the title of this thread

    Anyone investing in property in Spain now at ANY price has learnt nothing.

    edited to try to be clear to an idiot

  • #110286
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    I will ignore the childish name calling and persevere. ๐Ÿ™

    If your point is the value of property in Spain will crash to being worthless you are wrong. Everything has a value which is usually set by the market. Economic activity in Europe will not stop, commodities such as property will always have a net worth.

    At the moment there is little market activity so values are uncertain. A property is worth what someone will pay and what someone will sell for. โ‚ฌ90k for the apartment you posted seems about right to me. The fact that the seller would probably not agree to it is irrelevant it just won’t sell.

    I agree the market has some way yet to fall before it stabilises. It will then stagnate (stay the same) alongside world economies for a decade until the upturn eventually arrives.

  • #110287
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Logan wrote
    “If your point is the value of property in Spain will crash to being worthless you are wrong”.

    NO NO NO I am saying ANY financial investment in property in Spain is too risky and will stay that way for years to come.
    If investors want to invest they will come to places like London.

    This unfortunate fact means misery for existing property owners in Spain

    And before you go off on another tangent and start writing about buying to live in Spain read my comments posted in 2009 and reposted on the El Soto thread.
    I am sad to say even the rental market will struggle for the indefinite future.

    Are you really saying you would buy a property in Spain if the price was right?

    If you are I would ask what is your real agenda here?

    Are you a vulture that wants to pick over the corpse once the current owners have lost everything ?
    Be careful what you wish for France could be next with ex pats there desperate to sell.

  • #110289
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    I wonder who wrote this??????

    Every word I agree with

    @logan wrote:

    All triple AAA advice which you can find by wading through this forums historic posts.

    Since that blog was written in 2011 the situation in Spain for investors has worsened to junk status. More austerity is in the pipe line, IVA increase, utility, community and property tax rises inevitable.

    Of course that’s happening everywhere else too. Disposable incomes are being squeezed in Europe and the wider world by the need for austerity. Private and public investment is declining across all sectors as risks increases and returns diminish.

    I see a new form of ice age in the worlds economies. Stagnation and decline. Depressing but with investment you need at times to be bearish. Find alternatives where the risks are less and costs are low.

    Property and especially recreational property is a definite disaster in the current climate.

    If a property in Spain looks too good to be true, remember it probably is. Someone owns it and wants his investment returned. Ask yourself why? The likely answer is because the owner knows it’s real value is only heading south.

    Just to hi-light this comment Logan wrote ” Find alternatives where the risks are less and costs are low.”

    What is your real agenda.
    Or do you just enjoy totally contradicting yourself?

  • #110301
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Unfortunately you have completely misunderstood me.

    No, I have no agenda, just commentary to help others avoid the pitfalls of investing in Spain. I realise altruism is not understood in today’s world but that is my only motive for being a member of this forum.

    No, I have no intention of investing in property in Spain at whatever price. I have other areas of interest now and semi retired.

    I would advise anyone and have done so on here many times to avoid Spanish property even with a long pole it’s toxic.

    I don’t quite understand why you attack my posts in such a personal way. You sound very angry. Failure does that.
    Chill out, find a new challenge, move on.

  • #110302
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    I feel like Jeremy Paxman interviewing a slippery politician.

    Logan wrote”No, I have no intention of investing in property in Spain at whatever price”
    so you would not pay 60 or 90K euros.

    I rest my case

  • #110308
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    I feel like Jeremy Paxman interviewing a slippery politician.

    Logan wrote”No, I have no intention of investing in property in Spain at whatever price”
    so you would not pay 60 or 90K euros.

    I rest my case

    There is a difference between what someone thinks the market value of something is and the amount they are personally prepared to pay for it. For example flats in Calcutta have a market value, but I would personally not buy one at any price since I have no intrerest in owning property in Calcutta. That’s not the same as saying that I think flats in Calcutta have no market value.

  • #110309
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Who was it mentioned”no market value” not me check the thread again.

  • #110310
    Profile photo of Fuengi (Andrew)
    Fuengi (Andrew)
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    GJ.
    Yes been there, got the tee shirt and used to be an investor not far away. I said between 60-90 for a two bedroom flat.
    From that investor perspective if a property struggles to achieve a long term rent of 550โ‚ฌ it’s not worth โ‚ฌ145k. The owner pays the overheads and any professional investor will seek a minimum capital return of 5% net return annually.
    It runs thus:-
    Purchase price โ‚ฌ145K + 12% taxes = โ‚ฌ162,400
    Annual overheads say โ‚ฌ4-5k = โ‚ฌ167.400.
    Required minimum rental income – โ‚ฌ8370 at 5%.

    Holiday lets are just a hassle and increase your overheads.

    To be honest most property investors these days would not get out of bed for a 5% return on capital. In the days of capital growth in property and before huge CGT it was different. The 5% just kept you ticking over. Now it’s impossible to achieve. So what’s the point.

    If I wanted to invest in that apartment I would offer no more than โ‚ฌ90k.

    Not arguing with your reasoning, but the purchase tax on the property at 145.000โ‚ฌ would be approx. 13.050โ‚ฌ (9%).

  • #110311
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Example I said I’d post as to why it’s not a good time for Brits to buy in Spain now due to poor exchange rate and Euro uncertainties, some can’t understand the maths or logic:

    We bought at a rate of 1.64 some years ago on a 300k new build apartment, we later found out the selling agent (now gone) built in 20% commission so the apartment was worth only 240k but the 11% completion costs on top of 300k brought the total to 333k (for something worth 240k so rip-off) in Sterling terms ยฃ203k

    Same apartment supposedly now down 33% on total (maybe more) so valued at 223k euros add on 11% completion costs total 247k euros. Exchange rate approx, 1.20 so in sterling terms ยฃ205k

    Give or take minor fluctuations in rates there’s no difference in price (for Brits) really to years ago, but then what if the Euro does collapse or Spain reverts to Peseta, at present no-one knows how this will pan out โ“

    Why would any Brit of sound mind risk buying in Spain, even with a 50% reduction you will lose if the above scenario happens ๐Ÿ™„ You’d be hard pushed to ever see your investment back let alone any profit : ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    Rent first and wait and see : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110312
    Profile photo of GJ
    GJ
    Participant

    Angie wrote “Why would any Brit of sound mind risk buying in Spain, even with a 50% reduction you will lose if the above scenario happens You’d be hard pushed to ever see your investment back let alone any profit

    Rent first and wait and see
    Totally agree with that.

  • #110313
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    @gj wrote:

    Who was it mentioned”no market value” not me check the thread again.

    I know. Now stop banging your head against the computer and check my post again.

  • #110321
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @gj
    ” I wrote about this in 2009 as posted on the El Soto thread. Only an idiot would buy property in Spain AT ANY PRICE (SHAKEEL) El Soto at 145K euros is utter desperation.

    Hi Gj, please remind me. I have lost track of the subject matter & my related comments>

  • #110330
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I’m glad you agree with my post GJ, the original 10 reasons have surely got to be the Bible of why it’s not time for Brits to buy in Spain, if anyone reads it but then ignores it, they can only blame themselves. : ๐Ÿ™„

    BTW, noticed your initials GJ, when you’re not head banging, do you play wicket keeper for Kent Cricket Club, Geraint Jones?

    He’s a good lad methinks : ๐Ÿ™‚

    Meanwhile, I will disagree with you on one thing, Logan is a good guy trying to point out the pitfalls to the unwary like several of us, and, it seems you are trying to make people see the light too, chopera is a charming chappie as well, katy has great knowledge of Spain, I warm to the good guys ๐Ÿ™‚ I agree there are trolls on here trying to mislead people though, but not Logan ๐Ÿ™„

    Meanwhile I wish you good luck in the future 8)

  • #110378
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It seems like the VAT on new builds will still be charged at 4% so some relief there, however, has it risen for re-sales and from what to what? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110383
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Rajoy’s announcement – the key points
    Here’s a round-up of the main measures announced by Mariano Rajoy this morning, as the price of the bailout of Spain’s banking sector.

    โ€ข Reform of public administration, cutting โ‚ฌ3.5bn

    โ€ข A “drastic reduction” in the number of local public companies, and a reduction in the number at national level

    โ€ข “Corrective mechanisms” for retional spending, and a new liquidity mechanism to help fund Spain’s regions

    โ€ข Civil servants benefits will be cut, and senior workers will lose the Christmas bonus. Further cuts at ministries are planned.

    โ€ข Funding for unions and political parties will fall by 20%

    โ€ข A review of unemployment benefits

    โ€ข VAT will rise to 21%, from 18%. Property tax breaks will be eliminated, and ‘indirect taxes’ on energy will be raised

    โ€ข Income tax will be cut

    โ€ข State assets including airports and railways will be sold off

  • #110388
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    An apartment not to buy in Spain, there’s many more like this ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I had an email from an agent about a 3 bed 2 bath apartment for sale on Alhaurin Golf reduced from 210k to 155k. I know this site very well, the main developer went bust and there are several skeletal blocks dotted around the golf course, ugly to look at.

    This apartment is really poorly built, I’ve stayed in one there, virtually no sound insulation from next door either side, nor from above nor from below. They are now dated, poorly plumbed continuing plumbing and drainage issues, cracking of the render, highish costs, burglary is commonplace as the Security was taken away, note the wrecker bars on the apartment above ground level as well.

    Joe Bloggs, please do not buy this even if it’s offered at 1 euro 55 cents, there’s loads for sale there and the prices are tumbling ๐Ÿ˜‰

    This makes the one in Elviria look well built and good value in comparison, there are loads of these poorly built ones on the Costas ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110390
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    My grandfather (spanish) always said never buy anything that was built in a boom period. Things were so crazy at one time in Spain they thought they could get away with inferior materials and sell off-plan rubbish as “luxury”

  • #110391
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I think he gave good advice katy ๐Ÿ˜‰

    One real piece of advice is to go to the development during construction, or to one of those unfinished skeletal blocks anywhere on the Coast, have a look at what is between each apartment and invariably you will see a thin hollow terracotta brick/block that looks like a shell. At this site Alhaurin, that is all that’s literally between you and next door, not even any rockwool, it beggars belief how they can get away with that. I suppose during the ‘boom’ they quickly rendered both sides and no-one was the wiser until after they moved in and heard everything, you name it, someone in the loo, love machine going on, talking, radio/tv, shouting and laughter, and sometimes barking dogs. You could put your foot through one of those walls.

    Now it might seem like I bang on about it but it is true and a warning to newbies on here, send your friends/family next door and ask them to talk or shout. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110392
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Spain always did have a terrible reputation for build quality. I saw first hand how they built many years ago in my development days. I was horrified. I was simply told that’s how it’s done here, this is not Britain we don’t need to do it.

    In Spain there is no such thing as a building inspector and if there were he would be given pay off’s. I do believe these days they have to build to certain norms drawn up by the architect. Trouble is these norms are usually ignored. You can sue the architect if a development is not built correctly and in accordance with the norms.

    However be prepared to fork out thousands in lawyer, surveyor and court fees and wait anywhere between 3 to 5 years just to have the case heard with no certain outcome.

  • #110393
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    but what about old construction, say 30 to 100 years ago in townhouses, was that construction also poor?
    some of those properties have 1 or 2 feet walls?? maybe is tiem to buy one of them rather than the new shiny aluminum jobs around!!!!!!

  • #110394
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Valid point Jaime but most of them are in less desirable locations where tourist and holiday traffic doesn’t go. If you want to live in Spain and be part of a small Spanish community in a relatively remote place it’s the only choice.

  • #110396
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie. You are talking about Cricket & about Kent Cricket. In my estimation you are now top of the pops.

  • #110398
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    ‘Top of the Pops’ why thank you shakeel.

    I must admit I have occasionally visited those hallowed cricket grounds of Canterbury, Tunbridge Wells and Hove to watch the odd game of cricket, you can sleep at these games too, as an alternative to my annual bull run in Pamplona which is no good in heels ๐Ÿ˜†

    I see that 2 Brits and 1 Yank were gored in the ‘bull run’ or maybe gored elsewhere on their persons, no doubt the Royal Navy will send a ship to evacuate all Brits from Spain in case things escalate ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110425
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It now seems that Spaniards are paying mortgages for ‘the house that wasn’t there’, only in Spain could this happen (maybe Cyprus) as well, is this yet another Spanish scam, magic trick? ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/ … n’t-there/

    You might need to Google search it if the link doesn’t work ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I’ve heard it all now, there’s no end to their tricks : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110709
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It now seems that Spaniards are paying mortgages for ‘the house that wasn’t there’, only in Spain could this happen (maybe Cyprus) as well, is this yet another Spanish scam, magic trick? ๐Ÿ˜†

    http://www.latitude.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/ … n’t-there/

    You might need to Google search it if the link doesn’t work ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I’ve heard it all now, there’s no end to their tricks : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110427
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Angie. Any none who is into cricket gets my respect & goes to the top.

  • #110714
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Angie. Any none who is into cricket gets my respect & goes to the top.

  • #110430
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Plenty of property scams everywhere, especially where there is big money to be involved. Even websites that publicise this in the UK – http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/ – and it seems in London the elderly and vulnerable are targets – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2109539/Granny-land-registry-helped-steal-homes-elderly.html
    Goes to show you have to be careful wherever you buy. But good to see warnings here on possible Spanish scams, even if the links don’t go anywhere.

    Crikey – even folk from Uk banks get mixed up in scams – although perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised. Caveat Emptor, wherever you buy, and don’t trust anyone!
    http://www.bridgingandcommercial.co.uk/newsstory?id=2418&type=newsfeature&title=barclays_manager_in_3_8m_property_fraud

  • #110720
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    Plenty of property scams everywhere, especially where there is big money to be involved. Even websites that publicise this in the UK – http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/ – and it seems in London the elderly and vulnerable are targets – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2109539/Granny-land-registry-helped-steal-homes-elderly.html
    Goes to show you have to be careful wherever you buy. But good to see warnings here on possible Spanish scams, even if the links don’t go anywhere.

    Crikey – even folk from Uk banks get mixed up in scams – although perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised. Caveat Emptor, wherever you buy, and don’t trust anyone!
    http://www.bridgingandcommercial.co.uk/newsstory?id=2418&type=newsfeature&title=barclays_manager_in_3_8m_property_fraud

  • #110431
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Not trying to ruffle feathers here, but the topic is about reasons ‘not to buy in Spain for Brits’ which came off EOS another website designed primarily to help Brits I believe, as is this site.

    That said the link above does go somewhere if clicked on, regarding Spaniards paying for mortgages on invisible properties.

    Occasionally you hear about Brits being ripped off in the UK with their properties, however the scale is miniscule compared to what has happened in Spain, I would be interested in comparing the stats ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110722
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Not trying to ruffle feathers here, but the topic is about reasons ‘not to buy in Spain for Brits’ which came off EOS another website designed primarily to help Brits I believe, as is this site.

    That said the link above does go somewhere if clicked on, regarding Spaniards paying for mortgages on invisible properties.

    Occasionally you hear about Brits being ripped off in the UK with their properties, however the scale is miniscule compared to what has happened in Spain, I would be interested in comparing the stats ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110432
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Rajoy’s announcement – the key points
    Here’s a round-up of the main measures announced by Mariano Rajoy this morning, as the price of the bailout of Spain’s banking sector.

    โ€ข Reform of public administration, cutting โ‚ฌ3.5bn

    โ€ข A “drastic reduction” in the number of local public companies, and a reduction in the number at national level

    โ€ข “Corrective mechanisms” for retional spending, and a new liquidity mechanism to help fund Spain’s regions

    โ€ข Civil servants benefits will be cut, and senior workers will lose the Christmas bonus. Further cuts at ministries are planned.

    โ€ข Funding for unions and political parties will fall by 20%

    โ€ข A review of unemployment benefits

    โ€ข VAT will rise to 21%, from 18%. Property tax breaks will be eliminated, and ‘indirect taxes’ on energy will be raised

    โ€ข Income tax will be cut

    โ€ข State assets including airports and railways will be sold off

    One item there which isn’t being commented upon – Income tax will be cut. Does anyone know the details of this – it will be relevant for those (eg web workers) who are considering re-locating and working in Spain?

  • #110724
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @logan wrote:

    Rajoy’s announcement – the key points
    Here’s a round-up of the main measures announced by Mariano Rajoy this morning, as the price of the bailout of Spain’s banking sector.

    โ€ข Reform of public administration, cutting โ‚ฌ3.5bn

    โ€ข A “drastic reduction” in the number of local public companies, and a reduction in the number at national level

    โ€ข “Corrective mechanisms” for retional spending, and a new liquidity mechanism to help fund Spain’s regions

    โ€ข Civil servants benefits will be cut, and senior workers will lose the Christmas bonus. Further cuts at ministries are planned.

    โ€ข Funding for unions and political parties will fall by 20%

    โ€ข A review of unemployment benefits

    โ€ข VAT will rise to 21%, from 18%. Property tax breaks will be eliminated, and ‘indirect taxes’ on energy will be raised

    โ€ข Income tax will be cut

    โ€ข State assets including airports and railways will be sold off

    One item there which isn’t being commented upon – Income tax will be cut. Does anyone know the details of this – it will be relevant for those (eg web workers) who are considering re-locating and working in Spain?

  • #110433
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Not trying to ruffle feathers here, but the topic is about reasons ‘not to buy in Spain for Brits’ which came off EOS another website designed primarily to help Brits I believe, as is this site.

    That said the link above does go somewhere if clicked on, regarding Spaniards paying for mortgages on invisible properties.

    Occasionally you hear about Brits being ripped off in the UK with their properties, however the scale is miniscule compared to what has happened in Spain, I would be interested in comparing the stats ๐Ÿ™„

    well there are 103,000 results for “London property scam”, and 66,500 for Marbella, so considering how much bigger London is, you may be right. But the post was a reply to your insinuation that only the Spanish have scams. Plenty do it in the UK too, and indeed they are probably much worse for rental scams. Good and bad everywhere, which is why it’s good people like you can point out possible pitfalls. No doubt it’s not harmful to your UK house selling either. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110726
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Not trying to ruffle feathers here, but the topic is about reasons ‘not to buy in Spain for Brits’ which came off EOS another website designed primarily to help Brits I believe, as is this site.

    That said the link above does go somewhere if clicked on, regarding Spaniards paying for mortgages on invisible properties.

    Occasionally you hear about Brits being ripped off in the UK with their properties, however the scale is miniscule compared to what has happened in Spain, I would be interested in comparing the stats ๐Ÿ™„

    well there are 103,000 results for “London property scam”, and 66,500 for Marbella, so considering how much bigger London is, you may be right. But the post was a reply to your insinuation that only the Spanish have scams. Plenty do it in the UK too, and indeed they are probably much worse for rental scams. Good and bad everywhere, which is why it’s good people like you can point out possible pitfalls. No doubt it’s not harmful to your UK house selling either. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110435
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I knew you couldn’t ignore me for long ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Scams are operating all over the world, however I’d wager there are few property scams that have left more people in the mire than Spain’s, and this is ‘Spanish Property Insight’, one only has to look around the Coasts to see 1000’s of Se Vende and Se Aquilar signs, not so in the UK ๐Ÿ™„

    Now with 2 out of every 3 Spaniards thinking Spain is the most corrupt country in Europe it does not instil much confidence in Brits thinking of buying there methinks.

    http://www.periodistas-es.org/economia/economia-en-espana-greece-is-not-the-problem-spain-is

    Some very interesting points on this Spanish publication ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110730
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I knew you couldn’t ignore me for long ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Scams are operating all over the world, however I’d wager there are few property scams that have left more people in the mire than Spain’s, and this is ‘Spanish Property Insight’, one only has to look around the Coasts to see 1000’s of Se Vende and Se Aquilar signs, not so in the UK ๐Ÿ™„

    Now with 2 out of every 3 Spaniards thinking Spain is the most corrupt country in Europe it does not instil much confidence in Brits thinking of buying there methinks.

    http://www.periodistas-es.org/economia/economia-en-espana-greece-is-not-the-problem-spain-is

    Some very interesting points on this Spanish publication ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110437
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The principle difference is if you are scammed in the UK or France something gets done about it pretty quick.

    In Spain nada, nowt. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

  • #110734
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    The principle difference is if you are scammed in the UK or France something gets done about it pretty quick.

    In Spain nada, nowt. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

  • #110442
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Exactly, there may be a few scams in the UK but nothing like the scale of it in Spain. In the UK there is always recompense, and fairly quickly if say, you get a dodgy Solicitor, bank employee whatever. It is ludicrous to compare the two by the spanish ministry for disinformation ๐Ÿ˜†

    Even defaulting on a mortgage is the equivalent of the 18th centry debtors prison where they could never get out unless someone paid the debt! The average defaultor has around 30,000โ‚ฌ added onto the debt when they fall into arrears, they are between a rock and a hard place.

  • #110742
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Exactly, there may be a few scams in the UK but nothing like the scale of it in Spain. In the UK there is always recompense, and fairly quickly if say, you get a dodgy Solicitor, bank employee whatever. It is ludicrous to compare the two by the spanish ministry for disinformation ๐Ÿ˜†

    Even defaulting on a mortgage is the equivalent of the 18th centry debtors prison where they could never get out unless someone paid the debt! The average defaultor has around 30,000โ‚ฌ added onto the debt when they fall into arrears, they are between a rock and a hard place.

  • #110446
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Katy, can I ask you something? i’ve noticed on our online banking page that they’ve added 22k to our debt, is this the norm then? It this part of the whole mortgage amount that they are trying to get now, plus what we owe? ie: if we owe 108,000euros in total but are behind by nearly 3000 euros then the 22,000 euros which they are trying to claim is part of the 108,000 total or added to it??? Do we therefore now owe 130K?? I hope to God not!!

  • #110746
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    Hi Katy, can I ask you something? i’ve noticed on our online banking page that they’ve added 22k to our debt, is this the norm then? It this part of the whole mortgage amount that they are trying to get now, plus what we owe? ie: if we owe 108,000euros in total but are behind by nearly 3000 euros then the 22,000 euros which they are trying to claim is part of the 108,000 total or added to it??? Do we therefore now owe 130K?? I hope to God not!!

  • #110453
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Itsme.
    I am very much afraid that is the case from the information you have provided.

    What in fact the bank are doing is setting out their legal claim for the future. You need a lawyer to act in your interests fairly urgently.

  • #110753
    Profile photo of logan
    logan
    Participant

    Itsme.
    I am very much afraid that is the case from the information you have provided.

    What in fact the bank are doing is setting out their legal claim for the future. You need a lawyer to act in your interests fairly urgently.

  • #110464
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Maybe not so logan and itsme if the post on ‘spain deep cleaning it’s financial industry’ from EOS and The Olive Press are correct in any way ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110764
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Maybe not so logan and itsme if the post on ‘spain deep cleaning it’s financial industry’ from EOS and The Olive Press are correct in any way ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110512
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I’ve just read an article that states 74% of British property owners in Spain want to go home, home being the UK, that’s a lot of people if true ๐Ÿ™„ Why? I wonder what reasons they would give? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110812
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I’ve just read an article that states 74% of British property owners in Spain want to go home, home being the UK, that’s a lot of people if true ๐Ÿ™„ Why? I wonder what reasons they would give? ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110513
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    I’ve just read an article that states 74% of British property owners in Spain want to go home, home being the UK, that’s a lot of people if true ๐Ÿ™„ Why? I wonder what reasons they would give? ๐Ÿ™„

    You need to get your reading glasses on ๐Ÿ˜›

    http://www.prycewarner.com/news-british-expats-cancel-plans-to-return-home-105.html

    A new survey has revealed that British Expats much prefer life abroad and have little intention of returning home

    London, UK (Pryce Warner International) October 26th, 2011 โ€“ Scores of Expats are choosing to remain overseas and are cancelling plans to return to the UK.
    The principal reasons for wanting to remain abroad were reportedly better quality of life, better finances and lower costs of living. Respondents also commented that in the wake of the London riots they felt that they were safer overseas. 74% of people said that they felt life was better overseas.

  • #110813
    Profile photo of DBMarcos99
    DBMarcos99
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    I’ve just read an article that states 74% of British property owners in Spain want to go home, home being the UK, that’s a lot of people if true ๐Ÿ™„ Why? I wonder what reasons they would give? ๐Ÿ™„

    You need to get your reading glasses on ๐Ÿ˜›

    http://www.prycewarner.com/news-british-expats-cancel-plans-to-return-home-105.html

    A new survey has revealed that British Expats much prefer life abroad and have little intention of returning home

    London, UK (Pryce Warner International) October 26th, 2011 โ€“ Scores of Expats are choosing to remain overseas and are cancelling plans to return to the UK.
    The principal reasons for wanting to remain abroad were reportedly better quality of life, better finances and lower costs of living. Respondents also commented that in the wake of the London riots they felt that they were safer overseas. 74% of people said that they felt life was better overseas.

  • #110520
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    According to Costa del Gangster Spain’s most reliable source of information (only in Spain ๐Ÿ˜† ) 74% wanted to return home in 2010, I imagine that figure has risen significantly since with all he bad news since, but being kept quiet ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110820
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    According to Costa del Gangster Spain’s most reliable source of information (only in Spain ๐Ÿ˜† ) 74% wanted to return home in 2010, I imagine that figure has risen significantly since with all he bad news since, but being kept quiet ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #110869
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Having done a recent search of estate agents in Spain and elsewhere abroad in order to find out who their Directors are, including those cowards who fled Spain belonging to Ocean Estates Thailand, it transpires that few agents list their Directors. : ๐Ÿ˜ก I wonder why ๐Ÿ˜† In the UK it is easy to find out as well as contact any CEO, Chaiman, MD through Googling CEO email addresses and there are many overseas companies on the list too ๐Ÿ˜‰

    This means in effect if anyone has a problem buying or selling they have no way of guaranteeing their complaint reaches these somewhat shady individuals, shady I mean hidden from view. : ๐Ÿ™„

    Now, knowing that many of these companies come and go very quickly plus high turnover of staff, people buying each other out etc it’s obvious they don’t want any publicity. : ๐Ÿ˜ฎ Are they afraid of repercussions โ“

    In that case, and in order to help clean up property mis-selling in Spain and elsewhere, my recommendation would be to avoid such companies, and only consider purchase or sale through reputable agents who are also transparent about their staff, how to reach them, references that can be checked etc : ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110569
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Having done a recent search of estate agents in Spain and elsewhere abroad in order to find out who their Directors are, including those cowards who fled Spain belonging to Ocean Estates Thailand, it transpires that few agents list their Directors. : ๐Ÿ˜ก I wonder why ๐Ÿ˜† In the UK it is easy to find out as well as contact any CEO, Chaiman, MD through Googling CEO email addresses and there are many overseas companies on the list too ๐Ÿ˜‰

    This means in effect if anyone has a problem buying or selling they have no way of guaranteeing their complaint reaches these somewhat shady individuals, shady I mean hidden from view. : ๐Ÿ™„

    Now, knowing that many of these companies come and go very quickly plus high turnover of staff, people buying each other out etc it’s obvious they don’t want any publicity. : ๐Ÿ˜ฎ Are they afraid of repercussions โ“

    In that case, and in order to help clean up property mis-selling in Spain and elsewhere, my recommendation would be to avoid such companies, and only consider purchase or sale through reputable agents who are also transparent about their staff, how to reach them, references that can be checked etc : ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • #110634
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    With a further 25% drop in prices predicted for Spanish property following a record fall so far, surely anyone of sound mind from the UK (due to exchange rates) would wait before taking the plunge, one could lose a fortune ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … se-prices/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110934
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    With a further 25% drop in prices predicted for Spanish property following a record fall so far, surely anyone of sound mind from the UK (due to exchange rates) would wait before taking the plunge, one could lose a fortune ๐Ÿ™„

    http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/07 … se-prices/

    ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110693
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This article written in June with comments from Mark that figures re Spanish property are too rosy and this needs remedy:

    http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/spains-real-estate-prices-still-falling-59377.aspx

    Sort of backs up the previous article.

    Now, if anyone of sound mind was thinking of buying in Spain would these articles make you think twice, maybe hold fire until the uncertainty is more or less over โ“ ๐Ÿ™„

    It’s a no brainer unless that person had to move to Spain or was a gambler, and there was too much of that before, which caught 1000’s out : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110993
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This article written in June with comments from Mark that figures re Spanish property are too rosy and this needs remedy:

    http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/spains-real-estate-prices-still-falling-59377.aspx

    Sort of backs up the previous article.

    Now, if anyone of sound mind was thinking of buying in Spain would these articles make you think twice, maybe hold fire until the uncertainty is more or less over โ“ ๐Ÿ™„

    It’s a no brainer unless that person had to move to Spain or was a gambler, and there was too much of that before, which caught 1000’s out : ๐Ÿ™„

  • #110721
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Be Warned! The Timeshare sharks are back on the Costas again ๐Ÿ˜ก

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/holidays/article-2175013/Return-Costa-property-sharks-flogging-timeshares-youll-use-villas-planning-permissions.html

    Article also says there are 300,000 homes that do not have planning permission ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111010
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Be Warned! The Timeshare sharks are back on the Costas again ๐Ÿ˜ก

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/holidays/article-2175013/Return-Costa-property-sharks-flogging-timeshares-youll-use-villas-planning-permissions.html

    Article also says there are 300,000 homes that do not have planning permission ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111045
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Due to the Spanish Government’s tax increase for travellers at airports, our favourite airline Ryanair has now decided to scrap 11 routes out of Madrid and 4 out of Barcelona, presumably this will now mean increased air fares (on top of the new taxes) to these destinations and generally to Spain if other airlines follow suit.

    Something to consider if thinking of buying a holiday home in Spain, costs of going to and fro, so choose your area carefully ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111727
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    Jake, with your profound knowledge of foreign property markets, I would be interested in your opinions of the ’10 reasons not to buy a property in Spain’ at the beginning of this topic, presumably you saw this when it was first posted? Do you agree or disagree with any of them? Which are relevant or not?

    This came from the Eye on Spain website ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111749
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    @angie wrote:

    Due to the Spanish Government’s tax increase for travellers at airports, our favourite airline Ryanair has now decided to scrap 11 routes out of Madrid and 4 out of Barcelona, presumably this will now mean increased air fares (on top of the new taxes) to these destinations and generally to Spain if other airlines follow suit.

    Something to consider if thinking of buying a holiday home in Spain, costs of going to and fro, so choose your area carefully ๐Ÿ™„

    The ongoing increased cost of flights plus the increase in the cost of living in Spain were some of the reasons we decided to finally settle for what we could get for our apartment on the Costa Blanca and get out of the property market – that plus the situation in Spain and the thought that property prices would continue to drop much further, we decided it was best to get out as we had already decided not to move over to Spain permanently and it was unaffordable to keep two properties going (one in Spain and one in the UK) with the cost of living in the UK too rising year on year.

  • #111763
    Profile photo of peterhun
    peterhun
    Participant

    JWhite, thats a smart move.

    The WSJ has an article saying the pound is over valued, now that its obvious that deficit reduction isn’t possible/happening and the country is in another recession. London could be badly hit if the ‘safe haven’ status of the UK disappears, house prices fall and inflation rises with import prices due to a falling Pound.

    Bailing out of Spain before its gets even worse; definitely a smart move.

  • #111805
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    This time I agree with you on your last sentence peterhun about ‘bailing out of Spain before it gets worse’ being a smart move ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I can’t see airfares coming down for some while now unless APD is removed in the UK which there is a petition with sufficient signatures for the UK Gov’t to now act. So the cost of maintaining and visiting a 2nd home abroad several times yearly, plus increased taxes now makes it all look too expensive, I would expect more properties to be put up for sale too. ๐Ÿ™„

  • #111814
    Profile photo of Igurisu
    Igurisu
    Participant

    Another point of view from me (reasons not to buy a home in Spain).

    My wife and I have long planned to buy a place in Spain as a semi retirement home, 6 months in Spain and 6 months in UK. Now I’m in the position in being gifted my fathers apartment and as such have had to look at all the charges involved.

    What we have come to realise is that our original plan was probably not the best idea financially, the theory was, it would be cheaper than renting if we had our own place. Now when I look at the upkeep for the apartment (even when gifted so no capital investment), its not really much cheaper, if at all than renting.

    Last year we went to spain twice for two one week breaks, once to Tenerife and once to Valencia. Each time we paid โ‚ฌ150 for apartment rental for the week. Given that our approximate annual costs for running the apartment are around โ‚ฌ1500, that would equal 10 weeks apartment rental. We’re not retired yet so we don’t actually have 10 weeks holiday per year, the most we can usually take is 6 weeks. Looking at this from a purely financial point of view it would actually cost us โ‚ฌ250 per week if we used the apartment 6 weeks per year (1500/6). I’ve not included flight prices in the sums as they are pretty much the same whether we go north/south/canaries or balerics.

    I realise its a moving target, rental prices may increase if the market improves. But, without even going into the cost of actually spending capital on an apartment it doesn’t look to make sense financially. If we then start to add in the cost of purchasing a property and trying to depreciate that over a 10 or 15 year period (its not being bought as an investment), then I really don’t think it makes any sense at all.

    The sums change round a bit if I consider it when we are retired, but then the rentals also seem to become cheaper when renting for a 4 or 5 month period. So I’m stil not convinced even then it would make sense financially. The key change factor is depreciating a property value over the number of years we would own it. Of course it would not be worthless, but it might be a bit foolish to count it as an asset.

  • #111819
    Profile photo of Chopera
    Chopera
    Participant

    Igurisu, I think the sums only start to add up if you rent the place out during peak season, but even then you need to be getting a good income to make it financially worthwhile. If you can buy somewhere for say โ‚ฌ150k and rent it out for say โ‚ฌ700/week for 10 weeks during the peak season then you might find the rental income starts to cover your ownership expenses. That doesn’t necessarily make it suddenly become a great financial investment, but it might tip the scales towards buying rather than renting.

  • #111822
    Profile photo of Igurisu
    Igurisu
    Participant

    Hi Chopera, we do not have any plan to rent out. Maybe I’m old fashioned but I don’t like the idea of somebody else living in my house ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #111828
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Neither do I after seeing the state some left my Daughters place. We happened to pop round to collect something inbetween rentals at my Daughters. It was before the cleaners went in. There were 8 smelly bin bags on the drive. Bottles and glasses round the pool. Lots of cigarette ends just stubbed out on a brick fireplace, a broken table lamp, sun tan marks on the sofas ๐Ÿ‘ฟ If you rent there has to be a lot factured into the price for repairs and replacements, needs lots spending each year unless you are very lucky to get good tenants.

  • #111856
    Profile photo of Anonymous
    Anonymous
    Participant

    A percentage of rental clients will damage your faith in mankind. Based on them alone I would never want to rent out my own home, if I could afford not to.

    But a property that is built and furnished specifically as a holiday-rental is a different story. It is possible to design, build and furnish property so that it is much easier to maintain and keep clean, even with the worst clients. It requires thought to specify it, and I’ve seen very few good examples in Spain. Then again, nothing was built with any thought during the boom.

    But that is the way to go if you want a rental investment, though not a holiday home.

  • #111867
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    Yes I agree, renting is ok for a place you are never going to use and not get personal about. Although Rivhard Branson doesn’t seem to have a problem with necker Island :mrgreen:

  • #111874
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    I expect bookings were down on Necker after it recently burnt down with all of Branson’s totties running around starkers ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #111881
    Profile photo of katy
    katy
    Spectator

    There seems to be more than one property. Harry and his chums were there the week before Vegas and Branson was speaking on Skype from there this week. ๐Ÿ˜†

  • #111887
    Profile photo of angie
    angie
    Spectator

    It was the primary residence called The Great House on Necker that burnt down.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-202886 … -fire.html

    Kate Winslet has never been the same since and now in therapy. The thought of a naked Branson running with such a small pinky and Harry the twitch Redknapp on the same island sends shivers down me spine. His Bunga Bungas there are supposed to rival Silvios in Italy. ๐Ÿ˜†

    Branson is now throwing his toys out of his pram because Virgin Trains didn’t get the renewal of a rail franchise, a spoilt brat if ever there was one despite his entrepreneurial ventures. ๐Ÿ˜ก

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